Clean It Up
UK General Cleaning Forum => General Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: letzclean on August 26, 2007, 10:52:28 am
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I am going to have a meeting with estate agent on Tuesday with a view to clean their properties I would like some advice on negotiating i.e how I should start. I have a number of domestic cleaners that clean private individual houses I am hoping to charge £8 per hour pay the cleaner £5.50 and take £2.50 If anyone has experience of dealing with letting/estate agents your insight would be appreciated. Should I expect to clean a minimum amount of properties, should i charge per hour or for the amount of properties cleaned?
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letzclean
Why do you need advice on negotiating? Since you are in operation and already have clients why not use what you have learnt already and apply that in the same way?
I imagine the estate agent needs you to clean their properties that are to let? Or is this a service to home owners that they are offering? Whatever it is I personally think you should use this opportunity as an 'as and when' basis. It would not be professional to expect the estate agent to give work when there may not be any - "Should I expect to clean a minimum amount of properties" - that would drive any customer away since they are reliant on others and have no control as to when a property becomes vacant.
I would charge per hour - you don't know how bad the properties will be that you're going to clean - setting a cost could prove unworkable if you then suddenly get a property that is in a real mess and requires much more work then generally.
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Thank you Paul much appreciated I agree with you on a as and when basis would be a lot easier. But from the conversation I have had with them, I believe they have a rather large property portfolio 30+ across London. Thanks again for your advice ;)
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letzclean
Well, what can I say it does appear you'll be mighty busy - 30+ properties (WOW!) - congratulations on that and I sincerely wish you the best of luck on your meeting! 8)
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Letzclean,
Can I ask where your profit is at the prices you are looking to charge?
From the figures that you posted, how can you pay for insurance, H & S and all the rest, plus still make a profit?
Regards,
Rob
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I can see the point (in part) about charging by the hour BUT to me it seems to be a bit unprofessional to do so when so many 'companies' charge by the job, especially for one-offs. Usually the people who charge by the hour are those who provide a labour-only service. The sort of all-in-one service where a place is turned inside-out using all the cleaning materials of the company is one where usually an agreed price is given. I can never quite understand how work done can equal an hourly rate - surely this depends soley on how fast the cleaners work?
What would be the problem in visiting each property before the work was done to give a quote? Once two or three properties were done and the estate agent pleased with the work and the reliability then the prices could even be increased...I would also have thought the estate agent would be more keen on a job well done with no fuss than they would a cheap price?
I am still puzzled at hourly rates being chraged for cleaning, i can't think of many other things you 'buy' by the hour.
Stephen
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Bertie Boo
I guess it doesn't really matter whether it is hourly or as a 'one-off' charge for a particular job. However, charging an hourly rate (inclusive of whatever materials/profits are needed) allows for letzclean to be more flexible in case a 'one-off' job is taking longer than expected. They could simply give an estimate of the job and not an exact quote - though try and work within the estimate given.
I suppose a lot depends how one wants to work their business but I certainly wouldn't see one better than the other - but simply giving my own opinion.
Actually many major companies now prefer tenders to show everything, they want transparency and want to know everything from hourly rates to cost of materials and profit. So, keeping an hourly rate out the equation is never a good thing - you need to know where your money is going and be prepared to share all that information with any company requesting it......or find no work!
Just a few more thoughts. :)
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Robert
Why would letzclean be paying for H&S? Not sure I understand that bit of your questioning.
However I do agree with the rest of your statement. I wonder if they have thought about materials/equipment for these jobs that will be needed.......I'm also guessing the kitchens and all equipment will require cleaning, these materials aren't cheap.
Maybe letzclean should charge an hourly rate plus extra for materials etc. Showing these specific costs will always show openess & Honesty....we mustn't forget many companies don't want to feel cheated.
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Paul
Ypur comments are noted, but i stiill fail to see how one hour of my time is supposed to be identical to one hour of yours, and both be identical to one hour of someone elses...
I know for a fact that i work at differing speeds - ok there is no doubt that some jobs are going to take longer than others -for instance i'd vacuum an empty 5 bedroom house a lot faster than i would clean two arty farty dangly light fittings etc- but i'm saying that paying by the hour suggests that everybody cleans at the same speed.
