Clean It Up
UK General Cleaning Forum => General Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mrs Nicholls on September 10, 2007, 01:04:54 pm
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hi
I have just had information back to me that someone has slipped on wet floor that my our staff cleaned at a commercial premises ( a medical centre ).
I know that the manager there doesnt like the usage of yellow warning signs, and i think he has hid them from staff, as they are trained to use them.
We dont supply any cleaning equipment or materials for this contract. If this person made a claim would we still be liable?
Something like this could shut us down. Very ironic but i have just updated everyone and handed out booklets about slips and trips last week,
Thanks
Lisa
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Lisa,
You already know the answer!
Its the law, tough if the manager doesnt like it, do the job out of hours, or ensure that signs are in place at all times, until the hazard is clear.
If your cleaners put the signs out, and someone else removed them, I would imagine that liability lies with them, if your staff couldnt find the signs or didnt put them out, then the liability is yours!
Different again if person who slipped, ignored the signs!
Regards,
Rob
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Don`t worry about it to much, thats what insurance is for it`s not gonna put you out of business
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Cant quite believe that you wrote that Gleam!!
Regards,
Rob
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i cant afford sky high insurance premiums lol, the person hasn't complained, but the manager at the med centre has requested a chat with me, although i cant get hold of him now.
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Hi Lisa
I strongly recommend you get some public liability insurance even though its not illegal to not have any.
You must also get some employers liability if you employ staff
Regards
Dave :)
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Robert
Can i pick you up on two points: Firstly, what did you mean by 'its the law'? I can't see what that relates to.
Secondly, the information that Gleam posted is spot on. You (or in this case Lisa) tells her insurance company IMMEDIATLY what happened, sticking to the facts (i.e. yes there were signs, no there were no signs, not saying "Oh someone might have moved them" etc etc etc ) and then all you can do is wait..........like what was said, thats precisely what the insurance is all about.
Lisa, dont assume that if someone makes a claim that your premiums will rise. Dont take this the wrong way but i have a friend like you who takes far more notice of the people around her and second-guessing what might happen instead of taking the bull by the horns and finding out from those in the know.
Get on the fone to yout insurer ASAP and let them tell you what will happen.
Good luck babe!
Stephen
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Robert
Can i pick you up on two points: Firstly, what did you mean by 'its the law'? I can't see what that relates to.
Hi Stephen I think Robert meant the displaying of warning signs
Dave
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Thats what i thought he meant and indeed hoped he didnt mean it. I would like to see 'the law' that says warning signs MUST be displayed...
Stephen
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we are fully insured, for those who have asked
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Lisa
So call them and let them do what it is that you;ve been paying for....
cheers
stephen
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Under the Health & Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 any employer (bar afew) must provide warning signs in the workplace if other methods of risk prevention are unsatisfactory. So unless Lisa could cordon off the area whilst her staff clean the floor then a suitable warning sign(s) should be displayed and from reading her posts i think she provides her service during working hours so cordoning off and area wouldnt be very convenient.
Regards
we are fully insured, for those who have asked
sorry Lisa i thought you meant that you had no insurance, my bad :-[
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yep, read that, but i'm looking all over for something that specifically says that a yellow sign must be put up when a floor is being mopped......as i say specifically.
The insurers should advise on this i would have thought....?
Stephen
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Hi again
as i understand it, if an area cannot be cordoned off then yes a yellow safety sign should be displayed which must meet british standards
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Isn't it the case that insurers sometimes won't pay out if you have been negligent or haven't adhered to h&s law?
Don't want to sound negative Lisa but they don't pay unless they have to.
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when I wrote the above post I did not mean don`t worry about using signs or people slipping over of course you should do everything properly with safety in mind, what I meant was, that if you have done everything properly (as you appear to have done so) then as the above post says pass all the details on to your insurers and let them sort it out, they will have a far greater chance of making it all disappear than you would, at the end of the day they don`t want to pay so they spend thousands investigating and what ave you, to ensure that their payouts are kept to a minimum.
In this case the easiest way for them to avoid paying is to argue on your side that you done everything properly and it was the medical centre that was in the wrong and therefore any claim should come from their insurers and not yours.
at the end of the day you don`t even know if there is a claim yet, I bet the manager who does not like the use a wet floor signs gets you up there and says "you should be using wet floor signs" as if it was you who did not want to use them.
anyhow don`t panic your not going out of business, your premiums won`t go up to much if at all so sit back and let the experts sort it out. ;D
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If we use a mop bucket with a slip sign on it do we still need a yellow warning sign ? The bucket is in full view all the time so staff can see it.
Thanks Fred.
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Isn't it the case that insurers sometimes won't pay out if you have been negligent or haven't adhered to h&s law?
Don't want to sound negative Lisa but they don't pay unless they have to.
