Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Davew on November 24, 2007, 08:13:19 pm
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Looking for something else and i spotted this:
http://www.concept2o-franchise.co.uk/venture.htm
Now obviously this would be a delicate point on this particular forum (Express Cleaning) but this is the first one i have come accross that shows the figures. I was rather shocked at the expense. What people would this be aimed at? I know it's not the only franchise about, so i'm not having a go at Concept2o as such but the whole idea of franchising in this trade seems a little odd - or is it just me?
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Its not odd really ??? ???.
There are some people that run successful franchisees on here.
The C 2o one is a little OTT in my opinion.
Just think for a bit on the whole deal that you could offer
if you had 100's of customers and you were just getting more and more
week by week and you did not want to employ -the potential is great !!
I personally am not in that position yet - as I employ staff but I have a franchise contract in my possession that will be put to use one day.
Just need 1000 more customers ;D ;D ;D
Russ
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Looking for something else and i spotted this:
http://www.concept2o-franchise.co.uk/venture.htm
the whole idea of franchising in this trade seems a little odd - or is it just me?
i thought that about grass cutting but jim of ~"jims mowing" seems to have managed to sell alot of lawn mowers with van included for a hell of a good return!!!
by the way i would like 2 vehicles on the road if one ONLY earns £96,000 a year!!!!!
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They do supply you with some work so i suppose, you are paying for some doorknockers to drum up around three to four hundred pounds a month to cover payments. It just seems a huge outlay if you have no guarantee of work. To pull in 96k you will need some big commercial jobs. Nice picture of there van their by the way.
I did drive up and look at their van in the Malverns earlier this year but they wern't into franchising then. Nice people. I'm just interested in other peoples views on franchising.
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I looked into a locksmith franchise once and that had an initial fee of over 20k plus the company creamed off a percentage of every job you did including all the work you found yourself. They also had a say in the kind of work you did, so if they wanted you to fit burglar alarms instead thats what you had to do. :(
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I've looked at franchises too. Subway- pizza express-signs express-dominoes.
This concept02 looks good too, as window cleaners we all know the business works, our reservation is you can do the same thing for nothing.
If a family member asked me I would say do it.
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The whole idea of franchising to me is to be able to use a "household" name, and fool proof business plan.
e.g. McDonalds, Burgerking and the like.
I really cant see the point in investing tens of thousands of pounds in something thats not nationally known.
I've been asked by some of my customers if my business is franchised!!
For £30k +, i could make enough mistakes, and still get enough customers to have a successful business, a new van, van based system and enough to go and get my new harley davidson ;D
Anyone knows how to lease a shop, cook a burger and put it in a bun with some cheese and sauce, but if it has the golden arches on it, all the hard work has been done and you are guaranteed custom from the minute you open!
Just my honest opinion!!!
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Well you couldn't be more wrong Mick.
To get a mcdee franchise, forget the money that could be anything from 750,000 to 5 mill. They won't let you do this unless you attend hamburger university for 18 months. So so much for anyone knows how to etc.....
I know that you have been a very succesful mentor to a couple on here and there is some truth in what you say. People ask me if i'm a franchise too but i'm only just starting to 'get it' in terms of cutting through this business like a knife through butter.
I read posts on here that say I will save and get a trolley next year and hope to have a van mount in the next five. That's the difference. In five years these people will have three vans on the road!
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Are Concept2o affiliated to the BFA ( British Franchise Association)?
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Mr Solubility how easy would it be to pick up enough work to cover the costs and make a good living? I reckon you would need £4000 worth of work a year just to pay your loan then you would need say another £25k of work minimum on top of that just to scrape by? So a newbie will struggle to get going unless he forks out even more to buy a round. So who would a package like this be aimed at?
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I agree with you about you have to be "chosen" as a franchise.
I know a Mcd franchisee, and also a Wimpey Franchisee, who started in the early 80's and is now minted!!!
