Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: james44 on November 20, 2007, 10:21:51 pm
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Right, I shall try and make this short
Been window cleaning for 4 years sold my customers on april this year because i was getting fed up with the customers complaining about the least little thing, i was using wfp and had been for 1 year out of the 4,
Up to going wfp i had no complaints at all, now i did a very good job and going back to a comment that squeeky made about customers dont like there windows to be left wet this i think is true,
The person that i sold the round to lost a lot of customers even he said it did not matter how clean he got them they are not happy, sadly he gave up and just walked a way and never went back,
He has given me all the addresses to which i have gone back round to try and get them back sadly he has lost quite a few,
But on the ones that i have got back was only if i did not use the wfp as they dont like it Well is the customer alway right as we say,
So for the last week and this i have gone back to doing them trad and i have been getting even the old customers back who said they had someone else and have been picking up new ones as well,
Thing is all these customers where wfp which i converted my self did they just put up with it because i was with them so long! seems so cause soon as i sell the round the poor guy was losing customers rapid an i can say he knew how to use the wfp as well i trained him up before he bought the round and he worked with me as well before he took over,
Now when i bought my wfp was
(1) i believed in it
(2) safety
(3)It was the way forward
Now i am not so sure ok say stick with it, but i have found that maybe 25% for it or will put up with it 75% prefer trad
now if i was a newbie starting up window cleaning wfp is going to take longer to build than trad,
Now i picked up a new customer today the area he is in was one that i did for 2 years i asked why he did not ask me before he said i dont like that pole thing
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Some people dont mind there windows being done with it and some dont like it, Ive been wfp now for about 2 weeks, and i have not yet had any customers complain! but i still have over 60% of them to clean with wfp yet so i will see :)
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very strange i thought the wfp was the way forward too,
havent changed over yet but been looking into it how could they not be happy thought it would do a better job
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point 2 was my only reason and it still is
i dont care if my rivals have WFP and it makes you more pro
i dont care if i can earn more money
i dont care if people say they work in the rain with it ( i dont )
the only reason i use it is because its safe, im a young-ish bloke now, i have a young family, safety first for me i am afraid
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very strange i thought the wfp was the way forward too,
havent changed over yet but been looking into it how could they not be happy thought it would do a better job
Some people want there window to be bone dry when u clean them! With wfp the finished result is the opposite
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It depends how big the houses are,most of the houses i do are almost dry when i leave due to them being big.
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It depends how big the houses are,most of the houses i do are almost dry when i leave due to them being big.
I mean.... They dont like to see water squirting all over there window then u walk of leaving it wet!
When they see you wiping it with a cloth they are happy
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point 2 was my only reason and it still is
i dont care if my rivals have WFP and it makes you more pro
i dont care if i can earn more money
i dont care if people say they work in the rain with it ( i dont )
the only reason i use it is because its safe, im a young-ish bloke now, i have a young family, safety first for me i am afraid
in what way is it more safe?are u not carefull anway?
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I know what your saying but if you speak to inteligent and mainly well off customers there not stupid,they will look at the end result when there dry.If you explain the new routine of cleaning ie they will dry clean and clear they will execpt it unless what your saying is wrong,anyone with half a brain would at least give the system a chance and if they like you also as a human being they will respect your saftey.
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hi been wfp 1 year.... not one complaint at all, in fact i hardly have any contact apart from when they send me cheques and say the windows , frames and doors are amazing.... silly but true. :)
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I know what your saying but if you speak to inteligent and mainly well off customers there not stupid,they will look at the end result when there dry.If you explain the new routine of cleaning ie they will dry clean and clear they will execpt it unless what your saying is wrong,anyone with half a brain would at least give the system a chance and if they like you also as a human being they will respect your saftey.
Yes very true! this is why none of my customers have said no to it!
But you know as well as i do there are some funny sods out there who have had there windows done trad for the last 20years and want to keep it that way! when you explain the way wfp works they think its a load of rubbish..
