Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Londoner on June 16, 2007, 10:47:42 am
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I've been out leafletting in the past month, responses are well down on what I would have expected at this time of the year.
Also, one of my customers phoned me up last week. "Hello this is Mrs McCabe from Central Avenue. I don't want you to clean my windows anymore. Thank you"
"Oh" says I "weren't you satisfied with them?"
"No no, its not that........." but she wouldn't say what it was. She sounded increasingly embarrassed before she put the phone down. She didn't have to tell me I had already guessed
Now I know that there have been a couple of Eastern European blokes canvassing around Central Avenue. Other customers have told me.
Their sales technique is to ask how much the customer is paying now then fall about laughing when they are told and say "thats far too much, we'll do it for £8 "
It looks like they have had some success with Mrs McCabe .
The trouble is that in an area where the going rate is £12 to £15 they are putting the idea into people's minds that they could be paying £8. Even if they don't nick the customer they are doing damage.
My own house has been leafletted again this week by someone called Tom and Jay. I don't know them so they may be a new startup. We had another leaflet from somebody else a few months ago. In all the years we have lived here we only ever had one leaflet in the past.
Everything I see suggests the competition is getting tougher.
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Vince
Keep one eye on the competition and keep ahead of them.
If they are all in cars buy a van, maybe get it sign written.
Maybe get a uniform.
Think smarter, there is room for all prices in this trade.
Just look after what you are doing and do it well and you will be ok.
My personal goal was to become as professional as i could, we now wear uniforms, got a sign written van with my trade logos, proper business cards etc.
It seems to be paying off , only yesterday i had a phone call off a huge nursing home because they liked the look of my set up, I asked them if they already had quotes , her reply was "well theres window cleaners and there is window cleaner"
Basicaly you have to decide what is going to give you the edge over your competition.
Dave
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Dave
Yes I think you are right but it still means its more of a struggle.
Vince
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This is weird!!!! I was just cleaning around my desk and I came across one of your flyer's you posted to me. I think over a year ago! ;)
These boys wont last long. Summer cleaners. As soon as the cold weather comes you will be inundated with calls.
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I agree with dave on the most part, the trouble is, is that we all want things cheaper, including our customers. Some will be loyal & stay, some may not. The higher your work is priced then maybe the more chance you have of loosing it. the problem is with the eastern european invasion is that many trades may end up being forced into working for peanuts, just like them.
I am not personaly affected by this where i live but i do genuinley feel for anyone who is. Only employers can benefit from cheap labour, not us sole traders.
tony
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Tony
If people are paying thousands for a service then they will shop around.
The good thing about window cleaning it is a cheap service and the price you pay usually reflects the quality of the work you get.
I am dearer than most of my competition, but the good thing is customers tend to be loyal and think well he is dear but he does a brilliant job, and thats what most want.
Another thing in a customers eyes is it is better the devil you know and they will stick with you forever if you treat them right.
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Thats a fair statement dave, i think you are right. (we all hope so anyway) :D
tony
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If you win on price you will lose on price, any halfwit can win business by dropping the price even lower, but they will be the worst sort of customer and not the loyal type that you can build a sustainable business on - in any trade.
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i slightly disagree
when the easten europeans get in on the game, they drive the prices down, it then becomes the norm to have it done for less money
look at the building / contruction game, in london the only staff builders can employ these days are easten europeans, this is just down to price
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but on the other hand, i really hope your right ;)
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Out of interest Vince if your Mrs McCabe phones you up in say 3 months time and wants you back because the other wc wasn't any good would you take her back?
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vince
, i also have customers in central ave etc and havent had any cancellations lately , and hopefully wont , my prices are the same as you qouted £13 - £15 .
i have also seen this tom and jay effort at a leaflet , but dont know who they are !
lloyd ( lsb window cleaners )
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Hi Vince,
I live in Hayes not far from you there are lots of window cleaners including east europeans in this area, I find that most of my customers do not change to someone cheaper, but you will always get the odd one or two.
I started in 1984 and the game has changed over the past few years not only are there more window cleaners about but the water fed poles are making it easy to start window cleaning.
When I started with a bucket and sponge all those years ago I had to find out how to clean windows by trial and error, I did pick up a few tips from others but not many. It was hard work, but that was the beauty of it, it was hard work, lots of people started window cleaning but found it hard work, and were unable to master the technique and would give it up after a few weeks, plus they did not feel it was a proper job. I noticed on this forum a while back someone discribed window cleaners as "low social status" I think a lot of people think that way.
It does concern me the way things are going with water fed poles.
I feel a lot of the companys selling water fed poles are promoting the amount of money to be made particulary to new start ups.
