Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Jeff Brimble on November 09, 2007, 07:05:42 pm
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This poll is open to non wfp users.
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2.5 x 2.5 is perfect for downstairs windows,fully extended it allows you to do windows above doors etc.
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Jeff i wouldn't want a groundfloor pole but i would want a telescopic that went down to between three and four feet and extended to over twelve and was stiff and light as a modular and never wore at the joins and never embedded fibreglass shards in my hands ...... oh and cost less than a hundred pounds. ;)
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Not voted as I have two. I have a 2 x 2ft and a 2 x 3ft. When it is tight for room the 2 x 2 is handy but when I need extra reach the 2 x 3 is better.
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The ideal ground floor pole is one you can also use on higher windows as most properties have some higher windows.
We have a 9ft X-Tel which is perfect for ground floor work, but can also reach quite a lot of low first floor windows, ideal for bungalows with the odd higher window.
I also have a prototype pole in use that is about 5ft when closed and is light enough to use on all ground floor work (which I have been doing all week), but will also reach 30ft as well. It's telescopic, has clamps and only weighs 1400g (oh and its stiffer than an E2).
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for me its my modified hybryd 25 cut down by 8 inches on each section use it all time up and down
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I think mines a streamline it's very short and light, three section it might be 12' extended. What I would like Alex or Sair is an extendor I could put on to give it another three or four feet. This extender would be a great product and could be used with any pole.
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Do you mean a telscopic that could have a modular plug in extension to go 4ft higher ?
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Sounds great - you're tapping my phone calls are you? :)
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just adding input and trying to make people think.
If you had one 4ft extension, why not 5 or 10, but where would you keep/carry them ?
If you had one 4ft extension how would you get it to fit all poles ?
how about a 3 section modular c/f top piece with a 5 section parallel telescopic removeable base ?
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I have two for ground floor work, I sometimes need a very short one when I am working in confined areas, the insides of glass balconys and conservatories that are close to a wall. Dai
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(oh and its stiffer than an E2).
Careful Alex they dont like it up em ya know ;D ;D ;)
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I've a 7 section clamp-less telescopic 24' pole that closes down to about 4', and I just got a couple of 6 section 20' poles that are the same. Perfect for domestic, I use them for 95% of my work.
At less than £25 a piece,.. you can't go wrong!
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I've a 7 section clamp-less telescopic 24' pole that closes down to about 4', and I just got a couple of 6 section 20' poles that are the same. Perfect for domestic, I use them for 95% of my work.
At less than £25 a piece,.. you can't go wrong!
please tell me more or where you got them from as this sounds good.
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;D ;D ;D
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;D ;D ;D
that helped lol, email me the details please if you dont want to add on here ::)
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Its a DIY one made from a telescopic windsock/flag pole.
The top 3 sections of the pole are too weak to use, so the 10 mtr pole will give you a 24' one,... the 9mtr pole will give you a 20' odd one.
Get the poles from Brian Penfold at www.skyblueleisure.co.uk
He's getting new 10mtr poles in next week, made to his specification, and stronger than the previous stock.
You run a 6mm ID PVC braided hose (£9.99 for 30mtrs on ebay) through the inside of the pole, and use it the same as Peter Fogwill's pole. Flick it up to the desired height, and hold it in place with your finger on the hose where it exits the base of the pole.
The poles do wear,.. and I'd expect to change it every 6 months or so,.. but at that price you can't complain!
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Its a DIY one made from a telescopic windsock/flag pole.
The top 3 sections of the pole are too weak to use, so the 10 mtr pole will give you a 24' one,... the 9mtr pole will give you a 20' odd one.
Get the poles from Brian Penfold at www.skyblueleisure.co.uk
He's getting new 10mtr poles in next week, made to his specification, and stronger than the previous stock.
You run a 6mm ID PVC braided hose (£9.99 for 30mtrs on ebay) through the inside of the pole, and use it the same as Peter Fogwill's pole. Flick it up to the desired height, and hold it in place with your finger on the hose where it exits the base of the pole.
The poles do wear,.. and I'd expect to change it every 6 months or so,.. but at that price you can't complain!
the hose you talk about which goes in the pole and feeds brush ect, I am trying to find out the right details for this as my Dad owns a few Aquatics shops and imports quite alot and from what i have seen on my poles and the new one I have it is the same thing he has on fish tanks and sells to others, cant wait to see him in a month ;D.
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When the hose goes up inside the pole, it needs to be a bit stiffer so it wont get tangled inside the sections. This hose should do the trick:
http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230159581605&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=013
1 roll will do 4 poles easy.
