Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Clear Vision on June 16, 2007, 10:58:15 am
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I tried out my new back pack first thing this morning with tap water. (it was quicker)
Anyway, the glass is now completely dry and there is not 1 spot!!! Honestly!
I couldn't believe it. Why is this? Will I throw all my di bottles away and my ro unit?
My tap tds is usually anywhere between 026ppm & 036ppm
Any ideas?
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26 is extermely low and you could probably get by with it, but you have to be 100% sure.
Not all glass will dry perfect with tds of 30.
Dave
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You have softy water with very little calcium and yes it looks like you dont need all the filtering- lucky person you.
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So would I be safe to use my tap water or just to be on the safe side di it down to 000ppm?
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I would certainley stop using RO & use 2 x 11Ltr DI & have all the bennefits of pure water on demand. that is seriousley soft tap water!
I would estimate with a DI only set up you would only use at most 2 bags of resin per year. ;)
tony
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Not all glass will dry perfect with tds of 30.
Dave
You have a point there dave!!!
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bring it down mat to 000ppm, it basicly costs you nothing,
my water was 26 now suddenly gone up to 46 very strange,
so it can fluctuate up or down,
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I would certainley stop using RO & use 2 x 11Ltr DI & have all the bennefits of pure water on demand. that is seriousley soft tap water!
I would estimate with a DI only set up you would only use at most 2 bags of resin per year. ;)
tony
I bought a ro over a year ago now fo £70 off ebay. I only had to replace one of the filters and that was only £6.
So thats even cheaper than the 2 bags of resin you estimate I would go through in a year ;D
My 1000L tank takes ages to fill up through my ro. 4 days!!!!!
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bring it down mat to 000ppm, it basically costs you nothing,
I suppose it's better safe than sorry ;)
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Where are you ?
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You should know!!! ;D
You sent me a flyer. Remember? ;D
Inverness in the highlands
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I would certainley stop using RO & use 2 x 11Ltr DI & have all the bennefits of pure water on demand. that is seriousley soft tap water!
I would estimate with a DI only set up you would only use at most 2 bags of resin per year. ;)
tony
I bought a ro over a year ago now fo £70 off ebay. I only had to replace one of the filters and that was only £6.
So thats even cheaper than the 2 bags of resin you estimate I would go through in a year ;D
My 1000L tank takes ages to fill up through my ro. 4 days!!!!!
But just think, no 1000ltr tank & all gubbins that go with it. never run out of water, just top up from customers outside tap, just fill your tank in minutes from your own outside tap etc. All for about 150 quid per year!
You would probably only use 1 bag, my tds is 105ppm & i use 2 bags per year, so that would put it down to 70 quid + vat.
tony
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I agree.
I used to use a small di vessel from cleantech. I cant remember what size it was. (must be at least 11-15 inches tall)
Although my tds is low I still used to go through a fair bit of resin??? And I was always worried about the tds rising!
Any tips?
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I agree.
I used to use a small di vessel from cleantech. I cant remember what size it was. (must be at least 11-15 inches tall)
Although my tds is low I still used to go through a fair bit of resin??? And I was always worried about the tds rising!
Any tips?
Yes
use 2 vessels in sequense, use dowex resin not purolite that cleantech sell (its cheaper & lasts far longer).
Also there is a way of making resin last far longer nowadays, just giving the vessel a realy good shake up (mixing all the resin up inside) brings the tds back to 000 once it has risen to an unacceptable level, then repeat over time untill it has totaly spent.
I can guarantee you, doing the above that you'll be amazed at how long the resin lasts. you worried about the tds rising? thats a problem with purolite resin. once the tds hits 001 in no time it just shoots up 005, 010, 020 etc. where as dowex, once it hits 001 it stays there for ages, days, & then gently rises giving you plenty of time & notice to shake the vessels. ;)
tony
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Thanks tony.
I still have the 2 di vessels but I will need to get a sack of resin.
Why do I need 2? is 1 not enough. Where would I place the 2?
Do you use the hozelock fittings on the di bessel? I used to find they would leak ar would you just put the hose straight onto in and use a o ring or a jubilee clip?
