Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Davew on July 28, 2007, 04:39:57 pm
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I've been on this forum for several months now and picked up ninety percent of my knowledge and very grateful I am too. However I've reached a stage where it is very difficult to expand, next to impossible to pick up commercial because it's all covered. I have to compete with the dole scroungers, the established cleaners, the weather, and crappy customers. One things for sure - it ain't easy! Anyone starting out who gets tempted with the flash van and new system with a wonderful lease BEWARE. (I haven't) I was shown a system for well over twenty thousand pounds with a print off of the incredible earnings you could make with it. What a load of ****ocks. Same goes for anyone concidering a franchise.
Thats it I feel better now. :)
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dave
right on man
i think you got the right view
it aint easy all commercial goes lightning fast because its highest earner
you want commercial--pay x3 x4 x5 monthly turnover its modern life
and if i were a rumanian and desperate--id have a go at wc
undercut what the hell?
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another thing
thers some v successfull wc out there but its taken them years and years to get there real success (generally, i think)
dont come easily +quickly
exept if you pay x4 for a really well priced round
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And if the round is that good - why sell it?
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It's my grumpy day today. I've had to work because I lost two days in the week. I've also had to do four houses in a row that were disgusting - dog poo everywhere , I've had to dissinfect my kit and hands everytime but I can't afford to bin them. Did another one that had discarded surgical gloves chucked around the back garden amongst all the other junk. People are disgusting sometimes! Then there are the BMW/Mercedes owners who haven't got two pennies to rub together and can't afford a cleaner........................ and to top it all it's chucking it down again! :(
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I thought it was a good thought provoking post, not grumpy at all. We had a rash of people claiming £200 days for five hours between school collections but i think a lot of this was only if things fell right etc and they had the work.
The expansion issue is a problem, once you have leafleted everyone in your area, then what?
As you say unless you've got a sign writted van that looks the business and people see you buzzing about the area in a professional manner continually raising your profile and an awareness of both youself and what you do in your chosen area then you are stuffed. ;D ;D
I wanted to ask about Saturday working, I want to do this, do the customers mind?
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Were in the same boat Dave....I too have loads of 'spare time' in fact over the next two weeks I have 54quid of work and have 46% 'spare' capacity of work time.
Now I have just gone through my workload for the next 8weeks (I am mostly 8 weekly) and have looked at each day and area and have created a 'want' list.
So I have 2500 leaflets sat next to me which are going out in the area's/streets that I want work....and we'll see what happens...
But yes...starting is easy until you realise that the stories of 'I got 90 customers each month all paying 50quid for their 3 bed semi every 36 hours' is far from the truth....
I would imagine when you have been going for a number of years and just need to fill in the gaps during the year it is 'easy' but creating a round without 'help' is far from easy...infact I sometimes get down about it all but with that said...I too will be very busy and looking back and saying 'I am so glad I am a window cleaner' ;D ;D until then...its heads down and push push push
Dave
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Davew, If you are running out of ideas on getting new customers, then why not try to offer more services to your existing customers , eg fascia cleaning, gutters, painting , anything that you can do to a professional quality
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My vans signwritten, people tell me what a wonderful job I'm doing and say they have seen my van everywhere. I think I have only picked up one job through the van. One job with a local church directory. Maybe the wettest May and June since records began dosen't help and the interest rate going up. Windowcleaning is hardly a necessity after all.
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Many posters on here struggle with round capacity after 10, 15, 20 years.
Think about brand awareness. They get the leaflet, then they say, oh yes i've seen him about, but for that to happen effectively you need the sign written van. £20,000 or not, that's how it works.
Forget the one job you can directly attribute to the van, I bet nearly everyone you speak to says they've seen you about. You have instant credibility and are trusted.