I normally buy a cheap broom (after checking the thread on the handle suits my angle adapters), and use the top 12" of the broom handle glued (Araldite is a great glue!) to the top section for strength. Drill a 12mm hole about 4" below the thread and feed the hose down through the pole.
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I also have a prototype pole in use that is about 5ft when closed and is light enough to use on all ground floor work (which I have been doing all week), but will also reach 30ft as well. It's telescopic, has clamps and only weighs 1400g (oh and its stiffer than an E2).
Wow sounds exciting, when will that be ready because that would mean we could stop carrying our Brodex pro long and xtels and just have two of them and the Super-lite 2!!!
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basic unger 2x3 supplied by cleantech endcone converted with ally boss works great reaches all i need to reach but being six foot four probably helps dont find much groundfloor i cant reach with it even big old georgian sashes
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Tucker 3 x 2ft pole is ideal for confined spaces and reaches most ground floor work apart from high reach split level bungalows :)
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Alex,
When do you expect them to be on general sale? And what will be the ballpark cost.
Al
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Alex why would you want a ground floor pole longer than 2 to 3 ft surely any thing more defeats the object how can a 4ft pole be any use on resi work on modern(post 1984) estates where houses classed as detatched only have to be a metre apart
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24ft facelift with angle neck & swivel, closed down will easily do all but the very tightest of bottom windows. i also have a 2x4ft extender for the odd tight situation.
tony
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macmac how! please tell me i am still quite new to this but could not get by without short pole(3ft closed) even it still tite some times
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macmac how! please tell me i am still quite new to this but could not get by without short pole(3ft closed) even it still tite some times
Closed down i would think the pole is about 6ft, it's the swivel & angle adaptor that allow you to work from the side as oppose to being stood in front of the window.
tony
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i have heard about angle/swivel necks they are good tools yes? what is idea not want to seem thick but how do they work are they free moving or adjust and lock for each angle dont laugh i still learning
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i have heard about angle/swivel necks they are good tools yes? what is idea not want to seem thick but how do they work are they free moving or adjust and lock for each angle dont laugh i still learning
The neck angle (up & down) is adjust & lock. the swivel (side to side) is free moving & moves as you twist the pole in situ.
tony
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sorry 8 bottles of specled hen make it hard to press right buttons any way cheers will talk to my local suppliers for info also does it work on upstairs?
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sorry 8 bottles of specled hen make it hard to press right buttons any way cheers will talk to my local suppliers for info also does it work on upstairs?
Yes, works in all situations, although for realy high work 40ft + i prefer just a rigid alloy goosneck without a swivel, for everything other than this it's tip top. ;)
tony
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I also have a prototype pole in use that is about 5ft when closed and is light enough to use on all ground floor work (which I have been doing all week), but will also reach 30ft as well. It's telescopic, has clamps and only weighs 1400g (oh and its stiffer than an E2).
Wow sounds exciting, when will that be ready because that would mean we could stop carrying our Brodex pro long and xtels and just have two of them and the Super-lite 2!!!
Alex,
When do you expect them to be on general sale? And what will be the ballpark cost.
Al
January. They will not be cheap as they really are top quality poles. They will be built to last for years of use, our first prototype has almost zero wear after 6 months of constant use. They also will be completely unique due to certain features which I cannot discuss until the design protection is fully in place.
Alex why would you want a ground floor pole longer than 2 to 3 ft surely any thing more defeats the object how can a 4ft pole be any use on resi work on modern(post 1984) estates where houses classed as detatched only have to be a metre apart
Believe it or not it is easier to clean ground floor windows with a 5ft pole than a 2-3ft pole. Once you have the technique sorted you end up cleaning a lot faster with less body movement and you also have much better leverage than with a short pole. I have got a 2x3ft pole with a Vikan brush on that was damaged (slightly) in transit to a client. When it was returned I thought that I might as well put it in my vehicle and use it, but I never do as it is far too short and ends up being too much like hard work. I do use it to clean my works vehicle though!
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I tried shorter poles,.. and ended up with wet feet!
The shortest I would go is 4' and I find it gets into even the awkward corners for me.
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Thanks for taking the time to reply, got a lot more than I expected.
