Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Jeff Brimble on March 29, 2007, 08:34:20 pm
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Does this topic interest anyone or would I be wasting our time ?
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No, I'm interested; my right-elbow has been playing up and I'm taking a glucosamine supplement (vegitarian mind you) to see if that helps.
Crack on, Jeff. I'd love to hear what you have to say.
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Don't ask.
I've only just started back at work after nearly 5 weeks off with a trapped nerve in my neck and tendon and muscle problems in my arm and shoulder.
I was in immense pain like I can't describe for a few weeks, even when sat still.
Painkillers wouldn't touch it. :'(
I'm back to doing 3 or 4 hour days now.
It's been widely diagnosed as caused by my job.
Carrying ladders, scrubbing above my head etc... :-\
That's why as of monday I'm WFP.
It's going to be lot less strain.
I couldn't carry on as I was.
Rog.
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Squeaks, did you ever work with a damp scrim on your shoulder? i used to get a bit of jip in mine which i put down to that, but it could be just coincidence.
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Its a difficult topic cause not many will admit to the odd twinge.
Unger recognised RSI and brought out their ergotec range of squegees for trad use etc. There may not be much info out there from a wfp/trad perspective. I think the manufacturers could contribute bit wont.
I will put into this topic as much as I can but its got to be a combined effort and the results may not be what you want to hear. There is some info on pros but I cannot put a link in, but I could copy and paste if anyone does not, or cannot go there. But you a large tract of info might find it boring ?
This topic comes with a disclaimer, most sites wont talk about health issue so do not rely on any of the replies here seek your own advice from your GP
Could I suggest that its brought back up the board say on a weekly or monthly basis otherwise it wont be a live topic and will drop down the board forgotten like the other topic on Pros.
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i have tennis elbow and in a lot of pain some times (wfp)did have acupunture not so bad now if i keep it straped up
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Squeaks, did you ever work with a damp scrim on your shoulder? i used to get a bit of jip in mine which i put down to that, but it could be just coincidence.
No!
Surely you'd make your top wet and dirty. ???
That's what pouches are for!
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from time to time,my shoulders can give me great pain,across the top back :-\
this comes at no particular time or scale,I never put a damp scrim on them years ago,so not sure y :-\
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Call me stupid but what is RSI ???
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It's just wear and tear Terry.
Like I've always said, no matter how you work, this job will get to you in the end. :-\
I've only been doing it 9 and a half years and I'm a wreck already.
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Call me stupid but what is RSI ???
Really silly injury. ;D
Actually it's Repetitive Strain Injury.
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WFP is just as bad, with your neck tilted back all day you soon know about it. I've never figured out while poleing i get thirsty very quickly? Anyone else?
Great, I've got an iffy neck and starting WFP on monday. :(
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Standing back further stopped my neck aching so much,that`s why i got a superlite pole really cuts down on the strain.
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keep your mouth closed when polling then it wont dry up... thats my tip..
Bazz...
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Call me stupid but what is RSI ???
Really silly injury. ;D
Actually it's Repetitive Strain Injury.
I think i know what you mean now.. cheers Rog
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Terry, I think it's the mullet that's done youre back in.
Chris
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Standing further back than normal does help. But not if you have a heavy pole that creates more muscle strain on your shoulders.
A wfp can save you falling off, but becomes a demon as you realise you can go a little faster and do. Working longer increases your income but also increases the risk of damage from using muscles longer and for different purposes to what they were intended for. When trad you tend to use many more muscles than with a wfp so maybe with wfp the risk increases.
I believe that with a wfp you should slow down and do less work than you are able, but still earn the same or slightly more. Its a balance. Take breaks each hour, do some paperwork/collecting etc instead. Do complete warm up excercises and equally important relaxation ones,as would an athlete. At the end of the day do cool down ones. If you read up on RSI, it can happen to any job even a pc mouse can cause agony. They will also reccomend all over body excercises, even if you just get probs from using a squegee.
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A wfp can save you falling off, but becomes a demon as you realise you can go a little faster and do. Working longer increases your income but also increases the risk of damage from using muscles longer and for different purposes to what they were intended for. When trad you tend to use many more muscles than with a wfp so maybe with wfp the risk increases.
