Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Clear Vision on July 10, 2007, 08:50:59 pm
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Was cleaning a large upstairs flat today.
6 windows at the back and 8 at the front.
I was 3/4 the way round and the grumpy old git came out to pay me with a tenner in his hand.
I gave the usual patter like how are you, nice weather etc etc.
He then turned around and said "I don't want you to clean my windows anymore".
Oh..... I said...... Is there a problem. He said " I don't like the water left on the sills". So what happens when it rains I said. Oh...... I will just have to put up with that! (wot a t**t)
He then turned round and said the water left on the sills is rotting the wood!
He then walked off in a huff!
Come on!!!!! How can I cause the sills to rot? Yes... It might be speeding up the rotting process as his frames are poorly maintained!
ARGH!!!!! >:(
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There really not worth the bother some of them? ::)
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Matt,
Go on mate ;)
Have a good old rant >:( >:( >:(
You're best off without him ;)
Been there and got the T shirt :(
David
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not as good as my best excuse ive had
it leave the grass wet ::) ::)
some people dont deserve a service
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I`ve got no time for customers like this,i don`t say anything i just don`t turn up again.
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I'm afraid the truth hurts, but most of our customers would prefer their windows left clean and dry like they used to be when we cleaned them trad, sorry but its the truth!
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Yeah but times move on,like not having to fall off a ladder anymore.I don`t care about any of my customers enough to fall off a ladder for.
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I'm afraid the truth hurts, but most of our customers would prefer their windows left clean and dry like they used to be when we cleaned them trad, sorry but its the truth!
Truth?????
That I was rotting his windows?
I take it your a trad cleaner? ::)
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Die hard trad cleaners can never accept the wet look,i`m just interested in the end result like most of the customers.There no point in leaving them dry if a poor job has been done.
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No I'm not a trad cleaner, although I still tend to do downstairs windows trad as I know that the majority of my customers prefer it that way. A good trad cleaner rarely gets any complaints, but anyone who uses wfp no matter how good is going to get his fair share of complaints because customers like their windows left dry!
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I havn`t had any because i told them they will dry clean and they do,if they didn`t beleive me the phone would be ringing.
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I can guarantee that if you asked your customers what they prefer, clean dry windows or clean but with water dripping everywhere, they would go for the clean and dry option everytime! ;)
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Who cares none have cancelled me and the ones that i see love it,lets face it it does actually look like your giving them a good clean with the system and not just rubbing them over with a cloth.
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I use a squeegee not a cloth!! ;) I know it upsets you but customers definetly prefer trad ;D
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Only because they want to see you earning your money ie sweat for it,no other reason it`s so much easier and because your not nearly killing yourself dashing around like a maniac they think your not grafting for it,it`s called mind games.
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I've lost 3 in a close of about a dozen & I'm sure it's because I do their windows quicker since I went WFP & they can't stand to think their humble WCer may actually be earning half decent money.
Well stuff em that's what I say, I'll go & knock on a few doors & replace them with decent customers.
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That`s exactly what i was trying to say.
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This is the dilemma I face at the moment. I’ve been thinking of maybe buying some work but I feel sure if I buy 200 customers I would loose maybe 20% has they would be used to Trad methods. All my work I have at the moment I’ve generated myself and have educated them before hand, so far no complaints and all very happy.
Me personally as a customer wouldn’t care less if they were left wet or dry so long as I was happy with the results. But you only have to read some of the excuses given to others for cancelling that makes me believe that there is some truth in what groundhog is saying.
As usual “People don’t like change” comment comes into play, but the same people will be having a laugh in 10 yrs time reminiscing of how their window cleaner used to come round with a ladder and mop and bucket asking for water.
Wayne
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If using a pole doesn't make you sweat then your not doing it properly!!! ;) And using a squeegee downstairs is not hard work at all, in fact on a lot of windows I find it easier, and the customers really appreciate it :). I find that they are sympathetic about the new ladder regulations and understand about the upstairs windows, but can't understand the reason if you start splashing water around downstairs as well ???
