Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave JP on November 19, 2007, 11:36:23 am
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I work in the Scottish Highlands (It's a bit nippy at this time of year, I can tell you, however the scenery makes up for it !).
Recently I have noticed a few other window cleaners springing up, I know for a fact they are not registered with the Council (As you have to be here). Nor do they hold any liability insurance.
Do any of you other Scottish window cleaners know if it's an enforceable offence, not to be registered, as the local council don't seem at all bothered that they have 'Cowboys' working for beer money.
Twice this morning I have been told " We've taken on another window cleaner, he's cheaper than you".
Now I know these guy's are not registered, or insured and they are only working for beer money - Any Advice ??
I don't like to 'shop' people, but they seems to be nicking my trade ! >:(
Dave.
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I work in the Scottish Highlands (It's a bit nippy at this time of year, I can tell you, however the scenery makes up for it !).
Recently I have noticed a few other window cleaners springing up, I know for a fact they are not registered with the Council (As you have to be here). Nor do they hold any liability insurance.
Do any of you other Scottish window cleaners know if it's an enforceable offence, not to be registered, as the local council don't seem at all bothered that they have 'Cowboys' working for beer money.
Twice this morning I have been told " We've taken on another window cleaner, he's cheaper than you".
Now I know these guy's are not registered, or insured and they are only working for beer money - Any Advice ??
I don't like to 'shop' people, but they seems to be nicking my trade ! >:(
Dave.
the writting is on the wall there m8, you are doing an honest business the right way.
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Hi Dave
Have a look at this, www.slwcn.org, the lad you want to have a chat with about it is Doug, he is currently in talks with the Scottish Executive and various councils regards the flaws in the licensing of WCers in Scotland.
Tam K
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Dave,
The SLWCN are working on this, next month we have an important meeting. We have worked with a few Councils and they now recognise that this is a problem and now are looking into it.
We have not made any contact with the Highlands Council yet but we do have a list of licensed window cleaners in the area which I still have to put up on the site. The fact is unlicensed window cleaners are breaking the law, if caught they can face a £2000 fine. It is all written down in the Civic Law, all we need is for the Police to act on that law and it is happening as we speak in some areas.
Feel free to join us it's free. Just seen Tam's note to the link.
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hi lads whats the link two the form.
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http://www.slwcn.org/join.php
Here it is mate ;)
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Thanks for the advice guys, will look to join.
Maybe I'll have a word in the cowboys ear, rather than shopping him to the council - £2k fine is a bit steep, especially as he's no doubt signing on too.... ;)
Cheers,
Dave.
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Thanks for the advice guys, will look to join.
Maybe I'll have a word in the cowboys ear, rather than shopping him to the council - £2k fine is a bit steep, especially as he's no doubt signing on too.... ;)
Cheers,
Dave.
this guy either does not know you have to be registered or he dont care, my guess would be he does not care.
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Hi Dave,
That is the max they can fine you for, what the proceedure is when caught without having a licence then their details are taken down. They then have 5 days to apply for a licence, if they fail that then they are reported to the Prosecutor Fiscal and if they are a persistant offender then the fine can go to max £2000.
What the SLWCN have not done is name offenders but show the Council how complacient they are when window cleaners advertise their services even on Council Directories and not are licensed. Bit of egg on face for them, the penny drops and then they start doing what they should be doing is being pro-active. It is not upto window cleaners to inform on each other but Councils and the Police to do their job, now one has ever challanged them yet and now they are being challanged.
On another side which we have had reported to us is members of the public when looking at the SLWCN website have rung the Council about their window cleaner. They then have found their window cleaner is not licensed and then stated they will look for a licensed window cleaner. The Council then have details of the unlicensed window cleaner and details are then passed onto the Police.
Now is the challenge to get the message accross so you will not have the situation of being dropped for an unlicensed window cleaner.
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will there be doing a licence for the northeast?????????????? as there is alot of beer money window cleaners in this neck of the woods.its killing the trade with price wise. :'(
i would love something like that here ;D
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hi doug if they are caught by the police and they take there details can they continue to work until they have there licences or do they have to wait , an incentive to apply now , imagine not able to work for a month or so
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I don't have the answer to that but will try and find out, though when I applied for a licence I was told by the Council that I would have to wait until it had been processed normally 6 weeks. The SLWCN are trying to get councils to issue the licence as soon as the disclosure scotland act has been approved, compared to the 6 weeks when they discuss it at the panel meeting. The only ones that they should discuss at the panel meeting are those who have to go before the panel.
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Hi Ian,
This is what I have been informed by the Police, if caught without a licence then it is straight forward. They will get reported to the PFS which will take around 6 weeks for them to appear in court. If caught again without a licence then that is it, they will not be able to apply for a licence. So hence one could be out of work for 6 weeks or out of work all together.
I tried to put the case where they were unaware that the licence existed hence they would be allowed to apply for a licence within x days. The answer to that was Taxi drivers etc.. get charged if they do not have a licence so they cannot make an exception. Interesting though one Police force have had a purge on wheelie bin cleaners.
SLWCN has been making an impact, have been told there are behind the scenes looking at enforcing the Civic Act of which window cleaning comes under. This will not happen over night but a couple of Councils are looking into putting in their next budget for an Enforcement Officer.
On another plus site the Police contact number for reporting unlicensed window cleaners will be up shortly for each area. The Police are 100% behind the SLWCN and have our backing in publicising the licencing issue which will be the next step come next year.