Very true. Using WFP you use the same small group of muscles for hours and hours each day, trad cleaning if like a full body workout compared.
keep your mouth closed when polling then it wont dry up... thats my tip..
Bazz, have you had the thirst thing too? i've also considered the running water sound all day as a cause! Good tip.
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Hi Folks,
Now I have negatives and positives on WFP RSI
When I was trad I suffered a stiff back in the mornings. A slightly painfull knee and a pian full foot. All that seems to have gone. But.....
Just lately I have developed a painfull right elbow ad acheing arms - my kneck is not too bad - I think it's down to over reaching with the pole with me. Now with me using my Backpack all the time, if I over reach (not put my pole up high enough) then I not only have to push up the pole but my shoulders lift the Backpack up too.
David
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I think this is a really interesting and relevant thread, which concerns us all, but seriously can you see everyone doing warm-up and cool down exercises, at the end of the day, the human body is like anything else, wear and tear in a physical job will get to everyone, but then on the other hand, the exercise also does you good, i know what i prefer, and its not sat in a office with risk assesments for my chair and desk, like at my mrs work!
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since starting with wfp I have been getting spots before the eyes, is this serious? :)
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Every 6 months I go for my regular check up with an occupational therapist at my local hospital and the nurse commented that window cleaners are high on her list of occupational strain related injuries.
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Hi all
I used to suffer with tennis elbow real bad
I was sat having a break in the car when i heard this homopathic doctor on the radio
well i phoned in and spoke to him < said that i was a w/c and that both my arms were bad and he suggested that i take some ARNICA
so off to the health food shop i went
well with in two weeks the pain had gone
If even now i have a tough day i take a few over the week and it just takes the pain away .
Guys try it it worked for me :D
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after a long day, my left thumb hurts, I've not been able to figure out why, but its only started recently, and its getting worse..
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I used a backpack and an alu unger for years with no problems even though I have a prolapsed spine injury. I put some really meaty heavy duty MOD shoulder straps on and it helped.
My probs began with 2 seperate personal crises, on having to carry a geriatric 20kg dog up and down to our first floor flat 20 times a day for a year until it died and the other caused me immense personal stress which I think also switched on the long term problems. The right shoulder became hot then because I had to carry on working changed to an frozen shoulder that again I did not have time to do anything about. It took over 2 years to recover and left some sort of "shadow" injury that is also taking its time to go.
Did I mention the new RSI I have at the base of my palms. Trust me I know its RSI. Started as a white painless lump and developed into hot spots then gradually hot pain when holding the poles at a distance.
Rog this does not have to happen to you, become your own expert.
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I try to let the muscles do the work and not my joints,if i move my elbow in the same motion as you do when your playing say snooker or pool with the pole if you use this kind of technique you will get tennis elbow or similar injuries.I keep my elbow and forearm in a fixed position and use my shoulder muscles it`s a lot less stressful on the arms i find.
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Does this topic interest anyone or would I be wasting our time ?
It's certainly a valid subject for me too. Shoulder problems at times when working trad, intermittent elbow problem shortly after going for WFP. More back issues since going WFP (though much better in recent months).
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I try to let the muscles do the work and not my joints,if i move my elbow in the same motion as you do when your playing say snooker or pool with the pole if you use this kind of technique you will get tennis elbow or similar injuries.I keep my elbow and forearm in a fixed position and use my shoulder muscles it`s a lot less stressful on the arms i find.
That's an interesting theory Mr.NWH.
It's probably correct too.
I think about that...
since starting with wfp I have been getting spots before the eyes, is this serious? :)
Since watching Girls Aloud on MTV I have been getting a sore wrist.
Is this serious?
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Only if you're getting friction burns!
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Hi all
I used to suffer with tennis elbow real bad
I was sat having a break in the car when i heard this homopathic doctor on the radio
well i phoned in and spoke to him < said that i was a w/c and that both my arms were bad and he suggested that i take some ARNICA
so off to the health food shop i went
well with in two weeks the pain had gone
If even now i have a tough day i take a few over the week and it just takes the pain away .
