Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: simon knight on August 17, 2007, 07:41:00 pm
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...did a new customer today...4 bed terraced house in and out.
Nothing tricky and took just over an hour. Charged £25 and she's delighted...Great!
We got chatting and she said her last w/c took 10 minutes... :o
I challenge her on this and she assured me that "yes he literally took 10 minutes"
Is this for in and out I ask...no just the out she replies.
Even so, the out took me roughly 1/2 hr and I'm not the slowest worker on Gods Earth.
And no: He wasn't wfp.
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I just didn't want the job any more... ;)
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;D
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he must be on whizz
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We have a cleaner around here who is easily that quick, but the results are crap. He is known to his customers as port holes because that is what it is like when you look out of a window that he has cleaned!
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I often see a window cleaner around where I live who is like grease lightning. He just mops the window and squeegies it. Sometimes you can see all the runs down the glass from quiet a distance.
There again, he does only charge £4 for a 2 bedroom semi. I charge £12.
Also, his ladder is so worn at the bottom that the 1st rung is only about 6" from the ground. How it doesn't slide is a mystery.
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Surely it should be £25 for the outside and at least another £25 for the inside?
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Surely it should be £25 for the outside and at least another £25 for the inside?
???
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Surely it should be £25 for the outside and at least another £25 for the inside?
So your rate is £50 per hour ::)
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Oh..... right.
I still don't get it.
I'm getting old.
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Oh..... right.
I still don't get it.
I'm getting old.
48 is not old, it's past it ;D
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...did a new customer today...4 bed terraced house in and out.
Nothing tricky and took just over an hour. Charged £25 and she's delighted...Great!
We got chatting and she said her last w/c took 10 minutes... :o
I challenge her on this and she assured me that "yes he literally took 10 minutes"
Is this for in and out I ask...no just the out she replies.
Even so, the out took me roughly 1/2 hr and I'm not the slowest worker on Gods Earth.
And no: He wasn't wfp.
we always charge double min (if real bad inside triple) the out side cost 4 bed about £12.50 (without looking) in and out min £37.50 (bad would be £50 if it took an hour and charged by the hour at £50 min, we get this day in day out wihout complain higher sometimes.
I am not getting into doing inside and out for the same price ever (done that once), you damage there carpet they want it replaced (get danger money) we do ;) only take one customer to say you did this, you either pay it yourself say £200 or you claim on insurance and your rate goes up, logic tells you to charge more.
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I avoid insides like the plague.
I found that telling people i charge double the outside cost soon cools interest.
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I avoid insides like the plague.
I found that telling people i charge double the outside cost soon cools interest.
found that aswell, I do not like them at all but 2 or three times our normal hourly rate SUITS ME SIR.........
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I have a few regulars for insides but i avoid smokers.
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I have a few regulars for insides but i avoid smokers.
dont avoid them, just charge more (YOUR IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY)
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I have a few regulars for insides but i avoid smokers.
dont avoid them, just charge more (YOUR IN BUSINESS TO MAKE MONEY)
I know what your saying but i suppose i'm lucky that i can pick & choose. I never burn my bridges as you never know whats round the corner.
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Surely it should be £25 for the outside and at least another £25 for the inside?
So your rate is £50 per hour ::)
Yes!! ;)
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:o :o Pigs and flying come to mind :o :o
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:o :o Pigs and flying come to mind :o :o
So Mr Asbo are you calling me a liar?? because I take offence at that!! >:( I was trying to advise Simon that he should be charging more in my opinion, I don't like to talk about money usually but a good window cleaners best work should be approaching £50 an hour at least! I won't tell you how much an hour my very best work is, if you don't believe £50 an hour you certainly won't believe what I take on my best work!! ;D
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Bushpig, you're a rip off. ;D
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I do a good job, I am reliable, both very rare with window cleaners around here. There is another cleaner who lives near me and he earns a lot of money, he prices cheap and does a lightning speed cheap job, but because of his speed his hourly rate is high! I do a high quality job and charge on average double what he charges sometimes more, but there are many people who are prepared to pay because of the quality of work!
We are running businesses not working for someone, whatever we take is turnover, not your take home pay. I was a train driver for 10 years and we used to take about £20 an hour when I left 2 years ago, now to be as well off I probably need to take more than double that amount, even more than that probably if you take into consideration sick pay, holiday pay and pension! come to think of it why did I ever leave! :-\
Oh yes I remember - the freedom I now get to choose how and when I work, and to not have a boss!! ;D
So my advice is for everyone to charge the highest prices they can, thats what we are in business for isn't it!!! ;)
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Bushpig, you're a rip off. ;D
I think hes talking out of what he sits on ;D
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:o :o Pigs and flying come to mind :o :o
So Mr Asbo are you calling me a liar?? because I take offence at that!! >:( I was trying to advise Simon that he should be charging more in my opinion, I don't like to talk about money usually but a good window cleaners best work should be approaching £50 an hour at least! I won't tell you how much an hour my very best work is, if you don't believe £50 an hour you certainly won't believe what I take on my best work!! ;D
I would believe you I think. My very best work exceeds a pound a minute but that's only a tiny percentage of it. I just wish I had a lot more of it. It wouldn't surprise me if a few people are turning over £100+ an hour on their best work.
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Guys. I'm sorry but i don't understand the concept of "best work"....surely every job we do should be "best work".
As for £25 an hour....suits me Sir!
