Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jeff1 on December 22, 2006, 12:45:28 pm
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reading a topic on freezing water by mark f and there was a reply by chris cottrel, that got me thinking about grey area's for us again regarding HSE.
Now my own thoughts on this is, if you have just cleaned the windows, the ground is still wet and you put down your grit/salt, now when you put down the grit the ground is wet and not frozen, so are you taking preventative measures to stop someone slipping or admitting liability for your actions if someone slips,
we all know there out there looking for an excuse to sue us?
Don't the local councils take preventative measures on our main roads, don't HSE make us all take preventative measures. so my question is are we liable ???
Here is chris's quote:-
Be mindful when putting down grit that you are acknowledging that there is a hazard present and if someone slips over that you can still be held responsible
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You have shown you have done your best, be honest with you if your going to work where water might freeze then its very easy to turn down the flow at the head so that the water does not run on to the ground ;)
Andy
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by putting down salt/grit onto just wet ground you are then taking preventative measires to stop that area freezing. If the ground was already frozen, the salt/grit would start to melt this down, but would suggest that if ground already frozen, maybe it is just a little too cold to be WFP'ng
Merry Xmas
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i dont know!! this wfp lark is a right head ache. :-\ Ive always thought h&s meant i should be looking after other people more than myself. But with wfp its almost like im alright but you can trip over my hose or slip on my ice and have spotty windows.
sorry. having a bad day. did my house with wfp and it looks a dog. Wonder what the customers look like!
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i dont know!! this wfp lark is a right head ache. :-\ Ive always thought h&s meant i should be looking after other people more than myself. But with wfp its almost like im alright but you can trip over my hose or slip on my ice and have spotty windows.
sorry. having a bad day. did my house with wfp and it looks a dog. Wonder what the customers look like!
Mark Put your feet up for a couple of days and have a few beers, the guy's tell me it will come good and I'm sure it will for you to. Merry christmas to you. ;)
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You have shown you have done your best, be honest with you if your going to work where water might freeze then its very easy to turn down the flow at the head so that the water does not run on to the ground ;)
Andy
All of the above is very true if you create the ice you put down salt simple (as indeed do I ) but as I was quoted as saying "you are acknowledging that there is a hazard present " and although you will have done all you can if some old bird slips it will be hard to say nowt to do with me could have frozen later after you washed your car love !!!!
Chris
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I put down salt and tell the owners thatit is there. That way I feel that I have taken preventive measures regarding the possibility of ice forming and they know its there and know to be carefull.
The quote from andy saying to turn down the flow to prevent the water from running onto the ground, You still need to rinse well otherwise there is no point in using the wfp. I am still pretty green to this wfp lark but to reduce the flow and risk not rinsing properly seems daft as you will be wasting your time and effort.
Ant
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you don't necessarily need a high flow rate, I use around 1 to 1.25 lpm on average but if I need to i could get by temporarily on 0.5 to 0.75 lpm for a few windows Its not unusable
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Fair enough. ;D
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I can see you point, but end of the day the water was put there by the WFP user and if it freezes and then someone slips and sues, then its better you put git down so they dont slip and sue in the 1st place ;)
Andy
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Then is it not pointless putting out signs to say window cleaner at work, if someone falls over the hose and you have out your signs, then its pointless having them if they can still sue us. as I said before more grey area's for us to sort out.
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Not grey, your have to warn the public, 1st rule of health & safety, you cant say why bother - it does work like that!
Andy
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basically if a person slips and you have took precautions ie signs and salt you can still be sued but the amount sued would be less as the person who fell has to take some proportion of the blame also if precautions are took then you cant face a criminal prosecution because you have tried your best to follow health and safety law.
the grey areas seem to get greyer and greyer the more laws they make.
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reading a topic on freezing water by mark f and there was a reply by chris cottrel, that got me thinking about grey area's for us again regarding HSE.
