Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Davew on July 13, 2007, 05:27:46 am

Title: Why?
Post by: Davew on July 13, 2007, 05:27:46 am
I know this will start more trouble but having been on this forum for a few months and listening to claims of incredible wages, why is it that every cleaner in my area wether trad or wfp are working from cars worth about three hundred pounds? Even the established cleaners are running around in beat up escort vans. Is it an image thing? I've gone to the trouble of investing about ten times the money or more with a signwritten van, wfp system etc and am hardly snowed under with work. If you look successful does it put customers off? Admittedly I've invested to make my job easier for myself but when the guy with a dirty bucket and a chamoix leather is making the same wage have I wasted my money?
Another grumble - why is it that people pay for a cleaner but arn't bothered with their frames being absolutely disgustingly filthy? Beats me!
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 07:01:01 am
I have areas where I park my van and walk around the houses (trad)...no-one sees the van.
A customer doesn`t care hat you drive...your advertising will not state what you drive.
The idea of a low cost, drive until wrecked, van and then get another cheap 2 years or so out of the next one is very common amongst many trades.

Good business sense to me...low overheads make the profits go further.

Regarding frames, people don`t see out of frames...if they are filthy, I`ll offer a frame clean at extra cost and give them a wipe over every now and again to maintain them.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Mike 108 on July 13, 2007, 10:19:03 am
Some people are bothered about the frames and some people are not - it depends how 'house proud' they are!  Some of my customers have there gutters, fascias and soffits cleaned every year as well (especially bungalows, where the dirt and filth is closer to the ground and more easily recognised).

I won't clean 'windows' unless the frame is also clean - I think it reflects badly on the window cleaner.

Mike
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Mike 108 on July 13, 2007, 10:31:53 am
Davew.

Just a thought - maybe they don't realise how dirty the frames are - they don't get as close up to them as you.

I always point them out and explain that I'll only clean the glass if they pay extra on the first clean to include the frames.  No-one has refused and all have been pleased with the results.

Mike
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: gordonswindows on July 13, 2007, 11:00:19 am
Davew

It is annoying when you see the cheapskate cleaner being paid same as you.

To drive a private car for work needs the correct insurance not just the social domestic that we all have, this is dodged by the cheapskate brigade and if they have an accident they are not insured and will pay the costs both financially and in the court for driving while not insured.

Also why no signs on the cars? ask yourself is it because they are hiding from the social? the tax man? their employer?

You will find if you ask a policeman that any vehicle used for business must have the owners name and address somwehre on the vehicle, like on an old bus or a burger van its always written in some corner this is so the public can claim liability if there is ever an accident etc. Maybe the cheapskates do not have public liability cover thats another law broken.

Then the fact of hiding from customers if there are complaints no name on van custy cant find them, its the same as the mobile number only on a van, no address to be traced ,any problems dump the sim card.Just watch rogue traders and see why they use un-marked cars.

Now im sure i will be told thats all they can afford well i agree cos i had an old banger for a while but still put my name and home number on he boot with those cheap sticky letters from Halfords.Now i have all our vans boldly sign written see my post "sign writing"

And if they do not clean frames they are GLASS CLEANERS not window cleaners.

Do not despair they soon either shape up or give up, in our seven years we have seen them all come and go as our reputation for quality has continued to grow.

Do it right, do it legal and you will rise to the top,

Cheers

Gordon
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Neil_A on July 13, 2007, 11:10:10 am
When i get a new customers i allways ask if they want me to clean the frames aswell... with a small charge ontop for my time...  most say yes
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 11:49:04 am
you can have your private car insured for business purposes at no additional cost. It`s simple.

You do not   have to have your contact details on your vehicle.

Sign writing is just a form of advertising,not a legal requirement.

Many insurers load the premium for sign written vans as you are advertising what is inside to potential thieves.

Selling on a sign written van can reduce the selling price.

A car serves as a family vehicle to many ouside working hours.

Driving a car to a place of work is no indication of professionalism or lack of.

Cleaning glass or frames is an agreement between the cleaner and the customer.

If a window cleaner/glass cleaner has a round of well paying happy customers satisfied with the service their window/glass cleaner is providing and they have his contact details and he drives a clapped out car to and from his round...good on him.

You have no right to assume they are cheats or cowboys.

He may be driving home to a wonderful home he has bought for his family to grow in with a nice family car in the drive.

Plenty of cowboys and cheats out there in nice big signwritten vans doing an awful job.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Mike 108 on July 13, 2007, 12:04:16 pm
steve k

I think you are correct in everything you say.

