Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: matt jones on January 30, 2007, 07:53:24 pm
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Hi guys,
Has anyone tried both of these products and if so which one worked the best i have used m-power but not nemesis?
matt
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Where can you buy Nemesis please?
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www.btowstore.com
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try here,
http://www.btowstore.com/epages/Store.sf/?ObjectPath=/Shops/15094
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Ta, so is this a MS?
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i've only just tried using m-power, but so far not that impressed with it at all, anyone else find the same? or am I just using it wrong??? I use an envirodry e-40 for aggitation, and the rinse is done using a t/m so not sure what I'm doing wrong! :'(
all the best
John
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try John Kelly.. www.restormate.co.uk
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John Rees
Funny you should say that. I wasnt impressed either. After trying it on a couple of jobs, I thought right, lets see whats better - MPower or traditional detergents?
I tested a mat using the same amount of hoovering, pre-spray (using diferent brushes) and the same HWE temp and amount of passes.
The left hand side was using detergents, the right MPower. The pics speak for themselves. Im no expert and no doubt someone will point out a flaw in my test, and Im sure its a good product. But, IMO I dont think I will be using it anymore.
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...
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What do you nemesis users use as a rinse?
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Water
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John, try calling the supplier for advice you may be using it wrong, you never know, little change can make big differences.
You didnt mention if you left it to dwell for example.
Dene
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Would'nt use either, even if someone paid me to do so.
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glad it's not only me then! ;D
all the best
john
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I have heard this before about mpower from numerous collegues but I really find it strange as I think it's exceptional. I know that you do use more prespray that you would do with conventional m/s and that the dwell time (at least 10 mins) and the dilution rate 1:120 (no more or no less) are equally important.
Will
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will, are you saying that a slight variation of dilution rate makes such a differnce?
a 100 to 1 wont get you results then, but 120 to1 will , I am sorry but I just cant swallow that , but if in fact this is the case , then in my opinion the product is not worth having. After all how many of us " if your been honest" measure to the degree of accuracy that the rate specifies ?
well not me :-[ . No doubt i shall now get slagged off for not sticking accuratly to the instructions ;D
Nemesis , I have tried and pleased with results, and use it in conjunction , on badly soiled carpets,
M/p not tried yet so cannot comment, but am waiting to hear of results from some body near to me who I believe is trying.
His opinion will be honest, and to the point, no girl thingy footing about , worring about upsetting suppliers etc . so for now i shall stick to nemesis :)
Geoff
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Well I was frightend to come on here & say anything, but the hype on the boards about M-power was way over the top and after trying out 2 jugs of the stuff I am convinced Microsplitters are better.
The nonesense being said that a fraction over/under 120-1 and it wont work is utter crap.
Phil
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I use M-Power at 100-1 all the time, no probs here.
Dene
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When I first purchased mpower a few months ago I was not impressed with the results as maybe my dilution rates were not as accurate as they could've been. I was then told by solutions to make sure it was 120:1 and it does seem to work better than a dilution rate of say 90:1 or 140:1. I am certainly not a cheer leader of mpower and have given it's pros and cons a number of times on this board.
I'm sure mpower works at all dilution rates but I was advised that it's at it's most potent at its prescribed dilution rate 120:1.
Best Rgds
Will
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Without looking at the label on the product does M power no advise a stronger mix for heavier soiled carpets?
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Just for info
I used it at the exact dilution rate specified and left them both to dwell for 19 mins. Surely someone has some views on my test?
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well m/s can be used at stronger rates , and at 1 to 1 i Believe as a spotter :-\
as for m/p I fail to see how , if apparently the wrong dilotion rate has a detrimental effect :-\
Cant seem to get my head around this one !!!!
Geoff
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Kev, the dwell may be too long if the mpower was allowed to dry, with mpower its recommended to give a very cursory second spray other the area if its dried up, i belive about 25% of what was initialy applied before extracting, i must admit ive found like must solutions it works better on some carpets than others, perhaps someone could repeat the test on three samples say Wool, Polyprop and an 80-20 mix this would give a more comprehenisve result. Also out of interest which Detergent based cleaner was used in the comparison?
Dene
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Kev, you say the results speak for themselves but I don't have any speakers on my computer so can't hear what they are saying :D :D
what would you say are the results of the test.
Mike
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Kev,
Dont get your test mate to me it looks like the right side (m-power) looks cleaner, yet i thought the point you were trying to make was that it didn't clean as well as detergants sorry if ive missed something here?
matt
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Side on left looks much cleaner on my screan
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Hi Guys,
Detergents and colloids (Mp & Nemesis) are both based on surfactants and will behave in a similar way.
http://www.chemsoc.org/chembytes/ezine/2003/hargreaves_jul03.htm
The difference is the detergent formulation will contain other ingredients such as phosphates, for example sodium tripolyphosphate found in MS.
A detergent formulation is going to be a mixture of MS and colloid .
