Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Joe H on November 27, 2007, 10:20:23 pm
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I have a problem!
Yesterday morning, Monday, I did a stairs, landing and bedroom. Carpet had a smallish berber type pile, pale colour.
I vac'd, prespray with Prochem Pure Clean at correct dilution, agitated, dwell whilst set up machine (probably 15 min), then extracted with water only, moderately warm.
Carpet smelt like a damp dog when finished and looked OK. (burn test to me indicates wool content as the strand left a crumbly end bit but it did float).
Last night customer rang to say she was not happy as at top of stairs 3 small black marks had appeared and would I go back to sort.
In an attempt to save ringing me and me having a journey back, she said she had used 1001 but it had not altered it.
I said I appreciate the thought but I would much prefer if she had not done anything except phone me.
This afternoon I go and yes there are 3 black marks about the size of a 5p or smaller just at top of stairs in front of airing cupboard.
I tried a few things to shift the marks - Tex Fabric & Fibre Rinse, Envirodri Spot Remover, Zip It, Charley Spotter, not at the same time obviously, and with luke warm water rinses as well as towel padding.
Marks still there but might be fainter when dry.
She has already asked the question re my insurance as she says she is "fussy and its got to be right and I dont see it being right".
I have offered to go back again if not correct
BUT
I have said that using 1001 may have contributed to the fact the marks will not move. She was not impressed with that. "We got you in as a professional and the marks were not there before you came".
To which I said why didnt you call "the professional" back to rectify instead of trying to clean it with a £1 bottle of something.
I can see this one getting "messy".
Any one any ideas.
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Joe
I don't at this stage have any realistic idea of what might have happened, if anything, but I'm curious as to whether you pulled up any matter when you spotted the affected area on your return ? An indictation here may help others contribute.
Regards
Pete (JS2)
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Good point, missed that bit.
Used white towel and no removal of any significance.
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We all get em Joe, feel for yer.
Are you sure the spots were not there originally (disguised by soil)? The only thing I can think of is something wicking back up, but you should explain that you cant be responsible for for a stain that they have caused then resurfacing.
To be honest though in this case, I think most of us would have returned to have a look like you have. I probably would have used a cfr handtool to prevent the lower section of the fibre (and backing) from getting wet so it wouldnt happen twice. Its quite difficult trying to offer advice on using more products as you have tried multiple anyway. You may still get some result from gel spotter and rinse.
Lastly, I cant see that she has a case for an insurance claim as you havent actually damaged the carpet.
Kev
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Hi Joe
It could be oily stains which has wicked up so a solvent based spotter would be best ,or if they maybe carbon based spots ,ultrapac renovate could be an answer .Good luck
Mark
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Joe
Sounds to me like the marks were already indelibly present and exposed by the cleaned up carpet. I can't imagine the cleaning process would produce one or two small localised marks, unless these were caused by some heavy impression by your equipment or a serious spillage (all very unlikely without your knowledge). I expect some members will make the essential point regarding carrying out a thorough pre-inspection. I hope a solution is found to ease any anxiety !
Regards
Pete (JS2)
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No I dont think the spots were there before hand - it is a paleish carpet and I did have a good look at the area because of the possibility of draught mark under the airing cupboard door (very faint anyway).
Thanks for the other comments
What effect 1001 she used? Any ideas based on facts.
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p.s.
Get some forms printed up if you can with your survey on the front and your terms on the back and get them to sign it at quotation stage. If they are a bit tense about it simply say that 'you are agreeing to the survey only and points mentioned'. This way you are completely covered if it gets nasty. This is what we do (just in case).
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Did a job for 1001 (WD-40) on Monday with a similar complaint. Trouble was the carpet was soooooooo manked it was ridiculous. They basically chanced their arm for a free clean for xmas, and they got it.
I cant see any cleaner from the shops helping whatsoever (we all know this), so you could re-enforce this aspect - that it has hindered it completely, and that if she didnt use it you would probably have got it out ;)
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Joe, try a little bit of Citrus Gel, rinse well afterwards.
Regards
s ;)
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Already mentioned this Spencer ;) By the way, nice websites, very pro.
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But twice mentioned is to emphasise the point.
Thanks lads.
She'll be on the phone tomorrow no doubt.
