Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ian_Giles on October 22, 2007, 06:46:48 am
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Mm....Just been listening to the new on TV...
It seems that the government has decided to widen the scope of things banned during hosepipe bans from next summer, and it seems that window cleaning is going to fall foul of the new laws :'(
I'm sure that the ban will only apply to us WFP'ers, but how typically crass of the powers that be.
I've mentioned in previous posts and replies on this subject just how little water we use in comparison to so many other users, Drinks manufacturers use many millions of litres a day, as do countless other factories and plants.
And as for the scandalous wastage in leaks! :o
One single large leak will lose more water in a couple of hours than all of the WFP window cleaners in the county use in a week!!
I'm sure there will be plenty of comments to read through when I get back at lunchtime ;)
Ian
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is that just the private punter or does that include us?. It also said jet washing or using any mains water for swimming/paddling pools, cleaning card or filling jacuzzis
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They'll never try and enforce that with WC and Pw. Think of all the tax people pay in the 2 industries. Do you think the goverment will want to loose that.
A water usage charge over and above water meters, now that's probably more like it.
Arthur
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Certainly not something I'm worried about.
Anyway, even if it was enforced you could still earn a good wage.
Unless you've never done trad... ;D
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if i have to bring home the bacon for my family i will do hose pipe ban would not stop me, i would rather pay a fine, if the water companies were not so tight in the first place they have an ocean full of water to clean yet for some reason they still dont. Does anyone have a link to read about this??
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7055672.stm
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I read an article the other day which said that we had more than enough water in our reservoirs (because of all the heavy rainfall this year) to last 2 dry summers.
Andy
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Certainly not something I'm worried about.
Anyway, even if it was enforced you could still earn a good wage.
Unless you've never done trad... ;D
Why....aint trad window cleaning?
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What about these companys that sell pure water for us cleaners... will they be on the ban aswell? i think not!
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I read an article the other day which said that we had more than enough water in our reservoirs (because of all the heavy rainfall this year) to last 2 dry summers.
Andy
Andy, I just spotted that aswell, this seems to be like when wfp first came well know in england it it spead run like wild fire that ladders were getting banned, I am trying to find out who to call so I can speak to someone that knows the facts about this matter, I cant see how they can put 1000's of people out of work, IMO I think it is ained at domestic markets (ie the homeowner washing thier own windows (if so thats would be great) we can get more work ;)
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I have contacted Anglian Water, one of there team will be calling me later after they have found out, as far as the person knows that I spoke did not have a clue what I was talking about, I then spoke to his manager and they are passing my details to the person/office that would deal with this kind of thing to call me.
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Not that we should ever take things for granted but... the report does say "householders", "domestic use" the words "can" and maybe" are used, along with "drinking water" Also, way back in January this year, wasn't it going to be a long hot summer? :)
Yes we should be prepared to protect our livelihoods, like we did last year, but lets not "jump" into panic now ;)
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I also saw the news report - it didn't mention window cleaners themselves just the house holder cleaning windows with a hose pipe. Now why would a normal householder clean windows with a hose pipe!!!
Our customers (and others) will see us using a hose pipe and as it is banned will they say we can't clean their windows as it is against the law!!! (remember those who called the police when the ladder law came into force and they saw a window cleaner up a ladder!!). Although we are based in the North East, we had a customer who had a relative in the south when the hose pipe ban was on last time who asked us if we were allowed to use our reach & clean!!
Do you think the government will come up with a new way for us to clean or relax the ladder rules - no I don't think so - so this could turn out to be a very serious problem
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??? My cat's called Pippin. ;D
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Certainly not something I'm worried about.
Anyway, even if it was enforced you could still earn a good wage.
Unless you've never done trad... ;D
Touche!
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To be honest I have thought in the past that pressure may be put on WFP users during drought conditions here in the South east where I live.
They do use an awful lot of water.
Last year I wasn't allowed to fill up my swimming pool during the hosepipe ban so I did it early this year and managed to go in it about 3 or 4 times due to the rotten weather and so much rain. ???
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To be honest I think this is just a case of the press scare mongering!
Andy
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If there is enough water for millions of immigrants there is enough for me to work.
As for me, i will work.