In short colloids have their place but a detergent will be better balanced and have a wider and more effective cleaning spectrum.
I think a lot depends on how much time you are prepared to spend agitating prior to extraction , a surfactant is there to loosen the dirt prior to extraction and requires a lot less agitation than MS, but try agitating it the same as your MS and like Kev, I believe you will see excellent results.
The big Research and Development money is spent by the washing powder and dish washer chemical manufactures, ask yourselves why they use detergents .
Cheers
Doug
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guys
i have been testing nemises out and it looking good,
its like using number nine and just as good. i agree that the agitation is key,
i have been using it at 200:1, great value
Respect
Ian Harper
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Doug the big companies dont always give you whats best some times they give you whats best for them, how many times have you heard the stories that someone has come up with a replacement for Petrol only that one of the big oil companies bought the patent and made it disapear?
By the way i use both M Power and Detergents.
Dene
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the alternative petrol engine is just an urban myth,
if colloid cleaners worked better than normal detergents then the washing powder companies would use them, concidering at the moment they are pushing washing clothes at 30 degrees to save energy, imagine if they could say wash your clothes in cold water which is said about the new colloid cleaners.
Mike
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I don't endorse the cold water theory. The molecules in water jump about when heated. This creates extra agitation. Also using hot water must enhance the drying of the carpet due to increased evaporation. They might work well with cold water but you won't find me using it.
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Mike would they even use them if they cost 100 times the cost to produce, then they have to change all thier manufacturing set up which could cost hundreds of millions, im not saying i know that it would cost 100 times to produce coloids im just speaking hypothetically?
Again i use both so im not chiseling my name on either or but just playing devils adovcate afterall if you dont ask you dont find out.
I take you arent a fan of Coloids then Mike?
Dene
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Or hemeroids ?
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Kev, the dwell may be too long if the mpower was allowed to dry, with mpower its recommended to give a very cursory second spray other the area if its dried up, i belive about 25% of what was initialy applied before extracting, i must admit ive found like must solutions it works better on some carpets than others, perhaps someone could repeat the test on three samples say Wool, Polyprop and an 80-20 mix this would give a more comprehenisve result. Also out of interest which Detergent based cleaner was used in the comparison?
Dene
Well I dont think it was too long. I pre-sprayed very liberally making sure the side I treated with it was nice and wet (the same with the detergent side). The detergent used was traffic lane de-greaser mixed with Ultrapac.
Kev,
Dont get your test mate to me it looks like the right side (m-power) looks cleaner, yet i thought the point you were trying to make was that it didn't clean as well as detergants sorry if ive missed something here?
matt
Er, I think the left side is cleaner, have you got a dodgy screen? To be honest I gave the dirtier side to the detergent. If I would have done it the other way around people would have moaned ::)
Kev, you say the results speak for themselves but I don't have any speakers on my computer so can't hear what they are saying :D :D
what would you say are the results of the test.
Mike
That the MPower hasnt impressed me! nothing really scientific Mike :P
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Hi Guys,
One of the benefits of going back to the basic science and cutting through the sales bull is we can understand which claims are likely to be true and which are not.
A colloid is a surfactant based product as is a detergent, so no need to retool significantly.
As John says 'molecules jump around more when warmer,'this is basic science and can be proved mathematically, the faster the molecules are moving the higher the probability of them bumping into each other and reacting.
Also water obviously evapourates quicker as temp increases, assuming RH is constant, as the molecules have more energy to break the hydrogen bonds etc.
As Mike says the Petrol one is a myth, there is an almost unlimited source of energy in hydrogen fusion but this is many years away.
From a practical point of view do what Kev has done and compare side by side.
Cheers
Doug
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Mpower is marketed as a Green Cleaner, but what evidence is there that the detergents we use harm the planet, children etc.
Is this not just a marketing ploy by cleaners who like a Green Background on their website.
If it was serious Big Brother Europe would be telling us not to use them , in the same way they are doing regarding putting rubbish in landfill
PS do not put your Mpower container in your domestic bin it is trade waste and you could receive a fixed penalty fine of £50 in the post.
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All interesting stuff, i hear Both M-Power and Nemisis have been reformulated, so i for one with be test both again.
Ill be happy to share the results
Dene
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Ian, these products were invented in the early 70's. They are made from plant extracts. Obviously someone i.e. farmers have to grow these plants to enable the extracts to be processed. They would only do this if it was economically viable.
This is the reason these products are now being manufactured on a larger scale. They have become viable because of legislation and directives by governments and large companies deciding to go down the green route. The EU is currently testing every chemical in everyday use. It is likely some of these may be banned in future, there is already a long list.
One major transport group is already using nemesis to clean their vehicles, depots floors etc. Their staff are reporting major benefits because they don't have to wear rubber gloves now, which used to make their hands sweat and cause keens etc.
They are an alternative product and would be ideal for anyone who had a job where it was specified a safe eco product had to be used.
There are many others and there is still a huge market for traditional detergents which I still use, AND SELL!