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but can't understand the reason if you start splashing water around downstairs as well ???
If it's good enough for upstairs its more than good enough for downstairs. Glass upstairs is the same as downstairs!
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My point is that we have a very good reason for using wfp upstairs ie safety, but downstairs there is no safety issue, so as most customers prefer a trad finish, and they are more likely to be downstairs at the time of cleaning, so I give them what they want and clean trad to give them good instant results!! ;D
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My point is that we have a very good reason for using wfp upstairs ie safety, but downstairs there is no safety issue, so as most customers prefer a trad finish, and they are more likely to be downstairs at the time of cleaning, so I give them what they want and clean trad to give them good instant results!! ;D
this is a very good point, ive been toying with the idea of WFP up and down for about 12 months now
Ive even start on a few select area's, ive had little complaints ( today i had 1, i did the lounge window and she phoned me up in about 20 mins and said they were left wet, i explained, i went back and had 1 run of dirty water that had come from under the rubber seal, it was smack bang in the middle of the front window ::) ::) just my luck, i explained about the cleaning of the rubbers etc etc and then did it the trad way
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hi i see here we have another one of these pointless debates! i was trad for 8 years changed to wfp 2 years ago now i have never regretted it ! i am now earning double what i did trad and i am now able to go for bigger more lucrative contracts something i could not do trad . so if you want to use ladders its up to you i am myself quite happy using poles each to their own !
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Can't you read Mr Tartan!!!!!! ;D nobody has mentioned using ladders, simply using wfp upstairs due to health and safety and trad downstairs to please the customer!! Read the posts carefully before replying in future ;)
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Whoever said that customers are more worried about us earning more than leaving them wet is soooo right.
It also happens when you get a new vehicle. One asked for a price drop when a turned up in my new van. One asked to go every other time when she saw it. No to both.
I didn't beleive it, but people are really funny. They may be in a mansion, but they see you doing well and get all funny. they see you do the street in a morning and do the maths and conclude that you earn twice as much as you do.
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i am now able to go for bigger more lucrative contracts something i could not do trad
I don't there will be any such thing in the near future, as more and more turn to WFP, prices will become lower and lower for big contracts as the work is easier to do and the marketplace becomes more competitive.
The big money was made about 10 years ago when owning a WFP system ment you could do away with cherry pickers, etc but still factor the access hire into the quote!
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The way I see it with WFP, as time goes by then more will convert however the customer will get more and more used to it being done that way.
This in turn means that as time goes by more and more customers will expect WFP on all the windows. For some people the difference in speed between trad and WFP pole methods is massive, for others there is not a lot of difference. However in truth the difference between a slow WFP and a fast WFP is less than the difference between slow and fast trad. In fact, slow WFP is not far off an experienced Trad.
There is basically four types of WFP folks but most of them are a mixture of some of them.
Just got into the business and jumped straight into WFP.
Too slow with trad gear.
Ladders are too risky.
Too many unreachable windows.
The first people to jump to WFP were mostly doing it due to the last two reasons, they decided ladders were too risky and wanted to reach more windows. The later guys fall into either people who did not see the point in buying WFP at first as they were fast enough and WFP did not seem to be as good for the customer OR the too slow guys.
The first people to move and also the "too slow and new" seem to be the sort of people who try to do 100% WFP (i said try). But it stands to reason, that the fast traditional guys who did not move until lately, or have yet to move, have little faith in the system.
This lack of faith is transfered onto the customer and it often makes little sense. We have always got most of our customers through them not being able to do the upstairs, and not because they do not like cleaning the downstairs windows (although this does amplify the reason).
When you have transfered your lack of faith in the system onto the customer (often this takes place only inside your head) you become worried that the customer is going to react in a negative way to the system. This is not good.