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To be honest I think this is just a case of the press scare mongering!
Andy
I have not heard back for the water company, I too think is is scare mongering, or thinking a little deeper, It could have been started by trad cleaners to get there own back on the so called ladder ban ;)
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To be honest I think this is just a case of the press scare mongering!
Andy
I have not heard back for the water company, I too think is is scare mongering, or thinking a little deeper, It could have been started by trad cleaners to get there own back on the so called ladder ban ;)
I would agree, how can they compete with our quality of work? ;D
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If there is enough water for millions of immigrants there is enough for me to work.
As for me, i will work.
Amen to that!!!
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Just to let you all know the APWC is working on this matter and will report back soon.
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I'm not stopping using water and its that simple. If the council want to come round and try saying anything I will point him to the stream in my back garden thats been flowing for decades and never fixed although reported on numerous occasions.
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To be honest I have thought in the past that pressure may be put on WFP users during drought conditions here in the South east where I live.
They do use an awful lot of water.
Last year I wasn't allowed to fill up my swimming pool during the hosepipe ban so I did it early this year and managed to go in it about 3 or 4 times due to the rotten weather and so much rain. ???
Actually Neil, we don't use that much water at all.
You may feel as if yo uare using gallons and gallons of water, on average it takes 3000 litres of tap water to produce 1000 litres of pure water (yes, I know there are systems out there far more efficient than that, but most don't have the big expensive systems).
But on average, judging by the majority of replies I've seen on the subject on here, most of us use about 300 litres of pure per day.
So lets say that is a total water consumption of approx 1000 litres per day, so roughly 5000 litres per week.
Not counting the big cities, in an average sized town of....what...15-20,000 people? There may be 20 window cleaners, if 15 of them are now WFP (doubtful) thats about 75,000 litres per week....
Phew...doesn't that sound like a lot of water??
Compare that to a brewery, a car manufacturer, a soft drinks producer and just about any large factory and its just a drop in the ocean (pun intended ;D) they will go though millions of litres per day.
Hopefully this will be aimed at domestic use, but I've got my doubts on that, but even one single household that is watering the garden overnight with a sprinkler will go through at least double the 5000 litres that our Mr average WFP'er will go through in a full week!
So you have to try and take WFP water use in context...we really don't make much difference at all, not that the authorities will take any notice of that though will they??
Ian
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Actually I get my water off Ian, so for every 1000 litres I use, he wastes 2000L.
Can't blame me. ;D
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To be honest I have thought in the past that pressure may be put on WFP users during drought conditions here in the South east where I live.
They do use an awful lot of water.
Last year I wasn't allowed to fill up my swimming pool during the hosepipe ban so I did it early this year and managed to go in it about 3 or 4 times due to the rotten weather and so much rain. ???
Actually Neil, we don't use that much water at all.
You may feel as if yo uare using gallons and gallons of water, on average it takes 3000 litres of tap water to produce 1000 litres of pure water (yes, I know there are systems out there far more efficient than that, but most don't have the big expensive systems).
But on average, judging by the majority of replies I've seen on the subject on here, most of us use about 300 litres of pure per day.
So lets say that is a total water consumption of approx 1000 litres per day, so roughly 5000 litres per week.
Not counting the big cities, in an average sized town of....what...15-20,000 people? There may be 20 window cleaners, if 15 of them are now WFP (doubtful) thats about 75,000 litres per week....
Phew...doesn't that sound like a lot of water??
Compare that to a brewery, a car manufacturer, a soft drinks producer and just about any large factory and its just a drop in the ocean (pun intended ;D) they will go though millions of litres per day.
Hopefully this will be aimed at domestic use, but I've got my doubts on that, but even one single household that is watering the garden overnight with a sprinkler will go through at least double the 5000 litres that our Mr average WFP'er will go through in a full week!
So you have to try and take WFP water use in context...we really don't make much difference at all, not that the authorities will take any notice of that though will they??
Ian
Many good points there Ian,
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If a ban did happen then the wfpers that had been trad would be inconvenianced but still able to work. What about those who have never done trad though. With the weather the way it is though I wonder if it will ever be an issue.
Simon.
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If a ban did happen then the wfpers that had been trad would be inconvenianced but still able to work. What about those who have never done trad though.
