Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: mark f on January 17, 2007, 11:41:52 am
-
There has been a lot of talk on this forum about an impending crackdown on improper ladder usage, especially with window cleaners in mind.
Now i am up and running wfp but was hoping to ween it in gradually. How did this rumour get started?? Has anyone first hand evidence of this?? Or is it just a rumour.
Usually an hse campaign is announced on thier web site in advance. I know a couple on this forum are very vocal about this and just wanted to get to the source.
If true it is a handy piece of ammunition with the customers!! :D
-
If they really want to enforce it, they should at least come forward with a bit of financial help, not everyone has £1500 to spend on a wfp system!!
I want to, yes please, but at this very moment, I have no money for it!
Let's just say that if you send them the bill of equipment, they refund £500 or so. Probably never gonna happen, but that is what is fair if they want to stop ladder usage.
-
I agree to! there not going to go around everyone trying to stop them going up a ladder! they never will mayb on big commecial propertys or even other trades such as roofers etc.
I am not wfp yet but hope to move into this before next winter hits us! but it all comes down to money and i carnt afford it either at the moment. Also they carnt expect you just to go out and spend tuns of money just like that for example the cheapest setup would be around about £1000 ano cheaper if your doing a DIY but not everyone can!
Dave
-
In my experience, this just is not quite how the HSE enforce legislation.
From experience of growing up in businesses what they are looking for is the sort of person who fits the "Waiting for it to happen" catagory (like the pic of over stretching we saw earlier this week) and at the same time concentrate on improving those that are already doing something.
So for instance, a HSE does spot checks and spots a window cleaner. He goes up to him and checks first that the ladder is in good order. I am sure we all know long standing window cleaners that have nightmare ladders. Then they will look to see if any fall prevention equipment is being used, such as a M8rix and mitts which does seem to prevent the ladder moving. They then will check that you have injury prevention equipment such as a hard hat.
This obviously is not the exact way they will work, but it is the sort of thing they do. Depending on how many of these things you fail on is what splits the "stop working now" orders from the "I will be back in a month or so to see that you have done what I say".
I should think they will want to keep driving the figure down. It is all about statistics. If window cleaners keep falling off ladders and injuring themselves no matter what then eventually ladders will be phased out by the cleaners from being used for cleaning windows. I don't think that will happen for a long time though, the HSE will want to show how it has been able to enforce a policy and reduced deaths and injury year on year.
In the long run, with reductions in WFP prices and a greater emphasis on personal protection equipment for those who do work on ladders, it will become unviable to use a ladder, espcially if just starting out. The cost of safey equipment will be more than the cost of WFP. Basically it will be the big boys that can afford to use a squeegy at height and the rest of us will be using a pole.
-
As I said to the person how made this rumour! on here, if true or not, will it make any difference!
Andy
-
We call ourselves Professional window cleaners , yet cant afford £1000. I am not getting involved in a trad/WFP argument, but do recall the thread about a firm getting fined for not using a ladder legally and costing him about £9000. I think a lot of it is a safety issue and the the other is to stop the cowboys/dole boys.
But as a business, with very, very low overheads £1000 is nothing compred to other businesses, our other business is a high street dry cleaners and we have to invest about £300,000 in a shop and equipment,plus staff and rates etc, so window cleaning is dirt cheap. Plus we have to be registred and this cost probably more than £1000per year.
idealrob
-
There has been a lot of talk on this forum about an impending crackdown on improper ladder usage, especially with window cleaners in mind.
Now i am up and running wfp but was hoping to ween it in gradually. How did this rumour get started?? Has anyone first hand evidence of this?? Or is it just a rumour.
Usually an hse campaign is announced on thier web site in advance. I know a couple on this forum are very vocal about this and just wanted to get to the source.
If true it is a handy piece of ammunition with the customers!! :D
That's odd!! Loads of guys have been consistently gobbing-off about how the HSE are poised to ban the use of ladders. Yet when asked to show some evidence of this they suddenly go all quiet ???
-
Who would it enforce it for us (domestic)? Local Trading standards?
How they work is if they get a success they put it in the paper. Their perspective might be protecting and warning the customers of their liabilities, and responsibilities, and get in touch if you have any concerns.
-
Hi,
There’s an article in today’s Daily Express (Page 22 - 18/1/07) about firemen being banned from using step ladders for fitting smoke alarms in people’s houses under the Working at Height Regs 2005.
The ball is now rolling and I'm sure this will get more media coverage but it does make you wonder if all this H&S stuff has gone to crazy extremes.
Not that I'm anti H&S as I have a NEBOSH qualification but I have also got a common sense outlook on these issues.
What did we do before all these rules eh? ::)
Steve
-
And in the Daily Mail:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=429565&in_page_id=1770
-
I've read the article and it's saying not to use "other peoples stepladders" which is fair enough. Presumably if the fireman brought his own steps it's ok.