Not only that, the avaliabilty and useabilty of cleaning materials will affect the time taken. I use all my own stuff, there is nothing i could ever need that i do not have (and know where to find) in the car. To be in someones house using their stuff, having to hunt for it, suss out how it works, put right anything that isnt working etc, would take time and presumably time that i was being paid to clean in (if charging by the hour).
But as you say its opinion.
cheers
Stephen
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Paul,
All tasks undertaken at work, have to comply with the Health & Safety legislation, this applies to the self employed as well as employer's and employee's.
I know far too many individuals and companies who fail in just this one aspect of legislation, these normally rely on information gleaned from forums such as this, or indeed the wider web.
Now dont get me wrong, sites such as this one and others, and indeed the w.w web, are a starting point, but the information that one can usefully glean from such points of access are very limited, there really is no substitute for real training and certification, this of course, all costs money!
The second point of my response was regarding the proper insurance, again many individuals and companies, choose their cover, not on what is required, but on price, some even fail to tell their own insurance companies the true extent and scope of their actual work activities in order to keep the cost of cover down.
My actual query, was how can Letzclean make any sort of profit on a take of £2.50 per hour, per cleaner?
Considering other expenses, such as payroll, tax, NI, transport, equipment, materials, training, advertising, and many many more.
A couple of our own staff, have recently decided to go it alone after spending 4yrs working with us :( , good cleaners and very nice people to boot, they worked their proper notice, and we parted as friends, spent 2 days with them, just banging some idea's around, they actually bank with barclays, same as us, but they were given the opportunity to purchase something called "Business Manager", this can include as little or as much info as you want or need including Health and Safety info, that seems better than a lot of stuff I have seen been bandied around, but even so, in the small print it advises you to obtain professional advice regarding your own set of circumstances!
Which, of course, is going to cost..
Remember that Letzclean has stated that this client has about 30 properties, fuel and time costs, has he allowed for this in his calculations?
Also, you can only show specific costs, if you truly know what these costs are!
Regards,
Rob
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£8 per hours is nowhere near enough. Try £15 at the least.
LA cleans IMO are amongst the most difficult in the industry.
You've got to run around for keys. Alot of the work is short notice and that's only a couple of the good bits ;D
Read what Rob posted, his replies are spot on
Don't sell yourself short.
Arthur
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Robert
I know all about the legislations and law regarding H & S but my comment was in reference to your comment highlighting cost: ".....how can you pay for insurance, H & S and all the rest......" H & S and COSHH actually costs nothing, however there are choices within the industry where self-improvements can be found in various ways - attending expensive courses and find much of what is on offer can be found for free on governmental websites. You're also able to purchase various information from the government fairly cheaply. Again, as this company grows I see them benefiting from the right courses but we are at present addressing a very young company who are not breaking any laws by *not* attending these courses.
I also disagree with some of your further comments. Having certificates dos not prove you have the competency to do the tasks. Too many certificates are relied upon........this can lead to confusion and may mean very little when someone may not have actually done the actual job or tasks for a long period of time. Experience, in my opinion, is the key and not a square piece of paper.
I will proudly mention I have no certificates or 'qualifications'....its done me no harm. I have been in cleaning for over twenty years and due to my experiences and skills I have recently undertaken consultancy work regarding tenders and cleaning on a major UK theme park and additionally to a prestigious company HQ relating to the construction industry where by all advice given was implemented with great success.
As for the rest of your comments I'm unsure as to why you have directed them at me - why would I need to know what your cleaners are doing or who they bank with? I have no doubts about your experience but it serves no purpose 'talking' down to someone in order to prove some kind of ability. It is best served aiming that experience at those that may need it.
I have made no comments disputing any help given to this company/person and I have simply given my own ideas/suggestions, albeit in brief. It certainly is not my business to go into great depths as to how one should go about their own business when, I thought, they were already in business so should be aware of their own costing.
It is always difficult to give complete and concise answers when questions are raised such as "I would like some advice on negotiating" This question should not have been asked since the company should have known - they already have clients - it is simply applying what they had learnt from that experience.
