Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: bazooka on May 26, 2007, 10:21:55 am
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ive been cleaning window 17 yrs and wfp 3 and i can not see the how it can be justified that wfp it is any more profit making than trad cleaning i can possible make 20 pound more a day with a wfp so with all the other cost involved water sewage electric extra weight in van it does seem 2 be not worth the extra hassle other than the safety aspect i can see the benifits of cleaning the the second floor building but other than that it seems 2 just a lazy way to get in to cleaning windows
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ive been cleaning window 17 yrs and wfp 3 and i can not see the how it can be justified that wfp it is any more profit making than trad cleaning i can possible make 20 pound more a day with a wfp so with all the other cost involved water sewage electric extra weight in van it does seem 2 be not worth the extra hassle other than the safety aspect i can see the benifits of cleaning the the second floor building but other than that it seems 2 just a lazy way to get in to cleaning windows
Some days my extra turnover isn't so great either. However there are other days when I vcan halve the time on certain jobs compared to how long I took with ladders. I am building to have more of the latter type of day. I reckon that over a 3 year period it will be possible to double my turnover - or close to it.
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If you are building rounds that are suitable only for your wfp equipment, what happens to the windows that are best suited to trad work? Do you have other window cleaners working those?
It sounds like there would be great opportunities for trad and wfp businesses to share out the work between them and everyone is happy.
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If you are building rounds that are suitable only for your wfp equipment, what happens to the windows that are best suited to trad work? Do you have other window cleaners working those?
It sounds like there would be great opportunities for trad and wfp businesses to share out the work between them and everyone is happy.
I would go further than that.
Like a lot of window cleaners I do have some low priced work which seems to have stuck to me over the years. Maybe W/Cers should get together to swap their poorer paid work. A customer will often be prepared to pay a new W/Cer more money but not pay their existing one a decent rate of increase.
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it shoudn't be that you are either a "trad" wc or a "wfp" wc. Any business needs to diversify and offer alternatives and be flexible. So for example you have 5 x £25.00 properties in one area that can be wfp and there are 3 more £25.00 properties in that same area that warrant trad methods......let someone else have them, just because you don't trad? ::) and vise versa......Think not. Again trad, wfp whatever, are just tools of your trade.
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I agree with Helen up to a point. But I am sure there are many trad window cleaners that are happy doing it that way, and wfp cleaners that don't wish to do trad.
Cost will also be a major factor for some. Trad can be set up at minimal cost, but even the most basic set up for wfp is going to cost some.
In these situations, why not form an alliance with another cleaner and share out the jobs?
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Anyone who says WFP is no quicker than trad is using it on the wrong type of jobs end of story,i can easily earn what 2 blokes earn off ladders on my own.
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Anyone who says WFP is no quicker than trad is using it on the wrong type of jobs end of story,i can easily earn what 2 blokes earn off ladders on my own.
Here here, when i changed to wfp i knocked a day a week off my round and got rid of a muppet that worked for me, so if you cant clean quicker with your pole go home and practice because you obviously ARENT DOING IT PROPERLEY !!!!!!!!!!!!
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ill also agree there
i used to work with some muppet off ladders, then we went wfp me doing ups and him trailing doing downs
i got rid of him, and now i earn double what both of us used to do off ladders and wfp ups
as said, sorry but your wrong
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The work that used to take me 6 weeks I now do in 4. Naturally there is a higher outlay too though but overall I reckon my profit per hour is rather higher.
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The thing is what mug wants to go up ladders all the time these days when theres no need to,i know the job has always been done off ladders but things are moving on fast.If you can see the band wagon that normally means you`ve missed it.
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yawn yawn, here we go again !. wonder who will be working if drought orders come in this summer, ( legally that is ).
I trad more than wfp and enjoy ladder work, no hose to drag just pick up your ladder and move on.
Pick jobs that your happy with and there are to many variables with wfp as has been stated on this forum. If it wernt for all the problems regarding wfp this forum would have been shut down long ago.
If you have the SKILL to trad then you will have no problems and some say if you can't get to grips with trad them get a brush.
Oh and NWH, ladder guys are no mugs mate, and wfp might be faster on some jobs but it's not all about quantity it's about quality.
Regards
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BORING, YAWN, BORING , YAWN, YAWN YAWN.
i'm 100 times quicker wfp than trad, when i was trad i was earning 20 quid a day :o 12 hours too, knackered, nearly dead at end of each day. But now i'm wfp i'm earning 6 grand a day!!!! & i start at 9am & finnish at 10am. yes, thats right, 6 grand per hour, wfp really is that good, i couldn't possibly use a ladder anymore, daddy would kill me :o
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
me thinks there's more truth in bazookas initial post.
tony
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Anyone who says WFP is no quicker than trad is using it on the wrong type of jobs end of story,i can easily earn what 2 blokes earn off ladders on my own.
