Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Davew on April 08, 2007, 10:46:14 pm
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I have a certain brand of carbon pole (water fed)that would seem to be much cheaper if bought through an angling outlet. I have thought of making a spare carbon pole from second hand poles available on the internet. What I would seem to need is a stiff but light carp pole with a very strong top section. I have come across "margin" poles too that would seem to be used for heavy big fish? not being an angler I'm not sure of the differences. Also what would a "super taper" top section be? This would only be a back up or experiment so I have no intention of parting with vast amounts of money in fact it could end up being only fifteen feet in length for light domestic work.
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Dave check out Matt's site, I think all the info for that question is proberly on there. http://d.co.uk
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A margin pole attributes is exactly what you are looking for, also look for the term "hit and hold". The Browning Aggressor comes with parallel extensions but is a bit pricy, for everyday use though if you find anything better £ for Lb than a Ron Thompson Reload, let me know. You can use any pole out there, they are all just about stiff enough,- just that I already looked. ;) "Commercial fishery pole " Is another good term.
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Thanks Jeff I have been reading your exploits on Matts site. It's just that the particular brands you mention just didn't happen to come up on any second hand searches (looking for really cheap here). As I already have a carbon pole I thought I could interchange sections in future if I broke any. Names like Grim Reaper, Nebula etc. if you get my drift. When I've used my carbon pole I hate the thought of ever having to get my glassfibre one off the van it's like wrestling with a log! Even using the top section on it's own is a joy even compared to a small extender.
Blimey Jeff, i've just looked up the Thompson pole thats cheap!
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Davew,
I followed jeffs advice and tried this out,
http://www.fishtec-coarse.co.uk/ProductDetailInfoWithoutOptions.cfm?ID=FC-ZENSPOLE&ShopRef=40&Prime=Yes&shopListRec=30517
For around £26 delivered it really is a good pole and so light, quite tough too, way more than a true CF, it's around 20ft and less bend than the unger 5 x 1.25m (20ft) section pole I used to use.
For a trial into modular it takes some beating.
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Umm throws up some big questions over some of the prices we are being charged elsewhere.
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I dont see why , afterall theres a lot of R&D involved in getting products ready for the market place
chris
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Some r&d sure but at the end of the day most wfp products are only adapted from dirt cheap household items and reworked angling poles. Have a look at some of the brushes on the market. I don't want to name particular suppliers as some I am very gratefull to for their help and advice and they are fellow cleaners too. What I am saying is that with a litle research there can be huge savings made. just look at the ro units being offered, the price of speedlining etc etc.
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Davew,
I followed jeffs advice and tried this out,
http://www.fishtec-coarse.co.uk/ProductDetailInfoWithoutOptions.cfm?ID=FC-ZENSPOLE&ShopRef=40&Prime=Yes&shopListRec=30517
For around £26 delivered it really is a good pole and so light, quite tough too, way more than a true CF, it's around 20ft and less bend than the unger 5 x 1.25m (20ft) section pole I used to use.
For a trial into modular it takes some beating.
Hi Davew, Alex is out working but I've just phoned him to check my facts!
The above pole is for a fibre glass pole, not a carbon pole. Alex says its a great cheap pole if you are happy with fibre glass, it being 3x as heavy and 3x as flexible. It also jams together easily as a past time!
You do get what you pay for. The retail price for the top section of a carbon fibre pole without the strengthening is £69.99 from a fishing shop retailer, the next section down is £60.99 and the next section down from that is £69.99. That's the price from a fishing shop retailer. Obviously with that price you don't get the gooseneck, hose, brush, insulation, adjustable bung, joint treatment, 'joint-stops', strengthened top section and instruction manual. :)
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Some r&d sure but at the end of the day most wfp products are only adapted from dirt cheap household items and reworked angling poles. Have a look at some of the brushes on the market. I don't want to name particular suppliers as some I am very gratefull to for their help and advice and they are fellow cleaners too. What I am saying is that with a litle research there can be huge savings made. just look at the ro units being offered, the price of speedlining etc etc.
You dont have to tell me there are great savings to be made, I for 1 went the diy route and it saved me a packet but I still buy things from the wfp manufacturers & suppliers
Without some of the ideas these people put in our heads we wouldnt be half as far along the wfp road as we are now
So I say to the manufacturers & suppliers in this industry keep it coming guys and well done for getting us this far
Chris
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Kirsty, thanks for that I'm really not trying to knock you or your company - honestly! and its good to hear your side. I was origionally looking to stock up with spare sections from the second hand angling market thats why I posted I've probably got in too deep with this subject and will shut up I think. I have to say that your site and sevice is superb though otherwise I would not purchase so much from you.