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Simon you should always be striving to get better and better work, if you are getting every job that you quote for then you are far too cheap. My round is full now so any new work I take on has to be well worth my while, so I am pricing higher and higher, and now only expect to get about 1 in every 5 jobs that I quote for, which is great because it means that every new job I get is a good one! and will probably replace my lower paying work which I took on when I was starting out. £25 an hour sounds good and it would be if it was your wages, but it is not, it is turn over which means that all your business expenses come out of that, so therefore probably making you no better off than someone who works for someone else doing a similar job!! :(
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I agree with that Groundhog,theres no point in having a diary full of rubbish.I`m the same most of the jobs i quote for i would only expect to get maybe 3-4 in 10 quotes,i`m constantly replacing work with better paying stuff these days and passing on work.Getting in a rutt and doing work for the sake of it is to common in this job.
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I hear you Groundhog but: At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.
But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time ::)
I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.
I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.
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Nice one nwh! thats the way to do it!! ;D
Simon, good for you if your happy with that! personally I would rather make as much money as I can!! ;D
As window cleaners we barely scratch the surface where money is concerned, I was talking to one of my customers the other day, he calls himself a 'communications consultant' which basically means that he goes around large companies teaching their employees how to write better Emails and letters ect, he charges £1000 a day for teaching people 'common sense' as he puts it!!
I also work for a city trader who recently travelled to Brasil for a meeting and was gone for one day, how much do you think the ticket was for the jet his company chartered for him? It was £7000!!!! It makes our £25 an hour look like pocket money dosn't it?
So come on fellow window cleaners don't sell yourselves short, there is money out there to be had, and we work hard so deserve a decent share of it!!! :)
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Nice one nwh! thats the way to do it!! ;D
Simon, good for you if your happy with that! personally I would rather make as much money as I can!! ;D
As window cleaners we barely scratch the surface where money is concerned, I was talking to one of my customers the other day, he calls himself a 'communications consultant' which basically means that he goes around large companies teaching their employees how to write better Emails and letters ect, he charges £1000 a day for teaching people 'common sense' as he puts it!!
I also work for a city trader who recently travelled to Brasil for a meeting and was gone for one day, how much do you think the ticket was for the jet his company chartered for him? It was £7000!!!! It makes our £25 an hour look like pocket money dosn't it?
So come on fellow window cleaners don't sell yourselves short, there is money out there to be had, and we work hard so deserve a decent share of it!!! :)
Can I come and work for you then? :)
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Yes sure you can - for £7.50 an hour which rises to £10 after a satisfactory 3 month trial! ;)
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Yes sure you can - for £7.50 an hour which rises to £10 after a satisfactory 3 month trial! ;)
I couldn't afford you :)
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Groundhog, you said "My round is full now so any new work I take on has to be well worth my while, so I am pricing higher and higher,". Well if your round is full why are you taking on new work? I would have to assume that when you take on one of these new (inflated) jobs, you will have to drop one or more of your old customers. Just adds to the "unreliable window cleaner syndrome".
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I`m not in this job for the most reliable wc award and i don`t think Groundhog is either,just politley pass it on and replace it with a better paying one.If it`s done the right way the customer will never no the real reason.
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I`m not in this job for the most reliable wc award and i don`t think Groundhog is either,just politley pass it on and replace it with a better paying one.If it`s done the right way the customer will never no the real reason.
I agree with this and groundhog. There is no point being sentimental for the sake of earning less. Some people are happy to plod along for the freedom alone while others want to do this and earn higher. Others are in business to try to make as much as they possibly can. It is horses for courses.
I think you have to look at your 'business' as a living thing. It grows and changes most of the time. Once things become static the business will suffer. Onwards and upwards is the way to go.
I don't think unreliabilty comes into it when you drop the job. We are not obligated to our ex customers, only our present ones. But our first obligation has to be to ourselves at all times.
I don't see the sense in earning £30 an hour if it is stopping us from earning more.
That's very noble but makes no economic sense.
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It's good to see that there are some on here who want to better themselves and their rounds! by constantly striving to improve the quality of their work!!! Good on yer NWH and Mark :)
And Jimjam or whatever your name is? Why do you think that I am still taking on new work? To improve the quality and value of my round thats why!! It's not complicated really you know!!! ;D ;)
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I think everyone who works for themselves should have a business plan.
If you are just starting to build a w/c round your need is to a build a customer base. The temptation is to underprice your work to increase your customer base. Big mistake as you end up with a w/c round paying you a low wage.
What Groundhog is saying makes a lot of sense. If you take say a minimum of £25.00 per hour, You have 4 days work working 8 hours a day. you will earn Gross £800.00 a week.
You have the option of another day to work, So when you are asked to price another customer up will you price up to £25.00 per hour, Or do you have a Business plan to increase what you earn per hour from then on. You can now set your sights higher, You can price up all new customers up at say £40.00 an hour. Over a period of time your hourly rate will improve as new customers come in on the higher rate and you lose customers on the lower rate.
If you gain lots of new customers at £40.00 an hour and you dont want to work more then 4 days a week you then have the option of selling some lower paid work, or work you dont like doeing to another w/c, increasing your Gross take home pay for the year.
Over a period of time you will find your rate per hour will improve, that maybe in 5 years time your average rate as now increased to £40.00 an hour. In that case new work comes in at £50 or £60 an hour. 32 hours x £40.00 an hour = £1280.00 a week. Thats earning £480.00 extra a week working the same hours as you did at £25.00 an hour.
Its a good business plan and one that makes sound ecnomic sense. Do not let the barriers you set in your own mind restrict your possible earnings. You will still keep a loyal customer base who appreciate a high class service at increased prices. I know I still have customers who have been with me for nearly 30 years.
The only problem some will face is, if you ask a high price you have to be able to clean to a very high standard. If you cant you will lose customers. If you can it will be reflected in what you earn each and every day you work.
Groundhog is offering some sound advice.
Nel.
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Thanks Neil, your post makes a lot of sense! I hope it encourages others to take action to improve the quality and value of their work!! :)
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I've picked up a couple in a village near me because someone was pricing too high.