But the point im trying to say is, if a franchise is worth is weight, you will be "chosen" cos it is a successful operation and thats why ppl do pay up to and over a million for a franchise contract, cos you are buying into a world known brand.
But i really cant see what a window cleaning franchise can offer, what you cant find on here.
I found everything i needed on here, and after 2 yrs am doing very well.
There is obviously a market for franchising, but i think it is for those who want there hands held all the way.
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I used to read stephen king books and often wondered what he mean't when he'd say ' they caught a burger at a McDonald drive thru'.
When I became aware of the first Mcdonalds in (i think) the early eigthies I was very intereseted. My sister knew someone who was going to have the franchise at fosse park which is near leicester. It was supposed to cost 2 million and then they would have to pay rent etc. How we laughted, 2 mill, for something anybody could do, that had to be the definition of stupid.
Then to make matters worse when it opened my sister went to try it. I asked how it was. Quite dear, with her two kids a drink and a small burger each was over eight pounds. But worse than this, there was no plate you ate it on the table and there was no knife and fork you ate it with your hands. Summary, it was expensive and a bit basic. I was very shocked. Now I think it's normal and love it.
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jesus christ read those figures !!!!! 34k outlay !!!!!! you would have to be mad/desperate/both to lay out that kind of money for what is basically just a round ok you get a nice van uniform etc but how long to pay it off and as for potential earning does that really say 96k or is my one good eye playing me up :o :o :o :o
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good god i have just gone through that website thats 2k aweek for 48 wks to do that if you want decent hols do they give you the work or what?? who prices new customers??? what am i doing wrong if a novice can make 96k a year from one van????? :o :o :o how much do you pay back a month? how do they adjust prices for different parts of uk?
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i reckon they are using the figure based on 2 people in 1 van which would equal (for arguments sake, but not the general reality) £1K per week per person.
This figure is achievable for many wfp working a 40 hour week at £25 p/h.
But how many work 40 hours per week just cleaning windows? Especially in winter months.
And unless you've got a compressed round which allows you to work these hours, from the beginning, how long would it take to pick up enough compressed work which would exceed this amount.
Of course no one can say it is not possible, but how likely could it be?
I've gotta say though that if i was spending £34k or whatever, i would graft my socks off to make it work. And would have a good punt at that figure or somewhere close to it.
Alas, i have other things i enjoy doing with my life to put all my eggs in 1 basket.
Or should that be 'casket.'
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Two big MacDonalds have closed down near me recently. The one in Pinner and the one in Kingsbury have both gone. There is no such thing as a sure bet.
When you franchise you pay to use their NAME nothing else. If the name is not known to the general public its arguable what you are really getting for your money.
Another Window Cleaning franchise suggested that you didn't have to get your own hands wet. You would sit back in your office directing operations while your "crew" did all the graft. This sounds like a recipe for disaster for someone who doesn't know the business. It can be done and it is done but the people who do it are tough enough to dominate the situation and keep things under control.
To earn the sort of money required to keep an outfit like this on the road requires a lots of top quality accounts. Is that sort of work just sitting around begging? I don't think so. Pricing work like that is mega difficult. You have to go low to beat the competition but still make a profit. No easy thing in this competitive world.
Also, that much work would be spread out over a very large area. How do you include travel time in the equation? Costs still have to be met. A four hour job with three hours travel is a seven hour job. And what can you do with the odd hour- nothing. So you end up paying a days costs plus fuel to do a four hour job. This is the true reality of business. Taking money is comparatively easy, keeping hold of it is another story.
The only good thing I can see is that they are driving up prices. The canvassers have been round our area quoting £35 for a three bed semi. I don't think they got many takers, if any. So when I quote £14 they jump at it.
I think it is a fatal mistake to imagine they can build and sustain a business with those prices. If I see a franchise van working in my area ( and to date I haven't) I would be knocking on that door the following day offering my services for less.
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you are always good value on a sunday morning vince ;D
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Its called a hang over!
