Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dean Aspects on November 17, 2007, 09:35:54 pm
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Can anyone give advise on how to set up a hot water system either one from diesel/lpg/gas or even an electric one if this is possible and is it after the di but before the pump/varistream
A flow diagram would be helpful
And before anyone gets on their high horse safety is of importance to me so i will be testing the set up before it goes into the van
Any help would be great
Dean
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Buy a self install one,about 2k or 2.5 fitted.
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NWH is right.
There are running costs to be considered. LPG on demand £5 pw, diesel to tank £6pd.
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red diesel that we use i 38 pence per litre or kerosene is 32 ppl and 4 litres a day is not
that much of an expense really is it and a grand for a webasto diesel is worth not having
cold hands and a stiff pipe!! ;D ;D
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Just use a typical Carpet cleaning heater like the type you get from kiko. We use Ionics "thermopure" and its no better. Cos it has a reduced flow and doesnt get very hot. The only reason I dont complain is that it is a unique selling point and we clean all windows cold any way.
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red diesel that we use i 38 pence per litre or kerosene is 32 ppl and 4 litres a day is not
that much of an expense really is it and a grand for a webasto diesel is worth not having
cold hands and a stiff pipe!! ;D ;D
V8edd, where can I get this from, be nice to have it even if i dont need to use it, also is it easy to install ?
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Just use a typical Carpet cleaning heater like the type you get from kiko. We use Ionics "thermopure" and its no better. Cos it has a reduced flow and doesnt get very hot. The only reason I dont complain is that it is a unique selling point and we clean all windows cold any way.
Don't these carpet cleaning heaters need 240 volts mains power?
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http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-GAS-TANKLESS-INSTANT-HOT-WATER-HEATER-LPG-PROPANE_W0QQitemZ110191823416QQihZ001QQcategoryZ42234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Mr Solubility, i am wondering how do you ventilate the unit? DO you use a flue or something?
Also, doesn't it affect your van insurance to carry LPG/Propane?
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We are not carrying ours in the vans.
Ive not looked into carrying the propane tanks with it.
We fill our holding tank in the van in the morning with hot water and it stays warm enough all day.
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The details are with it and you have to make your own arrangements. I only know about my circumstances, not generaliseations.
I did a lot of research including asking questions on here . It needs thinking through.
what is the increase in insurance for carrying it?
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I took a seperate policy out.
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I took a seperate policy out.
ok and the cost was? if you dont mind me asking that
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WEBASTO-12v-DIESEL-WATER-HEATER-NARROW-BOAT-EBERSPACHER_W0QQitemZ190174289404QQihZ009QQcategoryZ36798QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Dean,
Sending hot water through mixed bed resin will damage the beads in the resin, the resin would probably last a couple of days.
You will need to have pure water in your tank then heat it coming out.
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WEBASTO-12v-DIESEL-WATER-HEATER-NARROW-BOAT-EBERSPACHER_W0QQitemZ190174289404QQihZ009QQcategoryZ36798QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This water heater is not suitable for our needs. Seemingly by the time the water passes out the pump and into the tank it would make very little impact, on the water in a 400L tank. They are used to heat the water cooling system in a vehicle. It may be OK for raising the temperature slightly in the tank a couple of degrees though, but it would not be a hot water system.
Peter
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Dean,
Sending hot water through mixed bed resin will damage the beads in the resin, the resin would probably last a couple of days.
You will need to have pure water in your tank then heat it coming out.
is this not also true that hot water passing through resin makes it bad to use on Upvc :-\
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Dean,
Sending hot water through mixed bed resin will damage the beads in the resin, the resin would probably last a couple of days.
You will need to have pure water in your tank then heat it coming out.
I passed hot water through my DI tank on recommendation from a water treatment expert a few years ago, and it never did any damage to the resin. Seemingly you get more life out the resin with hot water rather than cold.
Peter
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Peter,
If you look at the spec of mixed bed resin then you will see that it will have a min/max temp. Anything above or below that temp the resin granule will split. As we know the mesh size of the resin must be between 50-60 for it to perform well, any lower than that then you have a sub standard resin that will not last long. Hence when they start to crack the mesh size is reduced.
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Peter,
If you look at the spec of mixed bed resin then you will see that it will have a min/max temp. Anything above or below that temp the resin granule will split. As we know the mesh size of the resin must be between 50-60 for it to perform well, any lower than that then you have a sub standard resin that will not last long. Hence when they start to crack the mesh size is reduced.
I will have a look. Off hand do you know what the max. Temp. is? I was definitely told that hot water was better by the company that sold me my very first DI tank, and seeing as I used to run hot water through the resin in cold weather on a regular basis, and noticed no reduction in resin life, I had no reason to doubt it. I never ran boiling water through it which I suppose would have distorted the resin, but I did run the water through as hot as it came out the tap.
Peter
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60 c http://www.purolite.com/ProductID/30/FolderID/63/PageVars/Library/Products/ProductDetails.htm
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Thanks for that I had a look on a sheet I had but it only had a storage temp and nothing about the temp of water you can put through it.
Now on that link it has an operating temp of 100c for Non-Regenerable Bed. I take it this means if the resin is not going to be regenerated then 100c can be put through it. Even though at 60c, then that is still hot water.
Peter
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Most of Purolite MB400 which we buy for window cleaning is regenerated, when it is regenerated then 60c is max. When it is pure virgin the 100c is max.
Best have a word with the manufacturing company direct to find out the true impact.
When I spoke to Thermax and I was worrying about temp etc.. they informed me if it reaches a certain temp then the resin cracks. The same can be said about freezing temp when you leave your di vessle in the van, this has an impact on your resin as well.