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Could be draught marking been pulled through underlay and wicking when carpet dried out. Can be a problem next to airing cupboards due to thermal air currents.
Something like Champion, Ultrapac, Zap It might work.
If it doesn't I would bluff it out as she has messed with it before giving you the chance to rectify.
Worst scenario I would get someone to re-tuft it. Shouldn't be hard or expensive if they are just small marks. Tufts can be taken from edge of carpet or under stair folds.
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hi
this may not be the case, but some carpet fitters use marker pens on backing, when cutting carpet up for hsl could this have been wicked up threw backing just a thought i would uplift and see whats under the area
darren
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Thanks John.
I have Ultrapac and Zap It (used Charley Spotter instead of Zap It today).
Not heared of re-tufting, interesting.
Do most carpet fitters do that?
Darren - thats a possibility, but I dont see how she is going to let me lift the carpet - she is set in her mind nothing I do is going to shift it to her satisfaction (shes said so).
I'm on a loser I think but not giving up yet.
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Hi Joe,
If you think shes intent on having a claim against you (why else would she mention your insurance) say she invalidated a claim attempting removal herself before consulting or calling you back and she has set the stain beyond removal.
Play her at her own game!
All the best,
Jason.
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just explain you need to uplift, so you can clean from the back as well as the face cloth, as it is a stain thats been caused by them and as wicked back, on cleaning.
she cant refuse you trying to solve the problem and has to let you try to rectify it.
if she lets you i really hope theres pen there, shes still not going to be happy, but your of the hook
good luck
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Jason, I think that is my only salvation here. She was honest enough to say she used 1001 - as long as she doesnt go into denial.
and thanks for your comments Darren.
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If it was anything to do with your cleaning chemicals then more of the carpet would be marked ?
If you have to then pass it onto your insurance.
Explain to your insurance company that its not your fault.
Insurance companys do not pay out just because someone makes a claim.
They will fight your corner for you and refuse to pay.
Let her fight it out with the insurance company ;)
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Thanks Chris.
I suppose if she insists on going that road thro insurance I can only state the facts and leave it with them. Just my excess is quite high (£500) and replacing carpet is about 6 sq yd (top of stairs 3 x 2 say)
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Hi
Get onto Woolsafe or if your a member NCCA as she will listen to someone that is independent.
You might have to put your hand in your pocket for them to help but its worth it to keep your reputation.
don't worry. these can be sorted without spending large amount of money. you only have to look how insurance companies handle this type of problem. they send out a bottle of spotter first, before they send anyone around. so stay cool.
BTW if she has touched it after you its now her responsibility, (but don't tell yet)
respectfully
Ian Harper
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Joe, its usually cleaners that do re-tufting rather than fitters. I know Paul King does it but he's too far away. Also a number of Servicemaster franchises used to offer this service. You could also contact Independent Inspections who are bound to have someone on their books in your area.
Hope it doesn't come to that, personally I wouldn't be too concerned.
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John - I have always said its as easy to do things right as it is to do them wrong. But I am a bit of a worrier, always have been.
I always worry what will I do when I have spent my last million £. ;)
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Insurance companys do not pay out just because someone makes a claim.
They will fight your corner for you and refuse to pay.
Let her fight it out with the insurance company ;)
Be careful with this one. We did exactly that on the domestic cleaning side for a claim we were sure they would not pay as it was not cleaners fault. They did - paid £2000 directly to the complainant without advising us.
On top of all the advice here, any chance the customer has moved furniture and laid, for instance, oily castors on the carpet, and is now trying to get you to pay for her mistake? Is there a pattern?
Does sound like wicking up of some sort though.
If the marks won't go, your strongest defence will be the fact that they were not there when you left and the fact that she has made the marks permanent. Be adamant about this.
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Hi Joe
Almost certainly something wicking up
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As has been advised be careful, the more you attempt the more it becomes your problem.
If she was an amenable customer I would try various solvents , dip a cotton bud in and see if you are getting dye transfer.
Start with white spirit, then acetone and then isopropanol.
Cheers
Doug
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It could be something been spilled from a container in the airing cupboard, people keep all sorts in there. Also what colour hair has she got ? Has she dyed it then its dripped onto carpet when she went to get a towel out of airing cupboard.
