Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Tosh on February 15, 2007, 05:39:27 pm
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I think I'm normally pretty good; I just act 'normal', friendly; try to appear professional; then when they're feeling safe; stick 'em with what I think is a good price (though I'm still getting this part wrong too).
I then blow my own trumpet for a bit; 'We do a top job, blah blah blah...', and it tends to work.
But I was caught out today, for a one-off clean, and Wor Lass says I came accross as, 'We'll do it but we're gonna charge you and it's gonna be HIGH'.
The lady took my card and bid me 'good day'. I just have a feeling that I had I been a better 'salesman', I could have made an easy 30 or 40 quid out of this woman. She still may phone me, as she's selling her house and most window cleaners avoid the street she lives in as it's fraught with access problems.
Anyway, we can always learn something; have you any 'sales tips' to pass on when you're dealing with someone either on the phone, or face to face?
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Think I talk too much. Ended up talking to a pensioner for 30 minutes today... ;D The oldies like a bit crack on, got her house to do frames n'all...!
Tip. Never slag off another cleaner unless they are dodgy/druggie/thief/taxdodging little scrotes who are undercutting you and trying to steal your customers.... >:(
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I'm hopeless and get everything wrong. When I analysed my success(I'm not a success at window cleaning) someone on here said about having a trustworthy face, and I guess that must be it.
I would have told her (the lady) what she wanted to hear, that I could do a one off special clean that would stay cleaner for longer during her house sale, and that an estate agent once told me/you that the kerb appeal of sparkling clean windows and frames can add up to £3000 in value and definitly get more viewers through the door and give the house that cared for appearance.Show interest, have they taken the details photo yet? Ring me if you want to get the full asking price.
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I'm hopeless and get everything wrong. When I analysed my success(I'm not a success at window cleaning) someone on here said about having a trustworthy face, and I guess that must be it.
I would have told her (the lady) what she wanted to hear, that I could do a one off special clean that would stay cleaner for longer during her house sale, and that an estate agent once told me/you that the kerb appeal of sparkling clean windows and frames can add up to £3000 in value and definitly get more viewers through the door and give the house that cared for appearance.Show interest, have they taken the details photo yet? Ring me if you want to get the full asking price.
Hey, that's good!
But what about justifying a high cleaning price when on a regular monthly clean she'd be around 15 quid, and I'm wanting 30 to 40 pounds for it?
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But what about justifying a high cleaning price when on a regular monthly clean she'd be around 15 quid, and I'm wanting 30 to 40 pounds for it?
Why are you trying to charge someone 30 or 40 for a £15 job? ???
You'll soon lose all your customers if you treat them like that.
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Why are you trying to charge someone 30 or 40 for a £15 job? ???
You'll soon lose all your customers if you treat them like that.
Squeaks, it's for a one-off clean! Obviously you're going to charge more for a one-off clean! For all I know, her windows haven't been cleaned since 1978.
Get with the programme mate.
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Squeaky,
I'd do the same cos a one-off/first clean tends to take me at least twice as long and I want paying for my time!
On a first clean I just charge the standard rate on the promise of on going work but a one-off is exactly that a one-off and I want paying for it
Regards
Alistair
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A really dirty clean should take you no more than 30% longer unless you're crap at window cleaning.
Hence 50% more is a good earner.
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So your face to face sales tipSqueaks is, I'm cheap, and oh yes I'm also honest. £20
Tosh's wife rightly suspected he could have got an easy £25-£30 (£40 does seem harsh). On the other hand £40 to achieve the full asking price? Tosh does do a better job so I'm told.
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A really dirty clean should take you no more than 30% longer unless you're crap at window cleaning.
Hence 50% more is a good earner.
Squeaks,
What if you're bursting at the seams with work and someone asks you to do a one-off clean?
It takes time to go and view the property too; never mind the time spent talking to the prospective customer.
Why not stick in a good - high - quote? It makes sense to me.
If you don't get it, you've lost nothing. If you get it, you're quids in; so's the customer too, since her house is more saleable; and when we're talking house prices, we're talking THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF POUNDS!. So thirty or forty quid is nothing when it comes to the big picture.
Given that the government is introducing those new 'home packs' at 300+ a shot in June 2007, I think were going to have a glut of 'new customers' selling their houses prior to that date, wanting one-off cleans to avoid the charge.
Anyway, had my 'tight-wad' potential customer had a regular window cleaner prior, then it wouldn't be a problem for them, would it?
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A really dirty clean should take you no more than 30% longer unless you're crap at window cleaning.
Hence 50% more is a good earner.