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Just got some Nemesis but i think i may send it back!
So if it works differently to detergents are the results different, or is it a case of it works well on some things and detergents on others?
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Is it poss to have a free sample of nemisis i will then conduct the test between m-power and nemises as that was what this post was about originally. I think free samples show great confidence from a supplier that there product actually works because if the customer gets great results he will surely place an order for more anyway and carry on using that product unless something better comes along. I was lucky enough to get a free sample of m-power which i still havent ran out of yet.
matt
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I'm waiting for "Super Nemesis",... due mid Feb according to John!
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Wasting your time with both of these products, why not just run the tap at your home, its a lot cheaper than paying some courier to lug gallons of water around, not to mention paying for the stuff.
It doesn't work it never has done it never will do, why don't the Americans use micro splitters. Because they know more about this trade than any of us daft English, and they snubbed the whole concept.
You'd be better of rubbing the carpet down with an oily rag that's just been used on the engine from a morris traveller, the results would be about the same as micro splitters.
When will you people ever learn, am I going to have to do a road show in order for you to listen to me.
Waste of time, money, energy, life, moral etc etc..
Matt
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Holy cow batman!!!... The water in these parts must be gooooooooood cause I'm getting a lot of referrals from customers who are both delighted but kinda confused as to how good their carpet looks after I have sprinkled some magic water over them. Christ i hope Im not possessed by evil.!!
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i have used M Power, it is poor in my experience, i have 60 litres of it in my warehouse i am trying to get rid of in anyone wants any (sorry 58.5, i did try it) TWICE
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CleanChoice,
Your quite safe to tip it down a drain. I had two 25 Litres drums of Solution number 2, called Yorkshire water to ask how I could have disposed of such a large quantity, after telling them what the stuff contained they just told me to tip it.
Mine went down the kitchen sink no problem.
Pete
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american Microsplitter( I think)
http://www.procyonrx.com/
and colliods are widely used in the USA, thats where the british ones originate from (either imported or copied)
mike
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Hi Guys,
Mike makes a valid point as usual, it would be interesting to see what the latest products are on the US boards.
My point about detergents is that they have been very effective cleaning agents for a long period, and that the likelyhood of a completely new super product coming along are remote.
Enzymes were probably the last great breakthrough but as we know have side effects.
Colloids like MS have their place .
One thing I learned in 8 years as an R&D Chemist was that many breakthroughs were in fact old products revamped or variations of.
The marketing/sales boys would often claim to have amazing new products, but a phone call to the technical boys would normally lead to an admission of slightly less glamour, afterall it was us technical guys with production who actually had to make them work.
Cheers
Doug
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Matt you are making yourslef look daft mate, if you said "Colliods arent as good as detergents" then you have a constructive argument, but by makeing such a sweeping statement as "they dont work, never did, never will" you just look like you havent got a clue, let me give you an example as to why i know that colliods work
We just finished an office clean, i noticed a square patch that didnt look as good as the rest and couldn't understand why as it had all been cleaned the same, anyway i went to fill up the sprayer and noticed that the measuring cup sat on the side with solution in allready measued out, it turns out that it had not been put in the spray last time, so i filled the sprayer re-applied to the area in question and hey presto clean capret. So if colliods are tap water or only as good as tap water, you will have to explain what happended there.
As i said before i too use detergents so im not biased, i can understand if you have a preference to a particluar prodcut we all do but dont make sweeping statements that make you look like you havent got a clue. This will also discourage other people not to use them who would possibly benefit greatly.
Long Live Microsplitters, Coliods & Detergents they are all great in different ways.
Dene
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i brought some mpower friday and told the bloke on the phone that someone in chetnam had 60 liters of it. he said noone had ever bought that much in one go thats 12 5liter bottles so hes talking bs.
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How strong is Nemesis, can it be used as a spotter?
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How strong is Nemesis, can it be used as a spotter?
Dilute it 20-1 for spotting
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The problem is guys is that some of you who say this and that doesn't work are talking cxxp. Its usually just guessing on something which you haven't tried so how can you voice an opiniun, or its due to operator error not mixing the correct dilution rates do as it says on the tin compare to other chemicals/solutions that you use and then and only then will you see what works for yourselfs and will be able to comment.
matt
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ianPucket are you saying Cleanchoicechelt is a liar :o :o
like he said he has 58.5 lts for sale and has tried it twice.
in the 2 times he tried it he used 1.5 lts, as it dilutes 120-1 he used 180lts of prespray on the '2' jobs he tried it, I wish I could get jobs that size!!
how big do jobs have to be to use 180lts of pre-spray? ;D ;D ;D
Mike
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Nice one Mike
It pes me of when people have a pop about something just for the sake of it instead of simply trying something themselves, it not only rubbishes everyone that uses these products but also negates them as a selection for newbies who may miss out on something that may work really well for them.
Why would anyone buy 60 litles of mpower to try out? that in itself proves its a porkie.
Dene