Mike
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Thanks for the website comments Kev.
S :)
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I think we all need to be careful and carry out detailed inspections of the room before we start work #
I cleaned a Suite the other day and had an allegation of creating a large water mark on a Carpet at the oposite end of the room to where I was working.
Problem was I was left in house on my on so customer did not witness where I was working etc.
Thankfully it all got resolved but caused a bit of worry
Although I inspected Suite I did not inspect all of the carpet as I was not working on it and had protected area I was working in.
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Joe, have you thought of just replacing the carpet for her? I am not saying you should by any means but if it is only 6 square yards it would be cheeper to do this than to faff about with numerous trips to try and clean it out. You will get more referrals from replacing it for her than you will by cleaning it.
Oh and sit down for a little while and learn to re-tuft and re-weave. More money to be "made" by that than there ever is in cleaning.
Best, Dave.
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Got the inevitable phone call today!
She contacted her house insurance but as soon as she mentioned a tradesman they would not go for it on her insurance.
They will however help her with legal advice.
They advise her now to insist on having the whole stairs and landing replaced because only having the landing done will make the stairs look odd.
The issue is now not the spots which are still there, albeit not as pronounced, but the "fluffing" up in that area, started with her using 1001.
So her claim stands at around £400.
Just taken 2 bookings this afternoon both of which quoted higher then 24 hours ago!
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Have a read through your own insurance policy.
You may have free legal advice included?
They can then tell you the right way to proceed.
regards
Chris
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Thanks everyone for the support.
Times like this when you feel a bit down its good to have pick me ups.
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She actually appears to be a very nice lady.
Soon as I arrived on Monday it was "would you like a cup of tea"
"could I have a cold drink please"
and there was a glass of coke and a plate with half a dozen ginger biccys.
Actually she seems too nice, and too genned up on things relating to carpets - I just wonder at times whether I have been set up, but can't prove it!
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Smiling sweetly as she takes you to the cleaners. Not my ex wife is it ;D
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We do a lot of cleanups for a certain utilities company involving soot. Sometimes Champion is the only thing that will shift it. Even on fine wool carpets we've never had a problem. Its only on for a few minutes before being rinsed off.
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Joe
know how these things can get really get you down mate. Many years ago I handled/negotiated PL, EL and product liability claims for Eagle Star (now Zurich).
Firstly you need to understand that your insurers always take the view based on economics. ie. if they feel its worth settling as its a cheaper option (based on probability) they will and you have no say so in the matter (it will be in your T & Cs some where).
Secondly (and more to the point) the onus is on her to demonstrate that on the balance of probablity (not beyond reasonable doubt as this is criminal law) that you have caused the damage. On the face of it she probably feels that she certainly can but remember that she does'nt know what you know.
I don't I know as much as most on here but I know this. This is probably a case of something wicking up and no "right minded thinking person" when they know the facts would put the blame at your feet (and this is exactly how a common law based court would look at it) as you cannot possible "foresee" this potential problem. Stand your ground son as I know more about this than I do CC'ing.
Give me a bell if you want more detail mate
Pete
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Thanks Pete.
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Joe
if it's a dark spot on light carpet, try using a reducing agent, and watch the spot disappear
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Joe,
Do you consider you did anything wrong.?
The spots were not obvious when you started?
In my opinion you are not liable.
Although I have never put in a claim when I had my problem a respected member of this industry told me that
The Insurance assor will look at the carpet, ask what procedures you used etc and if you did everything by the book you would not be liable and there would be no claim. How long in industry training etc also counts in your favour.
How old is carpet
Because policies do not pay out new for old so it takes into account wear value etc
Only applies if you are covered for treatment risk and your essess is less than £400
Our you sure you cannot solve problem, although I did not think I had caused the problem I was able to solve problem, and saved a load of hazzle
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Joe
If you manage to remove the spots ,carefully go over the fuzzing with a pair of hair clippers,it will really improve the result.
mark
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We do a lot of cleanups for a certain utilities company involving soot. Sometimes Champion is the only thing that will shift it. Even on fine wool carpets we've never had a problem. Its only on for a few minutes before being rinsed off.
Like I said John, I don't know much compared with most others on here. I've used Champion for a number of years and no way would I use it on a wool carpet. But if you say it's ok and after all you're the distributor then who am I to argue.
