Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Neil Grainger on June 18, 2007, 02:20:54 pm
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HI all
does anybody use Prochems Leather Cleaner and Conditioner and are they any good.
Cheers
Neil
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I used to use prochem leather cleaner,didn't think they were anything better until I tried the furniture clinic leather cleaner.
regards Jeff
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Prochems cleaners and 'conditioners' are amongst the many we have tested during our years in the business. There are many cleaners on the market and whilst many of them do an ok job there are very few that can tackle the full range of problems that you will find ie. dye transfer and well ingrained dirt.
The safest way to clean leather is with a foam cleaner, not a liquid and ones that do foam clean much more efficiently than liquid ones and also take less time. Cleaning leather should not be hard work if you are using effective products that do the work for you.
Conditioning leather is totally unnecessary and in most cases the products do nothing, at worst they can do damage to the leather so it is a waste of money to apply a product that does not work or at worst is harmful. A lot of conditioners contain waxes and oils which in the long term when used on finished leathers will damage the finish by attracting more dirt and oils onto the surface (the 2 things which ultimately do a lot of harm to leather).
You really need to be using a leather protector which will inhibit dirt and oils and the product should not contain oils, waxes or silicones.
Prochem are not a specialist producer of leather chemicals (something they accept when we have had discussions with them) and will not be able to give technical advice if it were needed. Much better to go to a company who can fully support their products with technical back up.
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well according to connolly leather does need feeding and conditioning...
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Glynn,
He also used to say... "Dont Live A Little, Live A Loto"
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Connolly's do not exist anymore. When they were in their heyday leather was tanned in a different way to the method that is used today and did need a certain amount of 'conditioning'. Todays methods are much more chemically controlled and all the oils that are introduced are sealed into the leather so do not need replacing in the same way. Connolly's did not produce the best leather in the world the only reason they made a name for themselves was because their tannery was next door to Rolls Royce and so was used on their cars. Things have moved on a great deal and changed considerably since those days. The people who bought the name Connolly certainly don't represent the market with any authority these days.
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Neil,
We use LTT products for leather cleaning and use prochems conditioner. I have never tried prochems cleaner, but the conditioner definitely makes the leather softer and gives it a lovely shine.
Not really sure if it adds to resoiling, i did my leather suite as described and it didnt add to the resoiling rate (did 3 conditioners on 3 diff seats that all got manky at the same rate). Even Alltecs fluorochemical bottle of solvent resoiled at the same rate and i think this must be an inappropriate product from what i have studied on leather.
People think that you need to condition and you must address the needs of the market. Just my 2 cents.
Mabe Judy/Andy sells something that is £6 a bottle, does about 50 seats of leather and address the needs for a conditioner?
Graeme
Access Cleaning Solutions.
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Never used anything other tham prochems leather stuff and have heard there is better but seems to do an ok job.
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There are a few things to think about when it comes to cleaning/conditioning leather.
1. For a cleaner, just sample the ones available and use what you find best. Use one specific for leather or otherwise test what you use to see that it doesn't cause damage. You can call us for a sample of leather cleaner if you want.
2. Conditioning. Modern leather that has a pigmented finish doesn't mainly need it , but there are instances where it does. REMEMBER THOUGH: not all leather out there is modern!!! especially in old cars! and so conditioning will do some good.
Also, applying a conditioner to a leather that has a pigmented finish won't cause any damage. It just wipes on and then off again. Any residue left will just come off as the leather is used. Advantages of some conditioners (although they might not do anything good to the leather) is that they could make the leather shine, or smell nice.At the end of the day its all about pleasing the customer. :D
3. Protecting. Applying a protection cream to leather obviously has better benefits than using a conditioner.
The one we supply conditions and protects. When pigmented leather cracks or hardens applying a cnditioner will soften and revive the leather, as well as offering a protective coating.
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For what it's worth I used prochem leather cleaner and found it to be nigh on useless. Due to it's low ph I actually use Dove :o
Will
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For past couple of years I have used Furniture clinics stuff for 90% of my work and LTT for the other 10%.