But I think that Gordonswindows will probably be right about a few things as well.  And, after all, he was trying to give Davew a bit of a boost.

Mike
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Scrimble on July 13, 2007, 12:05:21 pm
just because someone drives round in a old van or a car makes them a cowboy?

get a life mate, just because you got your name written on your van "which more than likely doesnt belong to you its the finance companys" doesnt make you the best window cleaner around
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: ronnie paton on July 13, 2007, 12:31:30 pm
from my experience its normally the case that some one who still egts the dole doesnt pay insurance and doesnt pays tax have a certain image.

I know of loads of these in my area who have been doing for 10/20 years, it annoys me that they get away with it and no wonder they do do £2.75 houses every 2 weeks.

But im niot saying thats always the case!

I do thinkits time we licenssed window cleaners in england and got it out to the public.

It will help the future of window cleaning and will help get rid of the cowboysm in my opinion!!
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: paul mather on July 13, 2007, 01:14:35 pm
Notice this rant came on the back of a bad day you had Dave. Mark my words in a few years time you'll be so glad you have a van & a professional set up & not a fortnightly duster like so many round my way. Because by that time you will have picked up plenty of work & will be making good money.

Sure you can speed it up a little with canvassing but even so it will take a few years before you can really see you made the right decision.

Even after 15 years of cleaning windows I look at my round & wish some parts were slightly better, but yours will evolve over time & what you have in say 5 years may be unrecogniseable from what you do now.

So do get out & canvass & then canvass some more, but remember to stay patient & it will come, it just takes time.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Dick on July 13, 2007, 02:29:00 pm
wHEN QUOTING FOR A FIRST TIME CLEAN i ALWAYS INCLUDE A PRICE FOR CLEANING THE FRAMES AND IF THE CUSTOMER DOESN'T LIKE THE COST, THEN I TELL THEM " OH THAT DOES INCLUDE THE FRAMES AS WELL" IF THEY DON'T WANT THE FRAMES CLEANED JUST REDUCE THE PRICE A LITTLE AND YOU STILL HAVE A GOOD PRICE FOR THE WORK. EITHER WAY YOU DON'T LOSE OUT.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: xxmattyxx on July 13, 2007, 02:43:19 pm
you can have your private car insured for business purposes at no additional cost. It`s simple.

You do not   have to have your contact details on your vehicle.

Sign writing is just a form of advertising,not a legal requirement.

Many insurers load the premium for sign written vans as you are advertising what is inside to potential thieves.

Selling on a sign written van can reduce the selling price.

A car serves as a family vehicle to many ouside working hours.

Driving a car to a place of work is no indication of professionalism or lack of.

Cleaning glass or frames is an agreement between the cleaner and the customer.

If a window cleaner/glass cleaner has a round of well paying happy customers satisfied with the service their window/glass cleaner is providing and they have his contact details and he drives a clapped out car to and from his round...good on him.

You have no right to assume they are cheats or cowboys.

He may be driving home to a wonderful home he has bought for his family to grow in with a nice family car in the drive.

Plenty of cowboys and cheats out there in nice big signwritten vans doing an awful job.

Well said.

Too many people on this forum who like to put down other cleaners because they  dont have the same work ethic.

I drive a 12 year old vauxhall cavalier, does that make me a cheapskate shiner? despite my customers saying Im the best window cleaner theyve ever had.

If I got a sign-written van would that make me a better window-cleaner than I already am?

matt

Title: Re: Why?
Post by: gordonswindows on July 13, 2007, 02:55:55 pm
Well done Davew

This is exactly what is needed to keep the forum real and worthwhile.
A good topic we can all get our teeth into, the for and the against can all express their opinion cos unlike the amount of money being made and bragged about this is true opinions.

As an opion everybody has one .

I do believe my description was of cheapskates and as much as i love True Grit i never mentioned the word cowboy.

Some people do like to jump straight in and make the cap fit though.

I was interested in Steves remarks about the law and looked up his website to read his qualifications but was disapointed to find the website has been suspended.

I do not claim to be an expert on legal matters apart from the ones i have suffered first hand, parking speeding etc but i take my knowlegde from the local constabulary who are experts. I am aware that the laws of the land differ from Scotland to England and i  see that you are catching up (smoking ban free university courses etc) and i believe Liverpool think they are different again but what is wrong with being proud of being legit, paying your taxes and advertising your local small business.

Stand up Davew and be proud of your high standards and advertise your business on your vans. If its good enough for Asda Tesco and Harrods to do it its good enough for the likes of you and me.