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Davew,
I followed jeffs advice and tried this out,
http://www.fishtec-coarse.co.uk/ProductDetailInfoWithoutOptions.cfm?ID=FC-ZENSPOLE&ShopRef=40&Prime=Yes&shopListRec=30517
For around £26 delivered it really is a good pole and so light, quite tough too, way more than a true CF, it's around 20ft and less bend than the unger 5 x 1.25m (20ft) section pole I used to use.
For a trial into modular it takes some beating.
Hi Guys, Alex is out working but I've just phoned him to check my facts!
The above pole is for a fibre glass pole, not a carbon pole. Alex says its a great cheap pole if you are happy with fibre glass, it being 3x as heavy and 3x as flexible. It also jams together easily as a past time!
You do get what you pay for. The retail price for the top section of a carbon fibre pole without the strengthening is £69.99 from a fishing shop retailer, the next section down is £60.99 and the next section down from that is £69.99. That's the price from a fishing shop retailer. Obviously with that price you don't get the gooseneck, hose, brush, insulation, adjustable bung, joint treatment, 'joint-stops', strengthened top section and instruction manual. :)
You really ought to check your facts more carefully ::)
1) I never said it was a CF pole, I said for £26 del it takes some beating as a trial into modular poles.
2)Just been out and weighed the zensorflex... it's 1.3kg for a 20ft, I've also got a "true" carbon pole @27ft and that weighs 1.2kg hardly 3 times as heavy :o flexability is subjective all I can state again is it's stiffer than my unger but not as much as my CF, but 3 times as flexible......Hmmm.
And no it doesn't jam together easily, not in my experience with the pole.
Obviously you would rather folks spend £500+ on your superlite which is understandable, but trying to run us down for producing our own "cheapies" is a bit rich ::)
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Hi Davew
Thanks for your reply. It's me, Alex's wife (Alison) that got all protective! :)
Uh Oh, I've just seen your post John. I'm getting back to looking after the kids and I'll let Alex take over when he gets home. Please accept my apologies if I have caused offense, I really wasn't trying to run anybody down!
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It's always going to be difficult with suppliers and buyers sharing the same forum it's up to the individual which route they take. I have taken the safe but expensive route and been happy to do so. However I'm getting interested in trying the alternative ways now that my kit is established as I have nothing to loose. All I would say Alison is tap in a particular brand name into your search engine and look at the best prices and you will see where I'm coming from even if I've misunderstood what I'm looking at.
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Hi Guys,
It's Alex back from work.
The Zensorflex weighs 1.2kg at 20ft you say John, well the 'Super-Lite' sections weigh only 360g at 20ft so this does equate to more than 3x the weight. Also I have measured the flex of both poles and compared with our 'Super-Lite' it is easily 3x as flexible, measured per degree of angle deviation at 20ft.
There, that's me being pedantic :)
Davew
For simple low level work as Alison said it is a great value little pole, but as a serious lightweight pole for commercial work it is never going to cut it. If you want to pick up cheap compatible sections then the Zensorflex number 3 section will perfectly fit the Super-Lite gooseneck, however if you want cheaper replacement carbon fibre sections you will need to stick with Maver Resolution sections 6-10. You may be able to pick these up second hand. Do not try to use the section Numbers 4 and 5 as these are far too fragile for window cleaning usage. For the top section you will need a Maver Super Taper section (code B4780 not the cheaper B3360) which I doubt you will find second-hand, also bear in mind that the Super-Lite top section you already have has been 'worked over' with carbon fibre reinforcement. There are many different Maver poles out there and not all are compatible with each other. For instance the Nebula pole you mention is a much cheaper (and heavier) pole, which would not perform half as well. The Grimreaper pole is also a cheaper pole (we do use these as extension sections sometimes as the 14.5m section is identical, bar labelling to our standard ones, the rest of the pole though is quite different)
There may be other makes of carbon poles out there that will fit your gooseneck but it will be trial and error finding them.
John.
We have never run anyone down for trying to produce their own 'cheapies', in fact recently we have helped several people on this forum with specialised parts that they have needed from us to complete their own converted fishing poles. We do however like to point out the real difference between the poles on the market, to those who are less familiar with these products. There is a very real performance difference between a pole that cost £250, but looks the same as one that costs £500. Our 'Super-Lite' sales whilst being quite impressive remain only a small percentage of our overall pole sales.
I have spent a long time researching many different brands and price brackets of Carbon poles for the 'Super-Lite project'. This has mainly been motivated, not by commercial interests, but by my desire to achieve the ultimate cleaning pole for my own commercial window cleaning firm.
