Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jouk45 on June 27, 2007, 10:15:20 pm
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err, do you think these folk like us ::)
come on who was it ;D
www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=14204731
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Well looks like hes guilty but how sound is the roof and could the window cleaner claim compensation ?
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he is lucky the window cleaner didnt fall through, if i fell through a flat roof then i'd sue
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Many years ago a friend of mine was working on a large flat roof on a hotel, he was cleaning the windows above it and he fell through the roof and hurt himself quite badly.
The Hotel owner hit the roof when he found out, blaming the window cleaner until it was pointed out to him that the flat roof he was on was part of the Hotel's escape route as a fire escape for all the windows that opened on to it and then down a set of steps at the end of the roof.
Imagine the carnage if there had been a fire. He shut up straight away and had to pay up for damages to the window cleaner and to have the whole roof replaced.
If you have checked with the client that it is okay to walk on a flat roof, then any liability becomes theirs for not ensuring a safe working environment.
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Dare I say this, but had the window cleaner been insured, surely he would have told the client, had the roof inspected by the loss adjuster, had his insurance company pay the claim if liable and all in all everyone is happy?
And we wonder why window cleaners have this "stigma" attached to them despite most of us doing everything we can to remain legal and above board and most of all professional!
This is exactly the reason why this industry needs cleaning up and the rotten wood removed!
Sorry if I am ranting but this really gets my back up.
Need a coffee now, going to go and beat one of my staff up ;D
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err, do you think these folk like us ::)
come on who was it ;D
www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=14204731
Check this reply in the topic! >:( >:( >:(
"I never use window cleaners. I've never met one whose attitude I like. They all seem nosey, gossipy, overcharging, call at the most inconvenient times, and pretend not to peer in at the window."
>:( >:(
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Agree with Trevor, window cleaners have a bad stigma. I found this out when I first started it was the looks of distrust as a lot of you may know. But soon they found I was a likeable guy and now have to keep on declining cups of tea ( week bladder ;D )
Have had many a calls saying " don't trust window cleaners " then just mention licence etc.. and that regains their trust.
There was another article on the net last night but will not post it as it was bad, window cleaner rapped someone. When these and many bogus reports and it always window cleaners mentioned and some how other trades do not get highlighted. Yes there are those that are tarnishing our industry as window cleaning is the easiest job to gain entrance into peoples houses. Got speaking to a lad in England last night and he was telling me the drug runners are using window cleaning to cover their tracks.
Hence the need for a recognised body that everyone will use, we have it up here in Scotland as you all know by my million posts ;D ;D
Rant over, there goes my hone again, more work >:(
Have already given £400 worth to local cleaners.
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I had something like this a few years ago. In fact I could say when it was almost to the day because it was just after Diana Spencer's death.
There had been blistering heat mixed with very heavy showers. Between the showers I leaned my ladder up to get onto a flat roof as this was the only way of getting to some of the windows. I put my ladder up at in a different place from my usual favourite as there was a load of garden stuff in the way. The roof was 20 years old but looked sound and I had been up there many times before (though not on that particular bit). I took a few steps and my foot went right through the decking. Fortunately, it did not go through the plasterboard as well. I know I'm overweight but this was nothing to do with it. It looked like water had seeped under the felt - possibly due to bitumen joint melting in the heat then rain getting underneath. The chipboard (N.B. not allowed to be used on modern roofs) had turned soggy even though it looked OK from above.
Anyway, the guy next door was a decent sort and happened to have a tarpaulin so we covered the roof and weighed it down.
I left a note updating the customer and he phoned me up later. I gave him my insurance details and contacted my insurance company to inform them that they may be getting a claim.
However, although it was my foot that went through the decking, I feel that there is a lot more to this.
(1) I was up there with his implied consent because he wanted his windows cleaned and the only way to do it was by climbing onto the flat roof.
(2) As I was up there with implied consent, it is the householder's duty to ensure that the roof is sound.
(3) The flat roof was 20 years old and for chipboard and felt roofs the recommendation was to change them 10 yearly.
(4) If I was near the edge and this had caused me to fall off the roof, surely the householder (or their insurance co.) are the liable party. Just because I did not get hurt, this should not alter who is liable IMO.