Now my own thoughts on this is, if you have just cleaned the windows, the ground is still wet and you put down your grit/salt, now when you put down the grit the ground is wet and not frozen, so are you taking preventative measures to stop someone slipping or admitting liability for your actions if someone slips,
we all know there out there looking for an excuse to sue us?
Don't the local councils take preventative measures on our main roads, don't HSE make us all take preventative measures. so my question is are we liable ???
dont do com areas
Here is chris's quote:-
Be mindful when putting down grit that you are acknowledging that there is a hazard present and if someone slips over that you can still be held responsible
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If it's likely to get that cold then we don't use wfp and that's it. The potential for problems especially with commercial customers is just to great as they will want to off load responsibility whether salt or grit gets put down or not. The chances are they will have more time and resources than us in terms of legal action.
For domestic customers, we abandoned wfp (and them) during the summer as the complaints were not worth the hassle in terms of what other work options we had so I can't really comment on that aspect. I must stress that I'm not knocking wfp as we use it but it that if you can do a job where there is no chance of complaint as opposed to a possibility, what one would you choose?
Anyway, where we work, the days where it gets that cold can be numbered on one hand so I see it as a day off. ;D
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If the water is likely to free using WFP i use my ladders and clean traditional.
I would rather do this than use grit and someone slip over on it and break a leg or something.
Paul
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I usually use rock salt which seems fine. Sometimes I use a spray bottle with an alcohol based solution. It's not often such things are needed here in the south but I carry both items in winter just in case.
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No your right paul its not often we need anything down here.
That alcohol based solution sounds good though.
Paul
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If I slipped on unexpected gravel left by a window cleaner I'd sue the b'stard.
Use a squeegee and do it properly.
If I get wfp I won't use it in the high street.
Far too much of a liability. ::)
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No your right paul its not often we need anything down here.
That alcohol based solution sounds good though.
Paul
Forgot to mention that I also carry a floor squeegee to clear any water that may land in porchways.
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No your right paul its not often we need anything down here.
That alcohol based solution sounds good though.
Paul
Forgot to mention that I also carry a floor squeegee to clear any water that may land in porchways.
Good idea that one.
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I've used the road salt, it adds to your grip, it doesn't detract from, I've even tried to slip on it on purpose, doesn't happen, it just scrunches up.
I wouldn't put up a ladder with any kind of grit on the floor, but as far as walking on the stuff goes it is fine.
If we have snow, or if the roads and pavements ice up, the council will spread grit on both the roads and pavements.
If the roads are gritted, the grit doens't just stay on the road, it also sprays over the pavement too, so the odds are that if you have used road salt, so have the council, apportioning blame isn't going to be easy if someone does slip, and what if the slip was because of something else?
It's all very well saying you have tripped over because of salt on the floor, proving it is something else again.
Try suing the council if your car wheel has slammed into a pothole and caused damage, the pothole is there big and bold, but producing the evidence is no easy matter.
Ditto if you trip over in a pot hole.
Just because you say you have been felled by this or that isn't enough, you really do need proof, and then of course you have to prove who exactly is at fault.
Sorry, I've really wandered off topic there a little I know, but there are always other factors involved on pavement trips and falls.
I've almost gone arse over top because I've stood on a wet drainhole cover, ditto because I walked into a shop with wet feet (nothing to do with WFP).
Do I claim that it is the shops fault for not having anti slip flooring? Or maybe there was something else on the floor that made it slippy, perhaps the cleaning had to much soap in his/her bucket when the floor was mopped?
Maybe the soles on my footwear had worn smooth.
And so on and so on.
Road salt isn't like ball bearings, we'd have cars flying of the road left right and centre if it was.
Ian
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Good point Ian.
I think it would be almost impossible to sue the council,once the court heard they had taken all preventative steps to stop someone slipping.
I think the same thing would happen, if we could show we also had taken preventative measures to prevent someone slipping.
I have seen road salt and no way is it big enough to slip on.
thats why the council use it.