Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Jaybee on August 30, 2007, 03:25:09 am
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I've been using a Numatic CTD572 for the last 4 years (don't all laugh at once,) and yeah it only cost me £600 but it's earned me a lot of money for very little outlay and maintenance costs.
Anyway I decided to step up a gear and at the same time increase my pricing (see topic titled "Is this for real" for my previous posts before I was banned again,) so I purchased a CFR 500 Perfect Heat that was advertised on here by Denis (nice chap). I also aquired a 11" roller wand thingy and a 5" hand tool, both CFR products.
I have only used this so far for one job that was a lounge, H/S/L and a bedroom. Previously with the Numatic I had to have to take the thing upstairs to clean the landing and bedroom, I don't need to do this with the CFR but this was counteracted by the fact that the CFR is so big and heavy it is so much more difficult to get it out of my 4x4 and up 7 steps into a terraced house - especially over the fragile door rim at the bottom that every UPVC door has.
The recirculating water method is nice as I was previously having to change water every 15 mins or so, and also empty regular which involved dismantling the machine on the Numatic. However the recirculating water does actually mean that you are basically washing the carpet with dirty water - no amount of filtration will over come this - you are taking dirt out of the heavy traffic areas and depositing it in the clean areas i.e. under sofas etc.
Leading onto the "quick drying" that is provided when you use the CFR wands. Now it is obviously common knowledge that pressure is created by resistance to flow. When you are increasing the pressure on your machine you are actually increasing the flow rate to the jets. When the water is released from the jets and in free air it is obviously no longer under pressure and therefore it's cleaning efficiency can only be measured by its velocity and its mass per droplet. As the CFR machines "atomise" the water into a very fine spray this creates a massive deceleration of the droplets before they hit the carpet as they have little mass and therefore little kinetic energy. This is why they do not penetrate the carpet very well which is great if you are a looking for fast drying times but not so great if you are wanting cleaning efficiency.
These are my initial impressions after one single job, I will add more comments as I become more experienced with the machine.
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Did you not think about these aspects before buying the CFR, you would see haw big it was and should have understood it's radical cleaning method.
A little bit of homework can save a lot of expense and disappointment
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i got mine through yesterday and am pretty pleased with it having done just our own lounge at home.
reading your above text has worried me a bit though - is there any point having a high pressure pump and it not leaving the wand at high velocity - answers on a postcard please :-\
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You should be able to avoid the door edge problems by getting more hose that machine will operate at 75 - 100 feet from the machine.
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Jaybee
I too started with a a Pneumatic CTD572 some 16 years ago and still have it and it still sprays and sucks. Funnily - it cost me about £600 all those years ago if I remember.
I too got a CFR500 - some 17 months ago so I can speak with freeness.
Yes its big and heavy - good job its got those extra wheels at the top so you can lie it on its back and roll it into extate car/van etc.
Getting into and out a house can be done the same way - lie it on its back with the top wheels inside the house, lift up the bottom and roll it in - just as if your loading in the van.
Sometimes I put a towel over the upvc door frame if I think some protection is needed.
No big problem. ;)
Sometimes, like yesterday for example - I leave the machine outside. I did 3 bedrooms in a "normal" sized semi, and knowing I would have to use extension hoses (25' going to 50') I left the machine outside. It was a nice day so no electrical/rain problems, the hallway was vey small, and outside there would be better air flow around the machine - oh! and it was less noisy too!! :D
I understand what you are saying about the pressure and the spray etc - but believe me IT DOES DO A DEEP CLEAN.
I never cease to be amazed at the amount of dirt that is released, and thats after a good pre vac with a Sebo and agitation with an Envirodri to get rid of the loose bits. Not all carpets are that bad thankfully.
Just finished four day lounges in a care home - each exactly the same shape/size and about 50 maybe 60 sq yds.
You know how it is in care homes, the residents sit in a U shape watching TV all day and, just like us at home (or is it just me!), tea and food gets dropped and trod into the carpets - well this was bad, bad in all four lounges.
Did each lounge in 3 hours including fresh set up each time.
I did drop all the water in the tank a few times (because it really was bad) and refill but if I did not have the CFR with its recycling than I reckon I would have taken at least another hour per lounge, at least.
However, a lot of houses are not any where near as bad, and the water does not get too dirty so the recycling issue is not a big thing (in my opinion). But you could always start cleaning the "clean areas" first, knowing they are "clean" - some may say why clean whats never seen the daylight anyway!
Doing clean areas first gets the solution circulating in the pipes and allows the heater to get going as well - and what a great heater it is.
And yes the carpets are left reasonably dry - I get customers to touch the carpet when I have finished AT THE LAST AREA I HAVE DONE and they are amazed at the lack of wetness - "not what it was like with the previous carpet cleaner".
Thats what I like happy customers!! :-*
Keep going with it, you will get used to it, and those CFR tools are pretty good as well.
If you need more reassurance - keep in touch.