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youve had only 2 rainy days? lucky you!
what we need is to be able express f words c words annd a few b ones too cant do it
i got a fairly small round 10 houses up for sale
your complaints--i can match and beat
wc is a tough hard life but pays x2 x3 x4 more than the general working population
i honestly think you should go down the pub right now and down at least 10 pints
mon morning youll be bright as rain raring to go
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Pat, good idea but I do that. Dave in Holland I always read your posts because your ahead of me and admire your persistance (I haven't even leafletted yet) Most would have cracked by now keep it up! :)
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Saturday mornings - I have a few that can only be done at the weekends due to access problems - they work all week and I have to go through the house or garage to get to the back I don't mind too much but don't want it week in week out.
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Dave.....persistance (read - bull headed)...now whilst were talking about different idea's...has anyone created a referal scheme....now I am thinking about this but obviously we need to be careful of the wording to avoid giving away too much....does nayone have any past experiance with this type of 'scheme' and and advice...?
Dave.
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Dave, your post is about right
i spoke to some1 a few weeks ago who had a demo from a " system maker" and they told him he could be earning 500 quid a day without trying, this system would bring work in by the bucet load, the local council would phone him up and tell him to name his price to do the work
he knew me and knew i was allready WFP system user, he phoned me and after i stopped laughing we met at the local tesco's coffee shop abd had a chat
end result was he is building a van system and having his van "wrapped " and still saving ALOT of money, 22 K he was qouted fro van and system ::)
i guess posts like this help others see the hype and the real world
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Anyway you've shot yourself in the foot a bit Dave.
Haven't been going long, never leafleted, but having to work Saturdays to keep up.
Poor you.
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??? I havn't leafleted because looking at other posts it didn't look a very efficient way of gaining customers, so have stuck with canvassing. I had to work today as my earnings for the week would be worse than they are. I couldn't work for two aweful days (didn't think the customers would accept it). I'm learning.
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???
Your original point was what a hard game it is and how a false impression is painted of how easy it is to make a fortune.
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Thats right.
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Rain Water Eco WFP Systems said -
The expansion issue is a problem, once you have leafleted everyone in your area, then what?
You leaflet them all again.
A lot of people will not respond to leaflets the first time you put them out but if you keep re- leafletting the same area's every month you will get a better responce.
Most people it takes 2 or 3 leaflets before they phone some it takes more.
keep putting them leaflets out and you will soon have a full workload.
Paul
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on one of my area's I have leaflet the neighbourhood 6 times in the last 50 weeks.... ;D ;D I still seem to pick up work...but slowly ;)
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I was joking Dave.Cheer up it's not a crime to be succesfull,
I've been wondering about this Paul. It's very important for me to get work in the areas I work. I would like to be the main or dominant window cleaner, but I am far from that at the moment.
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has anyone created a referal scheme....now I am thinking about this but obviously we need to be careful of the wording to avoid giving away too much....does nayone have any past experiance with this type of 'scheme' and and advice...?
Dave.
i would also be interested in how successful people have been with referrals.
I'm a bit dubious because when i pick up work through recommendations, the people who have referred me are just happy that they can provide their friend/colleague/ relative a window cleaner.
I suspect people don't try to refer us unless they already know someone who is wanting a wc anyway.
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has anyone created a referal scheme....now I am thinking about this but obviously we need to be careful of the wording to avoid giving away too much....does nayone have any past experiance with this type of 'scheme' and and advice...?
Dave.
i would also be interested in how successful people have been with referrals.
I'm a bit dubious because when i pick up work through recommendations, the people who have referred me are just happy that they can provide their friend/colleague/ relative a window cleaner.
I suspect people don't try to refer us unless they already know someone who is wanting a wc anyway.
just add on your " your windows have been cleaned today " slip
If your happy with my work, please recommend me to others
many dont think we need the work
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Thats a good idea. Every little bit counts and thats a free advert really.
I would endorse the idea of re-leafletting an area that you have already done. It does work there is no doubt about it. We get the same leaflet for carpet cleaning through our door every few months. They wouldn't do that if it wasn't worth thier while.