They're good jobs too.
The last window cleaner doesn't know he's dumped yet, but he was charging so much they asked me for a quote.
He wanted £30-odd for what I asked £20.
I see it as 20-25 mins work, so I've got a really good price. :)
It's going to lead to others too.
Don't know if it's a cleaner I know, but I don't feel any guilt when they were ripping people off. ;)
You can't price too high, people will look elsewhere.
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Theres plenty of work out there without the need to undercut others!! >:( I hope some nipper comes along and offers to do it for a tenner!!!! ;D
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How can you say he was ripping them off as they obviously agreed the price? ???
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I've picked up a couple in a village near me because someone was pricing too high.
They're good jobs too.
The last window cleaner doesn't know he's dumped yet, but he was charging so much they asked me for a quote.
He wanted £30-odd for what I asked £20.
I see it as 20-25 mins work, so I've got a really good price. :)
It's going to lead to others too.
Don't know if it's a cleaner I know, but I don't feel any guilt when they were ripping people off. ;)
You can't price too high, people will look elsewhere.
It can be difficult pitching it right.
I know a several W/Cs within a few miles from me who quote a lot higher than I do - and I already quote a fair bit higher than I used to. It can be a tricky situation really. Personally, I would just prefer people to ask for a quote without giving me the lowdown on whether or not they currently have a W/C. If they have already sacked a W/C and tell me that it was someone who I know that quotes very high, then I have been known to quote a bit higher than normal knowing that I will stay within the customer's previous price. I have turned work away before if a guy I know is currently cleaning for them. Perhaps I shouldn't but I get along OK with other window cleaners and don't want to spoil that. A couple of guys have even put bits of WFP work my way because they were using trad tools and were unable to do the job. I've put work other people's way that weren't really suited to WFP.
In a price war nobody wins except the customer so I try to avoid it. To go higher than a pound a minute with domestic does make the job vulnerable to be lost IMO. In fact, I lost one job several years ago for daring to up the price from £5.50 to £6 when I should have been charging a tenner.
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How can you say he was ripping them off as they obviously agreed the price? ???
Yeah, then a month later they asked me.
Clearly too expensive.
Perhaps he was the only window cleaner they'd seen.
His loss, my gain.
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Theres plenty of work out there without the need to undercut others!! >:( I hope some nipper comes along and offers to do it for a tenner!!!! ;D
How can I have undercut if they ask me for a quote, then afterwards tell me I'm £10 cheaper?
Not my problem.
If he didn't overprice they wouldn't have asked me.
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I doubt he will be that bothered as there are plenty more customers out there prepared to pay a good price for a quality job!
You just carry on building your low priced round and undercutting other window cleaners and you will end up with a round full of crap, and customers who will drop you the first time a cheaper window cleaner knocks on their door!! ;)
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I feel that if people can get away with £50ph then good luck to them but personally I think that £25ph is plenty for what is basically unskilled labour.
As I said before if i charge £25 I'll go back 6 times a year. But at £50 it'd be 2 perhaps 3 times because very very few people are going to want to spend £300 on their windows...certainly none of my customers.
Also at £50 I'd have to deliver pretty damn near perfect results...and with the best will in the world I can't deliver perfection.
Finally at £50 I'd be open to being undercut...and rightly so!
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groundhog get in touch with me if your selling any work doesnt matter if you live in lands end and im in john of groats,im sure it will still be worth my while lol :-) seriously if your looking to offload work in the future give me a shout.
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Simon let someone else do your pricing for you mate,you obviously don`t value yourself.
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i agree with squeeky if someone asks for my qoute and i am cheaper then i will take on the job and if someone undercuts me then that is ok to, each person works for what they think is necassary groundhog mentioned paying someone £7.50 an hour and their are good window cleaners working for others at that rate so to ask for £50 or £60 an hour i think is a rip of and to say that you do a better job than others because you charge more is just ridiculous there are people charging a lot and doing a crap job the same as people charging cheap and doing a good job.
On the other hand if you are getting those sort of prices then it is no good complaining if you do get undercut because you are leaving yourself wide open for that to happen, if someone undercuts me then it is only going to be by a small amount and the customer probably wont bother changing but when you are undercut the price differance will be worth trying a new window cleaner.
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If i charge £50 per clean for a house and do it for a year and do it say 6 times that`s £300,if another wc does the same type of house and charges £25 he makes £150,so really compared to my prices he will clean them for a year for nothing.This is not just an example there are wcs working and pricing jobs far to low,i doubled the price of a job another wc used to do and all they said was that`s great but can you come more often than the other wc,say no more if you charge to low it can work against you beleive it or not,they can think your just in it for the bear money if you price to cheap.
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How can I have undercut if they ask me for a quote, then afterwards tell me I'm £10 cheaper?
Not my problem.
If he didn't overprice they wouldn't have asked me.
Squeaky,
Perhaps he wasn't overpricing? Perhaps you are underpricing?
Perhaps it took him an hour to do each house to a high standard, whilst you'll take 20 mins and do it to not as high a standard?
Andy
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or maybe squeeky will do it in twenty minutes and do a better job when will people see that price has nothing to do with the quallity of the job.
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As I said before if i charge £25 I'll go back 6 times a year. But at £50 it'd be 2 perhaps 3 times
So you would rather work 6 hours for £150 than work 3 hours for £150? ;D Thats not good business sense!! ;)
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Also at £50 I'd have to deliver pretty d**n near perfect results...and with the best will in the world I can't deliver perfection.
I think this statement effectively explains why some window cleaners are able to charge a higher price than others! - enough said ;)
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Also at £50 I'd have to deliver pretty d**n near perfect results...and with the best will in the world I can't deliver perfection.