Matthew
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My tds is 0nly 35ppm and i use an ro that i got when i got my first trolley system 18 months and never had to change the filters if i run out of water i can fill up at a customers tap and have only once had to change the resin in the vessel once and its a small one
i think i must have the purolite resin because when the ppm went up it shot up very quickly
so macmac you say the dowex resin lasts much better?
where would i get it then? as i always just use cleantech for my w/c stuff
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By using two vessels you can use every last drop of resin up. e.g.
The first vessel takes all the crap out so the second vessel is getting fed with 000tds water, so eventualy, when the shaking of the vessel no longer works (resin is totaly spent) the second vessel will start to rise. this is when you put the second vessel first (swap them round) & put new resin in the old first vessel & put that second. So now your new resin (second vessel) is getting fed with 001/002 tds water instead of direct tap water & you continue this process.
Where as before (with one vessel) when tds hit 001/002 etc you would have had to throw it away but now, it is pre-filtering your new resin vessel.
This process has at least halved my resin consumption.
my vessels are in van, sequense= tank - pump - vessel 1 - vessel - 2 (connected together with 2 inch of standard hose) - hosereel - pole.
Hozelok connectors on pump box & both vessels.
Dowex resin can be bought from other suppliers but i know streamsupplies sell it for 67 quid + vat.
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Fella`s,why when after youv`e used resin to bring the water down to zero reading,
It will start climbing up again after a period of time? I make my water thru` R.O.
And after I`ve made any quantity,once the water is made its 000ppm.I keep some
Of it for quite awhile but it still stays put at zero reading.Thanks
Lewis Doubtfire
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I would certainley stop using RO & use 2 x 11Ltr DI & have all the bennefits of pure water on demand. that is seriousley soft tap water!
I would estimate with a DI only set up you would only use at most 2 bags of resin per year. ;)
tony
I bought a ro over a year ago now fo £70 off ebay. I only had to replace one of the filters and that was only £6.
So thats even cheaper than the 2 bags of resin you estimate I would go through in a year ;D
My 1000L tank takes ages to fill up through my ro. 4 days!!!!!
I'm surprised you've bothered with RO but at least you know you can produce water pretty cheaply if RO is ever out of action.
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The problem is, is that there is a school of thought, brought on mainley by suppliers, that an RO is nessesary.
Just two examples above show that it is absolutley not.
RO systems bring far more troubles than DI only, for 1 they are more complex, hours to fill tank, waste water, more freezing components in winter, no pure water on demand etc. etc.
Now for some, with hard water, an RO IS nessesary, but for people with soft water, things have changed over the last couple of years & resin cost is not such an issue any more as explained above & there are far more bennefits to a DI only set-up. - Fill your tank in minutes, no waste water, top tank up from customers tap (no running out of water mid-day), no leaving a mains water supply on 24/7, no storage tanks, no booster pumps, no transfere hose etc.etc.
Yes, at the end of the day, to actually purify water an RO may work out cheaper in money terms, but come on, all the above bennefits for the grande sum of 150 quid per year :o It's a no brainer to me & my TDS tap water is 105ppm, i wouldn't dream of installing an RO.
tony
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Hi Macmac,
Whilst I agree with many of your thoughts you post, I feel that you have presented a very one sided opinion with your last comment. (which of course you are perfectly entitled to do!)
Here is my take on the situation:
I also have soft water at about 078ppm TDS. I have been using very simple RO units (200gpd un-pumped Ro-Man type) for about 6 years now. Whilst there are some issues to do with storing the product (1000ltr IBC) and transferring the product (submersible pump) these are easily worked with.
I have the RO running about 70% of the time into the IBC; we have 3 workers which work off of this set-up, filling into 2 different vehicles in the morning as they need it. We use on average about 2500 ltr of water a week.
This equates to about 288 weeks of water which equals about 720,000 of product water over the 6 years.