No sympathy! Better get learning fast!
It's the core of window cleaning, there's no excuse not to know how to do it.
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Hi everyone,
I have just read the proposed changes for the hosepipe ban,it does outline window cleaning,but the government said in its summary that there can be concessions made by the water companies when it comes to small businesses and sole traders,so it is not all doom and gloom.
Malcolm
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That a bit out of order Squeaky
Why is it the core of window cleaning? I thought the core of window cleaning was to clean windows!
My excuse for not knowing how to do it is because ive never needed to
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If a ban did happen then the wfpers that had been trad would be inconvenianced but still able to work. What about those who have never done trad though.
No sympathy! Better get learning fast!
It's the core of window cleaning, there's no excuse not to know how to do it.
Spot on Rog.
Trad cleaning is a must.
If a ban did happen then the wfpers that had been trad would be inconvenianced but still able to work.
Simon.
Wrong, one of my main concerns was my safety. I have spent all my life on ladders & consider myslf lucky that with the falls i had on ladders only resulted in bruises. No pen pusher is going to tell me i've got to revert to ladders when i've invested in a safe option.
Macc
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If a ban did happen then the wfpers that had been trad would be inconvenianced but still able to work. What about those who have never done trad though.
No sympathy! Better get learning fast!
It's the core of window cleaning, there's no excuse not to know how to do it.
WFP is fast becoming the core of window cleaning,trad will soon be thought of as a just a back up skill for those who do the odd inside clean.its funny how some in our trade come across as so self important just because they were trad first before changing over to the better way "WFP" and if it isnt better why did they change over to it? they changed because they can earn more in a safer way and do an all round better job.
and before you ask squeeks i did start out trad,like an old antique my squeegy comes out now and again but christ i wouldnt want to have to do all my work useing the bloody thing again.
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If a ban did happen then the wfpers that had been trad would be inconvenianced but still able to work. What about those who have never done trad though.
No sympathy! Better get learning fast!
It's the core of window cleaning, there's no excuse not to know how to do it.
Think he meant it was. I started trad and been wfp since thursday last week, all window cleaners that use wfp should learn the trad way as INO is is plain foolish if you dont. Please dont get on my back about it, this is just my opinion on window cleaning, window cleaning now uses both and both should be used where needed ;)
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trad or wfp who cares . we are all brothers in arms . any way who is selling wfp water in south wales ,it s just im trad at moment .i have bought backpack .n due to problems. u dont want to here about.i could do with some water untill i set up my di system.many thanks tacky in ebbw vale
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There is no end to all this new legislation. Are all these legislators on a bonus system? I'll tell you what it is, a bloody stealth tax. A local guy was fined £60 last week for smoking in his delivery van whilst taking a break. He was booked by a dog warden. His ticket read dog fouling, he still had to pay. If you are a mum on the school run, you can smoke to your hearts content with the kids in the back. A Woman was fined for parking an inch outside the lines on a nearly empty car park.
A guy who works for the council told me, that their bosses had told them to look out for anyone throwing a cigarette out of their car, and to take down their numbers.
So it's OK to write down registration numbers when your driving, but touch that mobile phone and you get another fine.
Put your rubbish out on the wrong day, another bloody fine.
Is it any wonder that people are losing respect for the law?
Even if you were using rain water to clean windows [and some do] They wouldn't believe you.
It will soon be time to remember Guy Fawkes. The only person ever, to enter the houses of parliament with truly honorable intentions. Dai
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It was clear at the consultation stage that we were going to be included. You just have to accept it. A couple of points though.
1. Our hose's aren't connected up to a mains supply.
2. The harvesting of or use of grey water would fall outside the scope of any the ban
3. We would only be affected in the event of a ban. There is unlikely to be one next year, but it's possible with climate change that they will start happening more often. That means we have time to plan now.
For the benefit of Squeaks harvested rain water is classed as grey, as is used bathwater.
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2. The harvesting of or use of grey water falls outside the scope of the ban
Bugger, I use the see-through stuff. :(
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Hi everyone,
I have just read the proposed changes for the hosepipe ban,it does outline window cleaning,but the government said in its summary that there can be concessions made by the water companies when it comes to small businesses and sole traders,so it is not all doom and gloom.