You should stil let the insurance company know, where do u draw the line? You should never second guess what they may or may not say, you need to find out the facts.
Stephen
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Health & Safety is in actual fact real legislation, ie. it is LAW Bertie, I know from previous posts that you deal with the domestic end of the market, however, this does not excuse you from the above legislation.
The legislation is quite clear, you must do everything reasonable in order to protect you, your staff, your clients staff and members of the general public from harm within the workplace, dhnjj, is quite correct, even the signs must conform to certain standards (cleanimperial - a mop bucket, unless it conforms to these standards, will not suffice, these just serve as an extra warning!)
As part of your risk assessment, signs are one of the control measures that must be put into place in order to minimize the risks present.
Bertie is also quite right, the insurance company are the experts, but again too so is absolutecleaning, the insurance company will not pay out unless you have complied with the current and ever changing legislation.
Reading this post, has made me despair for the industry, long gone so it seems are those with real knowledge.
Lisa, try not to panic, hold your meeting with the centre manager asap, get the facts, and nothing but the facts, take statements from your staff, written all nice and neat, get a written statement from the centre manager too if possible, not forgetting any doctor present who looked at the person who slipped, file these away, just in case you need them in the future, and keep your fingers crossed.
Explain to the centre manager, that your staff are trained to adhere to the H & S legislation, and will not work if it means breaking the law, no ifs or but's. Good luck!
Regards,
Rob
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If we use a mop bucket with a slip sign on it do we still need a yellow warning sign ? The bucket is in full view all the time so staff can see it.
Thanks Fred.
Hi Fred
I think the mop buckets with signs on should be treated as an addition to the measures already in place. A Black sign on a Yellow background is widely recognised as "a warning" where as a White symbol on a Green background as first aid or escape route information and White on Red - Fire etc etc.
If your colour coded then the background on your buckets could be one of several colours
If your staff are mopping a floor then surely they are moving the bucket around with them, wouldnt it be better to have static signs that are only removed when the floor is dry? :)
Regards
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i have received info back from the centre manager, and the staff covering this contract.
we have decided that mopping is done earlier so floor is dry before patients arrive - and hopefully dont slip.
and he is worried that the yellow signs pose a trip hazard! so has asked for them to be placed on a chair in the cleaning area so it is clearly visable.
He has also changed the floor cleaner, its was the usual flash floor cleaner, but now its a product called Carefree Stride 1000 neutral ph apparently, and im wondering if this is causing the slips if the cleaners arent diluting it correctly.
Anyone used this product or know anything about it on certain floor types?
The persons slipping (apparently there were 2 separate incidents) were not injured. (thankfully)
Thanks
Lisa
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Hi Lisa
What makes you wonder if the cleaners were not diluting it correctly......?
Stephen
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Hi
The centre manager says he has provided appropriate measuring equipment to dilute the product properly, and i was thinking if they arent using it as they should ( i know they are a pain and just do what they want most the time), they might have too much product in the water and its leaving a slippy film on the floor.
i'm going to the premises next week, suprise visit..... i want to see if everything is getting done by the book.
If i do everthing i can and look proactive we might just keep this contract after the trial ends in november.
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i know they are a pain and just do what they want most the time, they might have too much product in the water and its leaving a slippy film on the floor.
Hi Lisa
Oh dear, this is what i hoped you wouldnt say....... :-\
Stephen
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oh dear.
well you know the saying, cant teach an old dog new tricks, these cleaners of ours are older than us and think they know it all, even after giving training on slips trips, product knowledge (except that new product), and all that they still do it their own way. More supervision is required i think.
What can you do, after you have repeated yourself over and over, i know written warning time that should pull a few socks up
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Hi lisa
I'm not critisising you or your methods, i know you know that, but i am wondering if you issue a written warning for it whether the staff will just leave?
An old lady who i clean for -who herself was a cleaner all her life (she has me to help as she is very frail now) said that her boss used to ration all the materials in order that tehy were not wasted. Products were signed out, detergents were given in measured doses etc. I dont know if you could apply this ?
Cheers
Stephen
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We do this already with kit bag items (used for domestic cleans) everything has to go through me, i started doing this a month ago, as certain people (as in pain in the bottom already mentioned) liked to ask for a lot of things saying she was running low, but had half a bottle left kind of thing, dont know what she was doing with it, probably drinking it ;D, but now that she has to sign for it she doesnt ask very often,
i also check kit bags on a monthly basis 'my stock check', so i know and they know im checking the usage. i try to get them to use portion control, and they are trained in all this during induction,
its nowing coming up to 6 months, so a review is in order, and practical test, observation, and theory. Im awful i know but it helps keep track of whats needed in training and development terms.