Guys try it it worked for me :D
Hi Andy Jasper ;D
i remember you telling me this at the nec show but had forgotten the name i would just like to say thankyou we had a great couple of days and learnt me a lot about business, i hope everything is going ok ;)
Regarding injuries i ache from my fingertips to my toes ;D thats why it is inperritive you have a light pole to be honest its only really my right arm and shoulder that aches but this is an interesting topic, we can all learn something from it. Its all down to wear and tear on our bodies and being unfit :P
Brett.
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since starting with wfp I have been getting spots before the eyes, is this serious? :)
No. It's OK. They're on the windows.
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I would definately recomend the gardiners superlite pole but it would only be suitable for me on my big commercial jobs lm thinking of getting one next, on everything else i use an Ionics ergolite, just using my second one but it is light i dont know how people use those heavy ones all day :P
Brett :)
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Using a thinner lighter pole ie superlite seems to have got rid of a lot of those aches and pains,the thick base section on a lot of poles give me wrist pains and cramp in my hands if used all day long.
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I for one had two badly knackered knees as a result of working off ladders my whole life, not sure I can blame that on RSI though, I think it was the fact that once up the ladder, your knees rest (albiet very lightly) against the rungs as you work, so the damage was cumalitive over the years :-\
If I'd had the benefit of hindsite I'd have used kneepads of some description...too late now :'(
I've had muscle strains since using WFP, but that isn't through RSI, but just through bad practice, ie, reaching sideways too far with a well extended pole to get over a peaked roof for instance.
My neck and shoulders can ache on some jobs, but again, that is more muscle fatigue, lactic acid build up and so on, similar to weight training.
However; I do have a niggling elbow problem, and that is more RSI related, and the reason for that is because I keep forgetting to change hands whilst working.
I keep holding the pole in the same way, I'm left handed, so my left hand is the top hand on the pole, the right hand is the bottom hand.
No problems at all with the right elbow.
And the left elbow is only a problem on low work.
If I concentrate and ensure I keep swapping from left hand use to right hand use I'm fine.
It is important that you learn to operate both left and right handed...it really isn't an ambidextrous thing, it's just a change of emphasis.
I think that lightweight poles and brush assemblies are vital to reduce the risk of over strain to our bodies.
The poles because of physical weight, the brush/goosneck/jets etc because at height and at awkward angles, just a few grams can make a massive difference on the strain you put your body under.
If your brush and gooseneck is relatively heavy, even with an ultra lightweight pole, going over the likes of conservatory roofs or reaching at awkward angles is going to be a strain.
At the trade show I saw some wonderfully engineered poles....and some really solid goosenecks too! Really robust things!!
Which is all well and good...these suckers aren't going to break down on you...they'll break your body first :-\
gotta go!
Work beckons...
Ian
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I keep holding the pole in the same way, I'm left handed, so my left hand is the top hand on the pole, the right hand is the bottom hand.
No problems at all with the right elbow.
And the left elbow is only a problem on low work.
If I concentrate and ensure I keep swapping from left hand use to right hand use I'm fine.
It is important that you learn to operate both left and right handed...it really isn't an ambidextrous thing, it's just a change of emphasis.
That sounds odd to me. I'm left handed too but my left hand is at the base of the pole and my right hand further up.
Although I don't swap which side I work with the pole, I do shift the weight of the pole onto my right arm periodically. If someone were watching me work, they would not be aware of the shift of emphasis as it looks like I'm doing it exactly the same as my left hand would still be at the base of the pole and my right further up it.
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That's what I thought Shiner!
I'm right handed and my right hand is the bottom one.
That's Gilesy for you. ;D
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That's what I thought Shiner!
I'm right handed and my right hand is the bottom one.
That's Gilesy for you. ;D
lol, I also play snooker right handed..and always believed it was left handed! ::)
But whatever; educate yourself to swap hands, it just helps to balance things out.
Ian
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Right handed too with right hand at the bottom of the pole. Daft really cos my left wrist is very weak. First few weeks wfp were really knackering especially on the wrists and shoulders mostly caused by wrestling with a glassfibre pole over conservatories.
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Ok, so far we have.
Rt elbow, trapped nerve in neck & tendon muscles, Tennis elbow, Shoulders, Neck tilt probs,Rt elbow and aching arms, Left thumb, wrist pains & cramp from too big section, elbow, aches head to toe, neck & shoulder, elbow, wrists & shoulders.