I think this statement effectively explains why some window cleaners are able to charge a higher price than others! - enough said ;)
Obviously you're implying that you do deliver perfect results...which I don't dispute. So on that basis with your perfect results your services aren't needed 6,9 or 12 times yearly....unless of course you have super rich clients who have nothing else to occupy their minds than their windows always being spotless.
On your profile you location isn't filled in...where do you live Mayfair?
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i agree with squeeky if someone asks for my qoute and i am cheaper then i will take on the job and if someone undercuts me then that is ok to, each person works for what they think is necassary groundhog mentioned paying someone £7.50 an hour and their are good window cleaners working for others at that rate so to ask for £50 or £60 an hour i think is a rip of and to say that you do a better job than others because you charge more is just ridiculous there are people charging a lot and doing a crap job the same as people charging cheap and doing a good job.
On the other hand if you are getting those sort of prices then it is no good complaining if you do get undercut because you are leaving yourself wide open for that to happen, if someone undercuts me then it is only going to be by a small amount and the customer probably wont bother changing but when you are undercut the price differance will be worth trying a new window cleaner.
I get £50 or £60 an hour for a small proportion of my work and I haven't ripped anyone off.
Let's take two of those jobs (these are actual examples):-
Job 1. I originally quoted it over two years ago before I started with WFP. I quoted it at £32.00 . I reckoned it would take a little over an hour. A bit of it was tricky as I had to use swivloc applicator and squeegee for a window over the conservatory. After a couple of cleans, I managed to get my time down to between 55mins and one hour. OK so that's close to £33/£34 for an hour on average. Then along came WFP. I invested around £16,000 for a second hand van, van mount, trolley, backpack, poles and all sorts of associated stuff. The debt for that lot is still costing me around £300 a month. After I had got used to using it, I eventually managed to get job 1 down to 32 minutes if I shifted myself but more typically it will take me nearer 40 minutes. So that's between £48 and £60 an hour. Remember, I invested borrowed money to achieve this.
Job 2. I originally quoted it at £58.00. I reckoned it would take a bit over an hour for the actual cleaning and now that the first couple of cleans are out of the way, that guess is about right. However, the job is a few miles out of the way so it takes a while in time and vehicle costs to get there. So I suppose that one is about £55 an hour for the actual cleaning. The people are absolutely delighted because previous window cleaners (non WFP) either kept letting them down, missed some windows, or trod on (and broke) some of their tiles in spite of being told not to go onto the roof. Bear in mind that these windows are mostly Georgian so I probably do them a lot faster than someone using trad methods.
Now I think it's important to realise here that we are talking about WFP hours and trad hours. I can't speak for others but on most jobs I am faster with WFP than I was trad - sometimes a LOT faster. Because I have taken a risk and borrowed 16 grand, I can reduce the time taken on most jobs. There are also parts of my business where I rush to turn over £22 an hour. These will be passed on when the time is right. At the moment - mostly due to WFP - I have gaps in my workload. Therefore I will not be dropping any more work for now.
I do not rip anyone off. My customers are charged the same amount as when I cleaned the trad way (except for some where I hiked it up by £1 this year). The faster work time is used to offset the higher outgoings.
With the Georgian job, I reckon that would be two hours trad. 2 hours at £29 an hour is £58. I take one hour and charge £58. Where's the rip off?
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I hear you Groundhog but: At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.
But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time ::)
I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.
I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.
Simon
You say that you are happy with earning £25.00 per hour, which on it own looks like a good figure to earn.
But you are not earning £25.00 per hour, you say that apart from petrol you only pay for scrims/rubbers from time to time.
What happens if you have a holiday or day off, what if you are sick and can't earn, this comes off your £25.00.
You pay for petrol but what about the insurance-road tax-breakdowns and even replacing the vechicle when its worn out.
You buy shoes and work gear because of you job this also comes off your £25.00.
You might have public insurance, but you will have to pay Nat Insurance and Income Tax.
Every year you have to do your books for the tax man, you can either pay an accountant or spend xxx amount of hours doing them yourself, this also comes out of you £25.00, if you get them wrong and the tax man fines you then this also comes out of your £25.00.
Do you pay for a pension, more from that £25.00.
At the end of the day, its dosen't matter what you charge per hour its what that figure is really worth when you take all of the deductables from it.
You say that £25.00 is a good amount to earn from an unskilled job, don't run yourself down, window cleaning is both dangerous and skilled and you should charge accordingly.
If you ask Mrs smith how much she pays a plumber-electrian-decorator just to turn up then you are charging a pittance for a skilled job.
If you want to earn £25.00 per hour net, then you need to start at this figure and then add on all of the other bits that you will spend to come to a gross figure to charge.
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You just cannot compare plumbing and electrical work to window cleaning. The first two are highly skilled and involve study and recognised qualifications (unless you're a cowboy!) and the third is just cleaning glass!
As for income tax, Ni, shoes etc etc....this comes with any job.
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I like people who think like you simon,i`ve had lots like you work for me for £5 an hour LOL. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Simon I don't really understand why you are being so defensive? As William, myself and other members are actually trying to help you - by suggesting that perhaps your worth a bit more. I don't think of myself as being just a window cleaner, but as being a businessman who is striving to achieve the best profits that I can from my business! :)
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I hear you Groundhog but: At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.
But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time ::)
I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.
I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.
Simon
You say that you are happy with earning £25.00 per hour, which on it own looks like a good figure to earn.
But you are not earning £25.00 per hour, you say that apart from petrol you only pay for scrims/rubbers from time to time.
What happens if you have a holiday or day off, what if you are sick and can't earn, this comes off your £25.00.