Cheers
Gordon



Title: Re: Why?
Post by: gary999 on July 13, 2007, 03:51:20 pm
I will soon be getting a van,got nothing to do with image more to do
with practicality. have been using a trolley system no for around twelve
weeks hard work messing around getting trolley in and out of my ford focus.

have just t-cut my car due to all the scratches and scrapes from ladders ,trolley
etc. a van seems more practical to me.

it wont be brand new it may be an old banger but if it works and does
the job thats all im interested in.

gary :)
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 04:35:48 pm
Well done Davew

This is exactly what is needed to keep the forum real and worthwhile.
A good topic we can all get our teeth into, the for and the against can all express their opinion cos unlike the amount of money being made and bragged about this is true opinions.

As an opion everybody has one .

I do believe my description was of cheapskates and as much as i love True Grit i never mentioned the word cowboy.

Some people do like to jump straight in and make the cap fit though.

I was interested in Steves remarks about the law and looked up his website to read his qualifications but was disapointed to find the website has been suspended.

I do not claim to be an expert on legal matters apart from the ones i have suffered first hand, parking speeding etc but i take my knowlegde from the local constabulary who are experts. I am aware that the laws of the land differ from Scotland to England and i  see that you are catching up (smoking ban free university courses etc) and i believe Liverpool think they are different again but what is wrong with being proud of being legit, paying your taxes and advertising your local small business.

Stand up Davew and be proud of your high standards and advertise your business on your vans. If its good enough for Asda Tesco and Harrods to do it its good enough for the likes of you and me.

Cheers
Gordon


what are you on about...again???

My website is paid by me on a 2 monthly basis and I renew as and when I require a web presence...I do not need it running at the moment but just to show you how it works, I`ll put it back on tonight.

Qualifications... ??? ???

I clean windows with a WFP van system and occasionally trad...have been for 3 years.
I am an Inland revenue registered sole trader, do my tax return each year and carry public liability insurance as well as appropriate insurance for my van.

There are many window cleaners cleaning and earning a great income...legitimately, I might add...using their car as a means of transport.

I use a van as I also powerwash driveways and have a 400L WFP system in my van for my round.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Davew on July 13, 2007, 04:44:59 pm
To put it another way, there have been loads of claims on here of vast earnings and no doubt some of you are very successful. However having met and made friends with several cleaners in my area there are no obvious signs of wealth from any of them' so either they can't make much money, don't work hard enough,or prefer to give out an image of poverty. Unfortunately I wonder if it is most likely the first option. I have been fortunate to have saved from a previous lifetimes employment. Surely any cleaner of any substance would want the best tools available for his trade.
I think there can be a lot of hype on this site and any newbie (like myself) needs to be aware it's not a shortcut to earning a fortune - you really have to work at it and it takes time to buid. How many other services have the customer bugger off on holiday and not have the decency to call?
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: twt on July 13, 2007, 05:18:44 pm
many people dont realise how much they could be earning out of window cleaning and therfore are happy with what they get because they dont know any better.

Many people on here dont know the difference between turn over and take home pay so they bragg about how much they are earning neglecting to mention how much gets swallowed up by equipment cost and donations to gordon brown.

some people do try to maitain an image of being poor so their customers don't know how much their earning

other people may decide that rather than putting money into buying flash vans they put it into other things like their homes etc

other people earn a pitance
 
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: mark f on July 13, 2007, 05:39:10 pm
as regards using an old car. I have been window cleaning for 20 years and the majority of that was trad using an old car because i didnt want to spend loads on a vehicle just to do my round. My car was always insured for buisiness, i have always had insurance for public liability, have always paid my taxes and have never advertised, but have always been swamped with work and earn a good living.

  I now have a van with wfp, but dont advertise yet . Why bother. Ive picked up plenty of work just this last month. The only reason i will advertise is to get into commercial as and when i take the plunge.