I did a bit of leafletting last week and immediatly picked up several new customers because a previous window cleaner has packed up. Thats just luck, other times you get nothing. My son and I leafletted a long road near us and several roads off it a few months back (about 450 leaflets) and never got a single reply. But thats how it goes, think of it as a constant process rather than a one off campaign.
Window Cleaning franchises, like all franchises, paint a very rosey picture because they want to attract people who know no better. They reel them in like a fish on a line.
The people who take up these franchises are almost certain to fail. If they had the personal qualities to succeed they wouldn't be going to look at franchises like this in the first place. Big franchises like McDonalds and Subway do well but some of the many small ones are almost laughable.
I went to a franchise show a few years ago at Wembley Conference Centre just out of interest. Its only a few miles from where I live and I got free tickets because I work on the rank there sometimes as a taxi driver.
Total rubbish most of them, an absolute take on yet there were people there showing serious interest in schemes that were little more than scams. Like lambs to the slaughter.
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Franchising does work, and technicaly you too have a franchise Vince, as do we all.
How many amongst us start ups or established write a business plan?
A marketing plan would include some disscused above.
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Yes but I didn't pay anyone a five figure sum to become a window cleaner and I'm not giving them 20% of my turnover for the rest of my life because I once attended a training course and have thier headed notepaper.
A few of us on here could get togeather and run a training course for would be window cleaners and at the end of the day give out a factsheet with a list of recommended suppliers. Thats virtually all the franchise outfits do except its all packaged up to look like a real deal.
When you franchise you franchise the name, nothing else, if the name is well known its worth paying for. If its not you buy nothing. Franchises are not "schemes" or "plans" to help you start up. Help and guidance should come as part of the deal not be all you get.
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The people who take up these franchises are almost certain to fail. If they had the personal qualities to succeed they wouldn't be going to look at franchises like this in the first place. Big franchises like McDonalds and Subway do well but some of the many small ones are almost laughable.
Thats the problem with the general population and the word "franchise". They seem to think it has something to do with being part of a bigger business and some of the work done for you. In reality you are part of a small business and working for it.
The word franchise in investment circles means something completely different. We use the word to describe something that makes company different from everyone else, the thing that gives it the edge, the part that makes it difficult for someone to replicate and as a result improves the profit margins as it can usually charge a premium for the fact it has this edge. PC World would probably be a good example, big outlets selling computers, TV advertising and online prices. There are lots of shops selling computers but they are the only one doing it this way and it would be hard for someone to catch up, so we call that its "franchise". Dell on the other hand do not sell in shops and you have to order online. That is easy to replicate really so you could not call it franchise, yes it would require a lot of advertising but it could be done quite easily.
Anyone who thinks WFP is a franchise is an idiot. You get no premium from linking yourself to a name that the public have no connection with. Window cleaning has no franchise in the true sense (there in an exception but I will come to this at the end) and anyone who tries to convince you that a company has something that can not be replicated is probably lying. When considering buying into a franchise your only questions should be "is it profitable" and "can I replicate it without giving these people my money".
One window cleaning franchise offers such delights as... No Cash Flow Problems? No Advertising? No Competition? No Stress? No Bad Debts?
LOL!!! But ignoring that, is it profitable and can I replicate it without giving these people my money :)
Now for the exceptions, insurance and the feds. The federations do give you a certain element of franchise, it gives you something that the competition may not have (though they can get it so it isn't a true franchise). Likewise insurance will, in some cases, be needed to get the job.
Everyone should steer clear of franchises that are easy to replicate, but at the same time try to create a franchise (in investment terms, something that makes them different). References, Feds and good Insurance would do a much better job than BIG-NO-NAME wrapped on the side of a van.
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Good one karl, nothing like simplifying the issue!
I window clean in my area (as do others) and to that degree I have the franchise.(self appointed or not).
What I mean't about business plans was people questioning what they do and looking for ways to improve, as you are doing Vince by accepting some info and chipping in a little bit of you own.
What I find as a member of this site is that some people are very smart in some areas but blind in others. More so with those that are knowledgable technicaly but weak at business.
The bits on your course I would be interested in would be.
