Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Alan Brooker. Aqualink Carpet Care on November 20, 2007, 12:27:41 pm
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Oh no, here we go again ::)
I use CFR tooling. I clean a lot of wool carpets using m/s, Host agitation and Ninja high lift/ low cfm plain water rinse.
My problem - There's not enough cfm available to sufficiently dry the carpets so I'm considering a multiple parallel vac setup but this would cause a big reduction in water lift.
When I have run a single vac motor to get an idea of how the tools perform with lower lift (like a CFR machine) I find that the water recovery is more or less the same (waste tank measurements) BUT... The wand head gets large clumps of wool fibre just sitting in the entrance - not going anywhere. Has anyone experienced this problem or is it just because I tried one vac motor. I'd appreciate comments from any triple vac parallel porty owners.
Here's to a busy run up to year end.
Alan
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I'm finding your post a little confusing, are you saying you have 2 vacs in series and want to try parallel? but are worried that parallel vacs have lower cfms.
the problem you've got is leaving the carpet to wet, whether your vacs are in series or parallel doesn't make any difference, you've been listening to too many salesmen selling what their machines have.
if you want drier carpets them good wand technique & more dry strokes is what you need
wool sitting in the vac slot is no measurement of power
Mike
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Maybe I waffled a bit. Sorry.
I dont get the problem of fluff sitting in the wand head with two in series because of great suction.
If I change over to 2 in parallel (which will reduce the suction) will the increase in airflow shift the fluff (or do I rely on the big suction)?
Alan
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Hi Alan, I have a Aqua 40 with 5.7" parallel motors and the lift /airflow is awesome ,especially when I use 2" vac hose ( No fluff). When I had my Ninja the motors were 7.2" and spun slower so did not seem as powerful,this seemed to be the case compared to my friends Alltec Advantage with 7.2" in parallel,the Aqua 40 seemed to have the edge.
Regards Rob
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Alan, why do you want a quicker drying time on rugs ?
My view is that I could not use a CFR hand tool on a rug because of the angle of the jet. The CFR is designd with the jet flow at an acute angle which will only jet the top of the pile as the hand tool is designd for upholstery. My prefered hand tool for rugs is th Prochem Drymaster as it has a flood jet that fires in above the pile hnce giving further penetration ino the pile which is necessary for all dense piled rugs.
In relation to drying times in the summer months I just hang and they take a few hours to dry, this time of year they can take a couple of days, I usually give mycustomrs a one week lead time with ugs but this time of year they can wait up to 2 weeks.
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First of all, Rob thankyou very much for your helpful response and secondly Paul - this only seems to be a problem with the wand. I use the special purpose handtool on rugs with great results. See 'Olney rugs' website for the short video clip. They use same system.
Regards
Alan
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Maybe I waffled a bit. Sorry.
I dont get the problem of fluff sitting in the wand head with two in series because of great suction.
If I change over to 2 in parallel (which will reduce the suction) will the increase in airflow shift the fluff (or do I rely on the big suction)?
Alan
Alan try using a truckmount then if you want more vac/suck :o unless you have one of those portys that are more powerfull than a truck ::)
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I rarely use more than 100' of hose, I often work in secure locations and restricted parking area's and as I advertise a 'green' approach to cleaning - I wouldn't use a truckmount because it puts out up to SIX times more carbon into the air than a normal car engine. Just as daft as pop stars jetting around the globe to arrive at venues to hilight global warming (a bit extreme but it goes to prove a point). I would like a truckmount but fail to see any genuine benefit over a well designed porty.
Alan
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Sorry to sound condesending, but thats poope.
Thats the kind of answer I would expect on the cleantalk board.
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that was'nt a nice thing to say ;) ;)
I'm sure he can back up his claim that T/Ms produce SIX times more carbon than an average car ::)
Mike
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::) ::)
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Most engines are about 1/6th of the size of a cars engines unless you have a Vortex or a Range Rover Vogue.