"I have a number of domestic cleaners that clean private individual houses" - What has this to do with letzclean actual question? There is no direct link, so again a puzzling one. I would like to stress that I am in no way disrespecting letzcleans thread - I realise it can be difficult to write down at times what one specifically needs. I merely refer to this to answer some of your comments..
I'm sure the comments you have made will benefit letzclean, I hope they do, it certainly is an opportunity for them not to miss....I'm sure some here would die for that amount of work! :)
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Stephen
Your comments are noted.
I wonder where I may have disputed what one hour meant to each and everyone of us? Of course an hour is different to evey individual.
Having an hourly rate does, in no way, imply everyone works at the same speed. You have a lot to learn if you want to clean for some major companies - many of them today will request you break down your tender into a transparent file. They want to see every single cost, including the hourly rate. What will you tell them at any meetings you may have with them if you're faced with that?
I also wonder where on this thread have I suggested working with someone else's materials?
Maybe you should read this entire thread again, or if you wish to try and create some form of conflict here by the amount of nonsense you have spurted out to me then please go elsewhere.....you sure ain't being helpful on this one!
"But as you say its opinion." - thank goodness!
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Erm paul, you've managed to entirely mis-understand what i've said.
Your choice of words and the anger in your tone of the same makes me realise the type of person you are (and its a type i've met before) so there's no point me saying anything else to you on this, i'd just be wasting my time.
Dont take yourself (or this forum) so seriously.
Stephen
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Stephen
If my message appears one of anger it would be wrong - its in fact entirely the opposite. Though as anyone will tell you vocal tone is not one that can be read....it has to be heard and that is where mis-understandings can happen - for that I make no apology.
My "tone" was one of questioning due to the content of your posting. You seem to have an issue with time, an hourly rate is just that - this does not indicate that we all work at the same time.
You are, supposedly, a professional person who has clients, the lack of understanding of the hourly rate on your part does suggest you are new to cleaning? Forgive me if I am mistaken.
As for use of using someone else's materials - I'm not sure where that discussion originated from or why it was ever mentioned.
Maybe you have hit the nail on the head and why certain individuals, on here, come across as very unprofessional simply because they don't take what they do seriously. I'm not here to rock the boat or to step on anyone's toes but I do prefer to give out advice that would benefit others whilst not holding their hands through the learning process. It does bring about the question as to who actually knows what - I have seen some here that have clients yet know very little about advertising, NI, tax, tenders or any forms relating to cleaning - now that is worrying and disturbing for the rest of the industry - though I guess that is why this forum is aimed more at the smaller end of the market than the more professional one. The information is out there, free for all, and believe me a lot is a lot more helpful than what I have discovered here - some people would be better doing there own research over the internet rather than relying on others here.
Its even more laughable when some treat the whole industry and this forum as if it is some kind of 'private club' - giving out particular (helpful!) material to some but not to others - what is that all about? In fact I have seen messages relating to this very same topic....interesting.
I make no apology for this message but it is how I see this forum..........so where cleaning is concerened and where people need advice then I'm glad I take that seriously. :)
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Crikey!! Its about time I interjected.
£8.50 per hour AND in London?
Post tenancy cleans and common way cleans are all I do as the money to be had are incredibly high.
I work on the south coast and my hourly rate just happens to work out at an average of £24.00 per hour. This is not a brag but a fact.
I don't charge an hourly rate as such; I price per job. Your client should never be aware of how much you earn per hour in my opinion.
When you go into the letting agency with your business card, public liabilty etc, submit a rates table for guidance: (my prices)
Light clean Deep clean
1 Bed property £80:00 £110:00
2 Bed property £105:00 £140:00
3 Bed property £130:00 £170:00
4 Bed property £180:00 £240:00
5 Bed property £225:00 £300:00
Carpet steam cleans:
1 Bed property £110:00
2 Bed property £140:00
3 Bed property £170:00
4 Bed property £240:00
5 Bed property £280:00
Instruct the letting agencies that the prices are only a guide and that it also incorporates their 10% commission fee.
My fixed costs per year are about £3000, and my actual running costs (fuel and cleaning materials) are about 2.5% of the gross.