Malcolm
The problem would seem to be that a hosepipe ban could be enough to trigger a WFP ban whereas before it required a drought order. A hosepipe ban can be implemented without a public hearing whereas a drought order requires one. Potentially WFP could be banned behind locked doors without us being able to get a word in. If you legislate to stop people having a say, they tend to try and grab a bigger say in a more haphazard manner. If lorry drivers can clog up the London streets, I reckon there would be enough window cleaning vans to do so as well. Hopefully it will never come to it.
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Squeaky I agree with you Trad is and still be the core of window cleaning,if you never learned it get going,if you want a water broom thats an easy way ,window brushers ;D :o any one can use a water broom,now you have more window cleaners start up as a result less work to go round everyone gets squeezed ::)the winners are the people that make water brooms :o what happens as its soon going to be saturated ??? all you need is one bad dude of a water ban ??? it might be sooner than you think :-\
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instead of arguing about wfp and trad, think about the actuall issue. The article on the news yesterday morning said window cleaning, not wfp. It may say with hose pipe, but does that mean you can fill a jacuzzi with a bowel, NO. They will ban it TOTAL. If you want to squabble amongst yourselves then go ahead, me personally, I'm gonna try and work a way round it.
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but does that mean you can fill a jacuzzi with a bowel
Just trying to get my head round this one
:-\ :-\
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they're also banning filling jacuzzies, swimming pools and even kids paddling pools
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So if a ban was put in place for wfp or wfp and trad, would the water board have to pay compensation for loss of business?
Simon.
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they're also banning filling jacuzzies, swimming pools and even kids paddling pools
That is classed as a luxury working is not
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It may say with hose pipe, but does that mean you can fill a jacuzzi with a bowel,
What a horrid thought - filling a jacuzzi with a BOWEL - not a nice thing to do!
(We know what you mean - just looks funny)
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To be honest I have thought in the past that pressure may be put on WFP users during drought conditions here in the South east where I live.
They do use an awful lot of water.
Last year I wasn't allowed to fill up my swimming pool during the hosepipe ban so I did it early this year and managed to go in it about 3 or 4 times due to the rotten weather and so much rain. ???
Actually Neil, we don't use that much water at all.
You may feel as if yo uare using gallons and gallons of water, on average it takes 3000 litres of tap water to produce 1000 litres of pure water (yes, I know there are systems out there far more efficient than that, but most don't have the big expensive systems).
But on average, judging by the majority of replies I've seen on the subject on here, most of us use about 300 litres of pure per day.
So lets say that is a total water consumption of approx 1000 litres per day, so roughly 5000 litres per week.
Not counting the big cities, in an average sized town of....what...15-20,000 people? There may be 20 window cleaners, if 15 of them are now WFP (doubtful) thats about 75,000 litres per week....
Phew...doesn't that sound like a lot of water??
Compare that to a brewery, a car manufacturer, a soft drinks producer and just about any large factory and its just a drop in the ocean (pun intended ;D) they will go though millions of litres per day.
Hopefully this will be aimed at domestic use, but I've got my doubts on that, but even one single household that is watering the garden overnight with a sprinkler will go through at least double the 5000 litres that our Mr average WFP'er will go through in a full week!
So you have to try and take WFP water use in context...we really don't make much difference at all, not that the authorities will take any notice of that though will they??
Ian
I agree, the authorities won't take much notice. >:(
The people in power including water authorities can always be relied on for knee jerk reactions.
However with the climate change that is happening I think there could well be more legislation about the way water is used in the future.
I can't ever remember a wetter summer before though. ???
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What a load of B0110ck5,it`s another excuse to charge more for water it`s as simple as that.
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What a load of B0110ck5,it`s another excuse to charge more for water it`s as simple as that.
when a ban takes affet the water companies have a right to introduce more water meters, this in turn cuts down the amount of wasted water, i myself had a water meter fitted by choice, I pay my way, it is the people that are not on them that may need to think a little harder when leaving there garden hose watering the garden all night, these are the just one of the reasons we fall short somethimes and this ban is changing people that are not on a meter just dont care, and I have seem a few posts on here from others that are guilty of this, most will have heard this saying "i'm not on a water meter" we guys this will change in time trust me ;).