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I was told that the resin we use for WC is the cast off`s that companys use for purifying at a much greater level,companys that are looking for readings in parts per billions not parts per million.I`m sure someone out there will tell me what i mean LOL,that being the case in real terms it`s worth peanuts,a bit like JD`S workers LOL. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The phrase is regenerated which is resin used normally by power stations etc.. and then regenerated which some use for window cleaning. This will not give the same result as virgin which is pure and has not been used before.
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That`s it,virgin that`s what i was looking for.I havn`t used that word for sometime now,you don`t know where i can find one do you. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The phrase is regenerated which is resin used normally by power stations etc.. and then regenerated which some use for window cleaning. This will not give the same result as virgin which is pure and has not been used before.
I got a power station about 5 miles away from me, will have to ask someone about it, couple of bag and I will use more of there power ;D to use it, you think they would go for it ?
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well like peter we have used 40 degrees water through the resin and it seems
to last a year nearly in a 25 litre vessel eerhh!! so whats the problem and 25 degrees in the winter months!!!
We use 500/600 litres a day 5 days a week
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ps windowwashers look on tinternet for webasto and buy direct about £995.00
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Vedd, 40c is within spec so will have no effect, it is when you go above the max spec then you may well have probs.
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vedd is that just di or with a ro??
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ps windowwashers look on tinternet for webasto and buy direct about £995.00
Hi V8edd, cheers for that, by that comment you must be from up north somewhere, anyway.
what one is the one to get there seems to be quite a few on there :-\
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this is an old pic of my own customised thermopure creation I would recommend the Webasto thermo 90 s
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Nice system Vedd but you may as well have got a DIY setup in the first place with a retro fit hot add on for £2500 from omnipole.
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Most of Purolite MB400 which we buy for window cleaning is regenerated, when it is regenerated then 60c is max. When it is pure virgin the 100c is max.
Best have a word with the manufacturing company direct to find out the true impact.
When I spoke to Thermax and I was worrying about temp etc.. they informed me if it reaches a certain temp then the resin cracks. The same can be said about freezing temp when you leave your di vessle in the van, this has an impact on your resin as well.
It looks to me that Non-Regenerable means that it can't be reused, not that it has been reused. I would take that to mean if you are going to regenerate the resin then 60c is the maximum heat the water can be, and if you have no intention of regenerating it then 100c would be the maximum heat the water can be. I would think according to the spec sheet that you could actually put boiling water through the DI if you had no intention of regenerating the resin afterwards.
If the above is correct and what you heard was correct the water between 60c-100c may indeed crack or split the resin into smaller particles with no ill effect on the resin while in use. But may be detrimental to the resin should you try to regenerate it.
Peter
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v8edd, is that a header tank in the picture, the thing at the front with the blue and grey pipe going in?
Peter
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Question for the hot water users. I can see the benefit of hot water and am seriously considering moding my system to take hot water when I eventually get a different van.
Would putting a fish tank heater in my static tank to heat the water over night be okay? So I would pump warm water into my van tank. And what temperature would you recommend?
Simon.
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I would say it would be better in the summer when you can use the water as hot as you like on the windows without fear of cracking them,if your going to use a hot system you might as well have the water hot as and when you can ie not freezing cold mornings as it will break the glass.In the winter months if it`s to cold you can`t use it to hot anyway can you?.
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Question for the hot water users. I can see the benefit of hot water and am seriously considering moding my system to take hot water when I eventually get a different van.
Would putting a fish tank heater in my static tank to heat the water over night be okay? So I would pump warm water into my van tank. And what temperature would you recommend?
Simon.
Cant see a fish tank heater doing anything to the water, if it did it would kill fish wouldnt it. would have to be a very big heater though :-\
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No, the heat loss is too great.
NWH, what a stupid reply.
In really cold weather my current system does only reach the glass luke warm.
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What temp ?
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What`s the point in selling a hot water system for cold winter months then,that`s the marketing strategy they use.LOL if it`s to cold outside ie freezing you can`t use it as it will crack glass,did you pay 10-12k for a luke warm water system.It would be far more effective in warmer weather as you can use hotter water.I can get the water in my tank lukewarm by doing 20 miles on the way to work with the heater flat out.
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I`m not against hot systems i myself want one,what i`m saying is can you use it when it`s cold mornings without worry of damage to windows if so how hot can you go.Can you give me a better low down on the price for one in real terms i`m not talking about what they tell you on the phone,and do you see a better-quicker result on regular cleans aswell,what i meant was why buy it if it can`t be used on cold mornings. :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Luke warm does a great job. The hose behaves likes it's summer, the whole experience is pleasanter, easier on your part and requires less effort.
How edd (vedd) cracks glass I don't know. My heat loss through the hose is massive. That's the problem I'm currently working on.
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Can you use minibore-microbore with hot or do you have to use normal hosepipe diameter.
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Using 30m of Algarde silicon micro bore and water at 38 degrees, the temp. will drop by approx 10 degrees at an air temp. of 4 degrees C, maybe a shorter hose will lose less.
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I use minibore.(100)m
I beleive (but don't know) that Vedd uses1/2 ionics hot hose. This must be what get's it to the glass so very hot.
From boiler to reel I have (after a couple of hours at pirtek) put 212c rated 9 bar heater hose on. Previously I used garden hose. After two weeks of use there was a pressure rupture, hence my switch. The heat loss out of this is massive(it;s black) and I am going to insulate it.
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Do the carpet cleaning guys use insulated hoses and how ? Big reel ?
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On another thread Alex said he would look into asking a hose supplier.
Pirtek don't know of anything.
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Luke warm does a great job. The hose behaves likes it's summer, the whole experience is pleasanter, easier on your part and requires less effort.