Logically, the average person in the street is not worried if there windows get wet, they are not overly worried if they stay wet. All a customer is bothered about is "are they clean?" and not "are they dry?". But as window cleaners who are traditional have, over a long period of time, implanted a different sort of logic (wet windows mean marks) and it is the window cleaner that is the "expert" you end up with a window cleaner that does not like leaving wet windows.
What I am trying to say is this...
The argument between trad and WFP downstairs takes place inside the head of a window cleaner that has no faith in the system and only inside his head, no where else.
You don't believe me? Then ask yourself this.
If you knew, 100% that WFP got windows 10 times cleaner (im not saying it does) than traditional methods, which would you use?
Obviously you would use WFP, if the customer said anything you would explain to them that this system is better, you would tell them straight that you have done lots of research and read lots of studies that scientifically prove that pure water left on glass is cleaner than soap residue left on glass even after someone has removed almost all the soap residue.
But because a lot of window cleaners have spent a long long time convincing themselves that water left on glass is a bad thing they find it hard to commit themselves 100%. Pure and simple, they have not got enough faith that it will be clean when it drys. Someone said that most customers prefer a traditional finish and they state this as fact. Yet I doubt very much that the WFP downstairs guys have lost 51% of there business to traditional guys or had 51% of the customers state that they want trad downstairs so plain and simple, it is not a fact. All they are doing is transferring their belief that trad is better than WFP onto the image of what they believe the customer thinks and as a result the brain spits out a result that "most customers prefer traditional". Maybe the brain has spat out the correct result, maybe not, all I am saying is ask yourself who is giving you this result. Is it "most" of your customers, is it "a window cleaners forum" or is it "yourself".
I think its the window cleaner that has anxiety over wet windows, not the customer.
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My point is that we have a very good reason for using wfp upstairs ie safety, but downstairs there is no safety issue, so as most customers prefer a trad finish, and they are more likely to be downstairs at the time of cleaning, so I give them what they want and clean trad to give them good instant results!! ;D
Hi Groundhog
trouble is that I am too short to reach the tops of the bottom windows trad so need a step ladder anyway. So it doesn't make sense using WFP tops and dragging steps and another set of equipment around to do the bottoms another way. Switching to a smaller pole length and doing it WFP makes much more sense to me.
Secondly, alot of trad cleaners do not clean the frames, so your customer will soon be complaining about the tops looking better than the downstairs. They will quickly forget the reason for your doing the bottoms trad then.
Spruce
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When you weren't posting Carl (you went AWOL for a couple of months) i missed you.
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Can't you read Mr Tartan!!!!!! ;D nobody has mentioned using ladders, simply using wfp upstairs due to health and safety and trad downstairs to please the customer!! Read the posts carefully before replying in future ;)
WHAT EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As i said pointless debate.
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you mean I typed all that for nothing !!!
lol :D
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Most of us went WFP to make more money, safety hardly came into it, after all we had been using ladders for years an never gave it a thought.
Some people have very short memories, they are pleased as punch when their minging frames are cleaned spotless, but soon forget how they looked before.
A percentage, and quite a big one, would be happy if we only came round every 3 months. a lot resent paying for monthly cleans, when the results are nowhere near as dramatic as they were after the first clean.
I never get knocked back on my bi-monthly cleans. I really think that's the best way to go on domestic, charge them a lot more, and come round a lot less often.
They will see the difference every time you have been. Dai
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you mean I typed all that for nothing !!!
lol :D
Yep :)
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Most of us went WFP to make more money, safety hardly came into it, after all we had been using ladders for years an never gave it a thought.
Some people have very short memories, they are pleased as punch when their minging frames are cleaned spotless, but soon forget how they looked before.
A percentage, and quite a big one, would be happy if we only came round every 3 months. a lot resent paying for monthly cleans, when the results are nowhere near as dramatic as they were after the first clean.
I never get knocked back on my bi-monthly cleans. I really think that's the best way to go on domestic, charge them a lot more, and come round a lot less often.
They will see the difference every time you have been. Dai
we will be on the slippery slope that will be once or twice a year, we will call you when we want them done, which is the practise in the USA and austrailia
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GROUNDHOG :P
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Spot on Dai.