As the topic shows an average one size fits all doesnt exist yet.We are individual problem solvers with different types of work. But maybe DaveW summed it up with
"I would want a telescopic that went down to between three and four feet and extended to over twelve and was stiff and light as a modular and never wore at the joins and never embedded fibreglass shards in my hands ...... oh and cost less than a hundred pounds "
When you buy your off the shelf pole/brush you excitedly start using it and it grows on you, it becomes your pole/brush of preference. For you it becomes your favourite.(bit like a bike) Its not until you find later that there are alternatives and work with them, that you realise that maybe you spent a lot of money on the wrong item (lighter bike). { I have}
Theres probably no way of knowing how the stats break down in the poll but it seems that the average favourite pole is between 3 and four, feet. So is this for use on the average house of maybe 2.2 beds and built in close confines of 2.5ft alleways with prams, bins, bric-a-brac and dog poo.
I put the 8ft pole in as a joke but then realised that I tried to get by with an 8ft telescopic with a fixed head, yes you can use it but its not easy.
Its only when you have the ability to click the brush off the pole and fit it to shorter top sections that you realise how constraining it was fixed to a pole with a through the pole hose, but maybe thats another topic.
Hope its made you all think and question the way you work and how to save time and make more profit. Demmand what you want from the manuf. dont take everything for granted and if your a manuf. look at the results.
8)
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Hope its made you all think and question the way you work and how to save time and make more profit. Demmand what you want from the manuf. dont take everything for granted and if your a manuf. look at the results.
I've thought, & i've questioned myself all day & still come to the same conclusion-
There's no way a modular pole is quicker on domestic, a telescopic pole that does both tops & bottoms with ease & a brush that will do everything so no need to change it is still the quickest & best way. ;)
Whip pole out of van - 3 seconds
Extend - 3 seconds
Clean - ????
Retract pole for bottoms - 3 seconds
Put pole in van - 3 seconds
Away, next job, no pole changes, no brush changes, no being ultra careful not to chip my delicate sections, no hassle.
tony
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Spot on Tony,modular poles especially the new ones are only worth getting out if the job is going to take a desent length of time,if the job is going to take 30-40 mins your wasting your time with the modular.I`m starting to think modular only has it`s place in the commercial sector,don`t get me wrong on large domestic houses they can be used with less fatigue but by and large i think there a commercial pole.With my 24ft carbon like you say it`s out the van in a second and extended in a couple,from turning on the varistream getting pole out and cleaning a window your talking 15secs.
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Spot on Tony,modular poles especially the new ones are only worth getting out if the job is going to take a desent length of time,if the job is going to take 30-40 mins your wasting your time with the modular.I`m starting to think modular only has it`s place in the commercial sector,don`t get me wrong on large domestic houses they can be used with less fatigue but by and large i think there a commercial pole.With my 24ft carbon like you say it`s out the van in a second and extended in a couple,from turning on the varistream getting pole out and cleaning a window your talking 15secs.
:-* :-*
This new telescopic pole of Alex's sounds interesting, looking forward to finding out more. You'll have to buy one anyway, to add to your wfp museum- sorry, shed!
;D ;D ;D
tony
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I certainly will Tony,i`m selling my S2 tomorrow i couldn`t get on with it.I`m sticking with the maver.
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If you prefer lightness over the extra weight of a telescopic, then a modular could be for you what ever time it takes to put up. One instance is if you have an injury RSI, sprain, if your a lady, etc.
Over reaching over a conservatory at a low angle is one situation that all pole users should take care.
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I've used modular and telescopic, currently using modular for everything, and trust me on this, once you are used to it, even on small accounts, using a modular is quick and easy.
On low work in confined spaces I simply pop off the top section of the pole, its only about 15 inches long, not long enough for anything other than stuff you could do trad without even an extension pole at all.
I would quite like a telescopic pole that is light and rigid, and good for about 18ft though.
Ian
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Hope its made you all think and question the way you work and how to save time and make more profit. Demmand what you want from the manuf. dont take everything for granted and if your a manuf. look at the results.
I've thought, & i've questioned myself all day & still come to the same conclusion-
There's no way a modular pole is quicker on domestic, a telescopic pole that does both tops & bottoms with ease & a brush that will do everything so no need to change it is still the quickest & best way. ;)
Whip pole out of van - 3 seconds
Extend - 3 seconds
Clean - ????
Retract pole for bottoms - 3 seconds
Put pole in van - 3 seconds
Away, next job, no pole changes, no brush changes, no being ultra careful not to chip my delicate sections, no hassle.
tony
I do agree with you Tony. For my own work I always use a telescopic for domestic work. It is quicker but not as light.