I have personally bought many different poles available on the market and tested, weighed, assessed and tried them out. Currently we are sticking with our slightly expensive brand as it has the best balance of features for our window cleaning needs. However we are still striving to improve, we have 3 prototype poles from another major manufacturer that they have sent to us (at their own expense) to try out. I have also just purchased one of the latest Nanolith technology, Super Lithium, Carbon Fibre poles which is easily as stiff as the current pole but weighs about 450g less at 45ft, but with a retail price of nearly £800 for just the fishing pole which would reach 45ft I feel that it is 'too' much for anyone to consider as a cost effective pole.
I hope that this has helped you to understand the reason for our choice of product and why we charge our clients what we do.
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Davew,
I followed jeffs advice and tried this out,
http://www.fishtec-coarse.co.uk/ProductDetailInfoWithoutOptions.cfm?ID=FC-ZENSPOLE&ShopRef=40&Prime=Yes&shopListRec=30517
For around £26 delivered it really is a good pole and so light, quite tough too, way more than a true CF, it's around 20ft and less bend than the unger 5 x 1.25m (20ft) section pole I used to use.
For a trial into modular it takes some beating.
Hi Guys, Alex is out working but I've just phoned him to check my facts!
The above pole is for a fibre glass pole, not a carbon pole. Alex says its a great cheap pole if you are happy with fibre glass, it being 3x as heavy and 3x as flexible. It also jams together easily as a past time!
You do get what you pay for. The retail price for the top section of a carbon fibre pole without the strengthening is £69.99 from a fishing shop retailer, the next section down is £60.99 and the next section down from that is £69.99. That's the price from a fishing shop retailer. Obviously with that price you don't get the gooseneck, hose, brush, insulation, adjustable bung, joint treatment, 'joint-stops', strengthened top section and instruction manual. :)
Aah !! But it doesn't catch fish either. :)
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Hi Guys,
It's Alex back from work.
The Zensorflex weighs 1.2kg at 20ft you say John, well the 'Super-Lite' sections weigh only 360g at 20ft so this does equate to more than 3x the weight. Also I have measured the flex of both poles and compared with our 'Super-Lite' it is easily 3x as flexible, measured per degree of angle deviation at 20ft.
I find it astonishing that a pole could be that light. When I met up with Tony Jardine (Sair) a while back for a brief road test, I nearly fell over while picking it up because I wasn't expecting it to be so light. I've been used to using powerpoles - also an excellent pole IMO - so the surprise was understandable. If I get some of the work I've been quoting for recently (larger commercial jobs with longish runs of windows), I reckon I will go the supalight route myself.
A quick question Alex. When you lift the supalight from horizontal position on the ground, what is the longest length you could reasonably get away with without risking pole damage (or straining the body). Obviously the body bit will vary.
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Why don't you fix the pole together vertically against the building you are cleaning, its easier and quicker.
regards Jon
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We usually assemble the pole on the ground up to 40ft (unless space is restrictive) and then lean against the building and add extra sections.
We tend to assemble on the ground first as we find it is easier to fix the Velcro straps on after pushing the sections together.
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We usually assemble the pole on the ground up to 40ft (unless space is restrictive) and then lean against the building and add extra sections.
We tend to assemble on the ground first as we find it is easier to fix the Velcro straps on after pushing the sections together.
40 ft sounds fine as that would cover most jobs. Anyway, it's so light it shouldn't be a problem adding the extra sections vertically on your own with somewhere to lean the pole of course.
Thanks for the feedback Alex
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Thanks for such an in depth reply Alex, as you know I already have a Supalight and it's so good that I don't want to use a glass pole anymore. So for the lower work I started looking for a cheaper alternative i.e second hand carbon pole sections that I could happily play about with and dispose of when I break them without worrying about the expense, I can afford to be rougher with them with no worrys. As I know very little about the carp poles out there and which ones to buy I posted here. I searched for Maver Resolution and found the angling variety at £270 - obviously not exactly the same as yours and without many extra features. I then found other used Mavers with varying names that I thought maybe they could be used/chopped or just kept as spares. Like I said I'm not trying to have a go at you at all, just searching for more information and thanks to people like you I can learn all the time.
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[quote author=Alex Gardiner link=topic=35725.msg280893#msg280893 date=1176128295
The Zensorflex weighs 1.2kg at 20ft you say John, well the 'Super-Lite' sections weigh only 360g at 20ft so this does equate to more than 3x the weight. Also I have measured the flex of both poles and compared with our 'Super-Lite' it is easily 3x as flexible, measured per degree of angle deviation at 20ft.