It could be said that I'm using it on some of the wrong sort of jobs I suppose but these changes have to be transitional. If I had ditched all my inappropriate work as soon as I started WFP, it would have left me very short of work. Better to do it in stages I find.
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macman, 6 grand an hour ? wouldnt get out of bed for that mate, you are doin it all wrong. Get a sponge and you will never look back. ( IT'S THE FUTURE ) ;) ;)
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You all seem to have missed the real point, WHO CARES? I don't clean windows for a living, I collect money door to door for a living. All that stuff with the windows is a sort of decoy to soften the customers up and make them feel good about giving me the dough.
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I know a trad and he consistently turns in £1000 a week. Has been doing it for years.
Has looked at wfp and does not like the inconsistency of results. So he is staying up the ladder!
I like the idea of wfp. Good for those,cant get to places.
Good for commercial.
I am looking to get a small system as i can see the benifits.
My view ..... keep an open mind. Tec in our line of work is changing quickly however what % of wfp boys and girls only can turn in £1000 consistently a week. Be honest.
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The thing that I don't understand about selling the concept of wfp to customers is the line: " It will take 2 or 3 visits before your windows will look good."
If I take a pair of trousers to the dry cleaners I expect the curry I spilt down them to be gone when I collect them, not be told: "Well it'll take a few more goes before it's all out."
And this is where trad scores above wfp, unless you're a crap w/c the customer gets good results on clean 1.
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The thing that I don't understand about selling the concept of wfp to customers is the line: " It will take 2 or 3 visits before your windows will look good."
If I take a pair of trousers to the dry cleaners I expect the curry I spilt down them to be gone when I collect them, not be told: "Well it'll take a few more goes before it's all out."
And this is where trad scores above wfp, unless you're a crap w/c the customer gets good results on clean 1.
The "2 or 3 cleans" bit isn't strictly true though. It CAN happen that way. If the first clean is done thoroughly with loads of rinsing and going around twice, then the results will often be acceptable at the first attempt.
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If it works on first attempt then fair enough the job you've been paid to do has been completed to an acceptable standard. But do wfp guys still charge full price if it's obviously going to be a 2-3 clean before it's good?
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If it works on first attempt then fair enough the job you've been paid to do has been completed to an acceptable standard. But do wfp guys still charge full price if it's obviously going to be a 2-3 clean before it's good?
3rd clean is rare. 2nd clean is more usual. I charge 50% more (usually) for a first clean and that doesn't usually fully cover my extra time. I certainly wouldn't charge less.
It could be argued that I'm charging more for a clean that may not be top standard. However, it's also true that I'm charging more for a clean that takes a lot longer.
This isn't such a bad thing really as it can sometimes weed out the ones that aren't genuine about having an ongoing service.
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ive given this a lot of thought now i have wfp, and i think every one is right. On most commercial you will be quicker. On fiddly houses you may be quicker on some. It all depends. I have found im quicker than many wc's on a ladder hence im finding wfp not as quick as many are. If your slower on a ladder as many are (and there is nowt wrong with that) then your turn over when switching across will be greatly increased.
Dont want to squash good debate but i think it is as simple as that!!
How else could some on houses be doubling thier income and others not noticing that much difference?
I have noticed im doing 3 upstairs windows of a ladder to anothers 1 window before. Now give him a pole and he will no doubt be going twice as fast as before, but give me a pole and the increase may not be much more.
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On most commercial you will be quicker.
Only medium and large commercial, or ones with fiddly windows.
Not on simple shop fronts.
I'd leave wfp standing on shops.
Way too much bother to keep moving the kit around.
Much quicker to squeegee.
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ive given this a lot of thought now i have wfp, and i think every one is right. On most commercial you will be quicker. On fiddly houses you may be quicker on some. It all depends. I have found im quicker than many wc's on a ladder hence im finding wfp not as quick as many are. If your slower on a ladder as many are (and there is nowt wrong with that) then your turn over when switching across will be greatly increased.
Dont want to squash good debate but i think it is as simple as that!!
How else could some on houses be doubling thier income and others not noticing that much difference?
I have noticed im doing 3 upstairs windows of a ladder to anothers 1 window before. Now give him a pole and he will no doubt be going twice as fast as before, but give me a pole and the increase may not be much more.
I thinkwhat you've written roughly mirrors my own experience. I reckon my speed trad cleaning was about average. Once I got used to WFP my turnover has increased around 25%. If I filled the gaps created it would be a great deal more.
I do wonder though if someone who was very fast with trad would also be very fast with WFP once they got used to it. I prefer to plod a bit myself as my 50 year old body isn't as flexible as it once was. Can still earn OK though.