Anyway, it seems that his household insurer took a similar view to mine. They actually paid for a whole new flat roof - even though they could have given a "wear and tear" argument. Even then the customer wanted his excess back from me. I did explain that the roof clearly needed replacing and if it wasn't for my mishap, he would have borne the entire cost himself within a few months or a year at most.
He must have thought about that because he said on my next visit that he was OK about me not paying the excess.
He also cancelled.
Funnily enough, fast forward nine years and I get a phone call from a lady who wants a quote on a commercial job. I go to view the job and give my quote with this vague feeling that I know her from somewhere.
Turns out she's the wife of the guy at the house.
Anyway, I got that job and still do it so I suppose that at least no-one holds a grudge anyway.
No flat roofs to get on there mind you. :)
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I agree with trevor,
There are too many window cleaners out there that give the proffesionals a bad name, there is no way at present to govern them and i think that our so called fedarations need to address this problem rather than many other useless causes they persue
I see quite alot of it and here quite alot of it
regards, stu
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I agree with trevor,
There are too many window cleaners out there that give the proffesionals a bad name, there is no way at present to govern them and i think that our so called fedarations need to address this problem rather than many other useless causes they persue
I see quite alot of it and here quite alot of it
regards, stu
Hi Stu,
I agree the Federations and Associations that represent this industry should be doing more, I should know, i'm on the committee of one of them ;)
The trouble is, its a vicious circle, we need members to generate an income stream to enable us to promote and raise the profile of window cleaners, however, to get a large membership we need to offer member benefits etc....
The government won't sponsor or invest in us and therefore it comes back to the money invested by the sponsors and the membership.
I wish there was a simpler answer.
Regards,
Trevor
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Trevor,
Not to slate the federations etc but the lack of goverment funds isnt the issue.
The goverment need to understand that those window cleaners that refuse to play properly ie: declaring for tax, paying for insurance or even the correct level of insurance cover in place . are causing costs to others like proffesional companies or one man operations, let alone the customers.
The federations etc need to be making them more aware of the need of a licence not a membership, in other words make it illegal to trade as a window cleaner etc unless they are fully checked now i know this costs money but if you are really interested in earning a living from window cleaning then you would be happy to pay for a licence.
For example how many window cleaners are left on both private and business properties to there own devices !!! clean nursing homes where scamming of its residents is wide spread, near children!!!!!
Who can govern it well im not sure but maybe the local council after all they were quick enough to send out letters in most areas inform council tenneants etc that they are not to employ a trad window cleaner due to the councils covering part of the insurance.
that said the licence fee would help pay for the governing of window cleaning and we all know the benefits to us if the cowboys couldnt trade
better name & better work
regards,
stuart
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Who can govern it well im not sure but maybe the local council after all they were quick enough to send out letters in most areas inform council tenneants etc that they are not to employ a trad window cleaner due to the councils covering part of the insurance.
regards,
stuart
Stuart.
Could you elaborate on the bit I've quoted please? Any web links? It sounds like it may be an interesting topic and I would like to read up on it if possible.
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I have 4 flat roofs that I have to climb on, and on each of these 4 roofs is a half scaffold board covering the area of the window I do.
I refuse to do a window until one is in place, I even supplied 2 of them for a £5 each. one board cut into 2, 4 happy customers and one happy & safe W/C.
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Shinner,
Our local council and a few further afield have sent letters out approx one year ago and released it in there news letter that tennante to both houses and business, although mainly houses were not to contract a trad window cleaner due to the law change and there insurance as they normally cover the buildings which is the insurance that would be claimed against if the need arised, they have contracted out the cleaning of serviced offices and comunial areas to a window cleaning company usinjg the pole system.
i have heard of a few other councils that are dong this
Thus cowboy window cleaners would or could possible have no insurance of inadaquit cover. could cost the council ££££££££££'s hence there steps
now if tennants pay for a window cleaner that uses trad and an accident of any kind occurs then the tennant is in jeopody of there contract and that means BYE BYE tennant.
So the council know that cowboys exist and are covering there ass but arnt willing to help licence the window cleaning industry
regards
stuart
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So the council know that cowboys exist and are covering there ass but arnt willing to help licence the window cleaning industry
regards
stuart.