Good luck
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i agree samuel
wherever possible i will quote a price rather than an hourly rate - even though it does mean having to visit the site twice - once to quote and once to carry out the work
£8.50 seems ridiculously low - either to work for yourself or try and make a profit employing others to work :-\
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Samuel - I disagree and clearly you have yet to deal with any kind of professional facilities.
Most major companies and organnisation where there are facilities you will be often required to show all costs - you have no choice in the matter....unless you prefer to stay in your comfort zone?
I urge those wishing to expand when they are ready to get use to revealing a break down in cost, including hourly rate and what your cleaners are paid.....including profit.
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Paul,
Much of what you say makes sense, in fact read between the lines of my posts, and you will find that we pretty much agree with each other!
You state that Health & Safety costs nothing; can I ask then why clients often spend thousands and thousands of pounds on H & S Consultants?
If we could all obtain H & S info of the net and forums such as this, companies could save themselves sometimes hundreds of thousands of pounds, thus increasing their profits and decreasing their own workload!
Everyone would be doing it, if you get on very well with a current customer of your own, just ask them how they deal with Health & Safety, 99 times out of a hundred, they will tell you that they use outside services or consultants, no one in business spends money needlessly, the reason in this case, is quite simple, the protection of life and limb, and the protection of one's business.
The fines that can be levied for breaking H & S rules are quite frightening!
Regarding certificates (training), how else are you going to prove that you are competent to do the job, that you have received H & S training?
Do you honestly believe that “I trained him/her" is enough to convince your clients, your insurance company or the HSE?
You also mention professionalism, how does that sit with the fact that many, many people within the industry have no training or recognised qualifications?
Yes experience does count, of course it does, but why do Bics and the NTO and lots of others, offer training if it is of no use.
The reason I mentioned the bank, was for the software that was available at a small cost, which would, for anyone reading the post point them in the right direction, regarding H & S, accounting etc, the info, from what I have seen, covers the legislation, not particularly well set out, but it seems to be all there, which in my opinion, is far better than using someone’s posted Health & Safety Policy statement, which of course, is not a "Health & Safety Policy"
Regarding breaking "any laws" Health & Safety legislation is quite clear, All self employed people must adhere to the legislation, All employers, have a legal duty to train their staff in H & S, All employers have to have a written H & S Policy if they employ more than 5 staff, not a policy statement, but a real H & S Policy, firms also have a legal duty to implement safe working practices and train their staff in these safe working practices.
I am also sorry to hear that you think that I am talking down to you personally or indeed Letzclean or anyone else, that was not my intention at all, please accept my apologies.
Lots of people, enter this industry, because they perceive it to be a low cost entry into the business world, get yourself a vacuum, mop bucket, some cloths, an ad in yellow pages or a website, some leaflets etc, and away you go, yes many, many people have started this way, but the legislation is becoming more draconian, with each passing month, surely its time we all started to take this seriously?
Regarding hourly rates, Paul is quite right in this respect, some prospects will insist on having all this financial information at tender time, this is not new, normally only happens on the bigger sites though. It’s not too difficult a process, with a semi decent accounting knowledge, one of the good points of this is that it allows the client to make reasonable comparisons between contractors, based on what they promise, and what they can actually deliver according to their own costings!
Regards,
Rob
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Crikey!! Its about time I interjected.
£8.50 per hour AND in London?
Post tenancy cleans and common way cleans are all I do as the money to be had are incredibly high.
I work on the south coast and my hourly rate just happens to work out at an average of £24.00 per hour. This is not a brag but a fact.
I don't charge an hourly rate as such; I price per job. Your client should never be aware of how much you earn per hour in my opinion.
When you go into the letting agency with your business card, public liabilty etc, submit a rates table for guidance: (my prices)
Light clean Deep clean
1 Bed property £80:00 £110:00
2 Bed property £105:00 £140:00
3 Bed property £130:00 £170:00
4 Bed property £180:00 £240:00
5 Bed property £225:00 £300:00
Carpet steam cleans:
1 Bed property £110:00
2 Bed property £140:00
3 Bed property £170:00
4 Bed property £240:00
5 Bed property £280:00
Instruct the letting agencies that the prices are only a guide and that it also incorporates their 10% commission fee.
My fixed costs per year are about £3000, and my actual running costs (fuel and cleaning materials) are about 2.5% of the gross.