 I never look down on wc's working on the cheap out of cars. They have less overheads. That is good buisiness sense. If they are undercutting and doing it on the side, that is different, but most are not.

 as regards boasting about amazing earnings, do we want the industry swamped with a gold rush like the plumbing industry has been.  Do you see people bragging about earnings on thier forums now? I doubt it.  nuff said. ;)

 
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: JM123 on July 13, 2007, 05:43:11 pm
personally I couldn't care less if other wcs drive an old banger or not.

when it comes to insurance there are a lot of dodgy wcs who don't correctly insure their vehicles, not due to cost but because they are dodging the tax man, simple as that.

one thing that really annoys me is the number of wcs who constantly flout h+s laws but then have the cheek to criticise wfp, I've had a lot of it and it is a source of irritation.  The best bit is a lot of trad wcs honestly think that wfper's have never worked trad and so think we don't know what we are talking about,  had it out with one lad lately who ...arggh, its just not worth it. >:(
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: twt on July 13, 2007, 05:46:05 pm
Mark whats wrong with undercuting or competative pricing. when you buy something or other does the price not come into your choice of where you buy it from. If a company offered you cheeper utility bill for your home would you not take them up on the offer because their undercutting another company. I
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: macmac on July 13, 2007, 06:13:58 pm
There is a very miss-informed school of thought & ill-conceived barrage of advise on this forum by many members that if you buy a bigger than you need van, a bigger than you need tank, a stupid fishing pole for domestic work ::) & a wfp system that you'll be earning mega-bucks in no time & to be frank it's all 'deleted. It's not & never has been the tools of the trade that earn you the money, it's YOU, the individual, no big fancy wfp system is going to make you any richer. Once again (for the sheep) wfp systems do not go out on their own & bring in more money for you. YOU have to go out & do that, & that is something that any w/c can do be it trad or wfp. It takes time, usually a long time, just think about it, if it was as easy & forthcoming as some suggest on here then we'd all be rich 'deleted'
And just to add, there are still loads of trad cleaners out there earning a fantastic wage. Me, i'm wfp & trad & always will be untill forced otherwise, a good percentage of my best paying accounts are trad only.
I'm sorry to sound blunt but it pains me to see so many people getting .'deleted'with all this wfp & millionaire nuts.
This is a general response & not aimed at any individual. rant over ;)

tony
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 06:14:03 pm
a gross salary is a gross salary and is what any conventionally employed person will tell you they earn.
A friend who is a doctor may earn £50k per annum gross. They would not, if you asked, give you a net income figure after they had paid taxes and NI, mortgage repayments, loan repayments, car expenses etc etc.
They would just proudly tell you "£50,000 a year"

The same happens when an employer advertises a vacancy...the salary advertised is gross.

Our overheads are just the same...tax, NI, insurance is £60/£80 a year for the sole trader, vehicle expenses and diesel, resin once a year and a couple of filters twice a year, a bunch of squeegee blades every few months and the occasional pole...?

Business= as high an income as possible with the lowest outgoings as possible

Window cleaning has to have one of the lowest overhead bills going.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve m on July 13, 2007, 06:14:13 pm
maybe they are in the same boat as I was, driving the old clapped out runabout till they could afford the nice sign written van. dont judge people on what they drive, judge them on their work
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 06:17:18 pm
Mac...just read your post and would also add that manufacturers systems have to be the biggest rip off around and as long as you get your tank bolted into the chassis by an appropriate person, a 400L system should cost about £500/£600 tops all in.

Title: Re: Why?
Post by: macmac on July 13, 2007, 06:25:34 pm
Mac...just read your post and would also add that manufacturers systems have to be the biggest rip off around and as long as you get your tank bolted into the chassis by an appropriate person, a 400L system should cost about £500/£600 tops all in.



HI steve
It woudn't matter if the system came free, it still wont earn you any more money.do you see my point? members of this forum tend to barrage others into wfp on the back of the thought that it'll magicaly start earning them loads more money. It's nuts & wrong. I always tell it like it is, wether it makes me unpopular or not. ::)

tony
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 06:30:11 pm
I would always make more on WFP purely because I would not last doing trad...I found the long days as boring as anything I have ever encountered and it was the speed of cleaning that I could achieve on MY round that swayed me into switching.
I still have a bit of trad which I enjoy doing but the days of  looking down a long street of semis on a cold winter morning and knowing I had to knock out 20 of them before going home are long gone.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: macmac on July 13, 2007, 06:37:59 pm
I would always make more on WFP purely because I would not last doing trad...I found the long days as boring as anything I have ever encountered and it was the speed of cleaning that I could achieve on MY round that swayed me into switching.
I still have a bit of trad which I enjoy doing but the days of  looking down a long street of semis on a cold winter morning and knowing I had to knock out 20 of them before going home are long gone.