How edd (vedd) cracks glass I don't know. My heat loss through the hose is massive. That's the problem I'm currently working on.
Mr solubility, try this test, get a glass and put it in the freezer, boil kettle and pour some water in bowl, take glass out of freezer when very cold and place in very hot water, lot of the time this glass will break. and at this time of year glass is very cold
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Any suggestions about the insulation (boiler to reel). Ordinary pipe lagging, silver tape, silver paper?
I think this is a big heat loss and a seperate issue to the hose on the reel.
Someone should invent a diy forum where we can get all these answers.
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peterf NO its the heat exchanger the header tank is the big black one with 2
brass drain plugs in in the top left of machine
hot water cycles through the heat exchanger and into the header tank and the cold water goes through the heat exchanger and comes out bloody hot then into the thermostate to regulate the temp to what I what
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I insulate the hose from tank to hosereel with reflective silver foil bubble wrap type tape.
I,ve also insulated the hosereel with silver reflective bubble wrap so that the hose that is wound onto the hosereel does not lose any heat.
All I would like for Xmas is Gardiner pole systems to say that they've spoke with their supplier of minibore hose and that they can manufacture minibore hose with 1 or 2 silver reflective layers to retain the heat that passes through their hose and that it can be on sale to us hot WFP users before the winter ends ;)
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Any suggestions about the insulation (boiler to reel). Ordinary pipe lagging, silver tape, silver paper?
I think this is a big heat loss and a seperate issue to the hose on the reel.
Someone should invent a diy forum where we can get all these answers.
B&Q does the foil bubbles wrap insutation it is thin but very good for heat loss, I have some to put on my houses in the van.
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Luke warm does a great job. The hose behaves likes it's summer, the whole experience is pleasanter, easier on your part and requires less effort.
How edd (vedd) cracks glass I don't know. My heat loss through the hose is massive. That's the problem I'm currently working on.
Mr solubility, try this test, get a glass and put it in the freezer, boil kettle and pour some water in bowl, take glass out of freezer when very cold and place in very hot water, lot of the time this glass will break. and at this time of year glass is very cold
Last year I left a pole resting against a bedroom window sill and drove home. Customer phoned to say my brush was where I left it, so I arranged to collect it the following morning. When I got there my pole had actually frozen to the window sill and I had to get a ladder and a kettle of hot water just to remove it from the window sill. Took a good hour thawing in the sun before I could use it again.
Hot water on glass can crack glass because of the thermo shock.
When cold WFP users are waiting for the day to warm up because they can't get the water to go through the hose that goes up through their WFpoles (because it has frozen), the hot WFP users can continue to work using tepid to warm water without the hassles.
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Hot water on glass can crack glass because of the thermo shock.
When cold WFP users are waiting for the day to warm up because they can't get the water to go through the hose that goes up through their WFpoles (because it has frozen), the hot WFP users can continue to work using tepid to warm water without the hassles.
Glass pane @ zero, tepid water at 20 degrees max to avoid shock, does it actually clean any better than cold water though ?
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Don`t get me wrong wayne i do want a hot system and i understand where your coming from but i didn`t have any days off last year because it was to cold to work,i want to know the cleaning advantages ie quicker than cold in general and is it quicker on regular cleans.I`m not interested in gimmicks i want it to earn me money.
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I can't give you the technical answer as to why hot water cleans windows better than cold.
All I know is that it is easier to remove grease and oils from Sunday cooking utensils, roasting trays, etc in the washing up bowl using hot rather than cold water with the help of some fairy liquid or whatever else one chooses to use.
Perhaps it has something to do with water expanding when it's hot and being less dense.
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Grease in the washing up bowl is removed softened by the chemical not the fact that its warm.
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Forgety the gimmicks of hot water to cold. Does it do a better job, etc. Yes it cleans windows quicker without a doubt. Is it easier to do an initial clean on a house with really filthy glass and frames - DEFINITELY and quicker.
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Which one have you got wayne and how much please.
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and is it quicker on regular cleans.I`m not interested in gimmicks i want it to earn me money.
Thats what I want to know as well ? http://d.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=5857&sid=9d15e1d76d04912b61ed8c32609974d1
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Grease in the washing up bowl is removed softened by the chemical not the fact that its warm.
I agree with that. If you put two identically dirty cups/mugs in two seperate bowls of water, one hot and one cold bowl and leave for 5 mins and take them out, the one that has been in the hot water is cleaner in comparison. Why..........don't ask me.
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Which one have you got wayne and how much please.
At the moment I am using my twin coil 75 litre calorifier with a 2kw immersion heater built in. Next Thursday I am having Omnipole's hot water system installed up London at a cost of £2500 +VAT but doing it on a lease (for tax purposes), with an additional payment to own the equipment.
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I spoke to them last week about the one your having,he told me that i would have to go up there and let him look at the van so he could put the unit in the van and see where it would be suited to go,he said it would take a day to fit it.I asked him if they were reliable and he said every now and again you might have to reset the thermostat.
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Luke warm does a great job. The hose behaves likes it's summer, the whole experience is pleasanter, easier on your part and requires less effort.
How edd (vedd) cracks glass I don't know. My heat loss through the hose is massive. That's the problem I'm currently working on.
Mr solubility, try this test, get a glass and put it in the freezer, boil kettle and pour some water in bowl, take glass out of freezer when very cold and place in very hot water, lot of the time this glass will break. and at this time of year glass is very cold
If property has central heating, then the glass is not usually all that cold. The hot stops the water from freezing in the hose. This is a big plus.
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Luke warm does a great job. The hose behaves likes it's summer, the whole experience is pleasanter, easier on your part and requires less effort.