Stuart, surely your not implying that all trad cleaners are cowboys?
How many of us started off in window cleaning with a shiny new van and WFP set up? Most of us started out with basic equipment, I know I did. Yes I was insured, but had my ladders on an old Nissan sunny.
If ladders are not illegal, then the council is out of order. Private houses are not obliged to provide a safe working environment. Commercial premises are.
Do council houses count as commercial premises because they are rented out?
If so that would apply to all rented accommodation. I think someone in the council department has misunderstood W.H.A.L. Dai
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Shinner,
Our local council and a few further afield have sent letters out approx one year ago and released it in there news letter that tennante to both houses and business, although mainly houses were not to contract a trad window cleaner due to the law change and there insurance as they normally cover the buildings which is the insurance that would be claimed against if the need arised, they have contracted out the cleaning of serviced offices and comunial areas to a window cleaning company usinjg the pole system.
i have heard of a few other councils that are dong this
Thus cowboy window cleaners would or could possible have no insurance of inadaquit cover. could cost the council ££££££££££'s hence there steps
now if tennants pay for a window cleaner that uses trad and an accident of any kind occurs then the tennant is in jeopody of there contract and that means BYE BYE tennant.
So the council know that cowboys exist and are covering there ass but arnt willing to help licence the window cleaning industry
regards
stuart
Thanks for theclarification Stuart. Think I get the picture now.
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I think it is a good thing for councils and alkie to be involved in helping raise the profile and standards of window cleaning, particulary as this industry is very open to abuse!
I am not sure banning traditional window cleaning is perhaps the right way forward especially as there is, to date, no hard rule banning ladders.
However, licensing window cleaning and ensuring we have insurance for whatever method we choose to use is surely a good thing. At least, well I hope, the window cleaner we are talking about at the beginning of this posting may have stayed calm, approached his customer and resolved the issue.
The only concern with licencing isn't how they do it but more to the point of what they set as the requirements. One concern as you have mentioned is the traditional method, this is a must for the council to allow this method as their is no reason not to? Ladders can be used as long as the operative has taken all reasonable steps to ensure it is carried out in a responsible and safe manner.
Any action from any council to help erase the people who cause damage to this industry through one way or another should be welcomed by use all as we are the ones ultimately who pay for it by increased insurance premiums and alike!
Trev
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Guys,
Sorry that this sounded like slating trad methods of window cleaning it is not!!
The point being that certain councils have adopted as like commercial clients to not except ladders but that isnt my point.
licencing of the entire window cleaning industry is what is needed not just trad
for eg i can buy a gas cooker and install it but i need a fully trained guy from corgi to attatch it if i dont and something goes wrong (and i live through it) my insurance would not pay up the list is endless.
Now i know i will get the stupid reply arhhh but window cleaning wont kill any one
REALLY
we all know its one of the most dangerouse jobs for insurance wfp makes it safer but the point is licencing the trade not seperating it ie: remove the cowboys that we all complain about
Forget all the Feds & Assoc's out there they need to come together Yes together like we all did for the water ban scare. and force the issue
It does not cost money to arrange a meeting with the H&S / Fed etc Leaders & gov officials.
The reasons are there the goals are there but can we be bothered or just keep complaining.
rgds, stu
PS Home owners do have to ensure there properties are safe for working. as they employ trades to work there.
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I agree with your comments
I agree it would be much better for us 'pro's'
if the industry was licenced.
Unfortunately it is always the same.
We talk about it and nothing seems to get done about it.
I for one would be happy to get involved in some way
but it needs a respected 'pro' to do the leg work and
find out how we can get this in place.
Do we start a petition and lobby parliament ??
Oh I have started something now !! ;D
Russ
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Does licencing work in Scotland!!!
A big fat NO
So why would it work in England!
Andy
PS and being the founder member of APWC I know must of the industry leaders are of the same view point
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What is the answer then Poleman ??? ??? ??? ???
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Your guess is as good as mine ???
Andy
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Does licencing work in Scotland!!!
A big fat NO
So why would it work in England!
Andy
PS and being the founder member of APWC I know must of the industry leaders are of the same view point
To make it work you need to get involved, no good shouting from the sidelines it needs everyones support then others will follow.