Good luck
Hi Samuel,
Your deep clean prices?? How can you charge those prices and end up with £24 per hour? Even if there only guide prices, surely you can't up them that much.
We clean for LA's that deal with the upmarket properties. Swimming pools etc.. and there's no way that we would ever average £24 per hour, and that's not me under charging either as we're expensive in comparison to most companies in our area.
I'm not saying that you don't get £24, i'm more curious as to how you manage to charge like that and complete deep cleans for that price. To deep clean a 1 bed for £110 at that rate is around 5 hours
Arthur
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Art,
1 Bedroom flat deep clean consists of:
Kitchen: Remove carbon build up in oven cavity. Deep clean oven and hob.
De-grease and clean cooker hood. Clean all base and wall units inside and out. Clean and shine polish kitchen tiles. Clean and shine polish sink, drainer and taps. Damp mop floor.
Bathroom: Acid wash toilet. Clean and shine polish all sanitary ware, chrome fittings and the like. Clean and shine polish bathroom tiles. Clean and sanitize toilet seat, lid and surrounds. Damp mop floor.
Paintwork: Remove all dust, dirt and scuff marks from all walls, doors, door surrounds, architraves, window sills and frames.
Glass: Clean and shine polish all glazing internally and externally where accessible.
Vacuum all carpeting throughout. Remove all cobwebs and fly trappings.
The kitchen and bathroom are usually the worst rooms to tackle and so I deal with these first by applying the necessary chemicals and letting them do the work. A 1 bedroom flat in 5 hours is easily achieved without cutting corners and still doing a first rate job.... I work for three letting agencies and they sing my praises.
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Robert
Companies spend thousands because they are at that level where they do indeed need to be covered for all kinds of disasters. Their responsibilities differ vastly from those of a much smaller firm just starting out.
I haven't disputed the need or the expertise, but I merely refer to those simply just starting out that there is no need to spend out.....that is why the government issue much of the information for free. As a company/business grows I would recommend, as you have done, going on courses, when a cleaning company approaches a major organisation then obviously H & S/COSHH (etc.) certificates will be needed more so than ever. It is also a matter of choice, someone new within the cleaning industry having spare cash would do well to invest to get the training but, dare I say, not many people have that kind of money to begin with.......that is why I have expressed the attitude that I have.
Breaking health and safety regulations and receiving a fine does not depend on whether one has a certificate or not - it simply means you have not followed the rules laid out.
Some insurance companies may request you have valid H & S certificates, others do not request that......if they all requested that information then many here would not be insured.
I agree with you, Robert, I personally would advise anyone seeking a Health and Safety policy not to rely what is found or offered here. There are policies out there and also information regarding this can be obtained for free (again!) from the government websites.
You are correct legislation, regarding H & S and COSHH, are extremely clear and actually easy to understand but it does not state that anyone operating a company have to be certified in order to give the training. Many here would benefit from studying the legislation as I do believe some are not that knowledgeable - that is where the danger is and not with those not being certified as H & S/COSHH trained.
Again, Robert, I do agree that some do think that entering the cleaning industry is an easy option of making money - and there is money to be made (I know that from my own experiences) but I fear some don't do enough research to prepare for what is expected of them whether that be legislation or simply common business sense.
I have to chuckle, again you are absolutely right, things are becoming far to draconian and everything seems to be working against the industry than for it.....some of our thoughts clearly are the same!
Here! here! We all should take it seriously but we must also help those just starting out - some here don't offer enough help when they have that experience whilst others offer too much help. I know that may seem strange to some but the important part of setting up a business is not always about rewards, expect a bit of rough and tumble....expect to lose money as well as contracts but the hand holding really has to end.
My advice to some is to stop relying on others too much - research and start asking further afield since the help is there and that information found can be far more rewarding than what is (sometimes) offered here.
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Thanks for the reply. Maybe we're being to particular as an oven can take anything up to 2 hours on it's own.
Is there much competition down your way?
Arthur
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Yes Art, I'm afraid so... Never the less there is plenty of work to go around.