There, that's me being pedantic :
Well Mr Pedantic ;)
If you are comparing your £500+ superlite against the 26 times cheaper zensorflex then you are correct in your statement, but no one mentioned comparing the superlite, just a carbon fibre pole in general,and the majority are not 3x lighter, the statement was
"The above pole is for a fibre glass pole, not a carbon pole. Alex says its a great cheap pole if you are happy with fibre glass, it being 3x as heavy and 3x as flexible. It also jams together easily as a past time!"
It just smacked of , its only glass fibre, it's 3x as heavy, it's 3x as flexible, and it jams together.
I was only replying to davew, he asked for a cheap light pole with a strong top section, 15 ft length, so I gave him an option and then suddenly its being compared to a superlite, ha ha funny old world 8)
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John tomkins
We were not comparing a £500 pole against the £26 pole, but responding to these comments from Davew
"Umm throws up some big questions over some of the prices we are being charged elsewhere."
and
"Some r&d sure but at the end of the day most wfp products are only adapted from dirt cheap household items and reworked angling poles."
Now Davew has just spent quite a lot of cash on one of our Super-Lite poles, it was obvious from his comments (not yours) that he thought that these two items were perhaps comparable products and hence why the price difference?
The comment from you that I objected to was
"Obviously you would rather folks spend £500+ on your superlite which is understandable, but trying to run us down for producing our own "cheapies" is a bit rich "
We have never 'run down' others for trying to DIY their own poles, in fact we have spent quite a lot of time recently helping and advising some members of this forum that have purchased a cheap fishing pole on how they can get the best out of them.
However we do like to show that what we offer is a fair price for the quality of product they are getting.
A Super-Lite 45ft currently retails at £565 plus VAT. If you bought just the carbon pole components from a discount fishing supplier they would cost (we know because we check regularly) £550-650. This would not include all of the WFP parts.
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plenty of disussion of this on the DIY forum
Jeff B has listed all the bits you need to get to certain heights
Im about to go down this route, only thing is, i will have to ditch the VIKAN brush and ive become attached to the old thing ;)
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Of course a £25 pole isnt the same as a £250 its cheaper, lasts longer and is idiot proof, therefore ideal for staff. But if it was for me I would double the money and go for the longer and stiffer Ron Thompson reload @ £49.99
The F16 type are for much higher up. I made the mistake of using it all day and everyday for a year.
Quote from an industry experts help in my attempts to get an 80ft Carbon fibre pole ( is it possible ? )
" unfortunately CF has poor wear properties, so simple locking and unlocking of tapered sections will eventually cause the sections to wear, this quickly weakens the joints increasing the poles deflection or sag as they wear in. Furthermore to use ### sections increases the number you require overall, to achieve the operating length. They also limit the poles working length."
So I suggest you keep the expensive pole for the high work- less joint movement and get yourself a £50 Carbon composite everyday pole for £50 If it does wear its only £50 for another its stiff and robust enough for our useage.
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Matt, whats the weight of the VIKAN ? (kitchen scales guess will do)
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Matt, whats the weight of the VIKAN ? (kitchen scales guess will do)
ive just weighed it
its 490 g
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I weighed mine at 400g ... curious why the difference now
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I weighed mine at 400g ... curious why the difference now
mine is about 2 years old, its brand new, i brought a few for spares :) thing is, im still on the first brush, its 3 years old soon
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In my chase for ever lighter brushes because of the highly engineered carbon fibres, I have always discounted anything that weighd more then say 5 oz. But... I have just stuck a 1LB/454gram weight on the end of the Glass fibre Zensorflex No3 section and although its bouncy (about the same as an unger alu) it will take the weight. Maybe give it a go and see Matt. I know others use it.
I also tried it on the longer stiffer Reload and again it does take the weight and I think if you want stiffer after trying the Zensor go up to the Reload. So try your Vikan, suck it and see and get back to us.
You could use any other poles out there, its just that I have tried and tested many and the ones I recomend are the ones I recomend if you know what I mean.
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Matt my brush is 3mths old .. maybe they have lightened them since
Jeff, do you think 400g is too heavy for the map f16, I have Gardiners gooseneck and supalite (bentley) brush on ATM
Chris
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In my chase for ever lighter brushes because of the highly engineered carbon fibres, I have always discounted anything that weighd more then say 5 oz. But... I have just stuck a 1LB/454gram weight on the end of the Glass fibre Zensorflex No3 section and although its bouncy (about the same as an unger alu) it will take the weight. Maybe give it a go and see Matt. I know others use it.