My opion and others on the committee is take licensing away from the Council and have it controlled by a governing body. Window cleaners are not only the ones in the same boat, other trades have tried and have failed.
The SWLCN may fail as well, but if we can get public support then it wil be worth the fight. But we have done more in this past year than any other trade organistion, why because we have all stuck together in resolving this problem.
It's a lot of hard work but I feel it is winable. Then it will drag our industry forwards instead of going backwards as it is now. As the saying goes action speaks louder than words.
My advise go for it but cannot see any of the current organistions are strong enough to achieve it. But there is no harm in trying.
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What is the answer then Poleman Huh
The answer to what? How many of us have actually lost work to so called cowboys.
I lost a couple of houses to two young lads, they work from a battered old escort car, and use ladders.
These guys are making the same mistake a lot of us made when we started. They are underpricing to get work. I wouldn't call them cowboys though, they are just a couple of young lads starting out in window cleaning.
Licensing can be detrimental as we are learning from the shellfish gathering industry.
I gathered kocklels for years and made good money doing it. If I want to do it now, I have to firstly travel over 120 miles to attend a foreshore awareness course. I can see that this is the result of the Morecambe Bay tragedy. I would then have to pay nearly £1000 for a license. I could probably teach the guy that runs the course, a hell of a lot more than he could teach me, I have been fishing our local beach nearly 60 years. They say that are only going to issue 50 licenses so I may not even get one.
We are all over regulated as it is. We have lost more of our rights in the last 30 years than in any time in history. Dai
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These are my thoughts and findings so far doing work with the SLWCN and why I think licensing is a good thing if run correctly.
Problems with our Industry :-
Many do window cleaning as a job not as a business, why because in a lot of areas pricing is way too low. Why because they keep them low afraid that Joe Bloggs aroung the corner will undercut him.
Why would Joe Bloggs come around and undercut him and make a living out of window cleaning at so low prices. Because 9 times out of 10 that person will be using window cleaning as a undelcared second income. These guys are costing our Industry millions and we will also be paying for their taxes. You now have the influx of migrants who themselves are now flooding the market with cheep labour. The Inland revenue will not even know they are working so they will not be paying taxes etc.. like we do.
We also have so called window cleaning companies who pay their workers pitance but they have to meet a set target each day sometimes at risk. These companies break all rules with regards to employment.
These I feel are the two biggest contributors in holding our industry back, so how can this be fixed.
The only option I see is if everyone is licensed, why beacuse everyone will have the same set of standards and therefore would be more than unlikely to undercut someone in the domestic market. This would also create a shortage of window cleaners which would then see prices go up, you then would be able to pay a decent wage to your employees.
But as we all know in Scotland it works in some areas and others it does not. The biggest problems is the people in the Council have no responsibility so hence they turn a deaf ear to problems. This however is changing as the SLWCN have gone to the top.
Ideally what we would like to see is a uniformed system that is not controlled by the Council and they have to meet targets. Instead of licensing by Council it should be licensed by County hence less burdensome to the trade. And last of all public knowledge and we are onto a winner. Yes you will be paying a fee but this will deter the ones who are dragging our Industry down.
Start looking forward not backwards.
If anyone knows of an alternative on how to raise our industry feel free to comment.
Cheers
Doug
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Today the smoking ban started in England. At about 2pm I went into a cafe to buy a takeaway coffee. Two blokes sitting smoking in the cafe. I said to the owner "thats not allowed any more" he shrugged his shoulders.
Without enforcement no regulations are worth the paper they are written on.
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Oops, my mistake Tam. Yes should have said licensed by constabulary area.
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What trade body? well there are enough lads on this and other sites each day so we have a body already, a good body as you all care about the trade, its just a case of organisation. If we can arrainge a cleaning show to look at near identical poles why not arrainge something so we can all get in one mind and start lobbying MP's. After all we are from differnt parts of country, lots of MPS.
The health and saftey Iron is hot, lets iron some shirts.
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If licensing comes in, I can see me being fleeced and bled dry. I live on the borders of three counties and work in them all. I even had an enquiry from a fourth but didn't get that job.
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D.A Services.
Thats the way and i think that the org's, fed's etc need to join force to promote this and yes i agree that no doubt the will still be people that will ignor it must its then the employer ie property owners, home owners and company boss's that will pay the price.