You may know Martin 606 who posts on this forum quite regularly. I met Martin about three months ago when I invited him over for a carpet cleaning demo. Martin will, I'm sure, concur with me about all the facts and figures that I posted regarding post tenancy cleans as he is also very prominant in this line of work. In fact, he might say I'm too cheap!
Common way cleans are an absolute boon as well. I now have 5 main contracts, average plot being 46 flats. Using the number of flats as a multiplier you can command good money. I've never lost out on a tender that I have bid for. Example: 46 flats x £2:20 each = £101.20 per visit which is equivalent to £438 per calendar month. This would take me about 4 hours per visit doing a thorough job and work out at a cost of £25:25 per hour!
Samuel
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I never doubted your prices and yes i know Martin earns high hourly rates.
The rates down there wouldn't be possible around here as there's far to many companies that clean for peanuts. Might have to relocate to Brighton ;D
The communal areas is something we do aswell and if you think back, i was one of the people that advised you on pricing ;)
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Now that you mention it Art, yes I do remember and for that I'm very grateful.
It's amazing in just 8 months what anyone can achieve. Back in January I barely had any work. Martin came along with me to a new acquisition called OCEANIQUE in Rustington to give me a carpet cleaning demo. I had tendered for that job when it was still flat ground! If you google it theres a lot of info on this prestigious block. Since then, I have gained two more. These are from block managers that I contacted a year ago... So it just goes to show that patience is a virtue!
Google: Oceanique, Rustington.
And thank you Art.
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Hi Guys
Just thought I would let you lot know what I do for EOT cleans. I have 7 letting/estate agents on my books and each of them never asks how much prior to a clean - strange as it seems, on introduction I gave each company an indication of how much certain types of properties would cost but more importantley emphaised the fact that they would receive a 1st class guaranteed service. Our rates work out at at least £40.00 per hour for two cleaners. There is alot of money to be made from EOT cleans but it does appear to vary an enourmous amount as to how much you charge, depending on the area you are covering. All of our lettings agents have commented on how good their properties look and keep coming back. What you also have to remember is that the letting agents arn't the ones paying for the cleans we do - its the tenant and generally comes out of their deposit. Good times! ;) Trudi
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Hi all
Well this has been a healthy debate if nowt else. Paul I accept your apologise and I apologise too if what I wrote was put in such a way that it could be misunderstood.
What I meant about using clients materials was meant as a "what if you charge by the hour and are supposed to go hunting for all that you need in that time"? It was the £8.50 per hour that threw me as I didn't see how -for that figure- materials and equipment could possibly be included.
I am not 'new' to this at all, but as I work alone I am of course very limited to the areas in which I have worked. Mainly I do domestic cleaning, although 2 years ago I was cleaning an office unit 5 nights a week for an ex-employer of mine. Nice place, small company, again I worked alone, although I gave it up when I had enough domestic work in the daytime. To a point I was a bit spoilt there because they never asked for a risk assessment off me, nor any health and safety info etc, to be honest they (and indeed most all of the companies I have done work for) are not overly bothered by H+S (or lack thereof) which is quite a worry, but my point here is that I never quite got around to finding out what I am supposed to do re:H+S statements etc.
Anyway, the only things I left on-site were the equipment, the electrical items were PAT tested and the cleaning products removed and taken home with me each evening. I take the H+S very seriously and I work carefully.
The guy who was responsible for my being there was somewhat 'surprised' at my refusal to give an hourly rate for the work, I said that I always and only ever quote for the job. At the end of the day he wanted ME to do the work (I think having -seemingly- used every other cleaning company in the district in 12 month blocks...) and we agreed a price-per-visit and he left it to me to make sure that the cleaning was done in rotation over the 5 evenings per week.
The other businesses I have worked for have all been one-off jobs, the last time being an office that had just been acquired by the company in the adjoining building. They were desperate to get it cleaned through, having waited in vain for their regular cleaning company to get back to them with a price, and by the time I was called to have a look it was a case of "How much do you want and when can you come?". Suffice to say I go that job ;D
I was one of those people who started up with no more than a small collection of cleaning equipment and public liability insurance. I never doubted it would be hard work but I was desperate to become self-employed in order to fulfil some other things in my life that were on-hold due to a 9-5 job and as I love cleaning it was the quickest and most appropriate way for me to get going. Once I realised once and for all that I was not going to expand and was happy working alone I was more sure of where I was going, and my long term plans are to use my cleaning and other work experiences to go into NVQ training (in cleaning).