A few years ago it was carpet cleaning and the fortune that could be made, at first it was good and you could earn a fair living, but after about 5 years the market was flooded with carpet cleaners. People were doing it for next to nothing. You must have had a leaflet " 50% discount lounge £9.00 stairs £9.00 " etc etc. I may be wrong but will domestic window cleaning go the same way, its happining in the commerical sector.
I am not knocking companys that sell wfp or the people who use wpf, they have busines to run, but I do feel it will have a huge impact on all our business.
At present we can still charge a premium for our services, thats trad or wfp, but with companys, franchises, and sole traders looking to employ and train people to use wfp, new start ups thinking they are going to make a fortune plus wfp cleaning quicker and business needing more clients, it will get harder, and our prices will be affected.
On the bright side there will be lots of secondhand wfp equipmet for sale, in a few years, and a lot of the new start ups do not have the technique to clean windows inside, so there will be plenty of commerical inside work available.
I would not worry too much just try to, if not ahead of the game stay with it.
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As a business opportunity window cleaning has a very low or quite low barrier to entry. I bought an as new Scudo for 7k plus vat, signed it for £200, spent 2k with with Cleantech for the kit. I spent £250 on trad gear, four sets of embroidered navy polos and jumpers and work trousers another £150. A ladder stay £25, a roof rack £200. A website, £80 for frontpage, £50 for hosting. Call divert from my house phone £1.74 per month. Top secret killer leaflets, I print myself in black ink and refill the cartridges myself with a syringe. What's that 10k? There was a period of experimentation working trad to see if I liked it first.
Add to this that the service industry is and has expanded massively (partly due to what they call dual income syndome, he earns £30k and so does she, not that unusual these days, with the result that with £60k coming in they don't want or need to do cleaning, ironing, or mowing the lawn, and send out for pizza and chinese two nights a week). It gets worse though, the best time to get involved is during an industry's period of change, and this is occuring not only due to WFP, but methods of collection such as internet payment, and marketing being easier and more effective due to computers and the internet. It's not as if George has made our life any harder, and this site has all the other answers.
I looked a dominos (270k) and Subway (180k) signs express (180k) franchises. They all involved selling my house.
It's true Vince that this is a crowded market place, and it is becoming more crowded, but I bet that also you are making more money that you were seven years ago. And there are sectors that have it worse. Manufacturing has all gone to China, and retailing (which is my other business) is under pressure from several directions.
I too, after years of nothing have had several window cleaning leaflets through my door in the last few months.(i've been knocked twice about dustbin cleaning) I count at least six that I know of on the estate on which I live (about four hunded houses). When you see this and the vans driving around in such abundance it is a bit scary. For once though I agree entirely with Dave St Ives and the other excellent posted comments above.
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I think there are a lot of good points being made here. Window cleaning is seeing an influx of new people who probably don't want to be window cleaners but are being displaced from their present jobs or trades. They are probably a bit desperate which makes them all the more dangerous.
We all know whats happening in the building and manufacturing sectors. All those people have to go somewhere to find work and window cleaning is just about the easiest business to start up without a lot of risk. Its definitely happening and I have no choice but to go along with it.
I think David in St Ives has made some good points but it won't hold back the flood entirely.
Over a period of time I can forsee a gradual but constant errosion of my business as things get more competitive. Although good customers remain loyal its true nothing lasts for ever.
Sean's example of what happened in carpet cleaning is a little too close for comfort.
The big danger though is that prices will start to go backwards as they have in the building trade. At the moment we have a fairly stable pricing structure and like Rain Water says prices have gone up. That could change when we get to the dog eat dog scenario. Apart from prices what is there to negotiate with?
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from the feedback from my customers they
prefer like the way that I do things
(a) I give a date for each clean (it works for me ;) )
(b) Most customers pay via internet banking and like it that way.
(c) I provide if required my Company registration documents, VAT details, insurance details and driving licence as proof of my identity.
(d) both my office and mobile numbers, you would be suprised how many w/c do not even give their names let alone phone or contact details.
I would like to think that when competition comes along and it will, I might have a few unique selling points combined with a good, regular & honest service to keep my customers...but I am well aware that I might not.
We have had a few documentaries here about 'rogue w/c' which scared me along with alot of people here in Holland and as such alot of people are aware of the problems some w/c can give.
I have one customer that has moved from Amsterdam (city) to here (the countryside) and told me that the area window cleaner will turn up and say something along the lines of ' we can clean your windows each and every three weeks', should you decline either the price or frequency you would be told that 'that is the deal' and that only he is the only w/c works that area so it is take it or leave it....
So trying to see into the future I am trying to mould myself and my potentially expanding company into the beast I want it to be.
So is it getting harder...I am finding it hard already but it will get harder this I know.
I have also noticed that the response rate from leaflets is down to what I normally recieve but with that said I have had 2 customers calls me in response from my leaflets and later phone to say a window clean has called at their house so for me not to bother coming for a quote...so there you go canvassing works.
Cheers
Dave.