Rog, Tosh is right, if its a one off i charge 3x mormal. Why should i clean years of cr*p off for only an extra 50%.
Tosh, I reckon the Mrs should do the negotiating if she thinks your so bad at it ;)
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You tell him Tosh ;D
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If it was a £15 normal quote job, I would have said £25, and explained why, telling her it would be £15 as a regular job. I know she doesn't want a regular job, but at least explain.
My sales tip: Be straight with people, if you don't know..say so, people are not stupid, if you give them "bull", they will work it out eventually and your reputation will stick, you'll loose them and they'll tell others. Be straight and honest and fair. Don't mistake that for cheap and soft!
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Oh, and don't ever be seen dressed like Tosh! ;D
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If it was a £15 normal quote job, I would have said £25,
PJ,
I never even viewed this property, but she said she had a conservatory; she said the windows were dirty and she said she lived in Rockwood Road (which equals awkward access and no window cleaner (it's avoided)).
From your post, I'm perceiving that you're thinking I'm over-charging her.
But am I?
If it's not worth my while to go and have a look at her property, then clean it and not get AT LEAST 30 or 40 quid; is it worth bothering for me?
My answer is no. I'm not being arrogant, I'm just running a business.
As for being straight with people, I think I was being 'too straight'; hence the negative feedback from her.
I would only be prepared to clean her windows if I was paid over and above what I can get from my regular, repeat work; and I imtimated to the prospective customer that I wouldn't be cheap; only so we wouldn't be wasting each other's time.
Crikey, I was hoping to get some 'sales tips'; not defend myself.
PS.
I think you find me sexy in my stockings!
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My face to face sales are alright not perfect but alright, i don’t beat around the bush i tell them how it is!
AS for the one off jobs, I’ve got one tomorrow to do so ill take my camera and take some pics for you all.
I won’t say what I’m getting for it, ill let every one have there say tomorrow.
I’ve already been paid for the job cos i always ask for cash up front just in case they do a runner which has happened a couple of times to me >:(
Stuart
SAJ Window Cleaners Ltd
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No need to defend yourself, Tosh. My post was not related to anything more than the topic heading really, but I added that if a job would be £15 as a regular, then as a one-off I would likely charge £25.
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Tosh
How can you possibly price a job without seeing it?
Anyway, I seem to get the impression that deep down you know your young lady has more of a grasp of selling than you.
Visual perception is extremely important in communicating to others when selling and I think that if you both turned up to price a job, dress sense would show a distinct advantage to the real lady - thats if your complete post is anything to go by ;)
Have you ever thought about doing Anne Summers parties - or shouldn't I ask?
;D ;D ;D ;D
from smartass!! :)
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No need to defend yourself, Tosh. My post was not related to anything more than the topic heading really, but I added that if a job would be £15 as a regular, then as a one-off I would likely charge £25.
Exactly what I would say. £25-ish.
If you charge 3 times value you'll soon get a name as a cowboy.
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Squeaky - you're a damn good window cleaner, you look presentable and you're articulate. Why do you undervalue yourself?
Look - if your round is full why would it be "wrong" or "cowboyish" to charge double your regular rate? After all isn't it showing a lack of consideration to your regular customers to let a new one-off customer come along and pay not much more for a first (or one-off) clean?
You could make not just an honest living from window cleaning but a very good one if you realised your true worth.
Lecture from old Malc over! ;)
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If you charge 3 times value you'll soon get a name as a cowboy.
Rog, i'm not a cowboy as you put it, thats why i would charge 3x, they get a pucka job. Personally i cant be bothered with one offs.
If they want their windows looking great & want me to do it then they will pay, other wise they can find a cowboy who has shed loads of time on his hands to do them cheap.
Rog, your not a cowboy window cleaner, so why sell yourself cheap? ???
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Never said you were a cowboy Macc, but if you (not you personally) go around ripping people off you'll get yourself a bad name in the area, and that could cost you a lot more in the long run.
There's good prices without taking the p.
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Roger...Why do you not take a leaf out of your fellow local window cleaners book and charge what they appear to make a living a very nice living at.
You have posted about taxes, having to buy a banger, not being able to find money for this and that....You are a smart guy, why not use that potential to make some good money doing exactly what your are doing now...I know money is not everything but it does make life a little sweeter...why be the cheap charlie...I seriously doubt whether anybody is going to erect a statue of you in the Chepstow area for your charitable works to the community.
Sounds like you have a job and not a business, you sound as if your are less your own boss than you think you are (no offence meant).
Good luck and look around...they are making the money....