I too firmly believe that there is not enough training, respect, and understanding of the cleaning industry, but at the same time I don't have any useful answers either (not when wages have to be low in order to make a profit...) which I suppose is another reason why I work on my own. For what I'd be able to pay my staff I would be ashamed to do so, especially with what they would have to do in the job. I consider myself lucky that all of my clients are regulars -the most irregular being every 4 weeks- so the work is straight-forward because its domestic work and because I've gradually knocked them into shape. Unfortunately it doesn't pay as well as one-off work, although I have been told here that I don't charge enough (which confuses me as I know very well what the local competition is charging and I'm very near to it, indeed charge more than some other organisations do) but then I don't have to advertise or hope that work comes in.
It is interesting what you said about some companies wanting explicit breakdowns of the cleaning quotes - how common is this and do they apply the same to other (non cleaning) contractors?
Cheers
Stephen
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Now that you mention it Art, yes I do remember and for that I'm very grateful.
It's amazing in just 8 months what anyone can achieve. Back in January I barely had any work. Martin came along with me to a new acquisition called OCEANIQUE in Rustington to give me a carpet cleaning demo. I had tendered for that job when it was still flat ground! If you google it theres a lot of info on this prestigious block. Since then, I have gained two more. These are from block managers that I contacted a year ago... So it just goes to show that patience is a virtue!
Google: Oceanique, Rustington.
And thank you Art.
Glad the works coming in for you mate
Arthur
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Stephen
I understand your comments about what someone was willing to charge per the hour. I have to admit (unless I am absolutely sure) will avoid mentioning what someone should charge. I feel strongly about this since if someone is already working with clients then they should know what their costings are, so I refrain from discussing it. If though it is wrong then that is a mistake they must learn on their own. I know it sounds tough/harsh but we must learn through experiences - if we always advise others on what they should be charging then not only will they not learn but they could then point an excusing finger if things go wrong. Sometimes its better to take a step back and let them proceed..........
I'm glad that you have written what you have - I think it is helpful to understand that no matter how important something is there will be those that are not that bothered, I refer to your comments about the H & S.
I take this issue very seriously - but it is only relevant when those rules are broken - I hope some here understand what I mean by that. Learn the H & S, even if it appears those higher up seem not to acknowledge them since it'll be your down fall and not theirs when things go wrong. Even in the smallest of businesses, you can teach yourself H & S, COSHH, Risk Assessments, Method Statements - all of which *are* necessary but there is no excuse for not learning them.....and eventually getting the training in order to gain certification.
Like yourself, Stephen, I've had opportunities in working with some not so small cleaning companies and considering these were companies that have been around for a good few years it was shocking to learn how they did not care about H & S....COSHH and lone working - all the while claiming (though true) they were registered with this, that and everything else...including BiCS trained!!
Worrying isn't it!?
Honestly Stephen, its hard working getting everything together but its not difficult to understand. As hopefully you're finding out. In fact just as a matter worth thinking - many, including the 'big boys' seem to think that having a file with all the necessary stuff is enough, in fact, many do not realise that by law you must also have a H & S poster...or was it COSHH?........in view where this stuff is kept, which is normally the cleaning cupboard. Not many people know that part of the law!!
I also wonder if that part features in the BiCS training?
I wish you the best of luck with your NVQ training - I would like to point out here that I do find training important in every aspect but experience must come first (in my opinion) and gradually when it is more affordable take up the courses on offer. I do urge caution to everyone reading this to be careful of the courses operated by the Chamber of Commerce - check them out beforehand, even though they are often free it is not good to ever get bad advice, sadly it appears the trainers on these are often failed business people that don't even know about TUPE law and may even think it does not apply to you....................it does!!