You pay for petrol but what about the insurance-road tax-breakdowns and even replacing the vechicle when its worn out.
You buy shoes and work gear because of you job this also comes off your £25.00.
You might have public insurance, but you will have to pay Nat Insurance and Income Tax.
Every year you have to do your books for the tax man, you can either pay an accountant or spend xxx amount of hours doing them yourself, this also comes out of you £25.00, if you get them wrong and the tax man fines you then this also comes out of your £25.00.
Do you pay for a pension, more from that £25.00.
At the end of the day, its dosen't matter what you charge per hour its what that figure is really worth when you take all of the deductables from it.
You say that £25.00 is a good amount to earn from an unskilled job, don't run yourself down, window cleaning is both dangerous and skilled and you should charge accordingly.
If you ask Mrs smith how much she pays a plumber-electrian-decorator just to turn up then you are charging a pittance for a skilled job.
If you want to earn £25.00 per hour net, then you need to start at this figure and then add on all of the other bits that you will spend to come to a gross figure to charge.
I agree with most of what you say William but I wouldn't classify most window cleaning as skilled. There is certainly a knack to it and most people who start it don't have the resilience to sustain it over the long term. If skill does come into it then I would suggest that it's more about cherry pickers, cradles and abseiling. I know that even scaffolding was classed as semi skilled many years ago (though this may have changed). I'm not doing myself down but although I feel that certain aspects of window cleaning could be classed at the high end of semi-skilled, I certainly do not classify myself as a skilled worker. I charge what I do due to recouping my outlay, to cover the extra costs of just BEING self-employed (insurances, holiday, sickness, pension, re-investing and to cover the extra misc bits of downtime for when things go wrong. I do like to end up with a good income once that lot is taken care of. Of course tax and NI take a large chunk of the turnover too.
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It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job :-\
Andy
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Mr Groundhog and Mr NWH, Please believe me when i say I'm not being defensive and I appreciate that you have my best interests at heart. But I know what the market price is where I work and if I try to up my prices to the scale you're suggesting there's plenty of w/c ers around where i work who'll take my biz with lower quotes. Suffice to say my competition are not English!!!!!
I know I'm pricing right because I get turned down more and more these days.
As I say if you guys can charge what you charge then bloody good luck to you....but for me?...the competition is too stiff here.
I earn OK and me Liz (my daughter) and Mrs k don't starve and we pay our bills and have holidays....I work 6ish hours a day, maybe 3 on saturdays when I need to catch up....
....guys, Bless You for your comments but trust me I'm content.
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It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job :-\
Andy
What's the difference?
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Mr Groundhog and Mr NWH, Please believe me when i say I'm not being defensive and I appreciate that you have my best interests at heart. But I know what the market price is where I work and if I try to up my prices to the scale you're suggesting there's plenty of w/c ers around where i work who'll take my biz with lower quotes. Suffice to say my competition are not English!!!!!
I know I'm pricing right because I get turned down more and more these days.
As I say if you guys can charge what you charge then bloody good luck to you....but for me?...the competition is too stiff here.
I earn OK and me Liz (my daughter) and Mrs k don't starve and we pay our bills and have holidays....I work 6ish hours a day, maybe 3 on saturdays when I need to catch up....
....guys, Bless You for your comments but trust me I'm content.
And I'm very glad that you are happy too Simon. I'm surprised to read that you regard that amount as the going rate in your area as you are in SW London. I have to admit that to achieve the rates that I want to earn, I've had to travel a few miles out from where I live. Money making isn't a huge motivator for me either. I am more motivated by the thought of reducing my debts and by being able to have more time off eventually but money for its own sake is a non-starter with me.
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I would like to repeat the fact that not many people can stick window cleaning long enough to make it worthwhile.
They often start cheap and give up. So it should be valued slightly more than just unskilled labour. For example, how long does it take to build a round and how many stick their first winter in which they endure bad weather and little money? Far less than half who start up I would say. So being regular in all seasons is something you should pride yourself on and charge for.
And the £50 and hour arguement? I cannot claim to earn that. But on some jobs I do. On each of them I have normally expected it to take longer to do and then found its a quick job when you actually do it. The customers don't moan, I don't lower the price. So what's to stop me INTENTIONALLY pricing at £50 per hour? Just confidence.
Maybe its a wake up call?
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I hear you Groundhog but: At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.
But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time ::)
I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.
I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.
Simon
You say that you are happy with earning £25.00 per hour, which on it own looks like a good figure to earn.
But you are not earning £25.00 per hour, you say that apart from petrol you only pay for scrims/rubbers from time to time.
What happens if you have a holiday or day off, what if you are sick and can't earn, this comes off your £25.00.
You pay for petrol but what about the insurance-road tax-breakdowns and even replacing the vechicle when its worn out.
You buy shoes and work gear because of you job this also comes off your £25.00.
You might have public insurance, but you will have to pay Nat Insurance and Income Tax.
Every year you have to do your books for the tax man, you can either pay an accountant or spend xxx amount of hours doing them yourself, this also comes out of you £25.00, if you get them wrong and the tax man fines you then this also comes out of your £25.00.
Do you pay for a pension, more from that £25.00.
At the end of the day, its dosen't matter what you charge per hour its what that figure is really worth when you take all of the deductables from it.
You say that £25.00 is a good amount to earn from an unskilled job, don't run yourself down, window cleaning is both dangerous and skilled and you should charge accordingly.
If you ask Mrs smith how much she pays a plumber-electrian-decorator just to turn up then you are charging a pittance for a skilled job.
If you want to earn £25.00 per hour net, then you need to start at this figure and then add on all of the other bits that you will spend to come to a gross figure to charge.