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I can`t see them saying that`s it WFP is banned and that`s it,it wasn`t long ago health and safty were moaning about us using ladders,to say that come april it will be banned is hard to beleive.I hope not anyway LOL.
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Not this again .........................
To be honest im not have anyone tell me how im going to work.
If i want to use WFP i will and if i want to clean traditional i will.
I don't care what the health and safety exec or the water board say any more.
Still i am not worried as its not going to affect me as i won't let it affect me
Paul
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The ammount of water the Water Authorities draw compared to what the supply is 50%. ???
That is one hell of alot of leaks, so before they tell me i'm out of work they can get their own house in order.
Also how can there be a shortage of water when they want tens of thousands of home built, they want their cake & eat it.
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During the last hosepipe ban I couldn't use a hose to clean my Taxi, But I could (and did!) drive a mile down the road to the local hand car wash and pay a load of assylum seekers £5 to clean it with a pressure washer.
How is that right? They used thousands of gallons of water a day
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http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2007/10/23/drought-rule-to-ban-window-cleaning-55578-19992171/
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That report is saying that householders can`t clean there windows or fill there pond,it dosen`t say they can`t pay a company to come and clean them for them.I can`t see them banning us as pro WCS that do it for a living,if they do i`ll 5h17 on the step of 10 downing street.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/10/23/eadrought123.xml
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Hosepipe law could threaten window cleaners
By Graham Tibbetts
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 23/10/2007
The livelihoods of hundreds of thousands of window cleaners could be threatened by a tough new hosepipe law, The Daily Telegraph can disclose.
Under a Government proposal to tackle future droughts, it would be illegal to use hosepipes for a number of activities, from filling swimming pools to cleaning windows.
Up to half the nation's estimated 400,000 window cleaners have recently dispensed with the traditional bucket and sponge in favour of a ladder-free system of poles which relies on hosepipes.
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Andrew Lee, vice-chairman of the Federation for Window Cleaners, said: "It's going to be disastrous if we are included in the ban. I can't encourage people to break the law but that's what these boys are going to be faced with."
The concern follows moves by the Government to update the 62-year-old drought legislation, which only restricts the use of hosepipes for watering gardens and washing cars.
The new law would allow water companies to enforce a "discretionary use" ban, outlawing virtually all domestic activities involving hosepipes.
Window cleaners, under pressure from health and safety legislation which discourages the use of ladders, have been converting their businesses to water-fed poles.
The cleaners fill a tank in their van with mains water via a hosepipe.
The water is piped from the van to a brush on the end of the pole, allowing cleaners to wash windows up to 60ft high without ladders.
Mr Lee, who has a business in Cumbria, said many cleaners had spent around £15,000 upgrading to the new system.
"To go down the water-fed pole route you're looking at a Transit van with a 650-litre tank that has to be fitted.
Then you've got poles that cost £1,000 apiece. A lot of people have taken out loans to finance the transition," he said.
A spokesman for the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs confirmed that water-fed poles would be covered by a hosepipe ban under the law but said: "Window cleaners could still revert to a bucket and sponge."
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Up to half the nation's estimated 400,000 window cleaners have recently dispensed with the traditional bucket and sponge in favour of a ladder-free system of poles which relies on hosepipes.
Up to HALF? ;D
I doubt it's anywhere near a quarter.
There's small set-ups with a ladder and bucket everywhere you look.
Talk about exaggerating for a story! ::)
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400'000 ? ? ? ?
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Oh yeah, forgot that.
That makes it up to 200,00 wfp users.
Alex must be coining it in Cornwall! ;D
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400'000 ? ? ? ?
thats a bonus I thought there were more like 200,000 so makes me finding 1000 window cleaners to have a website even easier ;D
they also state that it is a ban on domestic, I am classed as a commercial business so does it affect me? from what they say the answer is no, now if a domestic guy buys a wfp for his house then he cant use it.