The thing with this contract is we dont supply anything, so i cant really ration anything out. Not even sure if the med centre manager explained the usage, or just left the measure in with the bottle. i wasnt informed of this until after the incidents, COSHH details are with it.
I think i need to invest my time, or even the supervisor (biz partner) to ensure everyone is trained to standards, as things may have slipped.
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Lisa
I think you need to ditch the biz partner like you talked about before and then get a grip on this succesful business of yours to make sure it doesnt go ti ts up.
I dont think you are awful, i think you are correct (indeed to be commended) for wanting to inspect and examine the working methods of your staff.
This is the sort of thing that was in my decision to work alone - i worried that staff would not take the job as seriously as me and in such circumstances i knew i would not have the skills to deal with it. I admire you. Its been suggested that i am unambitious, 'boring', and taking the easy option by doing what i do, its all true of course, but its the only way i can operate without being stressed. I dont like stress :D
Good luck girl :-*
Stephen
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well you know the saying, cant teach an old dog new tricks, these cleaners of ours are older than us and think they know it all, even after giving training on slips trips, product knowledge (except that new product), and all that they still do it their own way. More supervision is required i think.
What can you do, after you have repeated yourself over and over, i know written warning time that should pull a few socks up
Hi Lisa
I went into management at a young age where most of the staff were alot older and/or had been in the profession alot longer, they tried this dominance thing with me and I soon learnt I had to toughen up which I did. They eventually realised it was my way or the highway!
It is difficult because you dont want to offend them and If your like me, its bred into you to respect your elders but this is a business, your business. All it takes is some assertiveness with these pair. They will soon come to accept you as the person in authority if the want to keep their jobs.
Regards
Dave
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Hi Stephen
Thanks for your kind words, its really good to get all this out in the open, and its even better when people understand your situation, so thank you for your thoughts and opinions, really appreciated.
just one thing, if you had a businss partner, would u discipline them for a wrong doing, or do you think this would cause a bad atmos?
another story from this med centre, she walked into a nurses room where a lady was having her smear taken! when the nurse shouted not to come in when she knocked the door, but she barged in anyway ! biz partner didnt tell me, centre manager did 3 days after it happen! i was furious. If this was a cleaner, i would have dragged them into the office and issued a written warning there and then.
its laughable, when i confronted her she just shrugged her shoulders and pulled a face, to say oh well, wasnt my fault, who cares, couldnt do anything about it.
Hi Dave, Perhaps i would benefit from an assertiveness class, i do like to stamp my feet though, but i dont like to upset people as it upsets me, i need to get back to the b i tch i was in my teens, i didnt take any sh it back then lol
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Lisa, it sounds like the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
Get rid of your partner (if you can) and then you can concentrate on bringing your nutters into line.
Don't let the tail wag the dog. It doesn't need to be that stressful.
Not if you don't want it to be??
Good luck.
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Hi Mark
your post made me laugh, thanks.
i think it is true, they have taken over. i finally managed to get biz partner to sign partnership agreement today which says i can go through a discipline procedure, i just dont want to cause bad atmos between us as we are good friends. Also she can drag me through the same procedure if she feels i need pulling into line.
i need to have a drinky and chill. Current problem, a key has gone walk about and no-one knows where......hay ho!
you gotta laugh i spose
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Hi Lisa
yes, be assertive and always be able to justify what you say to them and you shouldnt have a problem.
Sorry to read you lost a key, could you not set up a key holder system, designating named staff as key holders, pay them alittle more for the responsibility. dot them around the map so that your cleaners can go to them to collect the keys. The key holders could collect them the night before. Cleaners would be happier cause their keyholder would be closer to them. Keyholders would be happy cause they recieve alittle more in their wage packet. Just a thought :)
As for the business partner, it sounds to me as if she's just a partner on paper, but that might not be because she's useless, it could be that she see's you as more experienced or you deal with things better or that you may unknowingly overshadow her. I would say sit down at the local coffee shop, discuss each of your roles and responsibilities in the business, set yourselves targets, aims, goals, whether they be personal goals like, "Lisa to be more assertive" or business goals like "other partner to organise designated key holders" Set timescales/deadlines for these and record them down in the form of an action plan. A month later go back to the coffee shop, discuss the previous meeting, tick off what you have done and set some new goals. This should keep communication open with you and your business partner and may help you both to see your responsibilities clearly. Then if after several meetings she hasnt improved consider the other options. plus you'll have all the evidence you need on your action plan
Regards
Dave :)
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Hi
Thsnks for your input, that sounds like a plan i would stick to but not her, shes a yeah yeah whatever u say person. But syill as u say, it will set goals, might make her realise what her responsibilities are and mine also.
i didnt lose a key i just thought i did, seems like ive been a head less chicken lol the customer hadnt even given us a key yet!! saved.