How edd (vedd) cracks glass I don't know. My heat loss through the hose is massive. That's the problem I'm currently working on.
Mr solubility, try this test, get a glass and put it in the freezer, boil kettle and pour some water in bowl, take glass out of freezer when very cold and place in very hot water, lot of the time this glass will break. and at this time of year glass is very cold
If property has central heating, then the glass is not usually all that cold. The hot stops the water from freezing in the hose. This is a big plus.
if it has single glazing yes, thats true
if the house has double glazing, the outside pane wil be cold
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peterf NO its the heat exchanger the header tank is the big black one with 2
brass drain plugs in in the top left of machine
hot water cycles through the heat exchanger and into the header tank and the cold water goes through the heat exchanger and comes out bloody hot then into the thermostate to regulate the temp to what I what
Thanks, yes I see that now.
Peter
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I just want hot WFP to keep my hands warm!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Whats the maximum temperature of water you can send through the pump and will a continueous flow of heated water damage a pump
Dean
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Luke warm does a great job. The hose behaves likes it's summer, the whole experience is pleasanter, easier on your part and requires less effort.
How edd (vedd) cracks glass I don't know. My heat loss through the hose is massive. That's the problem I'm currently working on.
Mr solubility, try this test, get a glass and put it in the freezer, boil kettle and pour some water in bowl, take glass out of freezer when very cold and place in very hot water, lot of the time this glass will break. and at this time of year glass is very cold
If property has central heating, then the glass is not usually all that cold. The hot stops the water from freezing in the hose. This is a big plus.
if it has single glazing yes, thats true
if the house has double glazing, the outside pane wil be cold
That is partially true. Although double glazing is nov 100 percent efficient.
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Dean, Designed to take, 40psi pumps 40 degrees, 100psi pumps 60 degrees.
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On demand is after pump ;)
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I just want hot WFP to keep my hands warm!!! ;D ;D ;D
get some gloves it's cheaper :P
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Luke warm does a great job. The hose behaves likes it's summer, the whole experience is pleasanter, easier on your part and requires less effort.
How edd (vedd) cracks glass I don't know. My heat loss through the hose is massive. That's the problem I'm currently working on.
Mr solubility, try this test, get a glass and put it in the freezer, boil kettle and pour some water in bowl, take glass out of freezer when very cold and place in very hot water, lot of the time this glass will break. and at this time of year glass is very cold
On a regular basis in the winter I use very hot water from the kettle to defrost the ice on the van windscreen, and have never cracked one yet. I also used to use hot water in winter when I used to clean traditional, and again never a cracked window.
I know the glass on a vehicle is different but it is cold glass. And I am sure the glass on new double glazed window is pretty thick.
I might try that out with a double glazed unit when the weather gets a bit colder.
Peter
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I start in the middle when defrosting the van and slowly move outwards also defrosting the inside and I too have never cracked a windscreen either the old screens or the new ones. Maybe do the same with a hotwash ? Good thoughts Peter, needs some more input.
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Just a note. The lady from concept 2o insisted that 60 degrees will not crack double glazing. She said turn it to 40 for conservatorys and off for single glazing.
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Another note. I hope you noted Alex is on the case. ;)
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Another note. I hope you noted Alex is on the case. ;)
I am as well, and should have a good reasonably priced hot water system on the market in the next couple of weeks.
I think you will see quite a few hot water system come on the market in the next year.
Peter
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Next couple of weeks?
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That wasn't a dig at you peter- although I do tend to dig a bit- I was wondering at some of your posts. How can you think hot water damages glass? The only circs i can imagine is where a pane is held in by four very tight nails, but not many are put in that way these days.
Similarly you seem very concerned with the operational temp of resin.
If you shared some of your thinking with us we might be able to help. Now that you've blabbed you might as well spill the rest of it.
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No hot water system development for me! I'm just looking into a new type of hose for them.
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I've being doing some work on the marketing side Peter, and it's quite interesting. If you look at the two brand leaders in hot systems, they sell something and then the person who buys it, the operator, does nothing but promote them(the original manufacturer)and their system.
People think they have all the terms phrases and marketing what not sewn up. They don't.
Can you remember the formula for making money?Find a way of adding value, a hot system?, and then tell people about it.
So go on, tell us a bit more about the engineering.
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That wasn't a dig at you peter- although I do tend to dig a bit- I was wondering at some of your posts. How can you think hot water damages glass? The only circs i can imagine is where a pane is held in by four very tight nails, but not many are put in that way these days.
Similarly you seem very concerned with the operational temp of resin.
If you shared some of your thinking with us we might be able to help. Now that you've blabbed you might as well spill the rest of it.
I never took it as a dig at me.
I never thought hot water damages glass; I was reading with interest all the post stating that it does. I was the one who uses hot water to defrost my windscreen, and in my bucket traditional.
Again with the resin, I have been telling everyone for years that hot water is better for resin than cold water.
To put the picture straight, I have also been telling everyone for years that hot water would be no benefit as far as normal window cleaning is concerned, and I don't believe it is a benefit, not as far as any work I did was concerned. I do say that on windows not been cleaned for years, then hot water would be a benefit.
The reason I am developing a hot water system is purely down to demand, and the fact that there could be a very cold winter. In a very cold winter a hot water system will keep you working longer than a cold water system. There is also a lot of talk every winter about keeping the inside of vans frost free, and the same hot water system will do that as well.
So to sum it up a hot water system with an antifrost which will protect the inside of the van, would be a good thing to provide for anyone wanting to work when others may not be able to.
Peter
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Your reasons are well thought out.
You're wrong IMO about no or little benefit.
There's a massive benefit you haven't spotted, and this wil drive the demand
So it's a diesel system then?