However, as Jeff says, if you have any kind of injury as some of our clients do then the lower weight is the crucial factor. We have clients that buy the modular Super-Lite following accidents where their physical therapists tell them that unless they use something as light as this, they will have to stop work. One of the chaps that works for us uses his Super-Lite for every job he does (50% domestic). This is because he has fibromyalgia in his neck and shoulders. If he didn't use this pole, he would have to give up work.
In developing our new telescopic pole (SL-X) we have tried to make the ideal pole for the average window cleaner (the Super-Lite being for high level and commercial work for the majority of users).
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If money were no object then a cut down carbon fibre (Facelift?) for everyday and a carbon Superlight for the high stuff. Unfortunately money is something i don't have in excess so its cheap modular carbon for domestic (£50 ish) much lighter than any glassfibre telescopic but a little slower to use. Then i keep the Superlight for best. I might add that since using modular i haven't had a single fibreglass splinter in my hands. ;)
ps. if it's speed you want then Tony is right. :)
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Don`t worry you WILL get spinters from modular poles and beleive me they are worse than fiber glass ones,the base of your sections obviously havn`t had enough use yet.The carbon splinters are almost invisible and painful,they have to work there way out of the skin,i know some will say wear gloves but that`s not happening in the summer is it.
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The base off every section i have taped so no chips or splinters yet after nine months of constant use. My first telescopic extender lasted five weeks. If you can afford it then buy the best, however fifty odd pounds sounds better than five hundred to me at the moment. When i have built up a bigger/better round then i can afford to go facelift or whatever untill then it's pretty much the diy route for me.
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The worse ones from modulars are if you split a section only slightly and run your hand over it.
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The worse ones from modulars are if you split a section only slightly and run your hand over it.
I've got a glass fibre extender for every day use, and I'm starting to get invisble splinters.
It's like being stabbed with a tiny needle, but you can't see anything there. >:(
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Don`t worry you WILL get spinters from modular poles and beleive me they are worse than fiber glass ones,the base of your sections obviously havn`t had enough use yet.The carbon splinters are almost invisible and painful,they have to work there way out of the skin,i know some will say wear gloves but that`s not happening in the summer is it.
Oh dear. I don't like the sound of that. I didn't realise you could get splinters from carbon fibre. I've only just bought a modular carbon pole too.
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The worse ones from modulars are if you split a section only slightly and run your hand over it.
I've got a glass fibre extender for every day use, and I'm starting to get invisble splinters.
It's like being stabbed with a tiny needle, but you can't see anything there. >:(
why not get some glass fibre resin (think that's whatit's called and repaint it? I rebuilt a boat when I was younger and used this alot, I will test this out as soon as this happens to me. I tend not to run the pole down my hands when putting it down just catch as it closes but that off to a fine art now,
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Ah but how do you pull your sections out?
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Ah but how do you pull your sections out?
the same way as you would normally do, the only reason you are getting splinters is because the pole is damaged the finish, just add the finishing paint back (and hay presto a new pole) ;)
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Why do poles take so long to develope ?
It's easy isn't it?
You have carbon fibre sections that've been made for other poles anyway. As soon as you've got three bits that fit into each other, some off the shelf clamps, a tail up the middle, and bang them out at four times cost what could be easier?
You know the ergonomics and most suitable lenghts from fibreglass examples. What is so hard about it?
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Why do poles take so long to develope ?
It's easy isn't it?
You have carbon fibre sections that've been made for other poles anyway. As soon as you've got three bits that fit into each other, some off the shelf clamps, a tail up the middle, and bang them out at four times cost what could be easier?
You know the ergonomics and most suitable lenghts from fibreglass examples. What is so hard about it?
You are joking I hope.
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Why do poles take so long to develope ?
It's easy isn't it?
You have carbon fibre sections that've been made for other poles anyway. As soon as you've got three bits that fit into each other, some off the shelf clamps, a tail up the middle, and bang them out at four times cost what could be easier?
You know the ergonomics and most suitable lenghts from fibreglass examples. What is so hard about it?
delevoping a pole I am guessing is not easy to do, would not know as never looked into it, have enough on my plate at the mo. I will be looking into re giging my poles I have when they start to cause problems, if it does not work cost me a few pounds if it works saves me quite a few pounds
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I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.
But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?
With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.
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I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.
But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?
With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.
I understand the points you are making, but I think there is alot more to it them just sticking in sections, I could be very wrong, but any product this is to last and or work well needs planning, I am no way going into manufacturing poles or inventing them, I have enough projects for at least the next 5 years.
try and fix a damaged pole that i use yes,
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I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.
But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?
With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.