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You are getting a brand new van, ro set up, hot wash if you want and poles. Also some training too. As you are leasing there are tax benefits too. If i was very successful and wanted a new van then i would like to purchase a Concept 2o but by that point i wouldn't want a franchise because i would have the round etc already. So does this mean that a franchise is aimed at newcomers to the trade and if so would they have to be gullable? Just like to know if anyone has bought into a franchise and hear their views.
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You summed it all up pretty well there. What experienced window cleaner is going to take out a franchise?
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I think thats a good point Vince. There is a person new to Window cleaning in my area and he has bought a franchise off of Stayclean. If you look at their site it does give the figures. I think its 15k to start and then there are obviously the ongoing costs.
Also my personal opinion but Staclean suggests that the windows Stayclean? So people may assume a lesser frequency? ;D
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Does the vehicle come with Stayclean? looks unlikely. I think the earnings forecasts are very misleading too.
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I dont know. I think it does but on what kind of deal I dont know. It is something I would not even entertain.
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The only way a business like ours works is based on having a customer database.
Forget the flashy vans/systems they will not make the business work from day 1 you have to have customers.
That is why when I eventually go down the franchise route (and I will )
I will be providing the customers from day 1.
That is an instant business /franchise.
All this stuff on vans/systems is just a lead into the market.
A good used van and good DIY system is not going to cost ££££'s
like some are quoting.
I intend to agree a reasonable royalty fee from the work done by my franchisees
and almost retire gracefully ;D ;D ;D
Russ
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So what are your franchisees actually going to get for their money? Assuming they will be paying a percentage of their takings to you for the rest of their life it would have to be something pretty good.
Nice work if you can get it, don't get me wrong I am not knocking the idea. I just think you will only attract plonkers.
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IMO it can work, the foundations have to be right, people saying that a nice van ect would not work must be mad, if you franchise you want them to follow ytour business plan, and a old beaten up van and a cheap diy system is not going to give the right image, this is IMO you also have to have a brandable name. ;)
I would never say never to doing this myself.
And people that are seriously thinking of doing this would not write anything about it on here as that would be a very unwise thing to do.
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Think about it
An instant profitable business.
There is obviously a fee to buy the franchise
but very affordable.
If I had a 'plonker' as you put it come along
I would not sell it to him.
Its a two way thing I have to be happy and so does he/she.
It is still my business /name/reputation so why would I take a plonker onboard.
I would not employ a 'plonker' (well knowingly anyway)
so why sell a franchise to one.
I am only putting my views across and accept some would differ.
But like I said our business is customer based and that is what I have. ;D ;D
This is part of my long term business plan and will not happen tomorrow though
Russ
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mr ww
why would it be unwise then ??? ???
All info.is readily available on the www.
We are not talking companies financial info. here
just discussing the concept of franchising a business
and who thinks it could work and who thinks not.
Russ
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Are Concept2o affiliated to the BFA ( British Franchise Association)?
No
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mr ww
why would it be unwise then ??? ???
All info.is readily available on the www.
We are not talking companies financial info. here
just discussing the concept of franchising a business
and who thinks it could work and who thinks not.
Russ
Unwise if a compnay was doing this, and placing it on here telling everyone what they were doing. thats what I mean when I say unwise.
Discussing concept, and if it would work or not is great.
I was just giving my opinion on my thoughts to this matter ;)
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Any business can be franchised. A franchise is just a business in a box and will never appeal to people who are allready involved in the type of business that is being franchised. Ask a landscaper why his business can't be franchised and he will give you a list of reasons, but there are many worldwide examples of successful landscape gardening franchises.
The big difference imo is in the people who start their own business's like everyone on here, they are not the type who need the services of a franchisor as they allready have the balls and neck required to go it alone. People who buy franchises generally want a business that can quickly replace the income they have had in their previous jobs. The statistics are supposed to show that most franchisees come from being employed.
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Over the years I have helped several people start up in window cleaning. How many stuck at it? None.