Furniture Clinic chems are very good quality and about 50% cheaper than some of the others ;)
Just wish Furniture clinic would do an aerosol solvent base finish as LTT do but it is really good but also very costly :(
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The aerosol finishes do tend to work out more expensive but are very handy for using on site. The finishes are a lot cheaper when bought in bulk for use with an airbrush. All our products come down in price when bought in quantity.
Our cleaners and protectors may be more expensive but go much further than most other products and also work more effectively so in the long run work out no more expensive.
The cost of product for cleaning and protecting a 3 piece suite is minimal and our products do the job in half the time so as cleaners you win all round.
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Paul,
Thats what I found with the LTT products, sorry Judy but the 1 day course I came on was good but the cost of the product is very high compared to others so thought that I would try cheaper options before making my mind up.
I know cheap is not good but overpriced I think some of the products are.
Cheers
Neil
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Neil
Ltt are expensive and the products are good, I found through trial and error that the products from le prevo and especially Furniture clinic that I cut my costs by half.Not only that but most of the products were actually up to 50 % cheaper as they are made on site and not bought through a middle agent. Also found there service and help second to none 8)
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Just wish Furniture clinic would do an aerosol solvent base finish as LTT do but it is really good but also very costly :(
I made some up the other week and was very happy with the results. Im just debating now weather to make them up in quanitity in water or solvent based. I can quite easily do both but was considering water based with the obvious health and safety benefits!
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What % of the clean of a leather suite is cleaner/protector?
Personally I'd just use the best product even if it was twice the price. Backup would be my next deciding factor.
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You can only compare prices on like for like products. You cannot compare a conditioner with a protector as they are 2 very different things.
A conditioner can be produced very cheaply, but as I have said does nothing at best or at worst leaves residues which in the long run cause damage so it is a waste of time and product, something I'm sure your customers would not be happy about. It can also take a long time to apply as they are generally creamy in consistency and need to be buffed (apparently).
A protector is doing a good service to the leather by protecting it from oils from the body and the build up of dirt. Protectors are more expensive to produce but should be very effective, this cannot be achieved by a conditioner/protector as the protective element has been diluted and makes it a completely different product.
The only comparisons to our product on the market are Fenice and Leather Master both of which are creams and take longer and much more product to apply. Therefore in comparison (they are about the same price as ours) ours is much more cost effective only taking 20 mins to apply and only needing 100ml as opposed to 250ml (approx.).
The cost involved on product for leather cleaning is minimal whosever product you use but the time saved by using the best products can be enormous as those cleaners who have come over to our products have discovered. As Mike says the back up support you get is all important on whatever product you use.
Just a few points on other comments.
Leather should be left in the normal state of the leather ie. if it was shiny it should be shiny if it was matt it should be matt. A product should not leave it shiny otherwise it is leaving another finish on the surface. Shine is usually caused by the use of incorrect cleaning products and/or the build up of dirt (they are usually related) so needs to be addressed not added to.
Cracked leather does not need conditioning it needs fixing and the addition of waxes or oils may make this impossible.
LTT do both water based and solvent finishes and have stood the test of time as we have had no finish failures in the time they have been used (when used correctly) we also do 80 colours of finish for use on anilines and pigments.
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What % of the clean of a leather suite is cleaner/protector?
On an average size suite, you would use between 250ml - 500ml cleaner and about only 100ml protector.
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The problem now is that suppliers are changing the name of their product from a conditioner to a protector (because we have been saying for so long that this is what leather needs) without changing the product, so you have to be sure that when it is called a protector it does actually do that otherwise you still have the same problems.
Most ones we have tested do not protect at all or if they do, do not last for very long, the only ones that stand up in tests are Fenice, LeatherMaster and LTT.
Always make sure it is inhibiting the absorption of body oils and dirt by testing it yourself. All good protectors are made from fluorochemicals similar to the system used by scotchgard.
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Judy i noted when using your protector that it had a plastic like coating.
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There is no way that our protector ever causes any form of coating on the surface other than an invisble one that inhibits oils and dirt from being absorbed.
It cannot possibly form a plastic coating. Maybe it was whatever had been used previously.
According to my records I have no evidence of you purchasing our leather protector or any other products. ???
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Judy I bought it from you at the cleaning show in Birmingham, you may remember taking my email details to send me the information you talked about, but never did ::)
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As I spoke to hundreds of people at the show and have never met you before I'm afraid I cannot recall the meeting and there is nothing on my show records. What details were you looking for?
