Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Phillip Darvill on February 28, 2007, 05:16:19 pm
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http://www.professionalwindowcleaner.co.uk/pro10.pdf
Looks impressive!
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It does look impressive, but I bet it costs sixty-squillion quid and will never fit into my pram next to my backpack.
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how does it dry the windows when its raining .or do you have the day off
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a bit of a scoop for professional window cleaner aswell ;D ;D
breaking news, hot off the press
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It leaves the windows dry.
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How does it work.
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Wonder if it can recycle the water?
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I think the bottom manifold out let is for the air out supply. They have also redisigned and lightened the ergolite and brush, now called the E2.
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Yeah but how does it dry the glass.
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it blow drys it like a car wash ;)
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The idea that this can work (WFP dry windows) is ludricous. Remember that petrol engine that gave 150mpg, the battery that lasts forever and weighs nothing?
It took hundreds of years of science and observation to get osmosis, and then millions of US space race dollars to get reverse osmosis.It took twenty or so years of the best auto engineers in the world to come up with the wiper blade after internal combustion engines powered vehicles.(invented 'brilliantly' about ten years later by a window cleaner for window cleaning).
If it really finished dry you wouldn't need pure, if you don't need pure you don't need half the science.
Such a thing is possible but when it happens the following conditions will probably be met.
1. Someone makes a breakthrough in a field totally unrelated to window cleaning. For example Dyson has blowers that can produce unheard of pressures (vacuum cleaners suck they've turned it around).
2.Some brilliant individual push's the barriers
3.Several people /corporations all come up with the same idea at the same time.IE. liebnitz and Newton both invented calculus at the same time, and there are countless other examples.
4. Such a breakthrough wouldn't be held over for a trade show and it wouldn't be a window cleaning magazine scoop, it would be on News at Ten and in Scientific Amercian.
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Don't worry guys - if it works then Matt will be along soon showing how a Henry vacuum cleaner, a Honda petrol generator and hovercraft technology can easily be adapted with an old coathanger to let us build our own!
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Dont know about Matt but the insides of fishing poles are already hollow and to a certain extent self sealing. Was also thinking about doing the reverse and using the self supporting poles to suck gutters.Suck and blow.
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Yes i did have Jeff in mind as the brilliant individual, and then a ten year patent battle to follow with someone like Peter F , while yet another party makes all the money. In the future windows won't be cleaned they'll be Brimbled (verb).
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I prefer being an adjective ;D
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That window looks brimbly clean ;D
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it blow drys it like a car wash ;)
You can say that again! ;D
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Dont know about Matt but the insides of fishing poles are already hollow and to a certain extent self sealing. Was also thinking about doing the reverse and using the self supporting poles to suck gutters.Suck and blow
Now that is a brilliant idea we have a spare wet and dry vac and a fishing pole and some gaffer tape so it will give me something to do on rainy days.
Not sure if the wife will be happy about me knicking the vac but its for a good cause.
Paul
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Hmmm.
It is hard enough getting a completely spot free finish with pure water. What complications can you imagine with a warm air blower on the window?
Spots spreading like streaks if you're not really perfect in your finish.
We'll see.
Window cleaning used to be a simple job :(
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I look forward to the "blow them dry " versus " leave them wet" threads
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Hmmm.
It is hard enough getting a completely spot free finish with pure water. What complications can you imagine with a warm air blower on the window?
Spots spreading like streaks if you're not really perfect in your finish.
We'll see.
Window cleaning used to be a simple job :(
thats a good point, a small spot is a small spot, a small spot blown up/down/across the window is a series of smaller spots ( which will be easier to see )
i still cannot see the real pont of this, afterall a window with "pure water" dry's clean, whats the point ?? ?? ??
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i still cannot see the real pont of this, afterall a window with "pure water" dry's clean, whats the point ?? ?? ??
Money for the suppliers!
Andy
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i still cannot see the real pont of this, afterall a window with "pure water" dry's clean, whats the point ?? ?? ??
Money for the suppliers!