Exactly, but you fail to mention the fact that cold freezing mornings bring many problems to wfp & how exactly do you earn more money? or are you still earning the same money but in less time?

tony
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Davew on July 13, 2007, 06:43:22 pm
OOh err I've started something here, sorry guys. I'm not trying to get at anyone - just airing my observations. I just had one of my worst weeks earnings wise so am a little grouchy don't start the earnings debate again please. :) I came home in a foul mood and just assumed that no-one round my area was making a good living. My problem is purely building and expanding faster than I thought I would have too. Mainly due to let downs probably because many people are feeling the pinch. Four hundred redundancies have just been announced too in my town. Employment wise things are looking bleak. Dosen't help when you hear that a local factory has just employed a sixty three year old eastern european!!!!!! I honestly think there will be riots eventually what is wrong with this government?????
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: D.Salkeld_Ltd on July 13, 2007, 06:50:00 pm
Hi All,

There's a couple of "cowboys" in our town:

One rides around in an old SKODA :o :o :o :o

The other has an old CITROEN VAN :o :o :o :o

AND they both wield a "BOGBRUSH"

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

David
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Paul Coleman on July 13, 2007, 06:54:13 pm
Davew

It is annoying when you see the cheapskate cleaner being paid same as you.

To drive a private car for work needs the correct insurance not just the social domestic that we all have, this is dodged by the cheapskate brigade and if they have an accident they are not insured and will pay the costs both financially and in the court for driving while not insured.

Also why no signs on the cars? ask yourself is it because they are hiding from the social? the tax man? their employer?

You will find if you ask a policeman that any vehicle used for business must have the owners name and address somwehre on the vehicle, like on an old bus or a burger van its always written in some corner this is so the public can claim liability if there is ever an accident etc. Maybe the cheapskates do not have public liability cover thats another law broken.

Then the fact of hiding from customers if there are complaints no name on van custy cant find them, its the same as the mobile number only on a van, no address to be traced ,any problems dump the sim card.Just watch rogue traders and see why they use un-marked cars.

Now im sure i will be told thats all they can afford well i agree cos i had an old banger for a while but still put my name and home number on he boot with those cheap sticky letters from Halfords.Now i have all our vans boldly sign written see my post "sign writing"

And if they do not clean frames they are GLASS CLEANERS not window cleaners.

Do not despair they soon either shape up or give up, in our seven years we have seen them all come and go as our reputation for quality has continued to grow.

Do it right, do it legal and you will rise to the top,

Cheers

Gordon

When I started, I used a private car (a hatchback) for traditional window cleaning.  The insurer was quite happy to add "in connection with the owner's business" to the social and domestic clause.  There was no extra charge for this.
According to something else you say, I have been working illegally since October 1991.  I have never had a vehicle sign written yet.  I do intend to do so with my current vehicle in the near future though.  I always thought my number plate was sufficient I.D. for the vehicle in the event of a claim.  It's possible that you may be right over this issue and that the law is an obscure one but I think we would have heard more about it by now if you were right.  Just for the record, I have always worked totally legit.  I have always given the taxman and the N.I. what they are due and I have always carried public liability insurance (though I don't think that's a legal requirement even though IMO it should be).
Although I may not have my contact details on my van, every customer has been given my name, address, contact telephone numbers, and my email address.  I even had a fax number at one point.  I don't think you should be stereotyping people just because they don't have a sign written vehicle.
Do you have shares in a sign writing company by any chance?   ;D
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: macmac on July 13, 2007, 07:03:15 pm
OOh err I've started something here, sorry guys. I'm not trying to get at anyone - just airing my observations. I just had one of my worst weeks earnings wise so am a little grouchy don't start the earnings debate again please. :)

It's debate dave, & a bit of a reality check, that should silence some 'deleted' & bring a breath of fresh air. I don't mind being un-popular (with the wfp millionaire brigade), just prefere to be realistic & honest to the people that need good, honest advise when it counts. many people make big financial & sometimes life-changing decisions based on advise from this forum & that, to me, is very, very important! of-course everybody's circumstances are different, & some will make mega-bucks & be very succsesfull but it's about the norm, the majority of peoples circumstances, evening things out & realistic expectations. After all, we are only window cleaners. ask yourself- could you be the next prime minister? the answer- maybe yes, it's a possibility, then just think of what would be involved in this persual of such a task! when the odds are probably 100000000000000000000000000000  to 1 against you. again, realistic expectations. ;)

tony
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Paul Coleman on July 13, 2007, 07:04:02 pm
To put it another way, there have been loads of claims on here of vast earnings and no doubt some of you are very successful. However having met and made friends with several cleaners in my area there are no obvious signs of wealth from any of them' so either they can't make much money, don't work hard enough,or prefer to give out an image of poverty. Unfortunately I wonder if it is most likely the first option. I have been fortunate to have saved from a previous lifetimes employment. Surely any cleaner of any substance would want the best tools available for his trade.
I think there can be a lot of hype on this site and any newbie (like myself) needs to be aware it's not a shortcut to earning a fortune - you really have to work at it and it takes time to buid. How many other services have the customer bugger off on holiday and not have the decency to call?