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Karl that is the most boring post I have ever read :-\ I fell asleep quarter of the way through it, take my advice and keep it short and to the point ;)
Spruce I always clean the frames trad or wfp, and the customers really appreciate the trad downstairs, especially the old dears ;D and I can clean just as fast using trad downstairs ;D
Tartan that was a totally pointless post!!!!!!!!!!! >:( I am not debating anything, I am just pointing out the fact that customers prefer the instant finish that they get from trad ;)
Gaza :-* :P ;D
NWH WHAT??? ??? try a dictionary next time ;)
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Im a newbie to window cleaning and went straight for the wfp. I started in april 2007 and have 127 customers that all had trad cleaners in the past. some customers were sceptical at first but I got over the dry look bit by cleaning one of there windows including the frame, free of charge gave them an explanation letter how the water works, went back the next day and they were amazed how clean there windows looked, I havnt had a no thankyou yet. Sorry trad cleaners eventually you will have to convert to wfp even if it hurts.
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Please read the posts carefully before replying newbie >:( I am wfp, but to keep my customers happy I use trad on some downstairs windows, is that allright with you? >:(
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groundhog, ;)
just for you, short and to the point.
By doing the downstairs in trad, you are telling your customers that you have no faith in WFP.
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No I am telling them I respect their wishes, and they like their windows clean, sparkling and DRY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe yours prefer them wet and dripping? I don't know, perhaps you should ask them ;)
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funny thing this, the windows round here dry on there own. Do you have to go out then and dry em off everytime it rains where your from?
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A pathetic attempt at a reply like that dosn't even deserve an answer :-X
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but its true, if you do not think that leaving wet windows is good enough (and its obvious that you do not) then your basically telling the customer that you do not like the way WFP leaves the windows wet.
Its like your saying "I don't like leaving them wet, but I can only reach the downstairs ones, so I am going to leave the upstairs ones to dry on their own." When what you should be saying is "This is an excellent system and after an hour or so the windows will be sparkling clean and dry".
Anyway, that my point summed up, I know you don't agree and you know your customers much much better than I do so I have no place telling you how to deal with them.
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I cant see the point in doing the windows downstairs traditional? If your customers are excepting the results wfp upstairs, why on earth would they not except it downstairs? When i changed over to wfp, i went all the way. Im sure if your customers like you and trust you , they would except the downstairs windows being wet for an hour or so, just like the ones upstairs? How many of your customers have actully said, Mr Groundhog i want you to use trad methods downstairs?
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I cant see the point in doing the windows downstairs traditional? If your customers are excepting the results wfp upstairs, why on earth would they not except it downstairs? When i changed over to wfp, i went all the way. Im sure if your customers like you and trust you , they would except the downstairs windows being wet for an hour or so, just like the ones upstairs? How many of your customers have actully said, Mr Groundhog i want you to use trad methods downstairs?
Personally, I only have one job where I agreed to do the down stairs trad. It's nothing to do with quality. It's just that the frames let in water. They don't mind putting up with that upstairs due to H & S but they don't want the ground floor windows letting in water too. Once I realised the problem and discussed it with the customer, I was happy to oblige but this is only due to the leakage and is exceptional.
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WFP downstairs is not even an issue.
If you are useing wfp upstairs you use it downstairs as well, its common sense plus its more profitable for you to use it downstairs.
I have a domestic round. 60% of my customers are not in when I clean them as they work so water is not an issue. By the time they get home its rained and everywhere is wet, or the windows have dried out, or its dark if its winter.
Out of my entire round I have one old lady who does not like wfp, she would like me to clean her house trad, she has upvc frames with no frame issues. I have been back to check my work on this house, they are perfectly cleaned to a sheen that is unmatched with trad methods. She accepts that I wont do them trad and she will not have anyone else clean her windows as they will not get them as clean. She hates all the water dripping.
But that is just one customer on my entire round, The amount of customers who have said to me please dont go back to the old way as been overwhelming.