Andy
Hmmmmmmmmmm i didnt like to say it, thanks for that :)
so, they sell you the best thing since sliced bread for OTT (see what i did there :P )
then a year or 2 on
Oh hang on, this is better, its a must have, better than the last thing we sold you
if its not broke, then why fix it
oh hang on, Microsoft do it all the time ;D ;D
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In their defence, there's a few things about Ionics I like.
I still like their monofilament brushes.
Even though they warp and twist out of shape in a couple of weeks, I still like the amount of brush hairs on the head, overall a good brush.
I still like the stainless steel jets they use, they're hard to beat.
I still like the pole hose they use. They sussed the ideal best - inside and outside diameter hose.
I still like their poles, but I should think Brodex are giving them a run for their money!
But....
I would love to believe that this new innovation is what it promotes itself as, however....I see trouble!
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I look forward to the "blow them dry " versus " leave them wet" threads
By the time that happens, everyone will be on "blow them dry" and Squeaky will be arguing to "leave them wet" ;D - and everyone on here will look a bit wrinklier.
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A FOOL AND HIS MONEY ARE SOON PARTED! 8)
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I cant wait to see it myself.
I just hope it works, after all as it stands i hate to leave the windows wet.
If it does what it says on the tin, I will be first in the cue to part with my money.
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Hmmm.
It is hard enough getting a completely spot free finish with pure water. What complications can you imagine with a warm air blower on the window?
Spots spreading like streaks if you're not really perfect in your finish.
We'll see.
Window cleaning used to be a simple job :(
thats a good point, a small spot is a small spot, a small spot blown up/down/across the window is a series of smaller spots ( which will be easier to see )
i still cannot see the real pont of this, afterall a window with "pure water" dry's clean, whats the point ?? ?? ??
To me it sounds more like a matter of aesthetics - just to please the customer when it is not really needed.
I will be very interested to see the line that Ionics take on this after pushing "wet" WFP for so long. I imagine though that they will be pushing the virtues of both types of WFPing as it would be pretty hard to unravel years of positive marketing.
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In their defence, there's a few things about Ionics I like.
I still like their monofilament brushes.
Even though they warp and twist out of shape in a couple of weeks, I still like the amount of brush hairs on the head, overall a good brush.
I still like the stainless steel jets they use, they're hard to beat.
I still like the pole hose they use. They sussed the ideal best - inside and outside diameter hose.
I still like their poles, but I should think Brodex are giving them a run for their money!
But....
I would love to believe that this new innovation is what it promotes itself as, however....I see trouble!
Sure thing. Ionics are good at what they do. They may be pricey but they are great on image. Also, they don't mind throwing money back into the pot for research and development. Their systems look good too but I prefer a simpler style that is easier to self maintain even if it isn't so pretty.
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Sorry but this is a crock, why part with another couple of grand for a hyped up hoover?
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Sorry but this is a crock, why part with another couple of grand for a hyped up hoover?
Because it blows rather than sucks?
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sorry, ok it blows - you know what I mean.
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Personally I think it sucks ;D
Seriously though...good for Ionics, we all give them a slating at times on here, they are damn expensive and not all they have is necessarily better than stuff you can get a hell of a lot cheaper, but they are the leaders in the field...they are the ones who have developed zero waste R/O's, they've crash tested their cages, now they have developed a method of drying the windows as you go...
All the R & D they do has to be paid for, so of course they are expensive :-\
I do plenty of jobs where I wish I could get the glass drier, quicker, I have a couple of shops that suit WFP but I have to do they trad because as the traffic goes past, spray (or dust on a dry day) gets up into the atmosphere and if breezy will contaminate the water droplets on the glass and dry as spots, so I always have to do them trad.
So I guess there are going to be plenty of other situations whereby it will be of major benefit to be able to dry your work as you go along.
I can't ever envisage a time when I'll be shelling out several grand for such a system, but I'll warrent that on really big, posh work (top of the line hotels, prestige offices and so on) it would be a major selling point, particularly on high work where the customer doesn't want wet windows for their minted customers to see.
I think we should be giving Ionics a pat on the back for continuing to develop WFP in the way that we do ;)
Ian
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Personally I think it sucks ;D
Seriously though...good for Ionics, we all give them a slating at times on here, they are damn expensive and not all they have is necessarily better than stuff you can get a hell of a lot cheaper, but they are the leaders in the field...they are the ones who have developed zero waste R/O's, they've crash tested their cages, now they have developed a method of drying the windows as you go...