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Gary, I was only advocating using it for this specific problem as it can work when other methods have failed. As I said we have used it extensively along with Ultrapac on very serious soot clean-ups including recently on a 10 year old light fawn genuine Wilton (photo) and I really expected to have to right off the carpet but it came up pristine. The soot had been vacuumed with a Dyson and forced into the wool fibres with the roatating brush.
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yes champion is the do or die choice, but one I like to have around as often you get to live,
ps I'd try a bit of solvent on those marks sound oily to me, bid it feel a bit oily ?
Personal choice would be Chemspec POG along with formula 90 about the only two things they haven't reformulated in their range and knacked in the process
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That clean bit was done using a small Karcher spotting machine just to see if it would shift. After cleaning with the truck mount it was finished with fibre & fabric rinse. Looked better than a normal clean.
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Could they be small filtereation holes from when the carpet was fiyyed with a knee kicker? it does sound as though it is some filteration soiling.
Shaun
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Ive read this story with interest on here and on Cleantalk.
Would like to know final outcome
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Quite at the moment Ian.
She is getting a quote for all the carpet to be replaced, even though the landing piece ends at the bottom of the top riser. She is sending that to me to pay!
On the basis she is not happy I have offered her a refund of the clean (£55) but she has refused.
Dont know whether to contact a solicitor or my insurance broker/company.
How would you people handle it?
Will keep informed.
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Personally I would fight it all the way. I would have a word with a solicitor first which should be free. Contact business link who should be able to put you in touch with someone who can answer the question.
As mentioned earlier, sometimes insurance companies just pay up which is going to cost you.
I would think you will need to put in writing that the cleaning process did not cause the marks but highlighted a problem which was already present. Consequent action by yourself using an unsuitable cleaning agent has prevented us rectifying the situation to your satisfaction.
It may be prudent to include this item on your future terms & conditions. It is standard in mentioning "The cleaning process may highlight stains and other problems which although not visible have been dormant in the carpet" we can accept no responsibilty should this occur but will endeavour to rectify any problems if possible.
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John's absolutely right Joe, also why doesnt she get it? If it went to insurance I'm sure they would only replace the landing. Lets say for instance she had the same carpet throughout upstairs with no edging strips under each doorway - would she expect the whole floor to be replaced? Would the insurance replace it all? NO, only the one room or area involved thats for sure.
If you need some terms & conditions Joe let me know and I'll send it over in word.
Cheers
Kev
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I am not going to give in, thats for sure.
What I am doing is taking in all the words of advice I can get from here and just put it together what I hope is a logical, sound reply.
So keep them coming. The more that comes forward the more each of us will benefit.
Take you up on the offer you made Kev - very kind of you
dirtycarpets@warringtoncarpetcleaning.co.uk
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Joe,
just to recap, what method have you tried to remove the marks? Did you rinse extract after applying stain removers.
I'm suprised that the marks have not come out unless something has dyed the carpet.
I would try using Prochem Citrus Gel, rinse extract. If that did not work try using rust remover as this can also remove unknown black marks.
I would make sure you can't remove the marks b4 going down another route.
I once went to clean some carpets, one was a bedroom carpet belonging to a 7 year old boy.
The next day custy rings to say a turquos stain has come up over night :o...she was implying it was my problem. Went next day to see a mark that was not there b4 I cleaned which I could not get out!
As it turned out, little Jonny went to play on his play station after cleaning with a packet of turquois polo's...one went on the damp carpet and the dye in the sweet had permanantly marked the carpet.
John
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Joe
If you are a member of the NCCA they have a free legal helpline which could help.
Mark
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Joe
You've got mail.
Kev
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Joe
No more to say from me, but stick to your guns ! This isn't anything you've done so why should you fork out, even partially for it ? Just think how many people might try and blame other tradesmen, and succeed, for latent problems - car related work perhaps - and you don't really hear of it.
Regards
Pete (JS2)
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To John Milnes - when I returned the next day I tried Tex Fabric & Fibre Rinse, Envirodri Spot Remover, Zip It, Charley Spotter, - rinse extraction with warm water after each.