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I didn't put that very well. I'll try again, what i mean is that you personaly Peter have made some big contibutions to the developement of wfp. Your brush, your various patents. I'm sure that many businesses started by copying you.
As you suggest wfp may be on the brink of another big sea change, and that is the widespread availability and use of hot systems.
Only today a customer(she was visiting my customer) complained to me that her window cleaner left her windows all spotty. 'But he only had a barrel thingy, not like you, he didn't have hot water...'
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Only today a customer(she was visiting my customer) complained to me that her window cleaner left her windows all spotty. 'But he only had a barrel thingy, not like you, he didn't have hot water...'
Or do you mean a van mount ???? you left yourself wide open for that did she really sy hot water or was that your added bit to it ?
someone with a trolley could well have hot water, no does not look as impressive as a van mount, then it does cost alot less so wouldnt IMO
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I really like the look of the hot water system that they sell on the link from this site the concept 20,it`s the best looking one i`ve seen.Plus i like the idea of gas as it`s heat on demand and cheaper to run.
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That's my point WW. I didn't speak to her she spoke to me.
How did she know that I had hot water?
How did she know her chap didn't?
I had just done a house nearby, but there was no steam visible, so how did she know? Not only that, why was it so important to her?
I'll give you a clue. She was the first person ever to tell me i had hot water, and it was my first day out since my rebranding.
Again today new customer by phone in a remote village quote (£15) start explaining cuts me short- yes i can see that will be great-. Comes out after I've finished(under 20 mins) to tell me what a marvelous job i've done.
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I really like the look of the hot water system that they sell on the link from this site the concept 20,it`s the best looking one i`ve seen.Plus i like the idea of gas as it`s heat on demand and cheaper to run.
Concept20 have it hands down on looks, then it is designed by a lady (and not knocking that at all) looks very good close up ;)
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Concept2O's offering has a minimum flow rate of 2.4 litres a minute doesn't it??? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm sure I read that somewhere. Isn't that a bit wasteful?
I'd like the option to recycle hot water into the tank on a cold evening to keep the van frost free overnight,.. but other than that I'd only ever want to heat the water as I use it, and minimise the running costs. Why heat the whole tank if you'll only use half of it that day?
I much prefer the idea of the diesel heaters by webasto and eberspacher. They're cheaper too!
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That's my point WW. I didn't speak to her she spoke to me.
How did she know that I had hot water?
How did she know her chap didn't?
I had just done a house nearby, but there was no steam visible, so how did she know? Not only that, why was it so important to her?
I'll give you a clue. She was the first person ever to tell me i had hot water, and it was my first day out since my rebranding.
Again today new customer by phone in a remote village quote (£15) start explaining cuts me short- yes i can see that will be great-. Comes out after I've finished(under 20 mins) to tell me what a marvelous job i've done.
Hook line sinker is what I would say to that m8, fair play to you, I am not knocking you at all.
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Your reasons are well thought out.
You're wrong IMO about no or little benefit.
There's a massive benefit you haven't spotted, and this wil drive the demand
So it's a diesel system then?
Yes a diesel system, but one that uses a lot of the heat wasted by the heat genarated from the vehicle engine.
Peter
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Now there is a good idea. Some kind of heat exchanger perhaps maybe coming from the heat of the exhaust. Could heat a smaller tank or reservoir whilst driving between jobs. Sounds difficult but the running costs would be minimal.
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There is two ways it can be done, one like you say from the exhaust, and the other from the cooling system. If you do quite a bit of driving you would have free hot water, and if not the diesel heater kicks in. The diesel heater is also used overnight to keep the van interior frost free.
Peter
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The internal heater on most vehicles runs off a heat exchanger that takes heat from the vehicles cooling system. Its quite easy to get hold of one that is small enough to go into your WFP tank just by lowering it into the top, without modifying the tank. I've one off a 2002 Celica that fits perfect.
All you need is for a mechanic to run hoses (Heatproof!) from the tank to the heater under the dashboard in the van. The heat output isn't massive, but if you do a bit of driving it will definitely be enough to stop the tank freezing.
You would still need an "on demand" heater to boost the temp before it goes up the pole,.. unless you do an awful lot of driving
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The internal heater on most vehicles runs off a heat exchanger that takes heat from the vehicles cooling system. Its quite easy to get hold of one that is small enough to go into your WFP tank just by lowering it into the top, without modifying the tank. I've one off a 2002 Celica that fits perfect.
All you need is for a mechanic to run hoses (Heatproof!) from the tank to the heater under the dashboard in the van. The heat output isn't massive, but if you do a bit of driving it will definitely be enough to stop the tank freezing.
You would still need an "on demand" heater to boost the temp before it goes up the pole,.. unless you do an awful lot of driving
FREE HOT WATER:
I have fitted a 75 litre twin coil calorifier tank into the back of my van. I have it connected to the hot water outlet on my radiator so that the heat that would normally be dispersed through the radiator is instead passed through my calorifier tank and returned to the cold circulation side of the radiator hose where it is recirculated back through the engine block.
Inside my calorifier tank are two coils with a lot of fins which disperse the heat into the stored water encased in the calorifier which surrounds these two coils. The water that comes from the radiator is filled with a percentage of antifreeze/summer coolant to stop the engine block from freezing or overheating which then pass through the coils inside the calorifier tank. The water surrounding the coils I circulate around my WFP tank via a 12volt, 75psi shureflow pump.
On a long journey the water stored in the calorifier tank gets very hot. I can either leave this hot water to remain stored in the calorifier tank for 24 hours where it would remain hotter than if I circulated it through my very insulated WFP tank or I can transfer it to my WFP tank to use for the day. I have tried using the water straight from my calorifier tank straight to my WF pole but I find it tends to be too hot and the pressure builds up to quick and is likely to blow at the pressure relief valve which I fitted onto my calorifier tank. So for simplicity I use the heat from my calorifier tank by circulating it around my WFP tank instead.