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Guys im with you 100% but lets not sit here with the what ifs and that. Stay positve or we might aswell all give up now
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Just as point of intrest.. last week I stood and watched a couple of workers for a very big commcial cleaning company here cleaning a large 3 storey flat complex using wfp...now they had all the gear, lovely new van....large tanks, really nice carbon fibre poles and yet when I looked at the windows they had some many ling drips I was able to clearly see them whilst driving past so much in fact that I just had to go back and take another look and all I can say is its all down to the skill and effort put in by the operator not so much the technology....
It put me in a good mood...because if they are that bad and that is a standard that is accpeted...I might as well just start using 200tds tank water... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
cheers
Dave.
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It is not worth getting upset with the new "Summer String of W/Cleaners" living in Somerset we have a lot of EU workers in the area and YES THEY are trying to do windows on the side from there other jobs. It is great watching them do a house for £6.00 off of ladders leaving it a mess and taking them 2 hours......I got it back after just one month and oh yes my price went from £18.00 to £20.00 ,,,,,,,,not my fault a price increase was do!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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We started in Joburg SA last year and dare I say that we presently have no competition with WFP's
Our buisness is really begining to grow now mainly from referals (domestic) and commercial (internet)
We are quite lucky I suppose due to not having suppliers of kit, hence everything is iimported.
Another bonus for us is we do not have eastern europeans and will never have as there are so many
people unemployed here.
Im sure at a later stage we will get competition but im sure we will be well sorted by the time this happens. I believe Ionics have just asigned an agent in CapeTown but with the exchange rate the cost of such kit must be horrific.
People here are very price sensative so the best of luck to them.
Finally Joburg is bigger than Birmingham , with the non stop building projects I hope and think the Skys the limit.
Ps please no job applications, the majority of you are the wrong colour. ;D
All the best
Colin Yates
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It can only get harder simply because this is a PUBLIC not closed member forum and so many window cleaners love to brag of their new benchmark achievable earnings for a day which is encouraging more newbie people to start up window cleaning using WFP now that they realise they don't have to climb ladders to do the job. What do you expect, of course it's going to get harder because you are encouraging competition!!!
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easyclean well said mate. :-X this site is not a secret! its open to everyone.
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I notice that new enquiries have got a lot fewer over the past year. Also, referrals don't seem to happen very much these days. The latter may be because I've had a lot of my customers for a long(ish) time so any referrals from them happened some years back.
I think it's time to start freshening things up again and have a look around for some new work. At least I am not desperate like when I first started in '91 so I can price well.
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I've been out leafletting in the past month, responses are well down on what I would have expected at this time of the year.
Also, one of my customers phoned me up last week. "Hello this is Mrs McCabe from Central Avenue. I don't want you to clean my windows anymore. Thank you"
"Oh" says I "weren't you satisfied with them?"
"No no, its not that........." but she wouldn't say what it was. She sounded increasingly embarrassed before she put the phone down. She didn't have to tell me I had already guessed
Now I know that there have been a couple of Eastern European blokes canvassing around Central Avenue. Other customers have told me.
Their sales technique is to ask how much the customer is paying now then fall about laughing when they are told and say "thats far too much, we'll do it for £8 "
It looks like they have had some success with Mrs McCabe .
The trouble is that in an area where the going rate is £12 to £15 they are putting the idea into people's minds that they could be paying £8. Even if they don't nick the customer they are doing damage.
My own house has been leafletted again this week by someone called Tom and Jay. I don't know them so they may be a new startup. We had another leaflet from somebody else a few months ago. In all the years we have lived here we only ever had one leaflet in the past.
Everything I see suggests the competition is getting tougher.
There have always been amateurs chancing there arms at window cleaning, if they stick at it they soon realise that they have charge realistic prices if they want a long term, legitimate business. I read an article recently about a "polish" builder in greenford, he admitted he didn't have any real qualifications apart from assisting his father who was a plumber in poland. he started off using his polishness as a selling point for his services, polishness being a euphemism for "cheap", but once he got his foot in the door he started hiking up his prices. he had realised that it cost a lot off money to live in london, he didn't see why he should work for less than any one else.
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Another point, this is what the people of this country voted for,a bit like turkeys voting for Christmass, with further intergration into the E.U. ahead it won't get any better.
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Stop whineing and moaning and get on with it. Don't you think other sectors in this country are under pressure too.
Most of you if you are unskilled and over forty left to fend for yourselfs in the emploment market would, if you were lucky enough to get an interview be looking at jobs for six pounds an hour.
Notice that on that parade of shops near where you live or your local high street every time a shop closes it reopens with A4 consent, and reemerges as either a sandwhich shop or a takeaway of some kind.This is not happening just by you it is happening everywhere.