She rang again the next day to say "no difference, no need to bother trying anything else as what you tried has not moved it, and its fluffed up now."
Did not do any rubbing, had a white towel, doubled, and pressing down.
Thank you everyone else.
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Joe,
Hope it works out for you, but my 10pennuth is that if she claims off you, you have an excess and your Ins Co will only pay out less 'wear and tear' our policies do not replace new for old.
If she wants to claim and it is proved just volunteer to pay her excess, but I think a Loss Adjuster would come down on your side because it wasnt there before.
Best of luck
Murky
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Long time seen you seen this post.
All been quiet from the customer but yesterday 13th Feb, I received a letter from her solicitor claiming cost of new carpet (£260) plus what I charged her for the clean (£55).
First time ever, but Monday I am booked in to see a solicitor.
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Hi
She cant have it both ways the £55 for the clean is your,as if you hadn't clean it she couldn't claim off you.
The carpet she had before you cleaned it is a second hand carpet, why should you pay for a new one.
I would offer 1/2 the price of the new carpet whilst accepting no liability or see you in court.
These people need a kick up the arse.
Dave
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Hi Joe
I don't see how she has got a leg to stand on now that she has tried to treat the spots herself.I would turn the situation around though a solicitors letter saying that " it appears the customer has set the stain but you are still willing to have another go at improving the damaged area because of your reputation as a responsible company, even though the circumstances that have been created are not you fault" which would be a fair offer on your part.
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she wants £315 off you, not a great deal of money.
is it really worth the hassle its creating?....... pay it then move on.
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I think maybe you are the only one who has said that Mike.
Interesting though, but one I cant get my head around it just like that.
Couple years ago a domestic cleaner in my employ spilt some Flash on a carpet.
No problem, went to see, passed on to insurance and I paid £500 excess on a £1200 replacement.
but that was because I was to blame.
If there was even a 20% chance that the proceedures I used on this particular carpet was the root cause of the problem I would hold my hands up and pay up.
Not as if the marks were there when I left. So who knows whats gone on.
I shall seek the advice on Monday of the solicitor and take it from there.
The solicitor is obviously going to pump me for facts, and I will listen to her comments and take it from there.
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I can see why you are taking the course of action you've chosen, but I always look at it the way I would proceed if it was me, and I don't deal with stress & hassle easily, I'd lose a lot of sleep over something like this.
I'd want it to end this trouble as quick as possible.
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If you pay out you are basically admitting you have done something wrong and it will not do your reputation any good at all. Firstly you need to demand you want to have a look at the marks, lift the carpet and look at the backing see if you have black lines running across the carpet backing where the floor boards join, if so the fitter has used the wrong underlay on fitting , and there is no way you were to know before the clean.
If they are filtration marks which have wicked through on cleaning then ultrapac renovate should work.
In cant understand why she has tried to solve the problem herself with the 1001 then when this failed she is trying to pass the book.
Do you have legal cover on your insurance maybe its worth checking out. Good luck.
Mark
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Don''t pay up, as a matter of principle you have to see this out.
I've got a few court claims going on at the moment regarding my other business, one is for only £120, it has cost me more in time than this, but I do know it has cost them more too, which makes me happy :). It's a matter of principle.
I got the defence yesterday from 2 of the companies, can't wait to see them in court.
From what I have read from Joe on here he seems a good bloke, he has also gone out of his way to do everything possible to help this woman. She isn't going to be singing his praises to anyone anyway, so why should he fork out for a new carpet.
Stick it out Joe and best of luck. It's going to happen to all of us at some point I suppose, at worst you can be our Guinea Pig ;D
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Perhaps it would be of some comfort, or concern, to know from personal experience how likely a case of this sort is to succeed in damages actually being awarded. It sounds increasingly likely that anyone can bring an alledged claim and stand a realistic chance of winning.
Pete (JS2)
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Thanks for all your comment lads, very encouraging.
JS2 - I am well aware that there is a strong chance of damages being awarded.
Judges are human beings in a state of imperfection, thats why innocent people get imprisoned and why guilty ones go scot free.
I have taken everything on board, I will see the solicitor on Monday morning - might even take some of the comment posted on here and CleanTalk to help her make her recommendations......
and I will keep you all posted because like Gary.J commented - we can all learn from each other sexperiances.