Stephen, you clearly have checked out competition and you know what you need in order to pay out all the necessaries and still make a profit. Sometimes you will discover that your charges were far too low or worse find that you're not earning anything - tough- part of the cleaning industry, but amazingly sometimes you'll find you're on a real winner when someone is paying way over the odds and you're raking it in from one contract - just a few words, if that ever does happen to you just make sure you do a darn good job and give them no reason to look into the cost of the cleaning unless absolutely necessary! ;)
Many of today's companies will request a break down of ALL charges - the term is transparency - anyone putting in a tender via facilities management will be faced with the same requests - that is why I stressed what I did previously - if a cleaning company has an attitude, when invited to tender for a company, about allowing others to have this information just remember that they will always be bigger than you and your tender will simply be shredded.
I will also add that companies (major) will always request the same information such as H & S certificates and COSHH etc - this is also seen when sub-contractors have access to their properties.
Robert certainly had a great word for it - draconian!
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paul
WRT the training, so far i've completed NVQ levels 1+2, infection control 1+2 and BICs stage one, although i had to pay for the BICs course (which was not cheap) so i dont think i will be doing another just yet. Although BICs courses may touch upon the basics of COSHH, this as i recall is not part of the course - basically there are approxomatly 40 different cleaning 'skills' that are taught, on each course 10 are selected for the candidate. These can be done externally (like i did, through a college) or the company can have its own internal BICs person who will be moderated by BICs once a year...in the latter case i suppose the training given to staff will only be as good as the person giving it...
The college i did the courses at is very big and the staff in cleaning science all have a minimum of 10 years in the 'industry' prior to being in training, but i know what you mean about the possibility of trainers who have no experience.
A good friend of mine is an NVQ assesor (he'd previously spent quite a while -and longer than he'd planned lol- being a caretaker whilst 'between jobs' and got into training about 6 years back) and its the route i'd like to go down. I am looking now for vacancies BUT a lot of them say they give preference to someone who already has the A1 assesors qualification, which of course i dont have yet and can't get until i get a job in training where they are willing to put me on the A1 course...its a bit of a viscious circle really. My friend was very lucky when he got his job as the college was quite willing to train anyone who they thought was suiteable for the training role.
cheers
Stephen
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Stephen
As you say, the BiCS courses certainly aren't cheap.
I know some of the methods that BiCS prefer to teach - an industry standard - like putting a bog seat/cover down before flushing it! WHAT!?
Can those at BiCS possibly give a genuine reason for a toilet seat having to be down before flushing?
Before anyone decides to respond, I already know the answer - splash back. So, given the reason, why do we not have an automated flush systems where a toilet will only flush when the entire seat is down? Do we worry when we visit a public toilet? Do we worry when our children are in school sharing toilets and flushing while the seat and cover are still up? So, what are the true risks of catching something from a splash back...............zilch.....unless a cleaner is going to be on their hands and knees with their heading almost touching the bottom of the basin. So why this silly little rule?
If there truly was a risk to health then I think we would see more of a response from local authorities and schools to protect not only members of the public but young people as well.
The above is an example as to why I find some of these industry methods a little on the ridiculous side. I understand the reasons for having H & S rules and regulations but please..........
Okay....I'll remove myself from the soap box.....for a while :)
Good luck with furthering your career within the industry.
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thank you all for your comments, opinions and suggestions, meeting got postponed untill tommorow had a heavy weekend as you do! ;) ;D I appreciate you giving your time. Happy Cleaning
LC
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....erm ok paul
I did find the BICs training to be on the basic side, although that is not a complaint as i knew what to expect having spoking at length before hand to the head of Cleaning Science at the college where i took the course. For me i was more interested in the certificate that i'd be getting rather that learning how to do what i'd been doing for years any way (although as expected i did pick up a few new tricks from the course). I thought the course gave good basic core skills esp for those i trained with who had never done any cleaning before (which was a worry, or so i thought).
But for the record i have to admit i am one of those who worries about the H+S of using a public loo, esp those without lids. That said, i did work briefly on the tills at Tesco when i started my buisness (i needed some regular money so needs must...) and having seen what went on there 'behind the scenes' i choose not to think too much about what might happen - if i did i'd never leave the house ;D
Stephen
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Thanks Guys,
Meeting went well was easy really! It is for the communal parts of a 12 properties on a regular weekly basis and we still have the end of tenancy and tenant cleans to negotiate. Yeh I may have sold short at £8.50 but a little of something is better than a lot of nothing!
Have a good day