Joe H
I like happy customers :-* :-* :-*
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Did you not think about these aspects before buying the CFR, you would see haw big it was and should have understood it's radical cleaning method.
A little bit of homework can save a lot of expense and disappointment
Who says I am disappointed?
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A question about the cfr,
if it re-circulates the same water, does the bad odours in things like urine get re- circulated into the carpet aswell, as it must be impossible to filter out this contamination?
just a thought?
regards
steve
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no, the tiny fraction of urine or anyother stain is diluted to such a degree, its like 1 particle in a million, plus the system is m/s, it does as it says. the more water you use in your tank the better, i fill my machine up to 15gls, for a better clean. cleaned a pub carpet today that had'nt been cleaned in years, used enzo soil one, intank at 425mls to 15gls & pre-spray 48mls to 3ltrs plus added the defoam, 100mls. because the carpet was altra greasey, half way through emptied half the tank & refilled. i am still amazed how good the system is. freshi
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filteration system, you have a filter in the wand, a filter over your pump inlet, a drum filter that covers your pump filter & t-bar "the t-bar has 2 jets each end that spins round very fast" plus 2 filters under you main hose intake. hope this helps doc
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Freshi sleeps with his CFR, it's like a comfort blanket to him.
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yep, it does'nt answer back & it never says no!!!!! them bonnets were black!
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Rotten mate, came out very clear on the pics you sent me.
Need to speak to you about thetre. have left you msg
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You really need proper instruction with this system from Amtech as its not a normal machine. Yes I did own one.
Mark
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You really need proper instruction with this system from Amtech as its not a normal machine.
Why?
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no, the tiny fraction of urine or anyother stain is diluted to such a degree, its like 1 particle in a million,
Based on what research exactly? Stop quoting random made up facts. 1 part in a million, you just pulled a figure out of your head. If I dilluted Polonium 210 to 1 part in a million would you then drink it?
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You will find with a little more experience the CFR system will give a very deep clean bearing in mind two points in particular. Prespray aggitate rinse is how to get the maximum from any HWE system and you can dwell, or make multi passes on heavily soiled areas without fear of overwetting with a CFR.
If you look for negative aspects of anything in life you will find them, to consider a recycling method to be " depositing " soiled water on clean areas is inaccurate and having identified a particularly dirty area common sense would tell you to leave that area till last.
You will get fantastic results from the system and it will earn you much more than previously
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This thread seems to have dwelled at the moment on the fact the CFR500 recirculates its cleaning water and that means any nasty pulled up gets recirculated, albeit in a diluted form.
Is any one out there suggesting that other systems, be it TM or portable actually extracts everything out of the carpet - everything!!!!
Do not all machines leave the carpets damp (or even wet in some cases).
What excactly is in that dampness??? Is it just clean water???
or could it be whatever was in the carpet that has not been fully extracted??
also, can anyone guarantee that they have covered every single square inch of a carpet??
Lifes a compromise.
Obviously not everone likes the principle of how a CFR machine works, just like many TM operators wont go back to portys and maybe porty owners dont want to go the TM way for whatever reasons.
The CFR500 suits me at this moment in time, and it is my opinion it will suit many other carpet cleaners too (but not all).
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jaybee, i am no plucking numbers out of the air, i have been trained by amtech to use this system & i have covered these issues that you have raised, but not in a negative way like you!! if you want more info about the system, wwwamtechuk.biz or cfrcorps.com or perfect-heat.com, i'm sure that these sites will address your issues with the cfr system, they back up there claims not with random figures, but with tried & tested reports.
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polonium i would not drink, but do you drink tap water, do you know whats in it? smart arse! you forget that cfr solutions are safe & environmentally friendly. quote; "many chemicals used to clean carpets contain volatile organic compounds, chemicals can provoke even worse allergic reactions for weeks after cleaning. the solvent-free cfr system is formulated to remove more soil than conventional carpet cleaning solutions & promote a safe, healthy, & productive environment" & "the cfr chemical system is scientifically formulated for optimal performance with the cfr recycling workstation" jaybee i strongly recommend that you try to get some formal training regarding this cleaning process & then you will learn from this how its formulations work. quotes were taken from the cfr 106 brocure, so you know that i'm not making it up. freshi
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Whoops!
and I was told that Clean It Up forum was a nice friendly place!!
seconds oout - round 3 (or is it round 4)
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This is mild compared to some of the humdingers we used to have on here. A good row does make it more interesting.
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polonium i would not drink, but do you drink tap water, do you know whats in it? smart arse! you forget that cfr solutions are safe & environmentally friendly. quote; "many chemicals used to clean carpets contain volatile organic compounds, chemicals can provoke even worse allergic reactions for weeks after cleaning. the solvent-free cfr system is formulated to remove more soil than conventional carpet cleaning solutions & promote a safe, healthy, & productive environment" & "the cfr chemical system is scientifically formulated for optimal performance with the cfr recycling workstation" jaybee i strongly recommend that you try to get some formal training regarding this cleaning process & then you will learn from this how its formulations work. quotes were taken from the cfr 106 brocure, so you know that i'm not making it up. freshi
Ahhh I get it - you got your "facts" from the suppliers of the machine. You must be a salesmans dream :)
I am not arguing with you - I am merely putting across my observations of the machine in an objective manner which certainly is a long way from the sales patter you will hear from Mr. CFR Salesman.