I agree with most of what you say William but I wouldn't classify most window cleaning as skilled. There is certainly a knack to it and most people who start it don't have the resilience to sustain it over the long term. If skill does come into it then I would suggest that it's more about cherry pickers, cradles and abseiling. I know that even scaffolding was classed as semi skilled many years ago (though this may have changed). I'm not doing myself down but although I feel that certain aspects of window cleaning could be classed at the high end of semi-skilled, I certainly do not classify myself as a skilled worker. I charge what I do due to recouping my outlay, to cover the extra costs of just BEING self-employed (insurances, holiday, sickness, pension, re-investing and to cover the extra misc bits of downtime for when things go wrong. I do like to end up with a good income once that lot is taken care of. Of course tax and NI take a large chunk of the turnover too.
Window cleaning is skilled, anyone can climb a ladder or get into a cradle or tie a rope around your waist and dive off the nearest building, but its takes skill on how to do it safely.
Anyone can wash a piece of glass, but it takes a skilled person who can kept on washing panes and panes of glass, and each one is finshed perfectly.
Yes people can say your only a window cleaner, but how many of them can clean a window and leave it streak and spot free, time after time.
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Mr Groundhog and Mr NWH, Please believe me when i say I'm not being defensive and I appreciate that you have my best interests at heart. But I know what the market price is where I work and if I try to up my prices to the scale you're suggesting there's plenty of w/c ers around where i work who'll take my biz with lower quotes. Suffice to say my competition are not English!!!!!
I know I'm pricing right because I get turned down more and more these days.
As I say if you guys can charge what you charge then bloody good luck to you....but for me?...the competition is too stiff here.
I earn OK and me Liz (my daughter) and Mrs k don't starve and we pay our bills and have holidays....I work 6ish hours a day, maybe 3 on saturdays when I need to catch up....
....guys, Bless You for your comments but trust me I'm content.
And I'm very glad that you are happy too Simon. I'm surprised to read that you regard that amount as the going rate in your area as you are in SW London. I have to admit that to achieve the rates that I want to earn, I've had to travel a few miles out from where I live. Money making isn't a huge motivator for me either. I am more motivated by the thought of reducing my debts and by being able to have more time off eventually but money for its own sake is a non-starter with me.
There is little bit of a misconception re SW London. True, property prices are high vis a vis the national average but most of my customers who live in £1m plus houses (and they're not uncommon) have been there for many years and earn ish the national average or are retired and on a state pension. They're asset rich but disposable wealth poor.
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I hear you Groundhog but: At £25ish ph I get all the work I want and have not too much fear of being undercut. Also at £25ph Mrs Smith is happy for me to have me back 6 or 7 times a year...at £50 it'd be 2 if I'm lucky.
But when all's said and done barring petrol £25 is net money...I might replace a scrim/rubber from time to time ::)
I haven't canvassed for 18 months as all of my new work is from Recs.
I never took up w/c ing to make a fortune...just a nice living being my own boss.
Simon
You say that you are happy with earning £25.00 per hour, which on it own looks like a good figure to earn.
But you are not earning £25.00 per hour, you say that apart from petrol you only pay for scrims/rubbers from time to time.
What happens if you have a holiday or day off, what if you are sick and can't earn, this comes off your £25.00.
You pay for petrol but what about the insurance-road tax-breakdowns and even replacing the vechicle when its worn out.
You buy shoes and work gear because of you job this also comes off your £25.00.
You might have public insurance, but you will have to pay Nat Insurance and Income Tax.
Every year you have to do your books for the tax man, you can either pay an accountant or spend xxx amount of hours doing them yourself, this also comes out of you £25.00, if you get them wrong and the tax man fines you then this also comes out of your £25.00.
Do you pay for a pension, more from that £25.00.
At the end of the day, its dosen't matter what you charge per hour its what that figure is really worth when you take all of the deductables from it.
You say that £25.00 is a good amount to earn from an unskilled job, don't run yourself down, window cleaning is both dangerous and skilled and you should charge accordingly.
If you ask Mrs smith how much she pays a plumber-electrian-decorator just to turn up then you are charging a pittance for a skilled job.
If you want to earn £25.00 per hour net, then you need to start at this figure and then add on all of the other bits that you will spend to come to a gross figure to charge.
I agree with most of what you say William but I wouldn't classify most window cleaning as skilled. There is certainly a knack to it and most people who start it don't have the resilience to sustain it over the long term. If skill does come into it then I would suggest that it's more about cherry pickers, cradles and abseiling. I know that even scaffolding was classed as semi skilled many years ago (though this may have changed). I'm not doing myself down but although I feel that certain aspects of window cleaning could be classed at the high end of semi-skilled, I certainly do not classify myself as a skilled worker. I charge what I do due to recouping my outlay, to cover the extra costs of just BEING self-employed (insurances, holiday, sickness, pension, re-investing and to cover the extra misc bits of downtime for when things go wrong. I do like to end up with a good income once that lot is taken care of. Of course tax and NI take a large chunk of the turnover too.
Window cleaning is skilled, anyone can climb a ladder or get into a cradle or tie a rope around your waist and dive off the nearest building, but its takes skill on how to do it safely.
Anyone can wash a piece of glass, but it takes a skilled person who can kept on washing panes and panes of glass, and each one is finshed perfectly.
Yes people can say your only a window cleaner, but how many of them can clean a window and leave it streak and spot free, time after time.
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Oh Come on!...Sure there's a bit of a knack to it but my mum cleans her own windows and they look pretty ok to me.
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It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job
Andy
What's the difference?
Urm - Quite a lot actually!
Andy
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It looks like some of us view Window Cleaning as our business... And others just view it as a job
Andy
What's the difference?
Urm - Quite a lot actually!
Andy
Well? So what is the difference?