All the R & D they do has to be paid for, so of course they are expensive :-\
I do plenty of jobs where I wish I could get the glass drier, quicker, I have a couple of shops that suit WFP but I have to do they trad because as the traffic goes past, spray (or dust on a dry day) gets up into the atmosphere and if breezy will contaminate the water droplets on the glass and dry as spots, so I always have to do them trad.
So I guess there are going to be plenty of other situations whereby it will be of major benefit to be able to dry your work as you go along.
I can't ever envisage a time when I'll be shelling out several grand for such a system, but I'll warrent that on really big, posh work (top of the line hotels, prestige offices and so on) it would be a major selling point, particularly on high work where the customer doesn't want wet windows for their minted customers to see.
I think we should be giving Ionics a pat on the back for continuing to develop WFP in the way that we do ;)
Ian
As you say Ian, there are some jobs where it would be more suitable to leave dry windows from a cleaning point of view. However, I think most of it would be as a customer pleaser - even though the end result would probably not be any different.
However, one area where I am wondering if it would make a difference is in coastal areas. I have seen some negative posts about WFP in areas where there is a lot of salt - particularly from Rosskeseva. If the salt didn't come off properly with the cleaning then "dry" WFP would make no difference. However, if the salt in the atmosphere was attaching to the glass after cleaning because the glass was still wet, then this could be a great product for coastal areas.
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if this device blows the windows dry after being polewashed how long do you have to wait before their dry. It must mean that the job will take you longer than it does now so whats the point you would be investing money in something that will take you longer to do therefore you will lose money. P;ease correct me if im wrong
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Might as well get the squeegee out, it will be a lot quick and leaves the window dry!
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why dont you all wait to see it instead of knocking it.
If it works which i assume it does and it has been stated it is just as quick then that has to be brilliant, i will be first in the cue as i hate to leave the windows wet.
Dave
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i agree it will be great if it works at least you will walk away seeing the finished product instead of wondering if they will dry ok i cant wait to see it and i do hope it works .
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If it dries as you go, maybe it just leaves it mostly dry, when you scrub, lots of water runs off the window any way, maybe this just blows a lot more down the window leaving it drier. hanging around to completly dry the window could be optional?
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I think the physics is that water is blown off the glass-not blown dry, just as happens in a car wash and also if it was in a downward direction gravity would help.If any small residue remained and the water was pure this wouldn't matter.
Dyson have developed a revolutionary hand drier which exploits this.
It could be that I am wrong and they are using a different set of principles.
Matt's point about if it aint broke etc falls down because if this was possible the sales and marketing advantage of any business that had it would be enormous.I still think though that it is an April fool/Marketing hoax.
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why dont you all wait to see it instead of knocking it.
If it works which i assume it does and it has been stated it is just as quick then that has to be brilliant, i will be first in the cue as i hate to leave the windows wet.
Dave
I can't see me buying one as I am already stretched financially but who knows where I will be at in a couple of years or so. Although I ewonder if it's overkill, I would be very interested to see it in action.
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I cant see it blowing if you can use it inside.
Suck or Blow ?
What do you think ?
Dave
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Has to be suck surely.
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I think the April Fool suggestion falls down because today's the first of March!
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Ian you mentioned zero waste ro - do you know how it works? It passes the brine water from the ro into a mixed resin bed! I can assure its another one of Ionics 'nice little earners' where customers have to keep coming back for 'filters'. Trust me if NASA and all the top engineering firms in the world can't produce zero waste ro how on earth could Ionics? They're the biggest *rap talkers in the business.
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The Isreali's and Arab states would pay billions to convert water from the dead sea into tap water. They are not even bothered about the pure bit.
People don't come any brighter than those, and they can't crack it.