The council / Police / government need to set the rules and your right maybe a governing body can inforce them.
People will adhear to the licence if they can be heavilly fined and thats what the council / police / gov are interested in!
oh and safety / quality
Now i understand the point of collecting cockels and now you need to pay £1000's to be trained and signed up.
Well most people knock ionics and the way they carry out there business BUT
Craig Mawlam has the right idea in the BWCA to train us all to be properly qualified now i know that some have been window cleaning for years but £100 or so to prove your qualified isnt really that expensive same witht he wfp boys
So we are allready slowly getting trained so why not pay a licence to protect our trade and incomes remember we could say pay £1000. to be licenced then subject to meeting criteria a smaller amount say £200 per year then re licence after say 5 years with your licence able to be removed for certain reasons
your thoughts
stuart
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Another thought,
its not about those that trade from an old escort estate with ladders because most of us started that way
the difference is that we moved on re investing into our business's to attract more work, and a better income.
I know of a couple of companies as they like to be called ( i prefer to say cowboys)
they have sign written vans you know the type, a couple of guys per van and they work on a percentage of what they do now this leads to poor quality as there percentage is shockingly low not the guys fault!
They might have the minimum insurance or not ( im not saying) the guys are paid cash with the companies only showing the min wage befor tax has to be paid so thats illegal one has no licence to drive either there equipment is not maintained nor there vehicles they hide the majority of the earnings to keep under vat thus not paying tax properly and if they have accidently broken something on site/customers house they just drop the customer!
Insurance Ummmmhhh
but they have sign writen vans so they must be trading with in the law!
Now my point is simple not all window cleaners care about there proffesion which to me is a shame, because its a great industry where good money can be earned for those that wish
But it needs protecting
HHHHEEEEEELLLLLPPPP us to protect our business and earnings
regards, Stuart
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Well looks like a lot are in agreement. Yes you cant call the 40-60 quid a day lads cowboys, their prob glad to have a job but those who employ them do push them, worked for one myself 20 yrs ago £20 a day do as much as you can ect
As I said we are all spread out over the country, write to MP. Does anybody have any contacts within the HSC? ???
I had contact with a few mines inspectors in the past, but they hardly owe me any favours, more like the other way around, but they may be able to give some pointers.
Maybe the fed could be encouraged to tighten up and be a body to reckon with. All well and good geting good insurance rates through them when others just dont bother,
Any Fed officials on here got a voice?
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I am not working with the FED, however, as most of you know I am involved with the Association of Professional Window Cleaners.
We have a meeting in the next few weeks and will discuss this with the committee. I will try and find out what avenues we need to go down regarding licence's etc and will happily report back our findings.
Regards,
Trevor
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What you guys need to do is jion an association that will run with it as they will need as many bodies behind. To sit on the sideline will have no impact.
Who ever takes this up will be spending a lot of time and will often not even get paid for the many hours/weeks/months that they will put in.
Not trying to sell any association but you will all have to band together like we have done up here in Scotland.
Then a huge detailed report which you have to look into the pros and cons of the licence needs to be published which you then take to whatever body you are going to approach. That's the only way it will work, talking direct or mailing people does not work. Send out detailed reports say several pages will get you noticed. This is how we have got this far where others have failed.
Just my opinion and findings its up to you guys to take it forward.
Doug
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Hi Doug,
I totally agree with you that people need to get behind any organisation and help an association help them.
The trouble is people are always quick to ask for action but reluctant to join and put their money and support into action.
I believe the APWC to be a fresh approach and things will become clearer as time goes by regarding what we are trying to achieve.
As you mentioned, for any organisation to challenge this license and take it up on behalf of an industry would take vast amounts of money and time and backing. I myself have invested time and money into the new APWC and have no financial gain to be made from its fulfillment. However, what I am very serious about is taking it forward, challenging and promoting our industry standards and raising the profile of a window cleaner.
Its funny, people sit back and watch, ask for this and that, expect others to fund it and then when its all done want to join in! yet if because of lack of investment and support it doesn't happen they are quick to slate them??
Any new members are greatly appreciated and any support offered welcomed with open arms.
You all know how to get in touch with me?????