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I wish people would stop making out I'm cheap! >:(
I've hardly ever given a price without being told the last guy was cheaper.
Most of the time I get a shocked look.
I usually want £8 for a 3-bed semi that takes me 10-12 minutes.
I rarely turn over less than £25 per hour.
How is that cheap?????? ::)
If it was a fiver I could understand it.
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I rarely turn over less than £25 per hour.
Are you sure, Squeaks?
At 25 quid an hour, you should be to turn over at least 150 a day; that's six hours at 25 quid an hour.
Say you only work four days per week, that's 600 quid per week.
There's 52 weeks in a year, but lets say you take 12 of them off for holidays and bad weather; that's 40 weeks at 150 quid per day (on a four day week) = 24,000 pounds per year.
Does that sound reasonable so far? I've only got you down as working four days per week.
So you turnover 24K and have 5K as your 'expenditure', leaving you 19K as your profit.
So:
Profit from self employed: = 19,000
minus personal allowance (4,895) = 14,105
10% of 2090 = 209
22% of 12015 = 2,643.30
National Insurance:8% of 19K = 1520.
This makes a tax bill of: 4,372.30 pounds.
That's calculated on the basis that you work for 40 weeks of the year (12 weeks off) and only four days per week.
SO HOW COME YOU ONLY HAD A 1000 POUND TAX BILL!!!! ;D
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I think Squeeky is aware of what he can charge his customers in the area he works compared to local competition and is happy grafting up & down ladders for the wage he feels comfortable with. So long as he's happy, that's the main thing.
My sales technique is to simply be honest, polite, professional and ask a sensible price that suits both myself and the customer. I must be asking about the right price in the areas I work because I only manage to gain 3 in 5 quotes now whereas if I was too cheap it would be more like 9 out of 10.
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Tosh I don't work every hour of every day, and don't forget travelling between jobs.
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Squeaky,
I'd do the same cos a one-off/first clean tends to take me at least twice as long and I want paying for my time!
On a first clean I just charge the standard rate on the promise of on going work but a one-off is exactly that a one-off and I want paying for it
Regards
Alistair
Yeah but what about the ones that agree to regular 4 or 6-weekly cleans, then when you call/turn up say, "not this time thanks" or after you've finished they say "I'll call you", that's what gets me
Chris
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Tosh I don't work every hour of every day, and don't forget travelling between jobs.
Squeaks,
I worked out your income on a SIX HOUR working day; not including travelling time.
Just say you work an average of 8 hours per day, but only clean windows for six of them; giving you two hours for traveling/setting up time.
And then I only calculated it on a four day working week!
Remember, mate; there's 24 hours in any given day and I've not said anything about 'working every hour of every day'; only a reasonable amount of them.
Get with the programme, Squeaks.
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Hi Chris,
Yeah I know what you mean about the ones that take you on then cancel after the first clean, but thankfully its only happened twice still it really pes me off and im left fuming for about a week.
The last time was just before Haloween and I was giving serious thought to egging her house and it'd just get put down to 'trick or treaters' but I clean the next 2 houses in her street and reasoned it'll probably be bad for business - you just gonna take it on the chin and be thankful for the 100's of good customers ;D
Alistair
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I dont see the problem with charging high, as a plumber in my last life we charged TWICE the rate of most other plumbers in the area, we never claimed to be cheap, in fact we stated we were expensive but you get what you pay for, fast, reliable and and at a time that suited them. We told it how it was, and we were still not able to cope with the amount of work we had comming in, and the customers were happy to pay a higher price for a better service.
As long as your customer is happy with the price and you havent told them any porkies about other wc's then its not ripping them off, its proving them with a choice.
DAve
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Sincerity....fake that and you've got it made ;D
I don't honestly know if my sales technique is good or not, but as a rule I get on very well indeed on a one to one basis with people.
As I talk to them I like to smile at them...I try to make my eyes mirror my smile...I like to see if I can get a smile in return, if I'm doing that I am at least empathizing with them a little (that can be a potential customer or the woman at the checkout scanning my goods).
I agree with honesty too, be straight with your potential customer, don't be hesitant of diffident (neither could ever be said of Tosh by the way ;)).
On one off cleans you do need to charge at least double, well, I say that, but half the trime I cave in at the point of telling them the price and probably do very similar to Squeaky and then mentally kick myself for not charging more!! :-\
On the subject of turnover, of course Squeaks doesn't turnover 24k per year, if he did he would have plenty of ready cash and plenty in the bank too.
It doesn't matter how often you can regularly turnover £25 per hour, or £30 per hour, Roger needs to look at his end of year figures (as do you all) divide that 52 and you have your weekly income, or business turnover I should say.