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dont know much about wfp but why is it so much safer?
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dont know much about wfp but why is it so much safer?
Ladders = there is a chance how ever small or big 'You can fall and hurt yourself'
wfp = you % cannot hurty yourself in anyway
???
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point 2 was my only reason and it still is
i dont care if my rivals have WFP and it makes you more pro
i dont care if i can earn more money
i dont care if people say they work in the rain with it ( i dont )
the only reason i use it is because its safe, im a young-ish bloke now, i have a young family, safety first for me i am afraid
in what way is it more safe?are u not carefull anway?
Well imho
climbing ladders all day = risk of falling
waving a pole around = very little risk
On the note of my safety and being carefull, i used to use a ladder stopper AND a canvas tool bag with sand bag inside, so i had little chance of the ladder slipping, but still a slight risk
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im not 96 surely there must be someway u can get hurty
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It's all down to the quality of your explanation - in writing - and your positive attitude (as in you know it dries good and you are positively going to use it and that's it or bye bye!).
I will never use a ladder again for window cleaning - never, never, never - did I say never? I meant never.
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im not 96 surely there must be someway u can get hurty
Is this a windup.... Look at how many deaths there has been useing ladders....
Then look at how many deaths there has been useing wfp...
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Power lines if your really unlucky but you would have more chance of electrocuting yourself in america as the power lines over there are not always insulated,as for the comment about the old sods you`ve been doing for some 20yrs there the ones that get dumped,if they won`t give the pole a chance i won`t give them one.
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is wfp any good or not
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Put it this way i cleaned trad way for over 15 yrs and if i had to go back to trad full time i would seriously have to WC as a job,WFP will not only change the way you work but it will change your life ie more money-time off-more energy at the end of the week and you`ll look forward to going to work i know i now do.
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thats alll i want to know
to many deaths from power lines
i wish my ladders reached
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yes it is safer and better, but i think a lot of customers feel ripped off, i mean i used to do avr 2/3 bed semi in 15/20 mins then went wfp and it changed to 8/10 mins
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is wfp any good or not
Yes and no.
Yes, it's great: :D
Easier.
Quicker = more money
Safer.
Less tiring.
No, it's pants: >:(
More to go wrong.
Customers preferred the old way. Lost me a lot of work.
Looks untidy.
Expensive.
I prefer it to trad any day.
Customers don't.
Take your pick...
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The end result is what there paying for,if you went round there house and waved a magic wand and it cleaned there windows instantly they are still getting what they paid for,clean window`s.
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I think you have hit the nail on the head squeaky
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The trouble is Squeaky your customers can smell your not convinced by it,it`s like being sold a car by a skoda salesman he wonders what your doing in the showroom.
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surely is the custy not right ? ;D
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whats up with skoda these days they can do some good deal :Ps
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The trouble is Squeaky your customers can smell your not convinced by it,it`s like being sold a car by a skoda salesman he wonders what your doing in the showroom.
Of course I'm convinced.
I've said a thousand times, I do a perfectly good job with it.
I'm usually well impressed with my results.
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I don`t think they always are,it`s not always the results they don`t like it`s the method used.They want clean window`s i`ll give them clean window`s,i won`t be told how to clean them,it`s like telling a chef to boil every grain of rice individually he`d think you were stupid,if your willing to let customers dictate to you how to clean there window`s your letting them tell you how to do your job.
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Although I have obnly been wfp since May I have not had one complaint or cancellation. I have even picked up some work off of others that are wfp but not doing a good job. They wanted me to use a ladder and I talked them round to trying this for the first clean. If not happy then I would do whole close trad. Guess what no complaints! I was a little sceptical myself at first but now I cant imagine ever going back. I still get the ladder out every now and then though.
The downside as far as I can see for us w/c's is that the squeegee is going to become the "lost art" of window cleaning and thats sad.