The drop out rate for window cleaners is phenominal. I am not sure if we are the clever ones who made a sucess of it or the stupid ones who never had the sense to take a hike.
However, anyone who feels they need to lean on someone else to get started is not likely to make a go of it in my opinion. Its a sort of natural selection.
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Any business can be franchised. A franchise is just a business in a box and will never appeal to people who are allready involved in the type of business that is being franchised. Ask a landscaper why his business can't be franchised and he will give you a list of reasons, but there are many worldwide examples of successful landscape gardening franchises.
The big difference imo is in the people who start their own business's like everyone on here, they are not the type who need the services of a franchisor as they allready have the balls and neck required to go it alone. People who buy franchises generally want a business that can quickly replace the income they have had in their previous jobs. The statistics are supposed to show that most franchisees come from being employed.
That is a very good post ;)
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I would be wary of buying a franchise in any business if the name was not well known to the public. I don't think a franchise can really offer much except that. I can't think of any window cleaning franchises that are household names.
With window cleaning a new van, top of the range wfp system, etc could all be bought much cheaper than the cost of the franchise. The difference in cost would probably then allow you to build a round up that suited you far better than something organised by the franchisor.
I just don't see any advantage.
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You summed it all up pretty well there. What experienced window cleaner is going to take out a franchise?
One of my blokes is just that. Two years experience as an employee with another window cleaning firm - liked the work, not the firm but didn't have the confidence to try to build up his own business from scratch. Now he has his own business turning over about £900/week. and he's been with us just over 6 months.
That answer any questions?
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:) :) :)
Nice and to the point as always Ian.
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I would be wary of buying a franchise in any business if the name was not well known to the public. I don't think a franchise can really offer much except that. I can't think of any window cleaning franchises that are household names.
With window cleaning a new van, top of the range wfp system, etc could all be bought much cheaper than the cost of the franchise. The difference in cost would probably then allow you to build a round up that suited you far better than something organised by the franchisor.
I just don't see any advantage.
No franchise starts as a well known brand name but that does not mean that people wont buy them.
The advantage imo is in national coverage. If I set up a wc franchise I would be targeting all of the national brands and all of the gov contracts. That would give me credibility with my potential franchisees and with the market place. I would be building my marketing on the same price nationwide the same quality service weather the customer was in bradford or cornwall, uniformed, trained, police checked and local operatives specialist H& S inspections etc, can you imagine the volume of work a two week TV add campaign along these lines would generate. That to me would be a hugh commercial advantage.
I know that there would be many difficulties but someone will do it and we will be competing with them sooner or later because that is the way of the global world. IMO
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It sounds like a 'chicken and egg' situation.
To be a national concern enough franchises have to be sold to make it such. Before enough franchises are sold, it isn't national coverage, so what distinguishes you from an equally professional local window cleaner?
There seems to be a north / south price divide judging by previous threads, that makes me think pricing the same in different areas of the country could be a recipe for disaster.
I am sure that national contracts are hotly contested, therefore possibly not the most profitable anyway.
I'm not convinced.
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bluez if you can think of a way to devise a pricing formula that works on a national level you should get a scholarship at oxbridge mate absolutely unworkable
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I am not in the U.K. so there maybe some complexities that I miss about your market but I am sure there are complexities in the U.S. market as well and window cleaning franchises are growing rapidily there.
Pricing structure:
€2.00 to €2.50 per window
Scotland - 22%
London + 15%
Cornwall -12%
etc
When someone does it they will not be too bothered if they get no customers in the arse end of newcastle because they cant get the price. Dominoes Pizza operate different price structures in Scotland and Ireland from The U.K. but that doesnt stop them being a well known brand. Some regions are really good for them and some are crap and the result is that re sale of stores in the bad areas sell cheaply etc.
The other way of doing it is that you pick a price say €15 per three bed semi but then locally you flood the market with discounts that bring the price down nearer to local levels.
Did someone mention a scolorship........