To confuse you even further, in my calorifier tank I have a 2kw immersion heater element which I can connect to an electricity supply for heating the stored water in the calorifier, although it takes much longer to heat using the electric, then it would to have the engine running.
Using the immersion heater with electric cost money. Using the twin coil heat input from the engine costs me nothing if I'm travelling to and from work.
Hope this helps the DIY want to use hot water users :)
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It was minus 4 degrees outside this morning. My water was hot, my hose was lovely and soft and my pole wasn't frozen. I had a hassle free day working when all the local car washes had frozen up this morning. Oh and my hands were lovely and warm :) Worked today because I had Monday & Tuesday off this week :)
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The internal heater on most vehicles runs off a heat exchanger that takes heat from the vehicles cooling system. Its quite easy to get hold of one that is small enough to go into your WFP tank just by lowering it into the top, without modifying the tank. I've one off a 2002 Celica that fits perfect.
All you need is for a mechanic to run hoses (Heatproof!) from the tank to the heater under the dashboard in the van. The heat output isn't massive, but if you do a bit of driving it will definitely be enough to stop the tank freezing.
You would still need an "on demand" heater to boost the temp before it goes up the pole,.. unless you do an awful lot of driving
FREE HOT WATER:
I have fitted a 75 litre twin coil calorifier tank into the back of my van. I have it connected to the hot water outlet on my radiator so that the heat that would normally be dispersed through the radiator is instead passed through my calorifier tank and returned to the cold circulation side of the radiator hose where it is recirculated back through the engine block.
Inside my calorifier tank are two coils with a lot of fins which disperse the heat into the stored water encased in the calorifier which surrounds these two coils. The water that comes from the radiator is filled with a percentage of antifreeze/summer coolant to stop the engine block from freezing or overheating which then pass through the coils inside the calorifier tank. The water surrounding the coils I circulate around my WFP tank via a 12volt, 75psi shureflow pump.
On a long journey the water stored in the calorifier tank gets very hot. I can either leave this hot water to remain stored in the calorifier tank for 24 hours where it would remain hotter than if I circulated it through my very insulated WFP tank or I can transfer it to my WFP tank to use for the day. I have tried using the water straight from my calorifier tank straight to my WF pole but I find it tends to be too hot and the pressure builds up to quick and is likely to blow at the pressure relief valve which I fitted onto my calorifier tank. So for simplicity I use the heat from my calorifier tank by circulating it around my WFP tank instead.
To confuse you even further, in my calorifier tank I have a 2kw immersion heater element which I can connect to an electricity supply for heating the stored water in the calorifier, although it takes much longer to heat using the electric, then it would to have the engine running.
Using the immersion heater with electric cost money. Using the twin coil heat input from the engine costs me nothing if I'm travelling to and from work.
Hope this helps the DIY want to use hot water users :)
thats what was discussed on the DIY forum last year, some1 said they were going to try it and we never heard from them again , was it you ? ?? ?
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It was me who suggested it on here in the first place under the name of Easy Clean :)
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Well done I like simple.
What temperature at the brush do you prefer to work with Wayne.
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This is turning into a very hot and interesting thread. You explained your set up very well Wayne although i couldn't follow all of it. Any chance of any pictures?
This is teamwork. I'm not very practical but i do have a grasp of the marketing.If you want to build a round of upper echeleon customers at break neck speed then strap yourself in and hit the belief button
Does anyone actually know how the concept02 system works. The point about the minimum flow rate is fine, i work with a high flow rate and because the water is hot it simply means fewer strokes and less effort, that parts a no brainer.I believe it use's an infinity26i heater, but where is this in the system/ where is the fuel located and how do you refeul? what advice is given on insurance?
From what I understand they are expensive to buy but once you've got one the running costs are very low, and they work brilliantly.
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the concept 2o works by giving your vehicle an lpg conversion but instead it just powers the heater, Luke
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Good to see you talking to me Luke.
So you mean it's got one of those tanks they use in lpg cars fitted and you can fill up at the garage?
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yes, it goes in the spare wheel place, but it must fill up somewhere else! I spoke to them a few weeks ago about it, Luke
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if the lpg just powers the heater, you might aswell just use a lpg gas bottle
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Now you're talking to me too Matt, this is great. You are more practical than me.
I didn't know about the lpg conversion(thanks Luke), this must cost money rather than just using a gas bottle, so is there a chance that there might be a reason for it such as health and safety, legal complaince, or an uninsurable risk?
Are you allowed to carry gas bottles Matt? Roofers and blacksmiths and many others do I know, I wonder what the ground rules are?
How much would an LPG conversion cost?( to power a heater)
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I would say around 700-1000 for the conversion, Luke
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It was me who suggested it on here in the first place under the name of Easy Clean :)
:)
i was sure i hadnt dreamt it ;)
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Well done I like simple.
What temperature at the brush do you prefer to work with Wayne.
Hello Jeff:
I like to work with water between 25 to 40 as a rule but I make exceptions like when it's freezing like this morning the sills were covered in a layer of ice so not too warm.
In the summer I like it hot as I can manage. I transfer the water from my static through 3 solar water panels (which I bought off ebay cheap), into my van so my water is warm before I've even started to circulate the water from my calorifier.
Another tip is: in the summer when I'm cleaning large properties that take at least an hour or two, I connect large black hose between my hosereel and my waterfed pole but make sure it lays in the sun the whole time I'm working so the sun aids in the heating of my water (free of charge). As you know Black absorbs heat from the sun but quickly loses it in the shade & Silver reflects and retains heat which is why teapots and insulation materials are silver.
