Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on July 02, 2007, 09:24:04 pm
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Have just received a mail that Dundee Community Safety Partnership and Trading Standards are giving the SLWCN their full backing. More news later. ;D ;D
We must be doing SOMETHING right!
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What does that mean then.
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???
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Sorry,
It was a quick post as had to go out.
The major backing we have to date is the Trading Standards who are linked to Coummunity Safety Partnerships in each Council area. They are fully backing licensed window cleaners and have asked our members to be part of the " Trusted Trader". This is a list of reputable trades that have the backing of the Trading Standards.
They have now asked licensed window cleaners to be a part of this which is a very good thing to have. SLWCN members will be mailed details later on once I have the full facts about applying.
They also have an input into the local Council so we know have a strong support to sort out our objective.
Doug
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how does the slwcn adjudicate whether someone is a 'trusted trader'? can a trad wc be a trusted trader (under the EurWAHD2005) etc.
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Until Councils and the HSE start setting the criteria in using ladders we are in no position to point the finger at any window cleaner who is trad.
With regards to the "Trusted Trader" the Trading Standards have strict guidelines so not every licensed window cleaner would be able to join. I still have to check out the details.
Doug
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Until Councils and the HSE start setting the criteria in using ladders we are in no position to point the finger at any window cleaner who is trad.
surely they don't set the criteria - its a European law, I know that joiners etc now cannot use ladders. I'm not attacking trad wc here but surely if tradesmen are being recommended by way of 'trusted trader' then they must operate under current legislation?
The reason I ask is that in Northern Ireland there are an exceptionally high number of dodgy shiners, I see them on an almost daily basis of walking over ledges 20/30ft up, undercutting other wcers and holding this industry back - I for one would like to see licensing brought in over here and more enforcement of law where applicable.
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Quote " operate under current legislation ".
We could debate this for ages but even the HSE do not know what it is, they hide it under the term " must do risk assesment". There is nothing in black and white, all trades are carrying on as normal. The only trade I know they are cracking down on is the building trade.
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Sorry,
It was a quick post as had to go out.
The major backing we have to date is the Trading Standards who are linked to Coummunity Safety Partnerships in each Council area. They are fully backing licensed window cleaners and have asked our members to be part of the " Trusted Trader". This is a list of reputable trades that have the backing of the Trading Standards.
They have now asked licensed window cleaners to be a part of this which is a very good thing to have. SLWCN members will be mailed details later on once I have the full facts about applying.
They also have an input into the local Council so we know have a strong support to sort out our objective.
Doug
Please kindly explain to me why a joiner doesn't need a licence or many many many other trades??????? Why window cleaners????
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Window cleaners are targetted because they have regular access to peoples homes, the likes of plumbers etc.. will only visit a place once. Window cleaners will visit a property on a monthly basis so will have the knowledge when people have gone on holiday or are not in. This is when break ins normally occur.
In 2002 the window cleaning licence was looked into scrapping it but it was kept on the grounds that window cleaners have regular access to peoples properties. You will find that the Police Force have a big say in this and not Councils.
You can say the rouges have spoilt our industry which then required the need for the licence.
Tam can clarify this but the licence was first introduced in Glasgow back in the days of the ice cream wars and so called window cleaners were laundering money. Hence the licence was introduced and other forces followed as it was a deterent to rouge window cleaners.
For example Clacks who have just introduced it the local PC force did not see window cleaners as a risk, but Central Scotland Police pushed for it as they did. The Police run the show for licensing but sometimes they have been over ruled by some strange desicions by councillers.
Hope this explains it a bit more, also just to let you know Highlands will soon be on the SLWCN list.
Cheers
Doug
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Please show me proof that the window cleaning licence is enforced by the police.
Thanks
Matthew
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Window cleaners are targetted because they have regular access to peoples homes, the likes of plumbers etc.. will only visit a place once. Window cleaners will visit a property on a monthly basis so will have the knowledge when people have gone on holiday or are not in. This is when break ins normally occur.
A lot of window cleaners only clean outside and never go inside. Other trades can be in houses for months or even years.
Plumbers could be plumbing a house for a week or more!
A joiner could be doing a loft conversion or anything for months!!!!!!!!! and be alone in the house.
If your going to make such a big thing about window cleaners having a licence I suggest you make a big thing about other trades having a licence to make things fair!