Shaun
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modern car engine have catalytic converters fitted to stop some of the harmful fumes escaping into the atmosphere, so theoreticaly a small car engine might be less polluting than the really big T/Ms, but six times less carbon, not possible ( but I would love to be proven wrong)
what I find most laughable is the idea that anyone would chose not to use a T/M because they want to be 'green'
Mike
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Im starting to detest (sp) the green issues. I think people are ONLY green because its now cool and if theres something in it for them ie. their approach to selling their business services. Based on that theory Im proudly carbon positive with my TM because it makes me more money than a portable which of coarse used electric.
Back to the question. Having had a Ninja IMO any more than 50ft of hose is too much of a loss in vac power which equals longer drying esp this time of year. With the Ninja youll also be tempted to have the pressure up at 300-400psi which again is putting more water down than 100psi. The CFR tool is an upholstery tool and even with a TM fails to penetrate thick rugs.
For better drying times i found vacs in parallel are better but using a vac booster and dryers are the only way to boost a portables vacuum recovery.
Rugs should not take one to two weeks to dry as its a problem waiting to happen. A heater and fan has them dry in a few hours.
Mark
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Im starting to detest (sp) the green issues. I think people are ONLY green because its now cool and if theres something in it for them ie. their approach to selling their business services. Based on that theory Im proudly carbon positive with my TM because it makes me more money than a portable which of coarse used electric.
Back to the question. Having had a Ninja IMO any more than 50ft of hose is too much of a loss in vac power which equals longer drying esp this time of year. With the Ninja youll also be tempted to have the pressure up at 300-400psi which again is putting more water down than 100psi. The CFR tool is an upholstery tool and even with a TM fails to penetrate thick rugs.
For better drying times i found vacs in parallel are better but using a vac booster and dryers are the only way to boost a portables vacuum recovery.
Rugs should not take one to two weeks to dry as its a problem waiting to happen. A heater and fan has them dry in a few hours.
Mark
Mark good post. With a lot of common sence said.
Just to qualify your last point which I think relates to my post. I said I tell my customers that this time of year rugs have a 2 week lead time, that is because of higher work volume ,I did not say 2 week drying time. Normaly my customers have a one week lead time for rugs.( Lead time = rug pick up from customer , clean and delivery back to home)
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Beg pardon.
Ive 8 drying as we speak but its also 3 degrees and I may need another heater.
BTW Ive the 3kw heater from Broughton. Great job, very robust.
Mark
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Alan
" I wouldn't use a truckmount because it puts out up to SIX times more carbon into the air than a normal car engine".
If thats true then have a TM converted to run on LPG, problem solved.
Alan
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Cost of putting together a 223" water lift - 223 cfm, 500 psi porty ... Not much over 2k.
Cost of 190" water lift - 250 cfm petrol truckmount 10k? Plus LPG conversion cost...
Alan
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Alan which portable & T/M are you getting these figure from
also don't forget the 3 electric heat exchangers you'll need to equal the T/M heatexchanger ( oops I forgot you don't need heat with todays environmentally friendly chemicals ::) ::)) AND the five electric cables you'll need to power the portable and heat exchangers to be on par with the T/M
if we are truly comparing a portable with a T/M we need to add £11000 a year to pay for the assistant who will be constantly filling and emptying the portable while you work, unless its van mounted which means you need a waste & fresh tank also a hose reel with 200ft of hose & solution line........ HOLD ON A MINUTE!!!! THAT NOT A PORTABLE.... THATS A POOR MANS TRUCKMOUNT :D :D
Mike
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Truckmounts - all that unnecesarry heat, truckmount owners - all that hot air ... Could we be looking at global warming public enemy number one?;D
Alan
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A witty reply!!
always the fail-safe answer when your caught talking rubbish ;)
Mike
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Suppliers will provide numbers to confuse and even mislead you both TM and portable suppliers.
You cant compare apples to bananas, portables being the bananas.
Ive had a CFR, Ninja, Alltec advantage, Woodbridge powermate, Savage vac booster, Bane with the Savage booster, Ninja with a mitey one booster and not one them or there configerations come anyway near the performance of a TM.
Recently Ive started using 2inch hose all the way to the wand and the carpets now 'feel' dry after a few dry stokes. When cleaning rugs they take twice as long to dry in my drying room as when using the TM.