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Taking heat from the vehicle is a great idea,... pity 95% of my work is within 2 miles of my house, so it wouldn't do much for me. :( :'(
Glad to know ppl have tried it and it works that well though!
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I am preheating my water to 35-40 on our house storage radiators aint tried the solars yet, cheers.
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In the summer you can paint some old radiators black, leave them on a garage roof or against a fence or something where the sun beats down on them and link them inline after your DI container to your insulated static tank then transfer warm, not cold water into your van mount tank :)
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LESS THAN FOUR cylinders are to be carried:
* Cylinders should be loaded in a single layer and secured to prevent movement.
* The cylinders must be upright.
* Flammable gas danger warning diamonds should be displayed at the rear and on both sides of the van.
* carry a dry powder extinguisher
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seriously
a LPG job just for a heater is a massive waste of money
you could even fit a gas locker for alot less
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LESS THAN FOUR cylinders are to be carried:
* Cylinders should be loaded in a single layer and secured to prevent movement.
* The cylinders must be upright.
* Flammable gas danger warning diamonds should be displayed at the rear and on both sides of the van.
* carry a dry powder extinguisher
I learnt something tonight as I use to display the flammable diamond warning signs on the front and rear of my van. I didn't realise you had to display them on the sides.
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What's a gas locker?
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Just a thought, but does warm water encourage legionares desease?
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What's a gas locker?
its a hole cut in your van, you fit a locker ( with door ) , the door is outside the van and its vented outside
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Just a thought, but does warm water encourage legionares desease?
Yes if stored unused, in the right conditions to grow. You can sterilise the water by passing it through ultra violet light, (I think that's right). You can buy a chamber which the water passes through which sterilises the water. Legionaires disease is harmful if passed as fine droplets carried in the wind. A lot is known about Legionaires disease but little is known about Legionaires whilst working with WFP, as this method of cleaning is still relatively new especially regarding hot water use.
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Just wondered 'cos when the light catches your stream it is suprising the amount of vapour drifting about.
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If my bottle is near the rear door would that do?
If not who would do a gas locker conversion?
This looks to me like some kind of compliance with a british standard, but i did notice that even the wiley usa wfp user gave a cagey responce.
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Wayne, what quantity of water do you heat using the immersion ?
Any one know where to get the old style 2" immersions rarther than the 2 1/2" ones ?
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Running pure water through old radiators painted black? Black hose pipe's to catch the sun? Free energy from the engine block?Running pure through solar panels?
You are bonkers, and have clouded a sensible disscusion with marginal alternative therapy type hogwash.
My conclusions from this thread are.
An lpg on demand system is the superior method with lower capitol and running costs and better results.
An lpg conversion may be necessary.
An outside flue is reqiured.
Any installation must be done by a corgi qualified engineer.
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Running pure water through old radiators painted black? Black hose pipe's to catch the sun? Free energy from the engine block?Running pure through solar panels?
You are bonkers, and have clouded a sensible disscusion with marginal alternative therapy type hogwash.
My conclusions from this thread are.
An lpg on demand system is the superior method with lower capitol and running costs and better results.
An lpg conversion may be necessary.
An outside flue is reqiured.
Any installation must be done by a corgi qualified engineer.
I have to disagree. Not only is using solar panels etc environmentally responsible and surprisingly effective, its also a great marketing ploy and will bring you lots of new customers.
I personally think you will still need an "on demand" heater as well in many circumstances, but it won't have to do half as much work.
My personal plans include rainwater harvesting, solar pre-heating and a diesel "on demand" heater.
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Surely an on demand system as used in a caravan/motorhome does the same job or could be adapted? just throw a switch when needed and only use hot when nessessary. The customer won't know what temperature your water is (especially if they are out). Then you have the advantage of marketing a hot system and probably only use it 5% of the time. Very cheap then.
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The caravan showers are very easy to install and use, and fully thermostatic. The disadvantage is that most of them cut out after 20 minutes of use as a built in safety feature!
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But who runs their water for twenty minutes - don't they flair up when the tap is opened and shut off when the flow is turned off?
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Yep, the heater switches on automatically when the water starts, and then turns off when the water stops. But my main interest in a hot system would be for 1st cleans and cladding cleans,... where I'd be going for a lot more than 20 minutes at a time! You can get a propane powered caravan shower for about £60 + shipping off ebay USA, you just need to add a flue kit (Or leave your van open while its switched on!). They run off 2 "D" batteries, so you don't even need to worry about electrical's,.. just the gas installation!
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Have a look at Concept2o's web site and you can see the flue going up through the van roof.
http://www.concept2o-franchise.co.uk/contribution.htm
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But who runs their water for twenty minutes - don't they flair up when the tap is opened and shut off when the flow is turned off?
I have had water going for well over an hour without stopping on a commercial job
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The Omnipole one holds 20 litres in the heater and flairs up as the temp drop, thermostat controlled coming out of van temp was 38 running throught 100 metres of mirco 28 seems hot enough for the job
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Wayne, what quantity of water do you heat using the immersion ?
Any one know where to get the old style 2" immersions rarther than the 2 1/2" ones ?
Jeff:
I can heat 75 litres of water that is stored in my calorifier tank using the built in immersion heater.
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Running pure water through old radiators painted black? Black hose pipe's to catch the sun? Free energy from the engine block?Running pure through solar panels?
You are bonkers, and have clouded a sensible disscusion with marginal alternative therapy type hogwash.
My conclusions from this thread are.
An lpg on demand system is the superior method with lower capitol and running costs and better results.
An lpg conversion may be necessary.
An outside flue is reqiured.