Take 5k off that total for business costs & overheads (like it or not, your vehicle IS an overhead, without it you wouldn't have a job) and that will give you your realistic income.
When it comes to tax purposes. various other things come into play to further reduce your profit, but I'm not talking about that.
For the trad window cleaner, 5k per year is about right as a business running cost.
I honestly don't know what squeaks turnover was for the last tax year and I don't expect him to tell all on an open forum, from what I can gather the tax man re-evalued him and has charged him on account for the following year also, so his tax bill isn't actually £1000 for the year he submitted, no doubt next year that forward payment will be taken into account when he does his return.
If Squeaks submitted somewhere between £15,000 and £17,000 for his turnover the tax figure he quoted sounds about right (especially if they have made him pay some on account).
Lets say he's submitted 17k, lop 5k off that and that leaves him with an income of just £12,000 per year.
No one needs to come back at me with tax equations, we leave all that for the end of the year, but if you are turning over roughly £17,000 per year, then your income is going to be in the region of £12,000
Every 3 years or so, most of us will replace our current vehicle, maybe many of you can only afford to pay out a grand or so on some old banger, but that's hardly surprising if you are only on an income of 12k per year is it?
Claiming to turn over £25 per hour is of no use whatsoever if at the end of the year it only equated to a 12 grand wage.
If you are turning over £25 per hour and only getting £12,000 per year out of that, then you are seriously screwing things up...what are you doing wrong?
Ian
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A bit off topic now, but I'm sure I don't want my annual turnover debated publicly! What I earn and what hours I choose to work are my business. I started w/c 20 years ago, I've provided for my wife, have a modest home and raised 3 kids, I now have 4 grandchildren!
I chose windowcleaning obviously to provide for my family, but also to gain freedom, which is more important than annual turnover and profits. It's true you need money, but you can't buy freedom to spend all this time on the internet! ;D :P
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Given that the government is introducing those new 'home packs' at 300+ a shot in June 2007, I think were going to have a glut of 'new customers' selling their houses prior to that date, wanting one-off cleans to avoid the charge.
Tosh i fairly sure this idea has been abandoned by the government.
Jeff
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Most of the time I get a shocked look.
I'm going to get one of those tomorrow morning.
I've been asked to quote for a large leaded house with an electric gate. I'm doing it tomorrow (Saturday) because the owner works in London during the week.
He's an ex-army officer too (I always disliked officers) and has had a couple of window cleaners (probably trad only) refuse the job; a big leaded one.
He described his property and tentitively asked 'if I was interested'.
He's obviously desperate too, since he wants me to do them 'then and there' and every other month thereafter.
As I say, I'm going to see a shocked look tomorrow! ;D
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I chose windowcleaning obviously to provide for my family, but also to gain freedom, which is more important than annual turnover and profits. It's true you need money, but you can't buy freedom to spend all this time on the internet! ;D :P
I'm with you on this one PJ. I dont go to work purely to earn wads (though wouldnt mind earning wads doing what I do). For me, self employment means flexibility and freedom to change things.
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My sales technique is quite simple put a professional card through the door if they want me they can ring me but if they see me accross the road or doing their neighbours thay can ask. Its not the best sales methord i admit but when i come face to face i am polite and courteous and always have a smile for the potential customer and try and explain a bit about my service wether it be trad or wfp this seems to go a long way with the customer. My biggest selling point at the moment is telling customers that their frames and doors get cleanes they seem very impressed with this
Brett
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There must be some formula we could use though? Or at least take a look at and see if we can improve our sales technique.
Tomorrow, I'm going to stick a high price to the bloke I've already mentioned; yet I want him to have a nice warm fuzzy feeling about me; rather than thinking he's gotta have me 'cos he can't get anyone else.
Okay, some might say provide a service that is top notch; commensurate with what he's paying us, but we tend to routinely do that anyway; mostly.
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Tosh,
If you want to use a sales formula then it is
BENEFIT - COST - BENEFIT.
Repeated several times it makes the client think they are getting good VFM (value for Money) and they dont question your prices.
Sarah
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If you want to use a sales formula then it is
BENEFIT - COST - BENEFIT.
I recognise the 'sandwich'; when giving bad news to someone at work; you can sandwich negative behavioural traits between two good ones.
Such as, 'Look, you're a hard worker but your time keeping is appalling. If you're late again, you're going to have your left testicle removed. Look, I don't like saying this to you, you work well in a team and it's just this one thing that's letting you down.
So you're just 'sandwiching' the bad news (the price) with the good news (your waffle)?