I provide a service and and people ask me to clean there windows on there own property!!! Meaning this is a agreement between me and them! Please tell me where the licence applies here??? ::)
If I was to go out and canvas work on the streets then I might say you need a licence to do that.
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Money making racket!!!!!!! ::)
I am broadcasting this publicly
I do NOT have a licence and NEVER will!!!!!!!!!!
I will email you my home number if you like and my full name and address. You can report my to the highland council or the police if you like!
I actually phoned the council when I started and told them I was starting window cleaning and would NOT be applying for a licence.
They said."oh well we cant make you!"
I said " your d**n right"
I'm here to make a honest living and provide a superb service to all my customers which I do and I will not be forced into any unnecessary licence!
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Been cleaning windows for over 18 years in the Paisley area never had a licence never been stopped by the police once, its just another way for the council to get money of you.
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Matthew,
I'm not here to force people to get a licence, we are a group of licensed window cleaners throughout Scotland who would like to see a fairer licensing system for all. You can also see it from our point of view who are licensed why it is annoying when work is taken from them from unlicensed window cleaners. Everyone should be on the same palying field, it's like I will not tax my car because there are other people who break the law.
Not having a licence is breaking the civic law, some counties enforce it and some don't. Personnaly speaking your county is a waste of time as it is broken into several divisions. Then we have Tayside Police who have a division that look into unlicensed window cleaners, this is the guy, feel free to sepak to him :- http://www.tayside.police.uk/whereangusspu.php
No I don't need your details we are not here to shop people but to work with Councils in getting a fairer system. This is proving to be a hard task with some and others are co-operating. We are in fact shaming Councils with the fact they are running the licensing incorrectly.
The biggest problem is public knowledge hence the window cleaning directory which will be advertised in all local newspapers, which we hope will give licensed window cleaners the upper hand on those that undercut them for a few pounds.
People will then recognise that window cleaners have costs that they inccur so charging a decent price they should not be frowned at.
I know loads of window cleaners that are not licensed and they share the view why pay for it if it is not enforced. I can fully understand what they are saying and they would be willing to pay for a licence if it is enforced. And no I have not grassed them up.
But from my point of veiw it is law so hence why I pay for it begrudgingly and for a few areas. Thats my view, everyone has their own view.
To sum up Matthew we are not here to name and shame unlicensed window cleaners but to get the Council to do the job they are supposed to do.
Apologise if I have offended you in any way.
Doug
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Apologise if I have offended you in any way.
Doug
Doug,
First off I want to apologise to you for my abrupt manner!
I appreciate your time, effort and enthusiasm in your quest to try and get this licence idea set up. I take my hat off to you! well done.
I totally agree with your point of view and why window cleaners should be licensed.
I personally think other steps could be taken to sieve out the under cutters and one off cleaners. I don't know what though?
Although I'm not licensed I provide a very reliable friendly and professional service. I even wear a uniform with my company logo and name on it. I price jobs as high as I can and I never undercut any other cleaner on purpose.
So once again I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly about not having a licence and also respect you for what you are doing.
Would be nice to meet up with you one day! Not too far from you! Inverness.
Matthew
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No problems,
Should be coming up your way soon with the family as long as the midges are not out in force ;D ;D
We have spoken to other unlicensed window cleaners and they share the same view point and would pay for a licence if it is enforced.
We would also welcome other views from unlicensed window cleaners, please have your say what you would like to change as things are changing fast. So please don't leave it to the last minute when everything has changed because we cannot go back.
However one that we cannot fix are those who would fail a licence, this would be between yourselves and the licensing committee. A word of warning they are trying now to bring in spent convictions which I feel is wrong as we were all mad terriors when we were young. People can change and should be given the chance in life.
One document to look at which is a long read and if the council had applied these changes then there would be no need for this :- http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/30859/0026954.pdf
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No problems,
Should be coming up your way soon with the family as long as the midges are not out in force ;D ;D
When will you be up? You could give me a hand as im a bit behind! ;D
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hi clear vision
i have been stopped and asked to produce my wc license twice in the last 8 years in inverness, by the police.
highland council cant and wont enforce it, but northen constab. say they will
having said that, i have never heard of an actual case, but i have a licence, just in case.
but i do agree with you that it means nothing about how well we do our job.
kevin.