Any installation must be done by a corgi qualified engineer.
Running almost pure water through radiators painted black or through solar water panels and then through DI bottles into your insulated static storage tank which can be transfered into your van mount is not mad.
How do you think people with swimming pools heat them up? Certainly not with a diesel or LPG heater as they would end up penniless and skint.
I suggested a few good ideas which I use myself in the summer to make the most use of the sun and after initial set up costs (i.e. some cheap solar water panels, or paint some radiators black, or a very long length of black hose left in the sun and connect it after your RO but before your DI bottles) it's a DIY route that others on here can use affordably without any running costs involved.
You can slag me off all you want as it doesn't offend me as I like a chuckle but my van mount tank contains warmish water (during the summer) from transfering water from my static tank so I don't need to heat my water as much to get to the desired temperature that you would need to using your heater.
Mr Solubility I look forward to your next constructive critism :)
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But who runs their water for twenty minutes - don't they flair up when the tap is opened and shut off when the flow is turned off?
I have had water going for well over an hour without stopping on a commercial job
Don't you turn your flow off between windows then?
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But who runs their water for twenty minutes - don't they flair up when the tap is opened and shut off when the flow is turned off?
I have had water going for well over an hour without stopping on a commercial job
Don't you turn your flow off between windows then?
if I move yes, if they are hundereds of windows Infront of me I just clean clean clean
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Where do you get black hose from? do you have to spread it over the lawn to catch the sun and then collect it in later? the old black painted radiators where do you site them? the old solar panels, is the water still pure when it has been through them?
Then it sits in your ibc tank, how long for?doesn't it chill?
Hot water at point of delivery is the criteria, nothing else matters, and these ideas are batty.
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Where do you get black hose from? do you have to spread it over the lawn to catch the sun and then collect it in later? the old black painted radiators where do you site them? the old solar panels, is the water still pure when it has been through them?
Then it sits in your ibc tank, how long for?doesn't it chill?
Hot water at point of delivery is the criteria, nothing else matters, and these ideas are batty.
Mr Solubility
why did you change your name ????
I have been wondering why you feel the need to swipe at me, am even more confused as I knwo know who you are ???
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I'm confused too, where's the swipe?
I never doubted you knew me.
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I'm confused too, where's the swipe?
I never doubted you knew me.
Oh trust me I did not know, and the swipes look abck at your posts to me m8, i dont mind i take all on board makes me a stronger person ;)
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Mr Solubility I look forward to your next constructive critism :)
he doesnt do constructive critism, its only critism im afraid ::)
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Now now people! Luke
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That's not nice to hear Matt. I honestly can't remember having a go at ww. But i can see he's pee'd off.
Some of my comments to you haven't been appreciated, and I accept that, but mainly I post about the topic.
just proving a point
the point, its easy to have your type of "digs" easy enough
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His name is a scientific term, water fed pole associated. To do with solids dissolved in liquids, Luke
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His name is a scientific term, water fed pole associated. To do with solids dissolved in liquids, Luke
errrrm lost me, I am thinking Rupert the bear and honey, I'm well lost ???
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I've actually had the name Rupert longer than the old one, I originate from the Aquatec forum! Luke
your other one was Luke wasnt it Luke ??
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Yeah, if you get sick of this dump just take break from it, Luke
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One thing I love about this site is all the slanging, digs and knocking at one another. It's always good for a chuckle, cheers lads :)
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Running pure water through old radiators painted black? Black hose pipe's to catch the sun? Free energy from the engine block?Running pure through solar panels?
You are bonkers, and have clouded a sensible disscusion with marginal alternative therapy type hogwash.
My conclusions from this thread are.
An lpg on demand system is the superior method with lower capitol and running costs and better results.
An lpg conversion may be necessary.
An outside flue is reqiured.
Any installation must be done by a corgi qualified engineer.
Running almost pure water through radiators painted black or through solar water panels and then through DI bottles into your insulated static storage tank which can be transfered into your van mount is not mad.
How do you think people with swimming pools heat them up? Certainly not with a diesel or LPG heater as they would end up penniless and skint.
I suggested a few good ideas which I use myself in the summer to make the most use of the sun and after initial set up costs (i.e. some cheap solar water panels, or paint some radiators black, or a very long length of black hose left in the sun and connect it after your RO but before your DI bottles) it's a DIY route that others on here can use affordably without any running costs involved.
You can slag me off all you want as it doesn't offend me as I like a chuckle but my van mount tank contains warmish water (during the summer) from transfering water from my static tank so I don't need to heat my water as much to get to the desired temperature that you would need to using your heater.
Mr Solubility I look forward to your next constructive critism :)
Wayne,... I for one think it's a great idea,... any chance you'd post some pics of your setup?
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Could you just add a large immersion element to the tank to heat the water
one that you could turn on and off as you need it
Dean
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Could you just add a large immersion element to the tank to heat the water
one that you could turn on and off as you need it
Dean
You could. It would have to be made of inca-alloy or stainless steel though. www.andwat.co.uk sells them. They drink the electric as he sells the 3Kw version for around £300 inc VAT & Postage I think.
If you leave it plugged in too long and the water in the tank gets too hot you'll distort it out of shape and eventually it will leak (with constant overheating).
Also beware you don't draw too many amps from your 13amp extension cable making sure it's fully unwound, otherwise you'll overload it because most are only rated at 3120 watts (unwound)and the heater draws 3000watts.
Also beware if you plug it into a socket that has been made a spur (extension socket in the wall from an original) otherwise you could be drawing too many amps
elsewhere without realising it.
It will heat the tank sufficiently but it's an expensive way of heating the water.
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Could it not be wired into the van electrics or fit an extra battery and use that?
Dean