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None, I dont need anything from you as it was you who was chomping at the bit for my details which you wrote in your book.
You must have used invisible ink :D :D
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A few things.
A conditioner can actually be more expensive to make. You have to create an emulsion, which requires it being made in a reactor.
As Paul said your protector can form a plastic like film. That is because it is just a flouro polymer dilued down with water. No chemical reation is needed to make the product, just mix it in a barrell.
Not only that, but flouro polymers are only about £6 KG and can be thinned down up to four times. It is a lot cheaper to make, not more expensive.
Judy, if I wanted to make a protector like yours it wouldn't be a problem, I just don't think its half as good as Furniture Clinics.
You have continually said that your protector is the best on the market, in this post and on may other occasions. And I have asked you many times for proof......but never have you showed it. Please Judy, present us with your test reports prooving yours is the best.
I have had my protector professionally and independantly tested. This also showed that a conditoner/protector does not damage leather in anyway.........yet you still tell people it does.
Do everyone a favour and just advise on what you know, stop slagging off your competition and focus on improving your own products!
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Its kicked off again ::)
Judy is it full moon time again :-X
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There are many types of fluro products. We use a fluoro carbonated product rather than a fluoro polymer which is the cheap version that will cause the plastic coating effect. A fluoro carbonated product is created using other elements including a small amount of polymer but does not form a plastic coating. It was specifically developed as an alternative to these plastic coating products.
I am not a chemist and do not pretend to be but rely on the lab that produces these products for us to do the research: We specialise in product use.
We have many samples of products they produce in research to ensure that our products perform as well as they can and remain cost effective.
We have spoken to 2 independent chemists (not related to our product production) and they have said that some fluoro chemicals can cost up to £50+ per kilo and would be very difficult to replicate outside a fully equipped laboratory.
I have never said that your product damages leather only that conditioners may damage leather due to their contents.
In our opinion/experience independent testing will very rarely be comparative but will only test whether it is safe to use on leather of various types and can rarely indicate usage over a period of time or under household conditions.
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Just pour your protector onto a dish and let it dry.......you will see that it creates a plastic coating, thus proving that it is polymeric.
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Just pour your protector onto a dish and let it dry.......you will see that it creates a plastic coating, thus proving that it is polymeric.
Ben thats exactly what I did to test it before use ( great minds and all that)and found it to leave a surface film when dry which had a plastic feel and look to it.
Just back to protectors, on my tests I found both LTT and Furniture Clinics good, but Furniture clinics was thicker and had a better leather type odour. Ref price 5 ltrs off Funiture Clininc is around £50 LTT is around £90, big difference.
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Sorry for the delay in replying to this but I asked Andy to conduct some workshop tests under our strictly controlled conditions and supply his opinions, which are as follows.
"Now that things are getting practical I thought I would have a go. I haven't tried this 'plate test' before for 'polymeric action' so I thought we should do it ourselves. To make any reasonable assessment it had to be comparative so I used several different conditioners/protectors, poured small puddles onto a plate and allowed to dry (24hours) I wasn't happy using the speed drying process. I am not sure what the results were supposed to prove but I think it was more coagulation or congealing that was going on than 'polymeric' action which I believe is more to do with combining polymers or creating molecular chains!!!!! and is not something I would expect to see or assess so not proving very much at all.
Anyway as the plate did not simulate leather to any degree I decided to go a bit further and do the same experiment with pigment coated leather. Puddle of product, allow to dry for 24-36hours, examine. I was very happy with how our product performed, well adhered to the surface, no cracking, crazing, or flaking when flexed (although it eventually gave way under severe stress). I won't comment here on the other products for professional reasons but I do not feel the need for any immediate improvements to our product. Again the test is not indicitive of any real performance. We recommend that our product is applied in a thin layer, the quantity of products tested must have been 100x the thickness of that and took 36 hours to dry completely, but there may be some correlations to performance.
The test is easy enough for any of you to try for yourselves and make your own mind up.
I also note that Paul is making a direct price comparison between LTT and FC and also that FC product is thicker and therefore that this must make it better.