I think anyone getting hung up about wet windows needs to get a life. You would think it never ever rained in this country of ours.
Whoops its raining again as I type.
Nel.
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I don't see why everyone has got a problem with me cleaning some downstairs windows trad, it's my round after all >:( I think a lot of it is that people on here refuse to accept that the majority of their customers actually prefer a trad finish, if you don't believe me ask them and see what they say ;)
Anyway in my opinion it is only polite to the customer that if they are in say the kitchen or the living room when I clean these windows that I do them trad, so that they get a nice and instant finish, if you are cleaning monthly then the windows aren't even noticeably that dirty, so they are sitting there happily looking out of the window and along you come and leave their window soaking wet and dripping, which makes the customer unhappy :( I prefer my customers to look like this :)
If the customer is not in then I have no problem using the pole or trad for downstairs depending on how I feel like cleaning them, as for profitability it makes no difference as I can clean just as fast downstairs using trad as I can wfp ;)
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I don't see why everyone has got a problem with me cleaning some downstairs windows trad, it's my round after all >:( I think a lot of it is that people on here refuse to accept that the majority of their customers actually prefer a trad finish, if you don't believe me ask them and see what they say ;)
Anyway in my opinion it is only polite to the customer that if they are in say the kitchen or the living room when I clean these windows that I do them trad, so that they get a nice and instant finish, if you are cleaning monthly then the windows aren't even noticeably that dirty, so they are sitting there happily looking out of the window and along you come and leave their window soaking wet and dripping, which makes the customer unhappy :( I prefer my customers to look like this :)
If the customer is not in then I have no problem using the pole or trad for downstairs depending on how I feel like cleaning them, as for profitability it makes no difference as I can clean just as fast downstairs using trad as I can wfp ;)
It doesn't matter to me how you choose to do the ground floor windows. If it is genuinely your choice then no problem. If you only work that way because your customers insist on it then you may be storing up trouble. I say this because some customers are "give an inch, take a mile" type people and may want to dictate other things about how you run your business (yes it does happen).
I don't doubt that most customers would prefer to have their windows left dry. Unlike you, I feel that I can use WFP more quickly than trad on ground floor windows so if I was forced into tradding ground floor it would cost me money.
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CLEAR VISION are you honestly saying that leaving water on a window cill that isn't properly maintained isn't going to speed the process of rotting up?
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It makes no difference leaving water on window sills,it rains on them they also get condensation on them in the winter they get ice on them.It`s called the elements,if we were in a country that had hardly any rain and they had a problem with water on the sills i could understand it but we don`t do we.
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i bet the customer wasnt a £5400 job a year like mine!!
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CLEAR VISION are you honestly saying that leaving water on a window cill that isn't properly maintained isn't going to speed the process of rotting up?
are you really having a laugh, you sound like one of them customers!! it rains, and rains and rains some more and more and more and a little more rain
are you saying the water doesnt sit on the sills when it rains, in facct theres probably more rain on the sills...
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im with groundhog on this one .
i would say that a majority of custys would prefer if the job was left finished .ie dry .
the cill thing does bother me ,as the water drags the dirt out from the join at the bottom of the window and leaves the cill mucky .where as when doing trad you just wipe it off .
but im not giving up my pole .
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I'm glad somebody else on here is prepared to admit the truth about wfp, yes its a good tool, but like it or not the customers still prefer a trad (dry) finish ;) Good on yer Eddie :)
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I don't agree about that. A lot of customers couldn't care less. Its us that worrys about the details of WFP v trad.
I was trad for many years and I lost just as many customers with lame excuses and silly complaints in those days as I do now. More in fact.
Grumpy customers are a fact of life. They get fed up and look for some excuse to pack you in. You are often just an avoidable expense that can be done away with but they are not going to say they want to save money are they?
Natural wastage.