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no i'm not a sales man's dream, i did alot of research before going down this line of cleaning, infact i had been chewing it over for easily a good year! why did you buy 1 if all ya gonna do is knock it & those that use this system! i wonder do you blindly buy something without finding out what it does? ya can't win with you, if give advice you question it, if you give a factual statement i'm brainwashed, & you don't want an arguement! freshi
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Sorry Freshi but I like the way he's going about the love hate relationship about buying the machine.
When we buy things we can all get buyers remorse and weighing up the pros and cons of have I spent my hard earned dosh well goes through every ones mind. I prefer the openess as our egos can always say on the outside to the forum "well it's the best thing I've ever bought should have done it years ago!"
It takes time to change to a new system and when you are making a living you don't always have that time when the order book is full and if it is not the system for you then you off load it.
Carry on please.
Shaun
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shauni, i understand in what you say, but mr jaybee has already purchased one & then is asking or poking negativity at it, surely with this sort of cleaning process it is imperitive to do your research 1st, you only have to browse the other postings on this thread to see the sense in this. freshi
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He bought a CFR perfect heat the other day.
A few years ago I can remember it being demoed at the NEC, my initial thoughts would be to Truckmount it as it had 2 vacs, (not 1 as on a prostation) heat and run it from a Rascal van but I had already committed to a petrol TM.
Shaun
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Freshi
I think everyone's a bit confused by Jaybee and I suggest you accept that you have purchased an excellent machine which is capable of dealing with virtually anything you are likely to come across. If you have 75 feet of hose you will be able to leave the machine outside 90% of the houses you clean.
Don't get involved in negativety if you want to be a success in life. Some people only ever find fault or look for problems, ignore them as they can sew doubt in others minds and destroy confidence in products, or procedures or worse still, self. Do not get involved. Read another posting, look for marketing ideas as Nike Say " Just Do It "
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no i'm not a sales man's dream, i did alot of research before going down this line of cleaning, infact i had been chewing it over for easily a good year! why did you buy 1 if all ya gonna do is knock it & those that use this system! i wonder do you blindly buy something without finding out what it does? ya can't win with you, if give advice you question it, if you give a factual statement i'm brainwashed, & you don't want an arguement! freshi
Which of my statements about CFR do you think is untrue then? And if they aren't untrue what's your problem with me posting them? Are we only allowed to post positive things on here or something? I have positive things to say about the machine as well as negative ones, I was merely giving my initial reactions to using the machine that's all. As it happened, two days later I managed to break my hourly record for domestic work (meaning the most most money I have made in an hour), thanks mostly to not having to change the water.
So already the CFR is making me more money than my Numatic was on large jobs, but that should be expected as it is a much more expensive machine. However the downside is that for a simple lightly soiled lounge carpet I could be in and out of the job a lot faster with my Numatic than with the CFR so in that respect it will be a hinderence. I can see that I am definitely going to have to introduce a minimum order charge if I were to do every job with the CFR.
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Glad you are getting used to the CFR. Like you I spent a lot of money on it but never regretted it and never lost a nights sleep (and I am a worrier)
but its horses for courses Jaybee.
If you have room in your van it might be best to take a choice of equipment - that be your CFR or your Pneumatic or other machines.
Then when you get to the job just use the minimum to do a good job.
If that mans you use the Pneumatic then thats fine - less hours on the CFR.
Of course, what you charge is up to you - you may choose to have 2 rates - one for the CFR and lower one for the Pneumatic.
Personally as long it was a good job and the customer is happy I would have just one charge - the higher one.
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These are all interesting comments on the CFR system.
Here's another thought regarding the design of the CFR wand: the jet nozzles are housed in the same enclosure as the vacuum (unlike a conventional wand design). Therefore the solution being sprayed from the machine is subject to the force of the vacuum the instant it leaves the nozzle. It stands to reason, therefore, that the carpets are drier, but is this simply because the solution is being sucked away before it has properly penetrated the carpet fibres?
Given the design difference of the CFR wand, it seems to me that it is fairly meaningless to compare the psi of a CFR machine to that of a conventional HWE machine.
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northstar that is the conclusion i came to when i saw the machine demonstrated so i stuck with what i already knew and bought another ninja.
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"Here's another thought regarding the design of the CFR wand"
Thoughts are one thing - what happens in reality may be totally different.
You cant beat having a demo and working the machine yourself.
Now after 16 months of owning working a CFR 500 I KNOW it digs deep for dirt
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I KNOW it leaves the carept fairly dry
all due to the design I am sure.