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When will you be up? You could give me a hand as im a bit behind! ;D
No probs will give you a bell when I come up, prob I have is waiting for a cheap room at travellodge as have big family so have to pay for two rooms ???
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However one that we cannot fix are those who would fail a licence, this would be between yourselves and the licensing committee. A word of warning they are trying now to bring in spent convictions which I feel is wrong as we were all mad terriors when we were young. People can change and should be given the chance in life.
Exactly.
If you give some of these guys a tiny bit of power it goes to their heads. Spent convictions should not be used against anyone. Even since starting window cleaning in 1991 I have been in situations which may have led to a conviction. Like the idiot who tried to pick a fight with me because he didn't like me taking a corner too slowly (I had a full load of water on board). Defending myself could have led to a conviction. Like the copper who tried to drag me outside when I was eating in a restaurant just because I was wearing an item of clothing that resembled something worn by a nearby troublemaker a few minutes previously.
You need to think very carefully about this. One moment of rough justice that isn't your fault could lead to your entire income being flushed down the pan. And no!! - the courts are not a safeguard. Plenty of miscarriages occur especially in magistrates courts where they automatically believe everything a copper says whether or not he/she is embellishing the truth.
Would they hold it against me because I got done for obstructing the police in 1977? Would they hold it against me because I got caught smoking dope in 1974?
Would they hold it against me because I was a social misfit until the mid 80s who didn't know which way to turn to get out of the mess I made for myself?
These power hungry t*ats would set the restrictions for becoming a window cleaner as high as they would for becoming a copper if they had half a chance. And you put one tiny little foot slightly out of line and they will remove your entire income.
At first glance a few might say that you should toe the line legally. But there are areas of life where this becomes a grey area. For instance if you wish to legally demonstrate against something a government wants to do. It's so easy for a legal demonstration to turn illegal with police arresting people pretty randomly. So your legal demonstration gets you nicked and your entire income is taken away. To avoid this risk, you would have not demonstrate against injustice. OK maybe that's not a very good example and I'm not into demonstrations anyway (my last time doing that was the picket line at Wapping when I worked in the print).
I feel that the state and local councils have grabbed too much power over individuals already.
On the face of it, licensing the trade for the benefit of us legit window cleaners seems a good thing. However, we have seen before how controls can be increased almost by stealth. Once the legislation is in place, extensions to it can be approved "on the nod" and indeed, often without publicity. If licensing becomes widespread, the councils could well try to set rates of pay like they do with taxi drivers. It would be more difficult to enforce this with window cleaners because there are far more variables than with taxi drivers. It would only need a few scammers to rip off some old people by charging extortionate amounts for window cleaning and they would be on every window cleaners case.
On top of all this there is the issue of people who cross boundaries to do their work. I live next to the border of three counties and work in all three. Then there is the cost of the licence. If the authorities agreed to enforce it, what's the betting that they would ringfence the costs of doing so i.e. the cost of enforcement comes from the licence fees rather than general taxation. The financing of enforcement generally is traditionally carried out by the fining system and from the public purse. However, more and more we see the payers financing a scheme and the fines going to central government rather than being ploughed back into the scheme. A typical example of this is the resident only parking scam where I live. Our fees pay for the wardens' wages and the general admin. The fines go to central government. I believe that the fine money should be returned to the scheme to keep the costs down.
Ultimately the customer would pay anyway as increased costs result in higher prices or a reduced standard of living for the window cleaner. I wonder how we would fare if the government imposed price capping generally to keep inflation down. That's not so far fetched either because that was done in the 1970s.
Rant over.
Now chopping up my soapbox for firewood.
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Guys,
Would like your honest opinion on the below press release that was done jointly with the Council and SLWCN. We will be working with other Councils on other press releases to help getting the message to the general public. Please note "the passing of information of unlicensed window cleaners to the Council" is a directive from the Council which they requested.
This and other press releases will be a case study on what reaction is received so we can have a unformed system of getting the message through. If you disagree with any wording please let me know, I can change SLWCN wording but not what the Council might want to put in but we can still advise.
Please let's work together with the same aim of improving our Industry.
Lastley this is a great opportunity to advertise your services if you are in need of work.
Much appreciated.