I can't speak for others but I can make some excellent money over the short haul (several days).  However, that often means that I run out of work.  I also still have a lot of work that could do with a substantial price increase.  OK so over a five day period, if I did ALL of my best work and worked hard, I could probably top £1200.  To assume that I have the workload or even the energy or the desire to earn that EVERY five days would be a complete nonsense though.  Indeed, I currently work a 6 week cycle for most of my work and for two of those weeks I have no work to do except just building my business up a little more.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Paul Coleman on July 13, 2007, 07:12:46 pm
Davew

It is annoying when you see the cheapskate cleaner being paid same as you.

To drive a private car for work needs the correct insurance not just the social domestic that we all have, this is dodged by the cheapskate brigade and if they have an accident they are not insured and will pay the costs both financially and in the court for driving while not insured.

Also why no signs on the cars? ask yourself is it because they are hiding from the social? the tax man? their employer?

You will find if you ask a policeman that any vehicle used for business must have the owners name and address somwehre on the vehicle, like on an old bus or a burger van its always written in some corner this is so the public can claim liability if there is ever an accident etc. Maybe the cheapskates do not have public liability cover thats another law broken.

Then the fact of hiding from customers if there are complaints no name on van custy cant find them, its the same as the mobile number only on a van, no address to be traced ,any problems dump the sim card.Just watch rogue traders and see why they use un-marked cars.

Now im sure i will be told thats all they can afford well i agree cos i had an old banger for a while but still put my name and home number on he boot with those cheap sticky letters from Halfords.Now i have all our vans boldly sign written see my post "sign writing"

And if they do not clean frames they are GLASS CLEANERS not window cleaners.

Do not despair they soon either shape up or give up, in our seven years we have seen them all come and go as our reputation for quality has continued to grow.

Do it right, do it legal and you will rise to the top,

Cheers

Gordon

When I started, I used a private car (a hatchback) for traditional window cleaning.  The insurer was quite happy to add "in connection with the owner's business" to the social and domestic clause.  There was no extra charge for this.
According to something else you say, I have been working illegally since October 1991.  I have never had a vehicle sign written yet.  I do intend to do so with my current vehicle in the near future though.  I always thought my number plate was sufficient I.D. for the vehicle in the event of a claim.  It's possible that you may be right over this issue and that the law is an obscure one but I think we would have heard more about it by now if you were right.  Just for the record, I have always worked totally legit.  I have always given the taxman and the N.I. what they are due and I have always carried public liability insurance (though I don't think that's a legal requirement even though IMO it should be).
Although I may not have my contact details on my van, every customer has been given my name, address, contact telephone numbers, and my email address.  I even had a fax number at one point.  I don't think you should be stereotyping people just because they don't have a sign written vehicle.
Do you have shares in a sign writing company by any chance?   ;D

And just to add to my post, I did claim some benefits for the first few weeks of W/Cing as well.  I was totally open with the benefits office about my then meagre earnings and they were so low at first that I qualified for a little bit of help.  This was in spite of being single.  The money wasn't much but it wasd a huge help to me as I started W/Cing on the back of a spell of unemployment.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 07:22:06 pm
mac...I earn more because the work is done quicker and the hours are filled with more work...
I cull quite a bit of work every 6 months or so and now pretty much have a mainly WFP round of houses that are great with WFP and the bits of trad that are enjoyable...all are good payers and can be got through pretty quickly.
I don`t work full time anymore but earn a full time wage...subsidised by powerwashing driveways.

I will not be a long termer in window cleaning...I am always watching out for the next step up so to speak and if it improves the quality of mine and my familys lives, then I will move on...no hesitation or look back.
Life is not staying on the same roundabout..I am always willing to try out a faster one or even a slower one occassionally...you just have to make the leap.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: macmac on July 13, 2007, 07:35:15 pm
mac...I earn more because the work is done quicker and the hours are filled with more work...
I cull quite a bit of work every 6 months or so and now pretty much have a mainly WFP round of houses that are great with WFP and the bits of trad that are enjoyable...all are good payers and can be got through pretty quickly.
I don`t work full time anymore but earn a full time wage...subsidised by powerwashing driveways.