I also tried it on the longer stiffer Reload and again it does take the weight and I think if you want stiffer after trying the Zensor go up to the Reload. So try your Vikan, suck it and see and get back to us.
You could use any other poles out there, its just that I have tried and tested many and the ones I recomend are the ones I recomend if you know what I mean.
cheers Jeff, i will give it a go,its just i feel "safe" with the VIKAN, dont know why
your recommendation is good enough for me Jeff :)
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John tomkins
We were not comparing a £500 pole against the £26 pole, but responding to these comments from Davew
The comment from you that I objected to was
"Obviously you would rather folks spend £500+ on your superlite which is understandable, but trying to run us down for producing our own "cheapies" is a bit rich "
davew wanted ...cheap light pole with a strong top section, 15 ft length, I gave him the zensorflex option, nothing more nothing less.
I then get quoted that my reply to davew,
"The above pole is for a fibre glass pole, not a carbon pole. Alex says its a great cheap pole if you are happy with fibre glass, it being 3x as heavy and 3x as flexible. It also jams together easily as a past time!"
thats what I objected to ,I gave a reply and you (your wife) ran it down,
And saying
"The Zensorflex weighs 1.2kg at 20ft you say John, well the 'Super-Lite' sections weigh only 360g at 20ft so this does equate to more than 3x the weight. Also I have measured the flex of both poles and compared with our 'Super-Lite' it is easily 3x as flexible, measured per degree of angle deviation at 20ft"
is obviously comparing poles is it not?
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You have put me on the spot there Chris, it will take the weight but the whole idea from an RSI point of view (which is why I went public with what I know) is to reduce weight. Its the lifting up and down arm/shoulder movement that may cause long term unforseeable problems.
If you like the Vikan that much and as long as you keep it upright when assembling and reducing then try it. But dont forget that with the C/F poles you can not put the same scrub leverage on the pole as a trad pole and should use a different technique when scrubbing.
ps dont forget its a strong top section as a collar/reinforcement for inserting over the thinner c/f section that helps spread the load.
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Yes jeff i see .. i was just curious, althought i have just been out to weigh the bentley with the gooseneck and they together weigh less than the vikan on its own weighing in at 350g
this is a very interesting subject atm for me as i'm just starting to use cf poles
Chris
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I tried the vikan (just weighed @ 410g) on the zensorflex/reload and it really is pushing it compared to the 230g ish addis/bentley option I now use, I used it for a first clean and it was like going back to my old unger ally job :(
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Hi John,
You say that 'davew wanted ...cheap light pole with a strong top section, 15 ft length, I gave him the zensorflex option, nothing more nothing less'
Actually what he said was, "I have a certain brand of carbon pole (water fed)that would seem to be much cheaper if bought through an angling outlet." he thought that he could buy the same product (as the Super-Lite) from an angling retailer but a lot cheaper and wanted to know was there a difference.
What we pointed out was that there was a difference between the poles he was looking at on the net and a world of difference when compared to a cheap fibre glass pole.
We posted this information to help Davew realise the difference in the various products not to 'shoot' you down, as Davew obviously was getting confused by the wide array of products and prices. As you may notice our first response to his post was not directed at you or even for you but was for Davew, to help him see the difference.
As many have found there are a wide variety of fishing products on the market that can suit various needs, horses for courses.
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John, So it will do it but its like going back to the future :)
Floor brushes for 10 years now so it really would be a step back in time for me to use a heavier car brush on the windows but if thats what people want...?
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Not half jeff,
I blame you for getting me into the lighter side of life ;D
As I do frames/doors/cills/1st cleans etc I do find the addis will not last me a month (maybe I'm just heavy handed) whereby the vikan has been going since last summer and is still newish....
but the weight :o
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I've been using a Vikan sill brush - wouldn't want that on the end of a long lightweight pole!
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John try a Tesco own brand "melody", blue colour brush for frames etc its the nearest thing to a vikan, its flocked.
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Jeff I thought the idea was to get away from flocked coz the hold the dirt, been using the mono addis and apart from the wear issue I find them ideal.
Will have a look at that melody though.
Cheers
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Yes its flocked so will hold the dirt but if anyones used to using a vikan and plenty of water the melody is lighter. I just thought you may get a bit more wear, I dont do frames and get 7 months out of the Addis. Confusing arnt I but I am just trying to be helpful. ::)
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Not confusing at all, just very helpful ta :)
I suppose just doing the glass I could loads more wear from the brush but frames especially just kill them off, it's always the edges of the brush that give in first.