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Curious you're dead right with that one mate - I studied at Uni with a jordanian guy (really smart guy)
I know enough about engineering from 2 degrees of it (chemical and Mechatronic) to know that Ionics are literally talking out of their derriers
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I know enough about engineering from 2 degrees of it (chemical and Mechatronic) to know that Ionics are literally talking out of their derriers
may be this is the hot air they have harnessed to dry windows with there new machine lol
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Ian you mentioned zero waste ro - do you know how it works? It passes the brine water from the ro into a mixed resin bed! I can assure its another one of Ionics 'nice little earners' where customers have to keep coming back for 'filters'. Trust me if NASA and all the top engineering firms in the world can't produce zero waste ro how on earth could Ionics? They're the biggest *rap talkers in the business.
I didn't know it worked that way. Surely that costs loads in resin? It's bad enough if it's just tap water going through it. Just to give an example; In my area, tap TDS is about 200 so I use an RO. The water that comes out of the waste outlet was about 320 the last time I checked. I paid for an RO to reduce my running costs rather than add to them.
Mind you this Pro 10 thing is supposed to be suitable for cleaning inside windows too. Unless someone is having a wind - up, that onew fact alone could make a huge difference. I think of all the entrance ways to offices that are two storeys high. There are quite a few like that around my way. I used to do one of them off a triple 3.5 metre ladder ducking and diving around all the beams (this was in the early 90s before WFP was around with any conviction).
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ring Ionics and ask them where the salts etc from the tap water go to in their zero waste system.
I'd bet you'll get a lot of uhhs and errs and then the phone will go dead.
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I know enough about engineering from 2 degrees of it (chemical and Mechatronic) to know that Ionics are literally talking out of their derriers
may be this is the hot air they have harnessed to dry windows with there new machine lol
I want to see it in action before passing an opinion.
Mind you, I'm not prepared to break the bank for such a tool - tempting though it would be if it works well.
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Of one thing I am certain, attendance of window cleaners at the NEC will now be higher than first expected. Perhaps Ionics did a deal on ticket sales?
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The Isreali's and Arab states would pay billions to convert water from the dead sea into tap water. They are not even bothered about the pure bit.
People don't come any brighter than those, and they can't crack it.
Seems they did crack it back in the 1970's, google desalination of seawater and you'll find loads to satisfy your curiousity!
In the 1970s the seawater reverse osmosis process was developed which made potable water from seawater by forcing it under high pressure through a tight membrane thus filtering out salts and impurities.
Here's just one link to follow.
http://www.hohcanarias.net/desstor.html
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Cost and scaleability. If it had been cracked hundreds of miles ,sorry make that thousands,of sqaure miles of arid desert could be irrigated. Don't you think Geldoff would have some of that for Africa?
I hope you are not another one of them plants they keep sending onto the forum.
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http://www.water-technology.net/projects/tuas/
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http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap1.html
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Sorry but this is a crock, why part with another couple of grand for a hyped up hoover?
well said
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Sorry but this is a crock, why part with another couple of grand for a hyped up hoover?
well said
I doubt it will only be a "couple of grand" somehow.
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At 110,000m3/day, the Tuas seawater reverse osmosis (SWRO) plant has sufficient capacity to meet around 10% of the national demand – and at a price which challenges the notion that desalination is a high-cost option.
http://www.coastal.ca.gov/desalrpt/dchap1.html
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Bet you like that turbo thingy too. ;D ;D ;D
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Also if it was solved in 1970 you'd think that 10% of demand would have been surpassed by now.Some very clever people have looked at this.
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Yeah, and Nuclear energy only accounts for 16.9% of the Worlds electricity supply, and your point is?
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some people are talking some rubbish tonight
"zero waste ro - do you know how it works? It passes the brine water from the ro into a mixed resin bed!"
i dont usually defend big companies is that really how its done? i dont think so
"Cost and scaleability. If it had been cracked hundreds of miles ,sorry make that thousands,of sqaure miles of arid desert could be irrigated. Don't you think Geldoff would have some of that for Africa?"
it doesn't pay to supply poor people with things they need. when i say poor i don't mean they cant afford a holiday i mean they can afford the food to stop hunger pains.
"I hope you are not another one of them plants they keep sending onto the forum. "
could this be what you are?
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The Point is that this water is desperatly needed, as I said cost and saleability prevent it from becoming widely available. The nuclear debate is a different one where politicians and people actively appose it because of enviromental issues.