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Hello Paul,du wanna job LOL. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Oh and just to add to that,you pay peanuts you get monkeys.I only realised this because everytime we had are lunch all they had in there lunch boxes were bananas LOL. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I've picked up a couple in a village near me because someone was pricing too high.
They're good jobs too.
The last window cleaner doesn't know he's dumped yet, but he was charging so much they asked me for a quote.
He wanted £30-odd for what I asked £20.
I see it as 20-25 mins work, so I've got a really good price. :)
It's going to lead to others too.
Don't know if it's a cleaner I know, but I don't feel any guilt when they were ripping people off. ;)
You can't price too high, people will look elsewhere.
£20 is a good price for 20 - 25 minutes work. Anywhere, anyplace. Does this include your travelling time?
But what would you do if you pick up 40 or 50 new jobs in the countryside at £10 cheaper than the previous cleaner?
I reckon you would come to the conclusion after half a dozen jobs that you are too cheap for the area.
I stopped working in town and do villages exclusively because the prices are basically half in town to what they are in the country.
I didn't set these prices, they were already in place long before i started wc.
I only learnt because like you, i was much cheaper than the previous wc's they had. I never found this out until much later, after i had developed a relationship with them.
I charge alot more now, though still not as much as some and i still pick up most jobs i quote.
I believe you are charging a fair rate in your eyes, but these rates are probably based alot on what you could charge in town, rather than the countryside.
It's all about location.
And simon knight, i think you are a trad cleaner, are you? If so, then your prices are good. If you are wfp though, i would expect to be earning almost double that in London.
There are much poorer areas where wc are earning better money per hour than £25.
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What a great thread this has developed into. ;D
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Mark, I think you've clarified the situation.
Yes I am trad. Were I wfp then a job that takes me 1hr and I charge £25 would become 1/2 hr...still£25...onto the next 1/2hr job...again £25 ..thus 1hrs work = £50....
...I think this is where the confusion lay.
By the way what happened to Pauls posting?
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You MUST take into account that if you go to work tomorrow and earn for example £50 and then get rained off on tuesday that £50 then becomes £25 and so on,all these factors have to be taken into account without holidays,sick days,let down by equipment,van problems all these things happen and must be thought about at the quote stage on all jobs.If you want to earn £25 an hour simon then price your jobs so your getting more like £40 an hour that way your more likley to end up with your £25.
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You MUST take into account that if you go to work tomorrow and earn for example £50 and then get rained off on tuesday that £50 then becomes £25 and so on,all these factors have to be taken into account without holidays,sick days,let down by equipment,van problems all these things happen and must be thought about at the quote stage on all jobs.If you want to earn £25 an hour simon then price your jobs so your getting more like £40 an hour that way your more likley to end up with your £25.
I can see where you're coming from but being rained off, car breaking down etc isn't the customers concern. All my customers are interested in is me coming round on a dry day, cleaning their windows to a good standard and charging realistic money. I can't say: I'm going to charge you £40 because it might rain tomorrow and I won't be able to work. All jobs have inherent problems. With window cleaning it's inclement weather and vans or cars breaking down....equipment isn't an issue with trad obviously.
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Well that`s exactly what i say if a price would ever be questioned,what do you think these other companys do when they price up jobs,they have to take into account the running costs of there vehicles and general running costs.Just saying what you want an hour without taking these things into account is very bad business and if you had a lot of overheads with this way of thinking you would go bankrupt in no time at all,no offense simon but wake up and smell the coffee.
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I can see where you're coming from but being rained off, car breaking down etc isn't the customers concern. All my customers are interested in is me coming round on a dry day, cleaning their windows to a good standard and charging realistic money. I can't say: I'm going to charge you £40 because it might rain tomorrow and I won't be able to work. All jobs have inherent problems. With window cleaning it's inclement weather and vans or cars breaking down....equipment isn't an issue with trad obviously.
This is exactly the difference between viewing window cleaning as a business or a job.
You view it as a job... Which is fair enough if you want to view it that way. But, in my opinion to get the best out of it you have to view it as a business!
Andy
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Sorry Andy but that's not an answer! Because you're asking me to read something into my reply to NWH that will answer my original question which was:
What's the difference between a job and a business?
You made the comment in the first place so I'd be obliged if you'd explain!
Thanks
Simon
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OK, this is just one example:
I can see where you're coming from but being rained off, car breaking down etc isn't the customers concern.
If you were running a serious business - Then yes the car/van breaking down, being rained off etc... would in an indirect way be the customers concern - And that's why I factor these things into my business and pricing.
There is no simple answer to what the difference is between a business and a job... Just little things like the example above.
Andy
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OK, so you call it a business and i call it a job...so what? We're both in to make a living...let's leave at that.
I'm logging-off and having supper....Bon Soir.
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If your happy Simon on £25.00 an hour fair dinkum.
Contentment is a figure that you will never ever be able to put a price on. Their are Billioners out there who are not content with their lot in life. But their are millions of poor people who are equally discontent.
I have a Successful round that pays me more then £25.00 an hour. Their are more cheapo w/cleaners in my area then Good looking girls. Just because they are cheap does not mean I have to be cheap.
I am selling £200.00 of my worst work next week to a w/c thats just starting up. It will pay him £25.00 an hour when he masters wfp easy. The reson I am selling that work is I have too much work.
Since going wfp 20 months ago my work as increased by 40%. If squeaks and the other Harbingers of doom should be believed my round should be decreasing in size by a monumental amount.
How can you explain Where I am in areas against w/c that are cheaper then me by more then 50% that I am taking work of them. In every area I work I do the most work out of any w/cleaner their. Its not a case of ripping someone off. Customers are canny enough to know what other w/c are charging.