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My personal view is that for the most part most customers do not care...they just want the windows cleaned and that is about as much thought that the whole subject is given....I would imagine....breaking pots, damaging plants....collecting in the evenings and disturbing them is more at the top of the list than the methods we use...But as I say just my personal view.
Dave
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Why don't you all just ask your customers what they prefer, and I can assure you that the majority will say that they prefer them clean and dry ;)
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Why would I want to do that? Don't make problems where they don't exist.
You don't see customers going onto websites like this to discuss how their windows are cleaned do you?
I can't imagine anyone but us gives it a second thought. I'm in business to make money not to clean windows.
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I'm in business to make money not to clean windows.
So what do you do for a living? ;D
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Every body is going to loose a customer at some point, I havnt yet and it wont be over using the wfp, it will be because there moving house or something, I wouldnt even consider using trad method on the outside of houses it takes to long and thats not because im a newbie my mate has been cleaning windows for 16 years and we did a time challenge on my house, I beat him by 4 mins, times that over a year and thats a lot of money. Like I said in my last post eventually trad will have to change to wfp.
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I stand with groundhog as well.
Please read his posts again, he is not saying that you are all wrong just what he has experienced. My customers are the same. they prefer trade. but what I have found is if I pick up a new customers with the new way (WFP) I have no problems.
groundhog is not saying that Trade is faster than WFP just that he can do some windows faster, And I am the same some Is quick with wfp others its not but thats me. At the end of the day he is giving his best for his customers and thats good however I do think the shiners point earlier is valid if you give your customers an inch.. How true.
I love both Trade and WFP and will never say one is better than the other. If you clean windows then your a window cleaner no matter what way you do it.
Now you have to excuse me I am off to have a sunday dinner with my Family ;)
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Why don't you all just ask your customers what they prefer, and I can assure you that the majority will say that they prefer them clean and dry ;)
I don't doubt that you are right but I'm not going to ask them ;D . Don't want to start giving them radical ideas like wanting me to use a squeegee downstairs :)
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Why don't you all just ask your customers what they prefer, and I can assure you that the majority will say that they prefer them clean and dry ;)
I do ask on a regular basis if my customers would prefer me to clean them Trad.
The overwhelming reply is NO. My customers prefer wfp.
They love the frames being clean all the time, Yes the windows are left wet but they Dry, and when they dry the finish is top class with the added benift of staying cleaner for longer.
My customers say they get better value money now then when I did them trad, its not just the frames being clean its that the windows do stay clean for a long time.
I have lost more customers over the years as a trad w/c due to the windows getting dirty so quickly after I have cleaned them. I love the fact that is no longer happening.
Nel. 8)
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Thanks for the support Cat I am glad that somebody reads my posts properly, Neil I clean the frames everytime trad or wfp and I have not noticed that they get dirtier any quicker whichever way they are cleaned.
I am quite shocked that so many on here do not care what their customers prefer :o my customers are the most important part of my business, and I will always do my best to keep them happy ;)
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Thanks for the support Cat I am glad that somebody reads my posts properly, Neil I clean the frames everytime trad or wfp and I have not noticed that they get dirtier any quicker whichever way they are cleaned.
I am quite shocked that so many on here do not care what their customers prefer :o my customers are the most important part of my business, and I will always do my best to keep them happy ;)
Well I do care about what they (presumably) prefer. I also care about my income. Those two things may collide when a customer wants lower windows left dry. Also, a customer that wants lower windows left dry is only concerning themself with a temporary cosmetic look rather than the final outcome because WFP does a decent enough job (except for some unusual circumstances) and looks fine when it has dried out.
The only jobs where I trad the lower windows are one job I have where there is leakage and some of the bungalows where I was lazy about trying to convert the elderly people over (a couple of them struggle to even remember who I am so I certainly wasn't going to try to explain WFP to them).
Except for the above, if a customer insists that I WFP lower windows without good reason, there is a fair chance that I would discontinue the service. Leaking frames or a frame type where WFP leaves a bad job when it dries would be OK reasons. Temporary wetness before leaving a decent job would not.