But the question was: Where can I read with my own eyes that the HSE is poised to ban the use of ladders? I've trawled through the HSE's site and can't find anything to this effect. So I'm wondering where certain people are getting their information from.
-
My personnal opion is that ladders will not be banned, but the rules will be made more clearer as at present they are not. This is just my thought but ladders will not be banned but you will only be able to use them for x hrs/ mins.
Just my veiw.
Doug
-
There's an artical in the PWC mag, (nov & dec) on this & it states some where that local authorities will be clamping down on window cleaners in the spring.
I was talking to some one & he said he knows there going to clamp down in my area. I'm sorry for some of the trad boys as many of them use ladders safely but its good news for me.
Macc
-
If "clamping down" means spot-checking that w/c's ladders are safe for the job and being used properly then that's all to the good. But that's a far cry from banning the use of them. What the HSE are planning to do is bring in new guidelines within WAHR to " raise awareness of the risks associated with ladder use and to give advice on how to use ladders safely". Again it says absolutely nothing (and doesn't even hint) about banning the use of them.
It seems to me that somebody started this ladder ban rumour and certain wfp guys have jumped onto the bandwagon and none of them can provide a shred official evidence to support it.
-
heres the two factual pieces of evidence i know of with regard to hse action.
A friend of mine was filling his tank up and two men walked up the drive and they were hse inspectors checking up on window cleaners. They got his address from yellow pages. They checked his gear and insurances. They told him to throw a ladder away. Told him he needs a ladder register showing inspections etc. Then they asked to go to work with him and watched him work with wfp. They said they were working through all window cleaners in our area but never came back. Word spreads fast and many others have wfp now!
Another account. I was doing a house and a plumber pulled up to do a job. He said "how are you getting on using ladders?". To which i explained i was getting kitted out with wfp. He said his brother had stopped window cleaning in cambridge because had enough of h&s. He had a good round but got caught up a ladder and was fined by hse for unsafe use of a ladder. He wasnt sure of the exact reason ie no stability etc.
These two accounts are what i have experienced. Obviously the first one is more reliable. But maybe it is more of this kind of thing we can expect.?? :-\
-
I'm sure that both accounts are accurate and trad cleaners can expect more of this in the future from hse inspectors and maybe this is a good thing if it helps prevent nutters using bad ladders unsafely and end up killing themselves (not to mention falling onto some passer-by).
Also not just trad cleaners as I imagine that some wfp guys need to be monitored too (trip hazards, electric overhead cables and all that).
But as I say there's no evidence to show that the hse are planning to ban ladders altogether.
This is a rumour probably started by some company that flogs wfp gear.
-
This company also employs guys dressed up as HSE inspectors ;D ;D
-
This company also employs guys dressed up as HSE inspectors ;D ;D
Yeah black capes and 3" fangs ;D
-
from what my mate said they were seriously up themselves.
-
when he threw the ladder away did he notice 2 guys in suits strapping it to te roof of their van
-
it will i guess be enforced by your local council people
having worked foe councils in the past, we wont have to worry much intill we have to clean windows on the council offices, as they dont venture out much ( apart from a spot of lunch in the pub ;))
the cost debate shouldnt come into the discussion, its easy enough to build a system for 500 quid these days ( e.mail me for the DIY link, if you havent seen it ) it doesnt matter if you work out of a car or van, you can build it to suit your circumstances
seriously, this is why the DIY site was started, to let people ( like myself ) who couldnt / wouldnt spend silly money on a "pro built system" , Hell its all componants put together, they are all the same bits, you either let some1 else put them together and pay them for the job, or you do it yourself
-
It's a good job that people like you Matt and Mr Brinble, and Jeff exist. You are really good guys. Everyone has looked on your site at one time and another and pinched ideas.
To repeat what I said earlier about H&S I would expect trading standards to appeal to consumers. Is your window cleaner legal, is he insured, could you get sued if he falls off your house?
The people who go around biulding sites already have their hands full. I am involved in something else and the trading standards attack us without mercy. I live in dread of being on the front of my local paper.
-
I think it's best to deal with fact and not rumour and to ignore what newspapers say simply because all they want is a story for profit and will slant it anyway they see fit.
It's the same with any business that has a vested interest in WFP. They also tell part of a story. I read one advert by a well known wfp company that showed a window cleaner using a ladder to clean windows and underneath was written 'be legal, not stupid'.
It is legal to use ladders within the WAHR's. I don't use ladders much now but I'll wait untill the law says 'no ladders under any circumstances' before concerning myself over what may or may not be.
Also, window cleaners aren't the only ones who use ladders.
Cheers
-
Recent Government sponsored adverts and press releases suggest. If you work on a Market, you're a benfits cheat, If you want dodgy DVD's this is the place to buy them from, the counterfeiter you buy them off is also involved in terrorism drugs and people smuggling.
You must have seen the short films at the beginning of DVDS, even in Scotland.
(No I don't sell DVD's, fake or otherwise.)