Causes and cures, over reaching over cons, too thick dia.sections, use light pole, muscle fatique due to lactic acid, swap hands.
Over on Pros.
Poleing rather than trad is less aerobic which seems to blend both anaerobic and aerobic giving fitness and strength. Use pole correctly, use van instead of trolley, tennis elbow resonds to accupuncture, dont continually use if it causes a pain in the back, dont use glass fibre over 30ft, dont rinse off the glass, dont ignore pain do something about it. Warm up excercises, porridge releases energy for muscles slowly. Position pole properly rather than uase brute strength, use body to move pole. Correct technique will avoid all injuries, but you only learn this the hard way.. Poles are too large diameter and too heavy. Slipped neck disc due to bad pole technique.
Thanks to David Moriss ,
Repetitive strain injuries are linked to type of work conducted, the tools used, and the design of the work station. For example, most tools are made for "the average man". Sometimes grips are too wide or too slippery. Gloves may be too thick causing separation of fingers, or they may not be flexible enough. Tight gripping and squeezing with overstretched hand muscles is then required (the fact that standard hand tools are too large for many women helps explain why RSIs are more common amongst women). The workstation may be designed so that workers strain their bodies bending, stretching, reaching or twisting, etc.
Other factors contributing to repetitive strain include excessive work rates, lack of job variation, speed up, poorly maintained equipment, stress, overtime, vibration and inadequate training.
RSIs can be caused by overwork. Our bodies are simply not designed to work faster, more vigorously, endlessly or without rest. They break down, just like machines that are overworked. Rapid, repetitive motions with insufficient rest can cause RSIs. With overwork, the body is forced to work too much with not enough time to recover. This spiralling effect - coupled with stress, another contributor to RSIs – can cause injuries that might never heal without a long-term break from their causes.
And here is a link for anyone who wants to read more in depth about rsi
http://www.cupe.ca/Research/4223
Info in Pros WFP, A-Z, "Back Pages" I am unfortunately not allowed on this forum to put in links to it but if you search you may find more info there. I will try to bring more info but am getting 1 finger typists rsi :) Watch this reply as this is where I will bring it to.
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RSIs can be caused by overwork. Our bodies are simply not designed to work faster, more vigorously, endlessly or without rest. They break down, just like machines that are overworked. (quote from jeff brimble)
??? ??? ???
So what should we do then, work slower, dont do as much, have more breaks, if most of us on here worked for an employer, than we could put these issues to them, but as i am self employed like many other people here, lets be realistic and face facts, this is simply not going to happen.
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Jase:
you are lucky, you're only 26 so you're probably still very fit and active but as you get older you need to listen to your body telling you that those aches and pains need resting more often.
As you get older you start slowing down but fortunately get wiser through knowledge and wisdom to compensate for it.
There's no point going like a bat out of hell, non stop, working all the hours under the sun just to bugger your long term health up or work yourself into an early grave. You can't take your money with you when you pop your cloggs.
I recommend warm up exercises at the start of the day, wind down exercises at the end of the day. Healthy nutritional eating. Take plenty of short breaks during the working day, but most importantly listen to when your body is telling you that it is in pain and don't ignore the warning signs. None of us are immune to aches, pains and diseases, we all get them in the end, some people unfortunately get them sooner than others.
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i have read this thread with great interest and have to disagree with most that has been said. a lot of the aches you are suffering are just due to being unfit, before starting wfp i had been involved in a body workout called fitness 4x4 the guy who developed this workout is 58 years old of a slim but firm build and yet challenges anyone of any age or size to lift 45 pound weight above head more times than he can , he has never been beaten.
the workout he does uses all the muscles we use whilst we use wfp but with weights of upto 45ibs in each hand and he can do this non stop for over an hour at a time , after a years training i am now doing over 200 lifts with the same weight and takes about 20 minutes to complete, the advantages i have found is i can use any pole even my 40ft glass fibre one all day without even feeling any fatigue in my arms where as most i have seen need a break every 10 or 15 minutes.
if you read his articles on his webpage you will uderstand more of what i am trying to explain and there is a video of him on a news channel doing a demonstration. his web page is www.fitness4x4.com if you then click on news scroll to bottom of page and then read his newsletters you will see that what he is acheiving is being done by a lot of people so he isnt a freak of nature.
if any of you are going to the fed show in blackpool and are struggling with RSI i would really like to speak with you to see if doing any of these exercises helps the situation.