Facts are facts, anyone can spin the figures.
Mark
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im the greenest t.m. user of the lot !!!!!! and six times more carbon is a load of bull poop i think your on the wrong borad posting here ;D
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You cant compare apples to bananas, portables being the bananas.
Ive had a CFR, Ninja, Alltec advantage, Woodbridge powermate, Savage vac booster, Bane with the Savage booster, Ninja with a mitey one booster and not one them or there configerations come anyway near the performance of a TM.
Recently Ive started using 2inch hose all the way to the wand and the carpets now 'feel' dry after a few dry stokes. When cleaning rugs they take twice as long to dry in my drying room as when using the TM.
Mark
If anything's bananas mate it's got to be you. How much money have you thrown to just about every manufacturer going in an attempt to understand something that a little thorough research would have revealed for free? Each of those machines is passable to good varying from high cfm to high lift but never both. Even the Savage booster wouldn't give you what you're looking for because you've incorrectly applied the use use vacuum systems. All you ever did was create an unbalanced system, sucking air out of other motors rather than a unified equal effort through the vacuum hose. A 2 inch hose will produce less frictional loss than 1.5" thereby allowing for better movement of air but at the end of the day 99% of wands will restrict all the air through their 19mm aperture.
I actually agree about the "its all hype" comments. Fact is it would take a triple lead six vac machine running three in series pairs parallel to make a porty more powerful than an entry level truckmount and that's before you start looking for heat.
Thing is - with proper tooling and a correct understanding of your equipment the undeniably big power of some truckmounts just isn't necesarry to acheive fantastic results.
Alan.
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Alan, with respect it sounds to me like you think you are on CleanTalk & have been listening to Super Nick & Super John ::).
Does electricity not harm our dying planet? All this crap i hear about bloody TM based portys and to much heat from a TM & so on, 95% of this is people been BRAINWASHED by CT/SOLUTIONS.
Richie.
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I think I've visited the cleantalk site a couple of times a couple of years ago and (you can check if you like) I don't think I've ever posted on there either. Not that that's a downer on Nick, for some bizarre reason I post on this site although to be honest most of the previously respected porty and truckmount owners seemed to have jumped ship... Can't think why?
It seems to me that there are some folk on here that own or want a truckmounted system and feel that this by default makes them somehow produce better results than mere 'mortals' that choose to use portable systems.
The FACT that a fossil fuel powered truckmounted system is more powerful than an electric system means NOTHING when it comes to cleaning results. Anyone who really believes this is genuinely away with the fairies ::).
I've just purchased a Kirby G10. This is without any doubt the most effective vacuum cleaner made and has no competition worldwide and yet it's electric motor only draws around 600 watts. It is as good as it is because it is very well designed. Upping the motor power four times to 3kw (seeing as it's available) won't improve it's cleaning performance otherwise obviously Kirby would have done this.
Those of us that clean carpets correctly work to a system wether it be truckmounted or portable. Since around 85% of soil can be removed in dry form by a well built vacuum cleaner and then a proprietory pre-spray agitated with; in my case a HOST machine breaks the bond between oily soil and fibre then the extraction process simply rinses out what's left - those of us that have taken the time to understand the physics involved realise that they're perfectly able to produce clean, dry carpets to such a quality that they are able to say "If you're not totally amazed at the results then I don't want your money" and I along with I'm sure many other electric machine owners have yet to fall foul of this offer.
To suggest that by using such logic I obviously share the opinions of another cleaning forum only goes to highlight the ignorance of some operatives using this forum who by inferance consider everyone on here is as 'follow the crowd' backwards as they are.
Something to consider,
Alan
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Alan
My quest or journey through the machines was a combination of growing a business and yes a few mistakes where made but Im a man so can own up to that as i dont know or care for the technical data.
You quite correct in most of what you say regarding results but then there comes a point when your business demands results quicker and more effectively. A TM can meet these needs as it is a production tool.
Of course you can achieve the same results with a portable even a bucket and spoonge if your inclined, but it will take you longer and it will not be as dry.