I will not be a long termer in window cleaning...I am always watching out for the next step up so to speak and if it improves the quality of mine and my familys lives, then I will move on...no hesitation or look back.
Life is not staying on the same roundabout..I am always willing to try out a faster one or even a slower one occassionally...you just have to make the leap.

That's fine & honest steve, the hours are filled with more work, which ofcourse, you have gained or put extra work into canvassing etc. as you will appreciate, your wfp system did not go out on its own & create the extra work for you & hand you it on a plate the very next day :P

I also dont work full time but earn a full time wage but would never bragg un-thoughtfully to other people (sometimes less experienced than me) that to be in this possition is easily acheivable, especially just by going wfp, because if i did, i would be very, very selfish towards other peoples massively varying circumstances & would feel that there would be a massive scope to miss-lead them with rose-tinted views of my own circumstances.

tony
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: brett walker on July 13, 2007, 07:55:05 pm
Image the chap with the brand new shinny van thats got top of the range wfp'ing verses the chap with the ford orion does by no means mean the shinny van man is going to do a better job than the orion man, just like the backpack verses the top of the range wfp kit as long as your water is pure your technique is right your customer is happy.

Ive known window cleaners been going 20yrs and window cleaners that are just starting up all that can be said is do a professional job and you will always have a business.
Yes for some people and customers image does pay a big part

Personally i would love a big shinny new van and top of the range kit but cant afford one as i have 5 kids and 1 due next week  ;) so i'll stick with my little yellow van ;D 
Family comes first before new toys

Brett
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: pjulk on July 13, 2007, 08:11:52 pm
Davew said -
Quote
Even the established cleaners are running around in beat up escort vans

They have sense why pay thousands of pounds for a van when a dirt cheap one will probably last a few years anyway.
Then scrap it and get another.

Davew said -
Quote
I've gone to the trouble of investing about ten times the money or more with a signwritten van, wfp system etc and am hardly snowed under with work

Looking the part does not guarantee get more work.

Davew said -
Quote
Another grumble - why is it that people pay for a cleaner but arn't bothered with their frames being absolutely disgustingly filthy? Beats me!


Frame take more time for a traditional window cleaner so unless the customer is prepared to pay more for the extra time taken why do them.
You can knock out a few more jobs each day if you didn't do any frame's.

gordonswindows Said -
Quote
Also why no signs on the cars? ask yourself is it because they are hiding from the social? the tax man? their employer?

If you have a full workload why have signs there not needed unless you want more work.

gordonswindows Said -
Quote
Maybe the cheapskates do not have public liability cover thats another law broken

As already been said public liability is not a legal requirement
Employers liability is though.


Paul
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: pjulk on July 13, 2007, 08:13:48 pm
Quote
i have 5 kids and 1 due next week

Brett i think you need more work as it seems you have to much time on your hands.  ;D

Paul
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: NWH on July 13, 2007, 08:16:32 pm
What are some of you blokes gonna be doing when we have a good spell of weather,lots of you have caught up and the weathers been rubbish,i`m about a week behind.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: brett walker on July 13, 2007, 08:31:00 pm
Quote
i have 5 kids and 1 due next week

Brett i think you need more work as it seems you have to much time on your hands.  ;D

Paul

hi paul

 ;D ;D ;D

brett
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 13, 2007, 08:35:17 pm
nothing wrong with that van Brett.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Paul Coleman on July 13, 2007, 08:41:34 pm
Image the chap with the brand new shinny van thats got top of the range wfp'ing verses the chap with the ford orion does by no means mean the shinny van man is going to do a better job than the orion man, just like the backpack verses the top of the range wfp kit as long as your water is pure your technique is right your customer is happy.

Ive known window cleaners been going 20yrs and window cleaners that are just starting up all that can be said is do a professional job and you will always have a business.
Yes for some people and customers image does pay a big part

Personally i would love a big shinny new van and top of the range kit but cant afford one as i have 5 kids and 1 due next week  ;) so i'll stick with my little yellow van ;D 
Family comes first before new toys

Brett

New van?  Sounds like you would be better off with a minibus Brett  :)
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Clive McDonald on July 13, 2007, 09:01:52 pm
The clearly displayed name is a trading standards issue, and has nothing to do with the police and is a civil law that is very infreqeuntly enforced. They can make you display your name, but i'm not even sure there is a penalty for not doing so.

The original post was spot on. davew being grouchy notwithstanding( he told me to join the gypsies), but he does have a point.
All the WC i see, apart from some notable successes in sign written vans, and some respectable roof racked estate cars are herberts. I don't mean they don't do a good job, or are not insured, i mean they look like they earn minimum wage and have done so for many years.