If water could be produced widely cheaply and in quantity it change not countries but continents.
So thats my point and it's not such a bad one.
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philip just ring them - where does all the salt go to? Its highly unlikely that they have fitted a condensing unit to their systems :D
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The west could do a lot to help third world countries and to a degree they do, but we can barely afford to build roads, schools, hospitals and even overcome droughts in our own country. Wealthy Arab states etc can and do operate huge desalination plants to provide drinking water for their people, its not impossible, the clever bods have done it and that's that.
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Paul do you know how a desalination plant works?
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People...
There are going to be as few deleted posts here!
No offence to anyone, some good comments...but this isn't the section for a discussion about the third world problems!
No time now, got to get to work, please stick to the debate on the Ionics pro 10
Ian
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People...
There are going to be as few deleted posts here!
No offence to anyone, some good comments...but this isn't the section for a discussion about the third world problems!
No time now, got to get to work, please stick to the debate on the Ionics pro 10
Ian
'Morning Ian!
In my view the Pro-10 has not been produced to help the arid part of the third world with it's fresh water problems. ;)
No doubt the manufacturer will tell us how we cannot do without it and if that is true I will buy one.
(Or if my business can survive awhile and I am convinced I need one I will eventually build one myself that will do an acceptable job - with the help of you people on this site! ;D)
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I hope, however it dries the window that it is powerful enough to dry the frame as well and into all the cracks and crevices. Otherwise it's back to drippy drip spotty spot!
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http://www.baudoin.nl/content_nl/pag3_01.php
I wonder
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http://www.baudoin.nl/content_nl/pag3_01.php
I wonder
I wonder why it's all in Dutch!
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Got in der himmell!
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I have read some crazy things tonight too.
WFP on the insides! what kind of air pressure would you need to make 1.5 litres a minute disappear into thin air?
An ordinary hand blow dryer uses 2300 watts. What kind of leisure battery would you need to blow dry windows?
Unless you use a Genny, you would use your van payload up in battery weight.
At best, this system could only blow the water to the side of the frame. What about multi pane windows? Where does the water go from the top panes?
More questions than answers. I would have to see it working to believe it. Dai
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In true Ionics style they've got us talking about it.
If it can be used indoors then it's a suction system ala carpet cleaning system (spray, scrub, suck).
Now, this might make sense on commercial premises but RULE IT OUT for domestic unless the pipework is 100% clean and you don't knock over items in the household and don't wet/dirty the carpets.
We don't always get the full picture, and when the last idea was lauched (ie zero waste) they didn't mention that the initial waste water went back through the system again and then again. Yes, zero waste, but the tds would reach daft figures after a while, net result, extra sales of membranes etc.
As long as this is marketed at the internal commercial no carpet arena then fine, but for the everyday WC-er...No
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now you know y we dont need or want one ::) :o ;D :-X any one thats is ;D
I can just see it now as your drying the windows the air flow blows off the ladys
nickers off the line down the road they go,all in a days work ;D :o
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http://www.cleaningshow.co.uk/page.cfm/link=156
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So it does suck it up. No need to use pure water then, if it's all recovered?
I can see people prefering that, but think of the expense!! It's got to take longer surely...
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the word GIMICK springs to mind
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I've softened a bit. Ionics have to have some credit for trying to push the boundaries.And no one would argue that it isn't a stamp of quality if you have that wash and reach logo on the side of your van.They are at the forefront of the industry, and to a degree we as a group are probably more resistant to change than our customers are. After all we/I don't like it when they (customers)can't see the clear and obvious advantages of WFP. Some people don't like it, and have a closed mind on the subject, and on the topic of dry windows maybe we are the same.
I have also had time to reflect that my comments on 'plants' were ill advised. If such people exist with us then that is a good thing. The R&D is being matched by listening to the comments and grumbles of real window cleaners(we are their customers), and they can alter strategy and products according which can only be a good thing.How would we like it if they didn't listen?
So I am apologising and saying we all benefit from advances. Now about my Bird muck remover that I have invented is there any chance that you'll be in touch. Picture below
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Genius!
Cant wait to see it.