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Good points Trevor ;)
I've always been a fairly strong bloke, quite strong shoulders, and since starting WFP and pushing myself hard on the high, heavy work, I've increased my stamina with regards to using WFP.
So to a point I understand and agree with you.
To build up resistance to lactic acid fatigue you have to keep experiencing it...try speed walking for about 400m (make sure no one is looking though cos you'll look a berk! ;D)
The pain in your calves is unbelievable.
Ditto the training you have to do for tug of war, your forearms feel like they are going to explode :'(
Ever used a Concept 2 rowing machine?
Push yourself over 2000m and you have aerobic pain and anaerobic pain to deal with.
To extend your thresholds takes effort, and to do that you have to push yourself.
Unfortunately with WFP (and trad too) the range of movement is limited and highly repetitive, often, and in particular with WFP, you are extending yourself unnaturally and unevenly on many occasions.
If you are naturally strong and robust you will cope better than those who are not with the strains of the job.
Some will discover certain weaknesses in their bodies and they will not work on the areas they need to to strengthen themselves and thereby helping to protect themselves from injury.
And it isn't remotely easy to work out what it is you actually need to do to combat or correct the problem.
for instance:
It has taken 9 years for Squeaky's body to go 'twang'
rog is excessively right handed and I'll bet that this has had a major impact on the fact he is now 'damaged goods'
his body had become unbalanced, eventually, no matter who you are, your body will turn on itself and go 'twang' :-\
But working out what you need to do to keep your body in balance (or harmony) is beyond most of us.
And so, whether a desk jockey using a keyboard all day long, or a window cleaner using a pole all day long, we'll continue to injure ourselves as our bodies break down under the strains we put it under :-\
Don't mind me...it's a Sunday and I'm bored..so just musing away on here ;)
Ian
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ian i understand the points you are making and can only speak from my own experiences but like you i thought i was reasonably strong and fit that is until i tried the 4x4 workout now at the age of fourty i can honestly say i am fitter and stronger than any time in my youth i also dont suffer from any stifness or sore muscles after an hard days work and whats more i can see me improving year on year for many a time yet, dragan is 58 and still improving.
If you are attending the fed show i will bring my dumbells and give a demonstration of what is achievable in a short space of time, many phisicians have said that what dragan does is an impossibility that is until they witness it ,but dragans training works for anybody and works to get the whole body in balance so avoiding injuries.
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great thread.
It amazes me that wfp wc can spend 1000s on equipment, hours on the net looking to improve our lives, yet the most important business asset we have are ourselves, yet we are always last in our priorities.
It costs nothing to drink enough water and to do a few stretches at the end of the day. 10 minutes of our time is all it takes. (How many people have saved that 10 minutes many times over on each job since going wfp.)
Yet when it comes to looking after ourselves we put very little effort in. Or we spend a fortune or wait months to see a 'specialist.'
Just 1 day lost due to aches and pains is worth a minimum £100.
We can all save ourselves a fortune for a few pennies and minutes each day.
It would be a good to see a 'sticky post' with pictures or short videos showing half a dozen or so simple exercises that we can all do without being acrobatic or healthy.
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mark you are absolutely spot on, in our job our health is the most important thing if we lose it are let it slip the money we earn soon drops and whats more if you are unhealthy or sore it is a lot harder to motivate oneself to do the work and i think that is why so many pack up only to take a job that pays less.
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I have just read all the posts on RSI,
One thing for sure is that more W/cleaners will switch from Trad to wfp and more will suffer from RSI.
I have suffered with it badly when I switched from trad to wfp at the beginning of 2006. In my first month I had very little sleep as the pain was most extreme at night time with my hands neally doubling in size with the swelling.
I have now 15 months of experience with wfp, I work 4 or 5 days a week. I start at 8am and only stop for lunch at 1pm for 30 mins, I then work through to 5pm. I have reduced the effects of RSI greatly.