Macmac you criticise braggarts on here,and then casualy mention you work part time for a full time wage.

Stevek you have an unusually decisive nature, possibly due to the forces, I envy that, I spend half my life humming and arring.The only times in my life i have got my a*** into gear have not been through my choice.(wife left me, made redundant etc).I thought my life was over at thirty five, in fact it hadn't even started.

Even so like most people I still find a new comfort zone, and once I'm in it I want to stay there.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Davew on July 13, 2007, 09:30:14 pm
Join the Gypsies? Ah I remember - it was in jest something to do with one of Lukes hilarious thread hijacks. :)
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: macmac on July 13, 2007, 09:39:24 pm
Quote
Macmac you criticise braggarts on here,and then casualy mention you work part time for a full time wage.
   

Read the whole post numpty ::)

tony
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Clive McDonald on July 13, 2007, 10:06:59 pm
Cheer up ;D ;D

I'm the one with the top of the range sign written van, top notch system, and no work. IF I could just remember the 'deleted' who told me to buy it?
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: brett walker on July 14, 2007, 12:43:04 am
nothing wrong with that van Brett.

 cheers steve  8)
 
 shiner minibus  ;D

regards

brett
 

Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Ian_Giles on July 14, 2007, 01:39:55 pm
Tony is of course quite correct, WFP won't make the money for you, as he says, it is the individual that uses the equipment he has that makes the money.

If you have an established round, and you have built it up as a trad round, then converting to WFP will mean you have the potential to fully maximize the earnings your round can generate.
And it will take less physical effort and of course be so much safer too.

I've been a window cleaner for almost 24 years...or is it 25?? and for all bar the last 20 months I've mostly worked out of a car and I've always done a professional job, your vehicle, your signage, your uniform all make no difference to the job you do...only the image.

But having that image does bring you work, and it also means that customers are more prepared to pay you a premium price, your image tells them that you are professional in your attitude and you are serious about your job.

My van signage cost me £250 to get done and it's paid for itself over and over now.
Last week, purely as a result of the signage I got to price up a £250 job and a £350 job...both on the same day I might add, and I got the pair of them too ;)


It is also wrong to compare the income of say a Doctor (as in the earlier reply) and the turnover of a window cleaner.

We have proper working overheads, and we might also have finance deals on our personal income as well as business costs.

A vehicle for instance is a business cost, for a Doctor he could have a 50cc moped if he wanted too, but as a window cleaner, to do your job YOU HAVE TO HAVE A VEHICLE. Without one you don't have a job.

And it isn't just the running costs of that vehicle either, every few years you have to replace it.
Some old banger of a van may last you a while, or like Squeaky it might only last you a week or two.
So even a trad window cleaner should be costing in the purchase of his vehicle into his pricing.
It's ok being part of the beer and fags brigade, if you are content to tick along on a very basic income then good for you.

But if you want those top incomes, put things in place that can help you achieve those ambitions.
It won't happen overnight, you won't suddenly start earning 30 or 40k per year straight away. it will take years not months to get your business up to those levels...

All the talk of big bucks incomes in window cleaner might entice some to think its easy money, but for most people it takes many years to build up a full and prosperous round, so those that think they are going to sweep in and make a killing don't bother me...won't happen...

Ian
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 14, 2007, 04:39:31 pm
I know of no doctor driving around in any sub £30k motor and I would bet you my last dollar they are claiming its purchase and running costs as a business expenditure.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: dai on July 14, 2007, 09:10:09 pm
I use a battered old K reg escort van. It cost me £300 2 years ago. The way water keeps getting spilled, it wont last much longer. But hey, it does the job. I don't want any more work, already 20% over capacity. I'm due my pension in September, so a shiny new van? I don't think so. If I was a young guy starting out Maybe.
The point is we all have different circumstances and personalities. If you have what it takes, you will be successful no matter what vehicle or methods you use.
Oh I also have a tidy car. Dai
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: Highrise on July 15, 2007, 10:26:35 am
I won't clean 'windows' unless the frame is also clean - I think it reflects badly on the window cleaner.

Mike
Quote

Ditto.
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: steve k on July 15, 2007, 12:57:34 pm
if your customer tells you that then maybe...but if your customer is happy then no problem
Title: Re: Why?
Post by: xxmattyxx on July 15, 2007, 01:16:31 pm
I won't clean 'windows' unless the glass clean - I think it reflects badly on the window cleaner.

 ;D  ;D