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"A spokesman for the Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs confirmed that water-fed poles would be covered by a hosepipe ban under the law but said: "Window cleaners could still revert to a bucket and sponge."
gawd blimey guv, bucket and sponge ;D
well if it does become law under a hosepipe ban I don't suppose number 10 or the palace windows will be getting dirty! ;D or are they done with a bucket and sponge? :-\ ;)
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During the last hosepipe ban I couldn't use a hose to clean my Taxi, But I could (and did!) drive a mile down the road to the local hand car wash and pay a load of assylum seekers £5 to clean it with a pressure washer.
How is that right? They used thousands of gallons of water a day
You sure about that? Asylum seekers aren't allowed to work. Or do you mean immigrants rather than asylum seekers?
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What about if you are on a business water meter?
To be honest though guys this is all being over-hyped by the press.
Andy
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if this comes into effect i for one will carry on with my wfp as i have to look after my family and a mortgage to pay, yes i will ignore the ban and take a chance on a fine.
the other option being use a back pack as there would be no trailing hose from my van?
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the other option being use a back pack as there would be no trailing hose from my van?
Probably easier to fob any 'conscientious' custys that way too, 'oh, its only yours and a couple of others Im doing with this, off home after that, no water !!'
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if this comes into effect i for one will carry on with my wfp as i have to look after my family and a mortgage to pay, yes i will ignore the ban and take a chance on a fine.
the other option being use a back pack as there would be no trailing hose from my van?
Taken to court and £1000 fine. Do it again and be held in contempt of court and risk going inside....you definitely won't earn any money in there!
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Taken to court and £1000 fine. Do it again and be held in contempt of court and risk going inside....you definitely won't earn any money in there!
Yeah right.
Drug dealing, sewing mailbags, favours for burly men... ;D
They've got windows too.
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Windows with bars...tricky to wfp 'em ;D
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better get saving for the ionics water recycling wfp systems. Only about 14 grand for the diesel version. :(
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I feel a boom in squeegees ;D :o ::) and a sudden fall in wfps :o
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I feel a boom in squeegees ;D :o ::) and a sudden fall in wfps :o
all the more work for me then ;D
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Don't get too hopeful. They have to declare a drought first. When that happens I will buy a backpack "Sorry Gov, What hosepipe? This ain't a hosepipe its a plastic tube, Oh and this aint tapwater its Industrial de-ionised water. Somebodys been telling you porkys Gov"
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better get saving for the ionics water recycling wfp systems. Only about 14 grand for the diesel version. :(
Naaa! They're putting super tax on diesel ;D
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During the last hosepipe ban I couldn't use a hose to clean my Taxi, But I could (and did!) drive a mile down the road to the local hand car wash and pay a load of assylum seekers £5 to clean it with a pressure washer.
How is that right? They used thousands of gallons of water a day
You sure about that? Asylum seekers aren't allowed to work. Or do you mean immigrants rather than asylum seekers?
The ones round here get raided all the time by Immigration and they catch loads of illegals. But it doesn't seem to make any difference. Raided one day, open again the next day, business as usual.
It will be the same if a hosepipe ban comes in, they will just ignore it
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if this comes into effect i for one will carry on with my wfp as i have to look after my family and a mortgage to pay, yes i will ignore the ban and take a chance on a fine.
the other option being use a back pack as there would be no trailing hose from my van?
Taken to court and £1000 fine. Do it again and be held in contempt of court and risk going inside....you definitely won't earn any money in there!
Exactly.
All these folk saying they would flout a ban are forgetting that there are only too many nosey people ready to report them and take pictures of them with their shiny signwritten vans.
The simple answer if such a sitiaution occurred is to get out the bucket and scrim for the duration. Any jobs you can't do trad would have to wait.
I live in the South East so if any such drought orders come down it will probably be my area first.
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The question of the backpack does need clarifying though because joking aside, its a valid point.
Other than that, so what? If its back to ladders for a few months I won't go broke.
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The question of the backpack does need clarifying though because joking aside, its a valid point.
Other than that, so what? If its back to ladders for a few months I won't go broke.
The wording used to be something like "hosepipe or by similar means". I'm sure the pole hose would count as "similar means". However, if caught, you could probably get away with being prosecuted by acting dense but you wouldn't get away with it a second time.
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I don't need to act. I really am dense.
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I don't need to act. I really am dense.
Ha ha ha.
Thanks for the laugh.