I come across quite a few more w/c's than ever before and I would estimate that 75% can't use a squeegee.
Of course this is all my opinion
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The thing is these days the old man with a rag is dissapearing fast,people are realising that theres money to be earned and with WFP you can earn it quicker.To offer a complete service being able to squeeggee is essential.
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you got my vote windows u seem to have been doing this a while
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I have been on wfp for 8 months now and in total i lost two customers who said it was crap dumped one because she had crp windows and on my third day using it i knocked a foot long piece of putty out the window and one bungalow who asked if i could go back to trad "because of all the mess it makes" (its water for ***** sake not dog vomit) some custs have said its better some have not even noticed any difference as for the safety aspect well i still carry ladders but no more roof work unless they r flat all in all its much better you just got to sell it and also i have picked up 14 new custs since starting and they all accepted pole from beginning.However running costs are higher and i spend half hour or so in evening filling tanks changing resin checking tds levels etc but still more than happy plus room on round now for more work if i want (or more time off hard to make your mind up this time of year the duvet just seems to pin me to the matress in the morns ;D) also dont forget it still does a better job than some blokes can do with a blade
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G O A, working off ladders is high risk, that's a given, risk of electrocution is minimal, people keep carping on about that, but if you are working off ladders you will also be at risk of electrocution!
How often do you see a window cleaner lowering his ladder before he moves it along to the next window or around the corner of the building?
I've been WFP over 3 years now, been a window cleaner close on 25 years in total and I have had very, very few problems with converting customers to WFP, and none at all with new customers.
compared to trad, WFP will do a far more 'thorough' clean, it allows you to clean the frames and so on far better than you can do with trad, this really shows up on things like conservatories and so on.
WFP isn't perfect of course, it is far easier to screw it up and make a right pigs ear of the window, and as Squeaky says, there is far more to go wrong with the system.
As for making more money...
Well that isn't a given.
For instance:
A guy starts up WFP after reading about how brilliant it is on here or elsewhere, its fast, its easy, you make loads of money!!!!!
He goes to a 3 bedroom semi with 15 georgian windows, lets say he has done a fair few normal accounts with ordinary casement windows and he knows this house is only going to take him 20 minutes...tops...to do, hardly any different to a normal house...
So he charges £8.00, he thinks he is on the equivalent of £24.00 per hour...good money in anyones opinion eh?
A house such as this would take at least 40 minutes done trad.
99 times out of a 100, people come into window cleaning and are way out on their pricing.
Our newbie is probably only pricing at rate that would be achievable were he trad, because were he trad he would be pricing this house at DOUBLE what he priced it WFP.
Our newbie will almost certainly not have allowed for initial investment and the continued investment needed with WFP.
Because even a newbie will be faster, he will price too cheaply.
You can make money WFP, but only if you are pricing at similar level to trad...I must do a more detailed explanation, maybe in a separate thread, this isn't really the place for it!
But if you believe in your system, your customer will believe in you, and providing you are skilled enough to do a good job, the odd line of spots will be overlooked.
And make no mistake....it IS a skill, I've picked up work from other WFP window cleaners that do an awful job, and the customer really doesn't like WFP at all, but after I've finished they love it.
Ian
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There is a place for WFP in this industry and there is a place for Trad in this industry, they are just tools of the trade and either method used can get a bad result if not used correctly.
Converting custys to WFP, is not easy, but we managed it by putting in writing to each custy why we were changing our methods, how it works and the benefits that the custy would see.
New custys are now not a problem as we have mostly been recommended and the "poley" thing has already been discussed and when we offer an explanantion, we get "I know Mrs xxxxx had told me and her windows are beautifully clean when you have been" Saying that we still give explanation letters along with t & c's.