The number and type of business's that can make it out there is shrinking rapidly due to supermarket domination, out of town shopping, internet, parking costs and yellow lines etc. Imagine if you've had a chip shop for years and then a pizza a kentucky and a sandwhich bar open up nearby. That is what is happening as people dive into the diminshing number of opportunities. There has to be limit to how many of us can earn a living making sandwhichs though.
I made the decision to start a window cleaning business independently of this forum. I found this forum when I was researching the market and have stuck with it.
The good news is that despite the low barriers to entry and possible rewards sometimes alluded to on this forum the brightest and the best often dismiss us as a business immediatly.This may have something to do with the perception of low social status ,the idea that the slightest blip in the economy and the window cleaner is the first person to be dropped, and the fact that many weeks if not months of hard work are required to biuld an acceptable wage.
So you're in a great business which is expanding rapidly, and fortunatly overlooked by many smart operators. We should think ourselves lucky.
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Put it in another perspective, my turnover is growing 25% year on year.
When it stops growing i will worry then and not before.
Dave
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Put it in another perspective, my turnover is growing 25% year on year.
When it stops growing i will worry then and not before.
Dave
25 - 30% looks like being my turnover growth from last year to this as well. It's much better than it looks though because it is being achieved in a LOT less work time.
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Funny that you should mention the unmentionable on the other post Shiner. I do mention it and mostly they do want 8
weeks. Not sure if this is a trend or an own goal by me. I asked Vince Green about this and he said it was a trend and not to blame myself as he still gets it wrong.He also said that pre George it was more of a problem.
I remember you or Tosh saying that it used to be everytwo weeks when you pushed a pram with your ladders on top around your local area, when we all lived in terraces and had smoking chimneys.
The quality of my work(accounts) is good otherwise and I have a high takeup. Maybe thats why. Best not disscus it on here as it puts ideas into others heads, but I just thought I'd mention it to you.Part of my strategy is sustainabiltiy, and these are people are not going to cancel even if they are on good prices.
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I have notice that a few wcs are now employing these from other countries..and not being funny but I have seen the prices some of you pay your men...These people arnt daft, they will be in this industry in no time especialy with the big boasts. I knew blokes who never even showed the wife their pay packets. descresion is the better part of vallor.
Who is going to pay for some one eles's foreighn holiday and have a week in skeggy because they only get £60 a day and put another £100 on for their employer. I'm one of them >:( Why should someone sit in the cabin whilst I'm laid in water breathing dust and shoveling coal? Disneyland here I come :D :D If we all knew the winning lottery numbers then the payouts would be small. So lets be wise in all our buisness dealings. Licencing and training and keep the oppertunists out. If it cost you 10k to set up rather than 70 quid for a ladder, 90p for some fairy and an orenge bucket from B&Q then we may have some protection to out livleyhood and our childrens livleyhood
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Ive just sat down and read this entire topic from start to finish and it's just exactly what been on my mind for ages!! Im bricking it from the point of view of polish workers who are over the moon to work for minimum wage thinking 15 per hour what most of us wouldn't spit on is all their christmas's come at once!
Im in the north east and the polish invasion hasn't hit us too hard yet but going back to the comment about really smart people discovering window cleaning am I the only one who has had nightmare about a major brand such as Tesco launching into window cleaning and making a national franchise type operation of it? Im sure that with the right marketing and tv advertising someone like Tesco could absolutely clean up (excuse the pun!). Infact I'm definite that Tesco won't have another business with a higher profit margin than window cleaning.
Sorry to mention this hope my fears are ill founded, don't have nightmares do sleep well!!! :'(
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One thing not mentioned are the recent rises in interest rates.
I think the heavily mortgaged set are just beginning to feel the pinch and dropping w/c. (I've had two younger couples cancel in the last six months who have had first babies and so their income must be tight.)
On the other hand the "fifty/sixty-plus" home owners are often financially well off. Their savings are attracting more interest and lifespans are increasing. I've had a few of these come on board.
I'm still gaining more than I lose and am still looking to drop poorer paying work at the end of the summer.
But there is a change in the air but I'm not quite sure what is causing it.
No obvious Eastern Europeans encroaching on my round yet.
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Business is business and we will all experience highs and lows along the way (even if we don't want to admit to the lows ;D)
As with any industry you get back what you put in and you evolve if you want to! Competition is good for your business, it keeps you focused and on your toes. Too many industries have sat back thinking that "this will always be the same" to be hit very hard, when fresh ideas come about. Want to hold on to your customers.....offer something different to other WC's, be it price wise, phone calls or whatever. Speak to your customers, don't be afraid to ask "to improve my service to you, what ideas would you have?" Be original, this will work with some customers, but not all. Expect to lose some to competition, but sit back and think when you have taken new customers on, how many times have you heard, "I am uphappy with the WC I have at present, that is why I have called on you!" Keep positive and keep taking your business where you want to take it. ;D