I have replaced some of my 3 and 4 story work with lower work. I organize my work so all my easy work is done at the beginning of the week, and any 3 or 4 story work is done on my last day of my weeks work, giving my body the chance to recover at weekend.
I use mostly 18’ poles with lightweight brushes on, A salmon brush mostly. On an extender pole they are extremely light and the whip effect is greatly reduced due to the lightness of the brush. I allways rinse with brush on the glass for upstairs. I use a mini pole for downstairs with a vikan brush though the weight of the brush does not matter on the mini pole.
I have a very light grip on the pole and often clean a window just resting the pole between my thumb and forfinger. I push my hands gently into the pole this way and because my grip is on the opposite sides of the pole it stops the pole from sliding through my hands. ( I don’t know if I have explained that too well) It took a while to master the grip but it reduces a lot of pressure on the wrists.
I don’t take Ibourfen anymore.
I have been seeing a sports Physiotherapist for 7 weeks. I went originally to see him about my lower back as it had ached for 4 months solid. It turned out it was not my spine or wfp causing my back to ache. It was that the muscles in my lower back were locked solid, It was caused by trad wc when up a ladder I used to lock my legs an hips for balance so I could reach out to clean windows. That mixed with 5 a side football. That problem is well on the way to sorting itself out. But it was his claim to cure RSI in my hands wrists and elbows that I have been seeing him for.
He has reduced the RSI Greatly. It now only effects me if I have a heavy week at work. And that is only Friday or Thursday nights. I have not had any pain for the last 2 weeks.
He has given me certain excercices that stretch the muscles in the neck and shoulders. He claims most of the problems occur near the neck and spine as the muscles knot up and effect the nerve endings and channels that go down to the wrists . They have a lot of office workers who come to them with RSI.
I don’t know If ever I will be truly cured, time will tell, But if seeing a Physio helps me manage the pain so it gives me little trouble then it will be money well spent.
I feel a lot of empathy for others who are suffering with RSI, but there are steps you can take to reduce the pain. IE, wear a wrist support, A surgical one, they have a metal plate in so the wrist can only move so far over, I have modified it so I could use it for work in my early days of wfp. I only use it now a couple of nights a week when I go to bed.
Nel
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This is an excellent thread and all the points are worth considering. But to some extent there is "luck of the draw".
(EG - my Mum's got a couple of friends - one is 68, the other is 69. Both are not overweight and non-smokers - yet one looks ten years older and is usually in a wheelchair or struggling along on two sticks and has just developed Parkinson's disease - the other looks ten years younger and she is trim, uptogether and walks miles.)
I suppose we should all do the best we can with what we've got - healthwise.
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I take Extra strength Rose hip syrup capsules, do warm up excercises etc. Use Ibuferen when its bad to relax it and rest it when its enflamed. I reccomend the use of a Putnams type pillow a few nights a week to rest my neck.
When using the poles I keep my lower hand below my waist when posible to lessen shoulder joint movement and stand further back. This is easier with the fishing poles. I went to a osteo practitioner (there being no sports therapists here) to find the best excercises for my shoulders, Basically resistance extercises using your own arms and body in oppostition movements.
here are some more links.
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=18135.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=19716.0
http://www.cotswoldcleaningandmaintenance.co.uk/shinersforum/viewtopic.php?t=60& amp;sid=3e34c7fda4b76ec4a6d5d3f9fb18deea
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=20400.0#
Backpacks & Aches
http://www.anotherforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1148488730 (copy and paste cleaning pros in the title instead of anotherforum as theres too much stuff to bring over)
PAIN http://www.anotherforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1150205802/0
Tennis Elbow http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=23248.0
Age and body reaction http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=29855.0 Dec 2006
Hope this helps and good luck, although you get to realise that you have to take responsibility.
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One of the first things most of us learned when we started in window cleaning, was to be ambidextrous. Most of us are equally happy, using either hand for squeegee work.
I think it's important that we learn to use the pole in the same manner. Change leading hands frequently, this helps to build up a better balance of muscle tone.
Like Ian Giles, I am fortunate to have a strong upper body, but strong upper body doesn't mean strong lower back. I would not recommend juggling 45lb weights unless you build up to it slowly. I used to do this with two 56lb weights, and suffered with lower back pain for years in consequence. Dai