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Come on then - lets here your w/c sandwich Tosh ;)
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We'll clean your windows and won't rob you, but it'll cost you a tenner, but your windows will be clean and you won't get robbed, as long as you cough up quickly.
Howzat?
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A really dirty clean should take you no more than 30% longer unless you're crap at window cleaning.
Hence 50% more is a good earner.
Squeaky. You're going to love hearing this :) . 30% longer is probably about right for most first cleans done the traditional way. However, I find that it can be closer to double the time when done with WFP (this assumes going around the job twice which I feel is the proper way - for me). It's not always like that of course but it can be.
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Tosh I don't work every hour of every day, and don't forget travelling between jobs.
Squeaks,
I worked out your income on a SIX HOUR working day; not including travelling time.
Just say you work an average of 8 hours per day, but only clean windows for six of them; giving you two hours for traveling/setting up time.
And then I only calculated it on a four day working week!
Remember, mate; there's 24 hours in any given day and I've not said anything about 'working every hour of every day'; only a reasonable amount of them.
Get with the programme, Squeaks.
So what programme is this that you're going on about.
The twelve rungs of WCA? (Window Cleaners Anonymous).
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Hadn't thought of that.
Wfp first cleans are a nightmare.
But then that's the w/c's fault, not the customers.
You're making them pay extra because your equipment is not as good. :-\
I'm not having a go, just thought it was a fair point. :)
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Wfp first cleans are a nightmare.
They can be, but that's why I generally use ladders for them.
But yes, I've washed windows with WFP, then used a ladder to get the crud off that the pole didn't take off (not using soap). The crud was stuff like sillicone or concrete; builders stuff.
The subsequent clean is a dream though; quicker than using ladders.
You only get out what you put in.
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The subsequent clean is a dream though; quicker than using ladders.
Well, depends who you are, but that's a different topic. ;)
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or, cost yes i'm expensive, but benifit, windows I have cleaned stay cleaner longer because I use pure water and their is no soap stickyness to attract the dirt.Most of my work is moving to bimonthly because of this- In fact I do that good a job it cost's me business. Then benefit about frames and sills etc.
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One off cleans:
Unless they're next door to a job you're actually doing, they're a pain in the b*m.
Someone phones up: "Hello, I need someone to clean my windows, I live in a rented house and I've got to vacate by next (Mon.Tue etc) and I need the windows cleaning because I'll lose my deposit if the house isn't clean".
Now: They want quick service, you have to go and price it up, you have to make a special visit to do the job, you don't know until you start how bad it's going to be.
What are you, masochists?
It's going to cost you time before you even know if you're going to get the job, and there's no future value (repeat work).
Why should you subsidise these people? If they wanted their windows cleaned, why didn't they have it done during the (weeks/months/years) they lived there?
If you've already got a good lucrative business you don't need the hassle of "one offs".
So: Someone phones up: "I want a one off"
I answer: " My price starts at £50"
Occasionally I get one who says; "That's OK"
Otherwise it simply isn't worth my while.
Cheers,
Ian
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Two things. one i thought watisface was going to amaze us with his mystery job. And two they locked that i can't believe it post down fast. I couldn't understand it's purpose. Was it a joke?
Sorry for interupting topic, carry on.
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We'll clean your windows and won't rob you, but it'll cost you a tenner, but your windows will be clean and you won't get robbed, as long as you cough up quickly.
Howzat?
Awful :)
The brain doesn't compute negatives very well.
We will give you an excellent, quality job. It will cost you ten pounds. In order to keepo such reasonable prices, prompt payment is required. (or we send the boys round) :)
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Hadn't thought of that.
Wfp first cleans are a nightmare.
But then that's the w/c's fault, not the customers.
You're making them pay extra because your equipment is not as good. :-\
I'm not having a go, just thought it was a fair point. :)
:) . WFP first cleans can take nearly twice as long. However, if the customer is wanting a regular service I tend to charge at 50% higher than maintenance cleans. In short, I share the extra cost of the first clean with the customer in exchange for their regular custom. If they are unwilling to pay the extra cost of the first clean, I will only go around the job the once but I do tell them that the dirt from the top frames may cause some marking (I don't say "spots" any more :) ) that won't be resolved until the next visit. I also explain why this is. I think that's pretty fair really. However, if someone states that they only want a one off clean, then I think it's fair to charge double - perhaps even a bit more if they are minging. It's a fair reflection of the extra time and effort needed when doing such a clean with WFP.
Mind you Squeaky, when I cleaned trad, if they wanted a regular service, I often didn't charge any extra unless the windows were in a really bad way.