;D
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in your original post you said "building my marketing on the same price nationwide" adding or subtracting a certain percentage depending on the area means that there is no national price based on £10 for a three bed semi you would charge £7.50 in scotland and £11.50 in London so how is that a national price also i dont want to be pedantic but scotland is part of the uk and we use pounds sterling not euros so you wouldnt want a scholarship studying geography or international finance ;D
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I am relatively new to this business, but I did run a couple of small businesses before. I was never going to make a fortune in either, but both had similar operations available as a franchise. I looked into the costs of each one and compared the 'advantages'. I didn't find any. They were more expensive to set up, had ongoing costs, and offered little in the way of extra publicity. Guess which I chose?
However, I can see that franchises do work, the McDonalds model proves that, so maybe someone can prove me wrong.
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hi all i would just like to share my experience with you all. With being in the drainage industry for some time working for the local water authority i took the plunge and bought into a drainage franchise. I already knew a lot about drains and sewers and always wanted to work for myself. I got the promise of national accounts with people like Macdonals and Wetherspoon pub chain and thought i could never get that work on my own. After setting up we find out we are just on a big approved contractors list and had to canvass our own national accounts. A fellow franchisee and me both started and finished after a year and had both nearly lost our houses. Franchising is simple you do all the work they make all the money. I learned a lot and to never trust anyone in business but a least i learned not what to do and am now doing well with me windas.
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Clunk, that sounds like a bad experience. Glad to hear things are going well now.
I think this is a good example of spending a small fortune on a franchise, only to get little or no help in getting your business working as it should. Any body considering this style of business should remember the old saying buyer beware!
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I am not advocating franchising but I am saying that imo it is a model that will be an increasing part of the window cleaning industry in the future. The ones that are for sale at present have pricing structures that are national pretty much as I outlined earlier and I dont mind you being pedantic L.J. but I am very disapointed that I will not be getting my scolorship. ;)
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What percentage do you have to pay the franchise companies.
Dave
I looked into Snap-On a couple of years ago, with them you have to sign up for about £120'000 for the van, tools etc with very linited terratory.
They worked that they would give you enough to live on and they would take the rest until the £120'000 was paid off, there cut was that you sold there tools at there prices.
I told them i needed £500 a week, they said no chance , show us your bills, you can have £300.
Didnt seem viable at the time as a lot of garages were switching to mactools and every garage i spoke to were a bit annoyed with snap-ons new returns policy.
Dave
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I can see franchises working well if you have a corner of the market that no one else can touch or a branded product that can't be copied perhaps but window cleaning? I came into this trade to escape from my previous career. I have spent around £10,000 to set myself up wfp. I knew when i started there was little chance of recouping my expenditure but it was what i wanted. Now compare that with someone working trad and it looks like financial suicide. Both methods offer pretty much the same sevice but at vastly differing outlays to the operator.
A franchise to me is right at the top of that scale (huge investment) and not offering much to the consumer that is not there already. The only way to make money would be with large commercial contracts and i can't see the franchise company supplying many of those. So a newbie parts with thirty odd thousand pounds and immediately sinks unless he is very very lucky.
There is no way a van will pick up £90,000 in work in the first or second year at least.
Just my thoughts. :)
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hi all when i had my franchisle i was paying 12 % of turnover and they ended up only giving me one job in 3 weeks which was worth 60 quid. i had a choice either keep going or go bust when i told them i was having to quit they said oh u in breach of contract so wont get your money back. Some franchises are good dont get me wrong but some are taking a normal industry to franchise and ripping people off. With my area they just sold it on for 30 grand same as i paid. Only problem i had was had no spare cash to spend on solicitors to get me money back.
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get on the concept 2o or o2 or whatever website and find a local operator i counted 10 in total nationwide none in scotland now that dont seem like many i know of 10 window cleaners within 15 miles of me and i know them all by name never mind the ones i see around to wave at o2 / 2o hardly cornered the market have they or is the website out of date ;D ;D ;D