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yes i take all yr points on board and some make sense i spend possible another hour and a half sorting water system out for morning when i should be doing my paper work we all cant afford the bees knees in technology as for the guy who says he can earn double his money with a pole over trad he must of been pretty crap at it hense the move 2 wfp yes u may say that im not very good with a wfp but it aint rocket science is it so i must be a good trad cleaning ;)i
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yes i take all yr points on board and some make sense i spend possible another hour and a half sorting water system out for morning when i should be doing my paper work we all cant afford the bees knees in technology as for the guy who says he can earn double his money with a pole over trad he must of been pretty crap at it hense the move 2 wfp yes u may say that im not very good with a wfp but it aint rocket science is it so i must be a good trad cleaning ;)i
Well if I filled in all the work gaps created by WFP, my turnover would probably double what it was when I worked trad and I think I was rather better than useless. Still, you're entitled to your opinion even though it has been given without full knowledge of all the facts. I was slowed down for a number of years by illness which I got rid of the year before I started with WFP.
I wouldn't be comparing like for like businesses either. I price new work much higher than I used to, have been gradually "losing" the underpaid work, and won't put up with customers who mess me about too much. It's not too difficult doubling the turnover over several years if you come from a place of poor health and using ladders to a place of good health and using WFP. The doubling effect won't happen this year but I see no reason why it won't happen in my next accounting year (starting October 1st '07).
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I price new work much higher than I used to, have been gradually "losing" the underpaid work, and won't put up with customers who mess me about too much.
Shiner, assuming the potential was there to begin with would this not increase anybodys turnover regardless of their work method
To paraphrase the old saying "a bad worker blames his tools" a good worker shouldn't credit his tools too much
My guess is that your increased profits is more down to you than wfp or trad
maybe going wfp gave you the push you needed to raise your prices but if the market couldn't withstand those prices it wouldn't matter what your work method
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Helo Pat,
There is less effort with wfp which allows you to work longer or faster, its up to you.
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Jeff your bang on there,it allows you to work a lot lot longer days no doubt.When working trad there comes a point in the day when you`ve just had enough knackerd,with the pole it is so easy to go and do a few extra houses a day on top of what you would normally do.I used to do a house of ladders where i would do a third floor window off the ladder while being footed,i can now do the whole front of that house in the same time it used to take me to do that one window give or take a minute or so.
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Helo Pat,
There is less effort with wfp which allows you to work longer or faster, its up to you.
I agree, I was just noting that what the shiner did was as much to do with raising his prices and dropping the badly paid stuff as it was to do with changing to wfp
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Jeff your bang on there,it allows you to work a lot lot longer days no doubt.When working trad there comes a point in the day when you`ve just had enough knackerd,with the pole it is so easy to go and do a few extra houses a day on top of what you would normally do.I used to do a house of ladders where i would do a third floor window off the ladder while being footed,i can now do the whole front of that house in the same time it used to take me to do that one window give or take a minute or so.
well either the whole front of that house only has 2 more windows or you were a really, really slow trad cleaner! ;)
(or maybe bending the truth a little :-*)
tony
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If you cannot increase your wage by 30% with wfp over trad then hang your head in shame. I hear posts like this now and again and wonder why do w/cleaners find it so hard to increase their wage.
If your not earning more or earning the same wage in far less time with wfp then your doing it WRONG. Or your so disorganized its your own fault.
I earn far more on my own with wfp then I ever made trad w/c when there were 2 of us doing my round. And for the record I was BL***Y Fast as a trad w/c. My ladder speed as never been matched by any w/c I have seen.
My earnings last year increased by 50%, and I was allready on a good wack as a Trad w/c. For me their is no comparison. I am not alone the vast majorty of my freinds have switched to wfp and they have increased their wage by a healthy wack. My mate went playing golf Friday afternoon because he earned £120.00 in 2 & 1/2 Hours with wfp. If he was Trad it would of been a 7 hour day.
Wake up and smell the Coffee.
Nel.
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I think first clean results are good enough. We have worked through those problems now. Most of the defects caused on first cleans was grime being disturbed from theframes above the window. Provided you pay proper attention to that its OK
Having been a trad cleaner on and off for thirty years and a WFP cleaner for just over one I can see no contest.
WFP is so much easier. My Dad used to say "If you want to find the easiest way to do a job give it to the laziest bloke" I am that lazy bloke.
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Helo Pat,
There is less effort with wfp which allows you to work longer or faster, its up to you.
I agree, I was just noting that what the shiner did was as much to do with raising his prices and dropping the badly paid stuff as it was to do with changing to wfp
Sort of. Where I have noticed the real time saving benefit is on my larger jobs. The smallish to average jobs are often a bit quicker. However, if I need to get the ladder off to get on a flat roof. that can mean no time saving. I don't mind that so long as it's only a few jobs and so long as they are priced OK.