It's how you sell wfp to the customer aswell, you have to believe in it and you have to convince them that it does work. One tip is to come away from saying that we clean with pure water only. Change this to "purified" or "RO water" or something like that. Many times the word "pure" had mislead people into think we use "just" water. We had been asked why we carry our own water, when "you could just hook up to our garden tap" a sure sign that custy has not understood. ;D
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There always seems to be a bit of a 'battle' re: WFP v Trad...they both have there place...Now it seems some are trying to make trad out to be some sort of rocket science proceedure...lets face it...it is not....sure to be fast requires alot of practice and diligence....but rocket science it is not...
The same applies with wfp...there is a method and this method can change to fit the circumstance.
I have built my round from scratch using wfp and I have had 1 customer freak and I mean freak...the old guy took me on I explained the system he says ok.....the wife must have been about 80 ...well I could hear her shouting.....There's water all over the place he's spraying water....the old guy came out apologised and said please do not come again... ;D ;D perceptions ....
As an average I grow my customer base by 2 per week and as such still do many first cleans...I put extra effort into the 1st/2nd/3rd cleans and then I speed up....WFP can do what trad does....with the right frame of mind and work ethic.
Anyone can do a rubbish job whether it be with rag, trad, wfp...
But why do we always have to resort to 'method' bashing...After only 67 weeks I have a business that is doing very well (not full)....and why?
Because I work hard (as do you all), reading and take information from here, apply myself, watch what is happening like a hawk with regard to targets, projections and review weekly.......
So at the end of the day it is down to the individual who makes the difference...
Be it trad, wfp, rag, fast, slow, good, bad, regular, turn up whenever, polite, bolshy..it's all just a matter of YOU....
Personally I see a week in, week out growth, at prices I am happy with and in area's I want to work in....without too many complaints....
But the wfp v trad is a nonstarter really...they are both potentially fanstastic/bad tools...but we sometimes talk about them and when someone else makes a comment almost regard it as a personal insult.....ROFL.
We are just a load of people sharing this forum...for as many reasons as there are members...but the method tit for tat is sad.
Dave.
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There always seems to be a bit of a 'battle' re: WFP v Trad...they both have there place...Now it seems some are tyring to make trad out to be some sort of rocket science proceedure...lets face it...it is not....sure to be fast requires alot of practice and diligence....but rocket science it is not...
The same applies with wfp...there is a method and this method can change to fit the circumstance.
I have built my round from scratch using wfp and I have had 1 customer freak and I mean freak...the old guy took me on I explained the system he says ok.....the wife must have been about 80 ...well I could hear her shouting.....There's water all over the place he's spraying water....the old guy came out apologised and said please do not come again... ;D ;D perceptions ....
As an average I grow my customer base by 2 per week and as such still do many first cleans...I put extra effort into the 1st/2nd/3rd cleans and then I speed up....WFP can do what trad does....with the right frame of mind and work ethic.
Anyone can do a rubbish job whether it be with rag, trad, wfp...
But why do we always have to resort to 'method' bashing...After only 67 weeks I have a business that is doing very well (not full)....and why?
Because I work hard (as do you all), reading and take information from here, apply myself, watch what is happening like a hawk with regard to targets, projections and review weekly.......
So at the end of the day it is down to the individual who makes the difference...
Be it trad, wfp, rag, fast, slow, good, bad, regular, turn up whenever, polite, bolshy..it's all just a matter of YOU....
Personally I see a week in, week out growth, at prices I am happy with and in area's I want to work in....without too many complaints....
But the wfp v trad is a nonstarter really...they are both potentially fanstastic/bad tools...but we sometimes talk about them and when someone else makes a comment almost regard it as a personal insult.....ROFL.
We are just a load of people sharing this forum...for as many reasons as there are members...but the method tit for tat is sad.
Dave.
Very good post Dave ;)
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Yep, good post Dave,
You understand your business, and you work hard at it, but oh so many come into window cleaning and get it oh so wrong!
A point to remember is that WFP does not replace trad, it only really replaces the need to work off a ladder.
Ian
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Sorry..should have mentioned that both tools are in my toolbox and used where and when required...best tool for the job in hand. ;D ;D
Dave.