Not leaving spots on windows
dealing with complaints
Not pushing people to longer freqeuncys
Others would need other bits (like marketing). One of the problems is once people have made their mind up that they have the best and only approach they are very difficult to shift.
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OK Rain Water, lets work on this...
It's very important for me to get work in the areas I work. I would like to be the main or dominant window cleaner, but I am far from that at the moment.
Understand at the moment you have no franchise, if you did then I would not be able to do the same job as you do for less money and still make a profit. Basically you would have something that stopped me taking your customers from you if I went in at a cheaper rate.
Now, you have to create a franchise for yourself. If you want to be the dominant window cleaner then you have to advertise more, provide more references, join the feds and boast about how big your insurance is. Basically trying to create a business that is harder to replicate. If you can find any angle that makes you different from the competition (time keeping? online payments? yellow pages? criminal records check?) then push it for all it is worth. But understand that all of that is useless on its own unless you push it, ram it down peoples throats and basically advertise yourself as much as possible. Advertising itself works on a sort of multiplier, you advertise and advertise some more and some more. It is better to spend little and often on advertising than it is to spend lots on a one off campaign. Canvass regular, leaflet regular (making sure you have all the "edge" stuff on it) and make sure that you are constantly on peoples minds when it comes to window cleaning in the areas you want.
out-dominate the dominator.
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Thats basicaly it yes. That's what i do, although i'm a bit insidious and start slow.
We disagree on the word franchise and it's meaning. Some of what you saY i call low barrier to entry.
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What you say is very true Karl but it doesn't address the basic misconception that franchises are peddling.
We are all individuals and we all have strengths and weaknesses. By and large you can't change that.You can work on the weaknesses but you will never make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
No amount of training is going to make me an olympic runner or sing like Pavorotti.
To be able to start the sort of business that these franchises are suggesting its possible to run is just out of the question for a person with no experience.They seem to be suggesting that you don't have to get your own hands wet you are just the manager and your crew of blokes do all the work. Ha!
You crew of blokes will be running riot, doing jobs on the side for cash, skipping off to go to the cafe or the betting shop, going home early etc etc.
To run a crew of blokes you have got to be better than them and one jump ahead all the time. Handing over a bundle of money and having flash headed notepaper won't turn you into that person.
Its not about better ways to advert or get you image across. We could all benefit from that I'm sure. There is a definite need there that could be served by training courses. The carpet cleaning industry runs such courses for about £100 a day, why don't we?
But that is still a whole quantum leap away from what these franchise companies would have you believe is possible if you go with them.
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Well I've found that the single best form of advertising is to get your van smartly signed, it's brought in no end of work for me, ok, I'm an established window cleaner of over 23 years, but at one point I'd run my business down to the point where I only had about two and a half days worth of work per week.
Along came WFP into my eager hands and I'd re-discovered me enthusiasm for the job, suddenly I needed an awful lot more work.
It slowly trickled in, I didn't bother canvassing in any shape or form, I merely followed up on people asking for quotes...wasn't bothered if I had to drive a few miles between accounts...
got the van and got it signed (£250) The rate at which work came in - and is still coming in- really increased, so much so I'm now full to the gills to be honest.
I get people come up to me in the van while I'm sat in Tesco's car park, I've had one person follow me home to ask for my services, the other day I had a phone call from a woman cos my van was parked outside her flat while i toddled off to do some shopping in the town.
Smart signing makes you appear professional, as does a uniform with your logo and so on embroidered on.
It makes you visible, it helps you to stand out from the crowd.
It works.
Window cleaning isn't a get rich quick job, it takes time to build up your round, years in fact, and it takes effort....
Leafleting, knocking doors, yellow pages, local pages, parish magazines, anywhere in fact you can get your name is good.
Depending on the depth of your pocket of course!
Loads may start up in window cleaning because of the potential lure of earning good money, but as many find out, you can't wave a magic wand and hey presto! Go out and earn £200 a day....