One thing to watch a few Councils have positioned the enforcement of the licence in their Enviroment Department, these also deal with enforcing H&S. Cannot comment as do not know the details behind this but may be something to watch out for that H&S will be part of the spec for the licence.
Lastly any licensed window cleaner that is looking for extra work please join and get yourself added to the directory. These calls and mails are now driving me mad and the window cleaners I know have too much work on so do not know who to pass them onto.
Thanks
Doug
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This is what I have been informed by the Police, if caught without a licence then it is straight forward. They will get reported to the PFS which will take around 6 weeks for them to appear in court. If caught again without a licence then that is it, they will not be able to apply for a licence. So hence one could be out of work for 6 weeks or out of work all together.
Doug, I think the Police have got this wrong, I am under the impression that, they will
first caution the window cleaner for not having a license,
under this caution they will be informed that, they have x amount of days to apply for the license,
if they apply no further action is taken,
if they fail to apply and continue to work, then the police have the power to report to PFS.
If they are reported to The PFS, which is very rare, they are slapped with a small fine usually a lot less than the cost of the licence.
If caught again without a license, then they still will be able to apply for a licence, simply because the Civic government act only takes into account CRIMINAL offences when applying for a license, not having a window cleaners license is classed as a CIVIL offence and should not stop a license being granted at any time.
Tam
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Just to add Doug,
the above is what my council told me after I enquired if my licence renewal would be affected by that recent CIVIL offence, i committed ;)
Tam
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Tam,
Section 7 par 6 covers this :-
(b)that the holder of the licence shall be disqualified from holding a licence for a period not exceeding 5 years.
Even that it states licence holder they can view it that the person has repeated offences of not having a licence then can be disqualified for 5 years.
Is speeding a Civil offence or criminal as they are now puuling up civic trades on that.
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There is a list somewhere detailing Civil offences and Criminal offences, not sure which speeding falls under but i would guess at criminal offence.
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thanks doug , it would make sense that they cannot continue as any pl insurance they have would be void ,if they had any ,its upto the police what action they take , but i would think it would like someone starting out as a w/c , they would have to wait until approved by there council,
ian
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Doug
I will take this potential debate on the above over to network forum, later on. But i think that what you quoted (and has been pointed out to me before) is part of the reason the 2002 task group was setup to look at the possible breach of human rights act.
Tam
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Have to laugh as have been speaking to a few Council officials and they call me their pen pal ;D ;D
But it's working as they are changing wording on their sites selling the licensed window cleaner to the public. Also will be working with the Police on putting out a statement to the local press about why the window cleaners licence is in place with regards to safety etc.. Selling the licensed window cleaner.
Good thing and bad thing , just had a mail from another window cleaner they are getting a lot of calls through the SLWCN site.
Just need to add another 50 pen pals to my list, when are you getting on the gravy train ;D
Topic over will discuss elsewhere
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when i was aproached by polis and asked to produce my licence,i told them to follow m,e to my van,which was 30 feet away,showed them licence and was instantly charged for not having it on my person
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tam k cant get on the fourm .sent u a p.m on another forum :)
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zeus the Police were wrong on that and you could contest that, the law only states that you should produce a licence when questioned. It does not state that you have to carry it with you. Would be interested in the details if you so wish and we will put the Ayrshire Police correct.
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No licence required in South Ayrshire although it is something I would actively encourage the council to implement.
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Dave jp,
Where abouts in moray do you live? Elgin?
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Visiontechnician - I live in Forres, but cover some Findhorn as well.
Dave.
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No licence required in South Ayrshire although it is something I would actively encourage the council to implement.
South Ayrshire were the only Council that wanted the licence deregulated in the 2002 consultation, you will often find the reason behind this is their workforce who do the Council's windows would not be fit to hold a licence. There is one Council that supports offenders doing window cleaning as rehab.
The Council has changed hands since then so maybe worth while seeing if there are other window cleaners in your area that would support this move.
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Doug is their any hope of a multi area licence as i now need three and as you know i fully support the licence but getting three to me is over the top at over £200
Dean
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Dean
One of the areas we are looking into is getting the license boundaries changed.
At present if you want to work in more than one region you need a seperate license for each region, some regions require you to have several licenses.
We think this is all wrong and were looking at the posssibility of a national license, however going by responses the Police are against this, as they want to basically keep tabs on who is working within their areas.
The Councils, from a revenue point of view may also be against this.
What we would like to see if the national license proposal fell through, would be for a license by constabulary area, this would mean you still apply to your local council for the license, but you get to work within the boundaries of Tayside Police, rather than council boundaries. No point in applying for 3 licenses and having Tayside Police carry out the same background checks on you 3 times.
Hope you know what I am getting at, if not I am sure Doug will clarify a bit clearer.
Tam K
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That sounds a lot fairer system but as you say would each council like to lose on the revenue but if more window cleaners are licenced then that should not be a problem
Dean
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Tam beat me to it ;D
Having read the consultation reviews, a few Councils were in favour of recognising their neighbouring Councils licences. But the biggest objection was the window cleaning licence comes under the Civic Act along with other trades. The law of covering mutiple licenses covers all civic trades.
If the law was to be changed then the window cleaners licence would have to have a seperate law. This will then have an adverse reaction with other civic trades who would want the same deal. So the majority of councils rejected the proposal.
But that is not to say it is not worth fighting for as per Tam's comments. This will not happen overnight as we have to see how the SLWCN can petition Government to see about getting that changed. As you are aware this is a complicated task.
My advise is to add the costs of the licence onto your customers and make sure you sell the licence to them, this is what I find works with having more than one licence.