This has cost me over the last 6 years:
2x RO units = £350 (retail)
Pre-filters = £120 (retail)
Post filter resin = £15 (retail)
Total cost for 720,000 ltr = £485
Cost per litre = 0.0674 pence
If I had been using a DI only system this would have been my expenditure:
1 sack of resin would give me on average 6410 litres of product water with an input TDS of 078ppm.
I would have needed 112 sacks of resin at a retail price of £69 per sack this would have cost me £7750
Cost per litre 1.076 pence
These are the hard figures for my type of work load. In my case, who makes more - the retailer selling you 112 sacks of resin for £7750 or the retailer who sells you 2x cheap ro units and a few consumables for £485?
Bear in mind though that we have a fairly high usage rate due to the number of workers (3) and the type of work we do. The average worker would maybe only use 800-1000ltr a week and may also be in a softer water area.
Quite often DI systems are the only option and we always try to talk through a persons requirements before advising on any system. For an average worker the weekly cost would be only about £9 for running a DI system with 100ppm TDS. This equals about £468 per year, which for many is an acceptable and hassle free option.
When water usage rises then RO systems become more beneficial, but also bear in mind that many RO systems cost a lot more than 2x a 200gpd RO-Man unit!
Phew. :)
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Well done Alex.
I respect your views greatly.
Now, with your post in the equasion (spelling?) people can see both sides of the story & make up their mind to which system would suit them best.
Good, honest input from both sides of the fence ;)
I wouldn't name any supplier (but it's not you :-*) but i have known them supply a completely over the top, un-nessesary water purification system for people with very soft water & when explained to the said persons what they could have had instead they have been pi**ed off say the least & changed systems. In these cases it was money not well spent IMO.For one of these in particular, having an RO set-up was a great hassle in the first place because of the type of house he lived in.
So, It's a case of cost Vs convenience & simplicity sometimes i suppose.
Oh, & just a thought Alex, does the resin cost that you present represent using 2 x DI units & shaking the vessels to get maximum life from the resin ?
tony
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Just one other point, to be fair Alex, is that my advise is aimed at the average Joe, not someone with a massive round employing people & using hundreds of litres of water per day.
tony
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Alex
I have just weighed up that using my system of things you would only use 36 bags of resin in a 6 year period, so that would cost you 2,834 quid as oppose to the 7,750 that you quote. Which would be 9 quid per week. ???
Thats on your water usage, not mine. & thats on 105 tds input.
tony
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I'm DI up in Scotland and looked at the pro's and con's of having an ro. For me it was simple as time is money and TDS is very low up here so decided to go the DI route, plus I also had to fill up at customer's houses.
Originally I used 3 - 4 bags a year, but now have just exhausted my first bag this year since using it in Jan. I changed product which I now sell up here, the downside I expected my customers to be ordering more now but they are still on the original bag. One info I have passed onto them is if you look after your resin it will last longer.
Using the 2 vessel idea is a very good idea your resin will last even longer.
I think it all depends on your TDS level what method is best for you. My usage is around 84,000 ltr a year and my cost for resin £130 a year which is not bad.
This works for me but may not for others.
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my figures are very close to yours also doug. :)
tony
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I have a tds of 34 here, you can use a hosepipe with tap water to clean your windows without spots!!!
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I have a tds of 34 here, you can use a hosepipe with tap water to clean your windows without spots!!!
Where luke?
tony
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Hi Macmac,
I think that between us we have offered a good option of views for everyone. I think that your 2 resin vessels system is probably more efficient than the single vessel figures that I was using. (500,000/TDS=litres per 25litres resin)
I personally have never used a twin DI system myself. In fact it was only this week that I used for the first time, a DI vessel for my own work. I have a converted chapel where you cannot get a vehicle to, but it does have an outside tap and soft water. I made up two short hose reels and an 11ltr DI vessel and walked to it. Worked a treat.
If you were looking at spending £6000 plus on an RO system then the figures would not be quite the same as it would take a very long time for the average user to spend that much on resin (about 13 years on 100ppm TDS).
Of course if you are in a hard water area and a lot of our customers are, then purifying 300+ ppm TDS with resin would be extortionate, RO is the only option.
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its Wales