Ian
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Davew,
One of the best ways to build new custom is to get a job in a local village that is right on the main street, perhaps a house next to the Post Office or local shop. If people see you doing this job on a regular basis they will ask you to do theirs. Perhaps choose a suitable house and offer them a very cheap deal (free or £1 and explain why you are doing it )for a once a week clean, make sure you do it when every one is in the village, perhaps about 10.00 in the morning.
We have been running a WC business in our area for 26 years and we have a handful of shops and cottages in the middle of a prosperous sea-side village. During the season we have nearly one new client a week come up to us and ask if we could fit them in. One lady said that she had seen us doing the estate agents for the last 5 years and had been meaning to ask us all that time!
Remember the best work comes to you not the other way around.
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Another thing to remember dave, is that, depending on the kind of areas that you work in, a new "flashy" sign written van with "fancy" wfp system in the back could actualy work against you. Never underestimate the mentality of many people who would dread the thought that their window cleaner earns more than them & would rather give their money to the cheaper, poorer-looking w/c. It's the social status thing, i have nearly all great customers, many of them are like friends, BUT, i would never in a million years let them know my earnings :o & how much free time i get.
For this reason i'm more than happy to let them think i'm working 40 hours a week to make ends meet, ( & even encourage this thought sometimes ;D).
The BMW owners without 2 pennies to rub together are the worst for this kind of thinking. ( ten-bob millionaires)
tony
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All good tips thanks guys I'll take them on board. Good point there too Tony, when you hear people are timing their cleaner it's pretty obvious what they think. I've also had a couple of people comment on my van, not realising the money to pay for it never came from windowcleaning. One thing this trade does is open your eyes to all walks of life and makes you realise how materialistic and shallow some people are like the ones who have asked me to clean then by the time the third clean comes round they have no money and can't afford it any longer - usually the man of the house with the exec. car on the drive. It also introduces you to the minority of decent people (although not many).
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Dave, I built my round up very quickly, In fact 6 months after I started I had to take a guy on. I soon found that this wasn't working for me, I sold a big chunk of work off, and went back on my own.
I started off looking for new build estates, I didn't care if I had to travel 20 miles to one. That really paid off for me. If they have a show house offer to do it for free, providing they agree to inform you when new people are moving in.
I did most of my canvassing on Saturday and Sundays. If people haven't got a cleaner, it's a job they have to do themselves on a weekend, and it's not a job most people like doing. If you give them a knock on a Saturday morning, odds on you'll get the job.
You have to canvass at a time when most people are at home, that's a simple but true fact.
If asked to quote I would give them a price, and tell them that the first clean was on me. {new estates only} This really got me loads of work.
If you go for new estates be careful when pricing. The houses are dead easy to do when you have totally unrestricted access, they can take a lot longer when they start erecting big fences and gates.
Canvassing gives much better results than leafleting, It give you a chance to sell yourself. Stick at it mate, you'll get there. Dai
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Another point dave is that in this game we all have ups & downs, sounds like you're on a bit of a down at the mo' but rest assured it will pick up mate. It's just a case of taking the rough with the smooth. I'm on an up at the mo' with good quality work rolling in steadily but then again up till recently didn't have much new stuff coming in at all.
As for creating new work, what has worked best for me is good, well thought out & presented leaflets, but to add to that, it can sometimes take months for some response from them. They'll call when THEY are ready.
A tip for you which has worked great for me in the past & have had loads of possitive comments on from customers is to write this at the very bottom of your leaflet.-
Please note:-
This is an honest approach for new business & in no way an attempt to take work from any other window cleaner. I am not in the business of under-cutting any other window cleaner.
Thank You
This statement speaks volumes about your integrity & lets them know that you are genuine & honest. It also acts as a deffence should any other window cleaner accuse you of poaching.
tony
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Another thing to remember dave, is that, depending on the kind of areas that you work in, a new "flashy" sign written van with "fancy" wfp system in the back could actualy work against you. Never underestimate the mentality of many people who would dread the thought that their window cleaner earns more than them & would rather give their money to the cheaper, poorer-looking w/c. It's the social status thing, i have nearly all great customers, many of them are like friends, BUT, i would never in a million years let them know my earnings :o & how much free time i get.