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Yep, good post Dave,
but oh so many come into window cleaning and get it oh so wrong!
A point to remember is that WFP does not replace trad, it only really replaces the need to work off a ladder.
Ian
Oh so true on both accounts, we made many mistakes at first, but we learnt really quickly from them, we still make mistakes as we all do, just not so many ;D ;D
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good tip helen i will remember to say purified water in future , 1 other tip is when they say ( they,re still wet ) and they do even when you,ve explained it to them , i say the reason we leave them wet is that the water is steralising the glass so that they stay cleaner longer .
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good tip helen i will remember to say purified water in future , 1 other tip is when they say ( they,re still wet ) and they do even when you,ve explained it to them , i say the reason we leave them wet is that the water is steralising the glass so that they stay cleaner longer .
[/quoe]
i bet with bulsh-t like this flying around they dont stay clean for long
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Hi All,
I have been telling all new customers:
"The only trouble with my Water fed Pole method is the windows are left wet. But they will dry of fine"
Customers reply is 99% of the time
"Oh, I don't care about that, so long as they are clean"
Getting fed up of harping on about "Wet" windows ::)
But I still mention it ;)
David
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I was dumped today by one customer because "I had a chat with my wife and we don't like the windows left wet". I really had to bite my tongue not to ask how they managed when it rained. Apparently no problem with the work quality, just moaning about the windows being wet.
Personally I couldn't be bothered about these people. They either want the windows clean or they don't. I don't expect to tell the bus driver how to drive or the plumber how to plumb or the electrician what tools to use.
Problem is everyone is an expert on something they think you can pick up in a day. If they are that clever they can do their own windows.
On the plus side I gained a £10.00 job, an £8.00 job and a £13.00 job today so they wont be missed.
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I started off trad then went wfp, I then went back to trad and now I am back wfp! I think it is down to how you sell your service to the customer, when I take on a new customer I tell them that I provide a superior service and I clean frames and sills as well as the glass and I even clean their doors, all included in the price! I tell them that I use the latest methods in window cleaning using pure water with no detergents so the glass actually stays cleaner for longer due to no sticky residue. I don't go in there giving them all the negatives about the glass being wet ect and apologising that I have to use these new methods due to health and safety! Sell yourself and your service, do a good job and you won't lose customers due to wfp, in fact you will gain them.
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Sounds like your not quite doing things right, thousands of wc's have proved that the wfp method and cross over is simple and have had very little if any casulties on the way. Re think your buisness plan, Luke
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I started off trad then went wfp, I then went back to trad and now I am back wfp! I think it is down to how you sell your service to the customer, when I take on a new customer I tell them that I provide a superior service and I clean frames and sills as well as the glass and I even clean their doors, all included in the price! I tell them that I use the latest methods in window cleaning using pure water with no detergents so the glass actually stays cleaner for longer due to no sticky residue. I don't go in there giving them all the negatives about the glass being wet ect and apologising that I have to use these new methods due to health and safety! Sell yourself and your service, do a good job and you won't lose customers due to wfp, in fact you will gain them.
Exactly what I do, but I don't gain any, I lose them.
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I started off trad then went wfp, I then went back to trad and now I am back wfp! I think it is down to how you sell your service to the customer, when I take on a new customer I tell them that I provide a superior service and I clean frames and sills as well as the glass and I even clean their doors, all included in the price! I tell them that I use the latest methods in window cleaning using pure water with no detergents so the glass actually stays cleaner for longer due to no sticky residue. I don't go in there giving them all the negatives about the glass being wet ect and apologising that I have to use these new methods due to health and safety! Sell yourself and your service, do a good job and you won't lose customers due to wfp, in fact you will gain them.
Exactly what I do, but I don't gain any, I lose them.