Its down to the service you provide, the job you do and the one last and equally important reason, YOU. Have you got the people skills to connect on a personall level with your customers. My freinds say thats where my round Succeeds. I can relate to all my customers and I know how to treat them well.
So its not just a case of getting a cheaper w/cleaner its a case of do they want to lose you.
Nel
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Great post Neil
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Agree 100% Neil,the relationship with customers is so important,if they like you and most of all trust you they will always pay your price.
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£25 per hour £50per hour the only real price to charge is what you value your time at some shiners prefer lots of small jobs some prefer a few big jobs i say im glad with the jobs ive got and as long as your happy with wot you get then that cool
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i agree with all of you the reason you start this job is freedom ok but after twenty years like me its a bind a millstone round your neck you be come the hamster on a wheel it goes round so fast you cant get off.....
pricing i went for the low price stack em high route and it nearly killed me
i worked faster and longer and still was so broke i could no even afford shoes for the little one even after a seven day week...........
i read the forum learnt and learnt from some of you guys and now turning the round buissnes around its slow hard and painfull.
if you had been around ten years ago i would have been much better off mentaly and bodily and with more sprit.
go for the cash but dont sell your pricipals i have met money mad people they are not nice to know i have also met nice people who will never do well as they are tooo nice soultion try somewhere in the middle there is something for all of us.
dont sell your selfs too cheap and dont sell out
i
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Mark, I think you've clarified the situation.
Yes I am trad. Were I wfp then a job that takes me 1hr and I charge £25 would become 1/2 hr...still£25...onto the next 1/2hr job...again £25 ..thus 1hrs work = £50....
...I think this is where the confusion lay.
By the way what happened to Pauls posting?
Thanks for clarifying that. It seems unbelievable to me now but I thought £15 - £20 an hour was pretty good barely three years ago. I worked in isolation for many years without really discussing rates with other W/Cers. Starting to communicate more, using this forum (and others), and switching to WFP have started to open my eyes to what can be achieved.
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Simon
When was the last time you increased your prices? and how often do you do it?
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I doubt he will be that bothered as there are plenty more customers out there prepared to pay a good price for a quality job!
You just carry on building your low priced round and undercutting other window cleaners and you will end up with a round full of crap, and customers who will drop you the first time a cheaper window cleaner knocks on their door!! ;)
Low priced round?
£20 for 20-25 mins work?
Will you please tell me how that is low priced.
I think most people will agree that's fairly high.
If you're going to argue and put people down, at least make some sense. ::)
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How can I have undercut if they ask me for a quote, then afterwards tell me I'm £10 cheaper?
Not my problem.
If he didn't overprice they wouldn't have asked me.
Squeaky,
Perhaps he wasn't overpricing? Perhaps you are underpricing?
Perhaps it took him an hour to do each house to a high standard, whilst you'll take 20 mins and do it to not as high a standard?
Andy
No, she was unhappy with his work.
That's why she wanted someone else, but she felt it was a ridiculous price too.
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OK,
i want into the debate which is going on, there are many views and sides,
But there is one thing you cannot deny, and that is money, and who has it.
At the moment, things are ok...but sooner or later interest rates will rise again to curb people buying houses, because at the moment people don't have enough money, and also there are not enough houses,
its fine earning from 15-100 p/h that's only ok when the market can sustain it, remember back to 1935 i think when the markets crashed, who was it who gained? the rich, and who lost out? the poor, you could buy a car for the same amount as a loaf of bread, and the world has never really recovered from it.
If you have a choice or, Cigarettes alcohol, Drugs, and other such amenities, over having clean windows, what do you think will go?
remember the national avergae wage, before tax is 33,000 and year, thats 150 a day, anything over that your above average, i admit i am over average, i aim for 30p/h over the day from 8-4 including my lunch but thats only while people still have money in their pockets, once thats gone, so will we, and out exorbitant prices, we all have jobs we love, but don't forget the jobs we want to bin, have serverd us well, and i would put money on they are the ones who will keep you with a roof over your head when things get tight.
So the moral, have customers who are old and own their houses, and the rich, millionaire's who have inherited it.
Hope that makes sense
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remember the national avergae wage, before tax is 33,000 and year
Hope that makes sense
Except for that bit.
The national average is £21,000.
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Low priced round?
£20 for 20-25 mins work?
Will you please tell me how that is low priced.
I think most people will agree that's fairly high.
I agree your prices are far too high! you had better drop them before you get undercut!!!! ;D
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remember the national avergae wage, before tax is 33,000 and year
Hope that makes sense
Except for that bit.
The national average is £21,000.
If Squeaks is right on the national average being 21k, then as a self employed window cleaner, if you actually want to earn that much money then you are going to have to turn over at least 26k per year to achieve it.
Even if you are a trad window cleaner with lower expenses than a WFP one, you still need to achieve those kind of figures.
don't kid yourself that it is only pennies to run your business, it isn't.
As has already been mentioned, you have to take into account the fact that your vehicle HAS TO BE CONSIDERED A BUSINESS EXPENSE!
It matters absolutely not one jot that if you were employed by someone in some other job that you would still have a vehicle, in another job, a vehicle isn't a necessity, without one you would not be a window cleaner.
If your tax bill at end of year is only a few hundred quid then you are earning a pittance.
50 quid an hour sounds high doesn't it?...well, to most of us it does, and were you in a salaried job it most certainly would be, we are talking close on 90k per year salaried.
But if you are talking about averaging £50 per hour worked it is a very different thing indeed, way different.
Why even Squeaks himself is averaging not far of that per hour worked, close to a pound a minute for that job he has mentioned in this thread.
And he is being castigated for going in too cheap!!!!
I'll have to add more to this later...I agree that it is a good and well debated thread though!
Ian