For this reason i'm more than happy to let them think i'm working 40 hours a week to make ends meet, ( & even encourage this thought sometimes ;D).
The BMW owners without 2 pennies to rub together are the worst for this kind of thinking. ( ten-bob millionaires)
tony
thats a valid point
i picked up 2 jobs near my " area", the reason they stopped the current WC'er, he had a new van and a system that he was bragging cost him 14 K
i dont get it to be honest, people still like to think of the WC'er as a working class struggling to make ends meet
on the flip side, when i told people i had been to orlando in fed, i had a few say " if you can afford that holiday, we might not need you anymore "
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Alex, twenty six years ago what on earth made you pick window cleaning as a profession? It can't have been through choice.
Some good points matt. I like to brag about my van because I am very proud of it. It has just had it's first MOT and it's immaculate 16,000 miles. Scudo.
The sign writing on it is brilliant and achieves impact. But it is not flashy in any way, it is workmanlike.
(it's also brilliant inside)
To me that kind of bragging is harmless, and hopefully people can see that I'm proud of what I do etc.
I haven't got an ionics system, but if i did, my word the whole world would know about it.
You have mentioned your hols and again if that is bragging it's harmless. The one that impressed me that you managed to slip in the other day when talking about future plans was that you might be do another degree.
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HI Rainwater,
When I left school I was looking for a job that paid well, had low hassle and was flexible on hours allowing me time for other pursuits. My Dad ran a successful window cleaning business and had done so for a few years, (he used to be in the city in banking but gave it up when the ulcers appeared), I joined as a junior member of the team and despite several forays into other business's I always carried on with window cleaning.
Now many years down the line I wouldn't want to do anything else, apart from sipping a long drink beside a pool in Menorca!!
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You have mentioned your hols and again if that is bragging it's harmless. The one that impressed me that you managed to slip in the other day when talking about future plans was that you might be do another degree.
yes, another ?? ?? iv mentioned my building background and my degree in building studies in the past, why, i added "another" was i didnt want people who remmber everything i write to say " your a liar, you said last oct that you had a degree", and it does happen
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Its true what you say about a quality van being a turnoff. If I saw one of those franchise vans working in one of "my" streets I would be round that house like a shot as soon as they were gone.
I have never and would never nick a job off another shiner but those franchise outfits overcharge and are fair game.
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You realise that concept 02 site sponsors may be some of what you are talking about. They are a very good set up.
I wanted you to continue your idea vince of us concocting a course between us.(well maybe not me, but I could help with the editing or the presentation or something).
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Don't think Concept 20 is a franchise. Cracking looking set up though. Probably better for the commercial work where image may be more important?
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Rain Water, I was pointing out that the carpet cleaning industry has a whole range of courses that you can go on. These courses include practical stuff as well as marketing strategies etc.
I wonder why the same has not happened with window cleaning. The existence of suitable courses would draw some of the interest away from the franchise operators who in my opinion are just ripping off gullable people by presenting a bit of training, some headed notepaper and a van system as a franchise.
I have no desire to get involved myself. I ran training courses for many years when I worked for Kodak and they are hard work. But some of the people who are known experts in their chosen fields would have a lot to offer. The seminars at windex last year showed promise I thought.
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Let's not argue about how widely you can define franchise. Let's just say anything that is well packaged and involves a simple stick to strategy- like having the best equipment and operational marketing methods- concept o2, or Ionics for example?
As for new vans putting people off if there were two Taxi's on your rank, a brand new black cab, or a rusty old banger most people would go with the nice one and it wouldn't occur to say this taxi drivers making too much money.(the other taxi drivers would be the only ones thinking that)
Funny you mention Kodak, they lost their business because they didn't guess that digital photography would take off and take over so completly.
Carpet people do all that switch and bait stuff. We don't need to trick people.