Then you have to be doing something wrong m8, or you are just the most unluckist bloke in town,,,, yer but not but yer but......whateva
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And you`ll keep losing them,i reckon you have a customer base of like minded people.None of them give a S*** about your saftey,you say you get comments about the new van etc.I get no not today thankyou`s and 99% of them have excepted the pole,you have to groom them to your way of thinking Squeaky.
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We all lose customers....some will just moan and say 'I lose customers but do not get more'....some will do something about their situation...I have not canvassed or bought a single customer...all mine come from leaflets and word of mouth (just starting to take off)....it's slow but an average of 2 new customers per week just from leaflets (just orderd another 5k)...now think how many that could be with a combination of leaflets, local rag advertising & canvassing etc, etc?
This whole thing is about attitude.....some people take a few knocks on the chin and lose the will to fight and then some take the knocks....stand up, dust themselves off and start again...
For those who are going through a bad patch and losing customers (we all have them)....re-evalutate the concerns address them and approach those issues from a different angle...There seems to be a certain line that new customers seem to present fewer issues/cancellations that converting exsiting trad customers...I have not had this as I started 'fresh' but lets face it every business needs some new blood....if your having problems with existing customers....seek to replace with new. Just think in 2 years it should be no problem to gain an avg of 1 per week..... = 104 new accounts...without really trying...perhaps a good period to start re-pricing....
Window cleaning is a very simplistic business...but as we all know it is equally easy to let it stagnate and die...
Targets, targets, projections & evaluation:
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We made the decision that if we made our targets this year....we'll go on holiday...In Jan we'll be getting sun burned in Thailand for 3 weeks and diving, diving, diving....after 45 weeks of this year we hit both our monetry and customer base targets....was it an accident...hell no...we made it happen...so I far have put 20k leaflets out....and will continue to re-leaflet area's, streets until I achieve the targets....for 2008/9 & 10...
Each sunday we look at 'George' and evaluate what is happening..ok so I am a bit anal with numbers/percentages....projections, targets...but without it...I would have no real clue as to what is happening and what is not...
Now reading this post back to myself...I think ...it is all just full of 'I' and 'me'....I did this, I did that...well yes it does but it should also say Thanks to all those who do the same...as without it where would we learn from?
So Thanks to everyone for helping the g/f and I sit on a beach in Jan ;D, we'll be thinking of you all....right!!
Dave.
ps The banks here have said that I should be able to get a mortgage in 2009/10 at the rate this business is growing...whahhhhhhhhey!!
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The problem i have is that my calender is very uneven so when i have a couple of very busy weeks i don't canvass and would prefer not to take on new work. Then when i hit my quiet patches it's already too late to pick up work. I think you need to be on the lookout for opportunities all the time.
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I actually find these type of posts very negative for our whole industry because these customers will forever not like wfp whereas they should be loving all of its safety and cleanliness aspects. I used to be trad, cleaning both glass and frames and wfp does a better job, no question, anybody that says otherwise is very very very wrong, either their not doing it right or are prejudice towards it. It does an amazing job of frames and glass. My dad had a man follow him around a new clean, just totally amazed how well the wfp was removing years of muck so easily!!!end of case, I have an open mind but when it comes to this my mind is closed, wfp does a better job, Luke
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all i know is that i started window cleaning in june using wfp and have now around 70 customers,all by word of mouth and all i have ever had is reconmendations from them and no complaints up to date. i took the time to totally explain how it worked and even left them a leaflet explaining it all again,just in case i had forgotten something. i have seen other people using wfp and also traditional window cleaners over the last few months and spoke to many. i think both ways are as good as each other if done properly as the results differ so much from each window cleaner. if some people took an extra couple of minutes on each job,whichever way they did it they may not be so many complaints. i have also found that 50 % of the job is the windows and 50% of the job is customer relationship. hope this helps .
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I totally agree with your post Gary, I think many people get carried away with the speed side of wfp, and end up with poor results. And as you say customer relations are 50% of the job!
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I was going to say exactly the same thing, if people respect you then they respect your work, Luke