We have had our new telescopic pole in development for about 10 months now and by the time it hits the shelves, it will have taken a year from conception to sales. If we just 'lifted' standard items off of the shelf, then all we would be selling is what someone else currently sells. Good products take time to think through, prototypes have to be made and then put into active service (6 months is a minimum trial time for a decent pole). Once this has been done you assess the product, make any improvements (which there always are) and then have more prototypes manufactured to see if these improvements actually work. Once you have finalised these details then you have to have the specific tooling manufactured for every bit of the pole. This takes months and many thousands of pounds.
Then you have to be prepared to commit your firm to a year's production run of the items, trying to anticipate demand for your 'new' product. This usually will mean a commitment of in excess of £100,000 in addition to your tooling costs and your prototype manufacturing costs.
At the end of this you will hopefully have a 'world class' product that people will want to use. When it comes to margins on poles not even the mighty Ionics makes anything like the 4 times mark-up you quote. The margins on some of our poles is less than £10.
As to 'stealing a march' on other firms like Emporium, etc, we are rather more concerned with our ideas being protected so that others cannot 'steal' them. We currently have a legal team working on one infringement of our Protected Design rights. This is why, after we have developed a new product ,we take the time and money to protect the design with the Patent Office which is what we've done with all of our recent new products.
It would be great if new product introduction were simple, but then if it was, everyone would be doing it and then if everyone was doing it, no one would make money from it so no one would end up bothering and there would be no progress. My motives for developing a better pole are purely selfish. I work as a window cleaner and want my work to be as easy as possible, therefore I have set out to try and develop the best window cleaning pole in the world! If it works well for me I know that it will work well for other window cleaners.
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Don't quote me but i was told by an insider that facelift spent 3 years developing thier poles.
Good on you Alex, a world class telescopic pole is what the market is needing IMO. A facelift beater (yes, realy). there will always be tight gets who won't spend over 100 quid on a pole but for the serious contenders (most pro wfp'ers) who know the score, they will willingly pay the cost, & more so, appreciate the product for as you say- to make your work as easy as possible, & with more speed & accuracy. Look at facelift, top pole, very expensive, the pole sold itself. infact, it sold so well they couldn't make them quick enough & completly sold out!
Up the new gardiner telescopic (whatever the cost :D)
tony
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I can see that running a much larger wc business than mine, running a successfull e-supply business, and being a sort of product development, manufacturing sourcing agent come inventor etc is a lot of different hats. I can see there isn't much time.
But I wasn't joking. Three different carbon sections shoved inside each other what's so hard? You already know the best sizes?
With them Emporium people etc all trying to do the same thing surely the best strategy is to use your knowledge to steal a march and get one out first.
We have had our new telescopic pole in development for about 10 months now and by the time it hits the shelves, it will have taken a year from conception to sales. If we just 'lifted' standard items off of the shelf, then all we would be selling is what someone else currently sells. Good products take time to think through, prototypes have to be made and then put into active service (6 months is a minimum trial time for a decent pole). Once this has been done you assess the product, make any improvements (which there always are) and then have more prototypes manufactured to see if these improvements actually work. Once you have finalised these details then you have to have the specific tooling manufactured for every bit of the pole. This takes months and many thousands of pounds.
Then you have to be prepared to commit your firm to a year's production run of the items, trying to anticipate demand for your 'new' product. This usually will mean a commitment of in excess of £100,000 in addition to your tooling costs and your prototype manufacturing costs.
At the end of this you will hopefully have a 'world class' product that people will want to use. When it comes to margins on poles not even the mighty Ionics makes anything like the 4 times mark-up you quote. The margins on some of our poles is less than £10.
As to 'stealing a march' on other firms like Emporium, etc, we are rather more concerned with our ideas being protected so that others cannot 'steal' them. We currently have a legal team working on one infringement of our Protected Design rights. This is why, after we have developed a new product ,we take the time and money to protect the design with the Patent Office which is what we've done with all of our recent new products.
It would be great if new product introduction were simple, but then if it was, everyone would be doing it and then if everyone was doing it, no one would make money from it so no one would end up bothering and there would be no progress. My motives for developing a better pole are purely selfish. I work as a window cleaner and want my work to be as easy as possible, therefore I have set out to try and develop the best window cleaning pole in the world! If it works well for me I know that it will work well for other window cleaners.
Good post Alex, I really liked the last section " everyone would be doing it"
And I sit here waiting to test your new telescopic prototype pole to give an honest view on it ;D
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Macmac you are funny. ;D
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Macmac you are funny. ;D
Thankyou david :-[ :-[ :-[