Doug
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b88/artymidget/CCF04072007_00000.jpg)
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i cant comment on the above becouse i dont know enougth about it.
but wether you think its a good idea or not your entitled say so.
some one mentioned above about builders or plumbers. i think
youll find that the the ones that have spent years building up
there reputation or portfolio or what ever you wanna call
it are more than likely members of some association or other.
for those of us who have spent ££££££££££ on nice gear.
getting in debt on a nice shiny van. pounded the streets
with leaflets or door knocking.
and some toe rag, or eastern european pulls up trying to undercut
you.............you might wanna then think it's not such a bad idea!
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i cant comment on the above becouse i dont know enougth about it.
but wether you think its a good idea or not your entitled say so.
some one mentioned above about builders or plumbers. i think
youll find that the the ones that have spent years building up
there reputation or portfolio or what ever you wanna call
it are more than likely members of some association or other.
for those of us who have spent ££££££££££ on nice gear.
getting in debt on a nice shiny van. pounded the streets
with leaflets or door knocking.
and some toe rag, or eastern european pulls up trying to undercut
you.............you might wanna then think it's not such a bad idea!
I think a viable case can be made by both pro and anti licensing people.
You mention Trade Associations in your post. That's not really the same thing as licensing though. My main objections are not about licensing or TAs per se. They are more about a system being fairly administered rather than used as yet another stealth tax. They are also about finding a fair balance between keeping the nasty elements out of our profession and suffering excessive state interference. Also, as I stated in my post, anyone can suffer a miscarriage of justice or even make a mistake. Most people don't lose their entire income over it though.
Although I did rather slip into rant mode in my earlier post, I do believe that the issues I raised were relevant. I am concerned that in a rush to "keep out the cowboys" (a better word doesn't spring to mind), the window cleaning profession could be shooting some of its members in the foot.
I am not from Scotland but licensing and additional regulation could one day take place in the rest of the UK too. I feel that it is important that safeguards be in place so that window cleaners are not excessively punished for relatively small transgressions. My own life has been clean for many years but no-one is perfect. Just suppose that some idiot approached you in the street and you needed to physically defend yourself. If there are no witnesses present, you could end up in court on an assault charge and lose your license to clean windows over it as you would be deemed an "undesirable". Maybe I saw a bit more of the unseemly side of life during my misspent youth but it has made me aware of the sort of things that can happen.
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Shiner totally understand where you are coming from.
In Scotland if you are refused a licence you can then go before the licencing panel and argue your case. A lot have done that and managed to get a licence.
What needs to be done is a set criteria as to who would never be issued a licence to, for example a perisitant burgular. That person would be considered a risk.
Where a person is not deemed a risk should be granted a licence, those who are deemed a risk I cannot comment on as even the Police could not answer that.
It's something I could not answer or say who would be unfit to hold a licence, it lays with the committee who you have to go in front of.
Doug
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Shiner totally understand where you are coming from.
In Scotland if you are refused a licence you can then go before the licencing panel and argue your case. A lot have done that and managed to get a licence.
What needs to be done is a set criteria as to who would never be issued a licence to, for example a perisitant burgular. That person would be considered a risk.
Where a person is not deemed a risk should be granted a licence, those who are deemed a risk I cannot comment on as even the Police could not answer that.
It's something I could not answer or say who would be unfit to hold a licence, it lays with the committee who you have to go in front of.
Doug
Those last couple of sentences you wrote seem to be part of the problem I've brought up. My feeling is that decisions could be made behind closed doors by people who are unaccountable. Even the window cleaner who is refused a licence might not get to the bottom of the exact reasons why. These bodies have a tendency to only give generic explanations. You cannot really appeal against a generic explanation. Mistakes can and do happen as well. I once knew a man who was in court for the relatively minor offence (even in the 70s) of possessing cannabis. He pleaded guilty - bang to rights and all that. When it came to sentencing they started reading out his previous convictions and if he hadn't spoken up, he would have gone down. A long list of burglaries, shopflifting and assault incidents were read out to the court. He knew nothing about any of them. Someone made a major blunder and nearly lumped him with the previous of someone with a similar name and the same date of birth.
It's very important that there is total transparency in the process rather than some semi faceless body refusing someone on generalisations.
If you are getting the impression that I do not trust the powers that be then you are right. They can be both incompetent and vindictive if someone's face doesn't fit. This can be hard to believe for someone who has never had any dealings with authority but I've both witnessed and know of some shameful things that have been done in the past.