Carpet cleaning is a time management business. A TM gives you more time which equals more profit.
You comment regarding wands makes sense on paper or screen in this case but in the real world there is a massive difference in 2inch to the wand over 1.5inch hose. Of course you may never see this benefit as a standard portable couldnt perform with 2inch hose.
Mark
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[quote author=Alan Brooker mBICSc.
It seems to me that there are some folk on here that own or want a truckmounted system and feel that this by default makes them somehow produce better results than mere 'mortals' that choose to use portable systems.
The FACT that a fossil fuel powered truckmounted system is more powerful than an electric system means NOTHING when it comes to cleaning results. Anyone who really believes this is genuinely away with the fairies ::).
Alan,
In the past i have cleaned for (example) a night club. I was told by the manager that the club had always been cleaned with a portable in the past (even by the previous cleaners that ran a TM) because it could not be accessed with a TM. I booked the club in and took 300psi & 500psi portables with me and another operator. The reason the previous cleaners using the porty was because they think the TM would clean it as the club was about 100 feet up, (bloody idiots). Anyway, we cleaned the carpets on this occassion with the portys pre-spraying with MS (same as previous cleaners) & aggitated. The carpets were cleaned on a monthly basis for the past 12-15 months. God it was hard work even though the carpets were not as badly soiled as ive seen others. We ensured that as much soil n crap was extracted from the carpet and plenty of dry strokes. The carpet looked good (end result took 7.5 hours). The following month we turned up armed with the TM. The carpet looked the same as it did on the arrival 1 month earlier. Sprayed the carpet with MS NO AGGITATION. The job this time with ONE TM 2 men took a mere 4.5 hours. The manager came & looked at the end result and could not believe how much cleaner it looked. I called him the following month to bre-book, he explained that the carpets still looked ok, but to come as per usual anyway. Again we got there......... :o what i difference, the carpet looked much better than previous. Cleaning this time took just 3.5 hours. thereafter the job was booked every 6-7 weeks.
So yes i do believe and proved to myself that the clean on night club carpets was much better than with the porty PLUS the clean lasted longer ;D. Happy manager, plus although the club wasnt cleaned as often more work was obtained via the manager singing our praises to other clubs.
Richie.
PS the daily cleaners used to sweep the carpet the used a upright vacuum. First and one of the only times ive seen this in a night club :o
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Having just spent the last ten minutes absorbing the posts on here, I have come to the conclusion that the green issue points raised here , on the whole are a load of twaddle :) :-\
How can anybody seriously worry about the carbon a t/m produces and the effect it may have on their buisness worriyng that a custy wants a greener cleaning system?
Lets be realistic, 1 in 10,000 is perhaps a true eco warrier concered about the effects of fossil fuels!
"and the chances are they wouldnt even consider having any carpets cleaned" ;)
To put it bluntly, Any custy who shows the slightest concern is likely to be a hypocrite. I am not say they will have a chelsea tractor, but I bet they have dish washers, washing machines ,perhaps at least two cars and all fly away on holiday.
T/m versus porty . green argument. simple their isnt one !!!!
Geoff
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Hi Guys
I've just read this thread and my bull attenae were stimulated by the 6 times more CO2 claim, how much science was that based on ?
Has this come from one of the engine suppliers ?
Would be interesting to see where this claim originates.
Cheers
Doug
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Hi Alan, I have a Aqua 40 with 5.7" parallel motors and the lift /airflow is awesome ,especially when I use 2" vac hose ( No fluff). When I had my Ninja the motors were 7.2" and spun slower so did not seem as powerful,this seemed to be the case compared to my friends Alltec Advantage with 7.2" in parallel,the Aqua 40 seemed to have the edge.
Regards Rob
Rob
Have you had your aqua converted to 2inch hose?
I thought you had a Scorpian
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Hi Ian, yes I use 2" hose on the Aqua and I have a scorpion with inline heat as back-up ;D ;D
Regards Rob
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Richie what sort of pressure / spray tips were you using on the club carpets with the truckmount?
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Alan,
300-350psi, 4 jet Prochem wand.
Richie.