We used to use a thicker product but have found that making a thin protector it is more effective at protection (by comparitive testing), covers 30-50% more area ( by applying to suites and measuring quantities), 30-50% quicker to apply (by timing application) and less effort (by assessing how much my arm ached!!).
If 100ml* is required for the average suite cost difference is 80p (not as dramatic as £50/£90) and then compute all the above into the equation, we won't be thickening up our product any time soon.
*Quantity can be anything from 50 - 200ml depending on size of furniture and leather absorbency."
Thanks to Andy for doing this for me.
Regards
Judy
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Its nice to stretch the experts ;D
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Been using Furniture Clinc cleaner just lately but I always go back to microsplitters when cleaning Leather, but I would never try to clean anything I'm not sure about with this.
Judy/Ben, you must have done a test by now with Microsplitters and neither of you have ever said it does any damage to the finish, I'm sure if your findings had been negative you would have posted them on here by now. ;)
Just a thought.
Phil
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What is this all about ? Is there any need for it? Check out the products available and decide for yourself and stop this childish nonsense that has developed. I cannot see where people get off with all this digging and nastiness- lifes too short.
Mike
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Not me, I just asked about Prochems Cleaners.
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I used to use microsplitters on leather great results but just found them a bit too abrasive on some leathers especially where there where grease marks.
and i am talking about pigmented leathers here not analine so now stick with purpose designed leather cleaners same results without the worry.
Regards Andy Locke/ Melling carpet care.
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Why on earth doesn't Judy & Ben actually try MS on leather, at least just to see for themselves how good it works ?.
And then when they are at the very least convinced that it probably outperforms what they sell (imo) get it tested & approved.
WHY NOT ???....
This is 2007 isn't it ?
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obvious really ::) if they approve M/S than the sale of there products goes down, it'll be shooting themselves in the foot.
why approve some thing they don't make or sell ;) ;)
Mike
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Must admit that the creams for cleaning leather don't look as harsh as MS but when it comes to getting the black from the grooves MS and others saves time and elbow grease.
Shaun
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We have tested microsplitters and have previously discussed the results. We have found them not to be as effective as the leather cleaners, they are liquids rather than foams which can cause problems and the long term effects have not been tested. They can be as has been said too abrasive on some finishes and I am sure that the manufacturers of microsplitters would not be able to help with any problems that may occur, far safer to stick to well tested specific products. Microsplitters have been tested by the factory that produces our products and they have found no benefit, if there was they would produce one.
Shaun - a leather cleaner should not be a cream as this will not produce good results as the residues need cleaning off when you have done your cleaning which means a double job, far better to do it in one go. Most cream cleaners just move the dirt around.
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How can you claim "not as effective" when they are clearly more effective ?.
Or have you simply not tried it ?
imo
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Judy I meant that they felt less 'sharp' (if that makes sense) when put through a foaming despenser they feel even better, when you apply MS you litterally spray or wipe it on. I don't think I'm making much sense and I haven't even had a drink!
I just think the thicker texture feels less aggressive.
Shaun
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In what way are they 'clearly more effective'? Maybe the abrasion has removed the finish on the leathers you have cleaned which would leave the leather looking much brighter and very clean but will leave the leather unfinished which long term will be very harmful.
Of course we have tried them, we are sent products to try all the time and if we found anything which was so good we would gladly offer it as a solution but as yet microsplitters have proved to be not as effective and possibly in some circumstances damaging.
Shaun thanks for the clarification, they do as the foaming mechanism makes the cleaners very soft. One other problem with microsplitters if you spray them on is the potential for runs which can be impossible to remedy.
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There's always the fact that microsplitters cost pennies and if the suppliers of leather cleaning products were to endorse that m/s were effective then they would lose money.
Maybe i'm being cynical ???
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The nature of our business is to bring the best products and techniques that are available for leather cleaning and repair to the open market and if microsplitters were the best then we would happily sell them. Our generic training covers many solutions to problems.
We have no knowledge of the leather products you use Glynn and if you want to send us some samples we will happily try them and let you know the results.
Using soap and water has long been recommended but in recent years many manufacturers have added much more salt to their products to aid the cleaning of dishes/clothes etc and these can damage the finish on leather which is why we recommend the use of specifically tested leather products with good product back up as being the best option.