Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave_Lee on June 26, 2004, 01:59:58 am
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Hi All,
This is an item I have been reluctant to place on the board, however as I feel I have done nothing wrong but have still got a big problem, I have decided to share it with you all and hoprfully get some valuable feedback of similar experiences/ideas.
Basically two months ago I cleaned what I thought was a simple 3 piece suite, comprising small settee, chair of green cotton visc flat weave, and chair of acrylic pile in beige with multi coloured flecks.
Got a call to go back and have a look at it the other day.
The lady (a friend of the wifes) produced four arm type covers and a cushion which I didnt clean, in order to compare colour. These accessories were Green, the suite (98% of it) was brown with just the odd patch of the original green in a few places. I cant remember what the predominent colour was when I cleaned it - done a lot of other jobs since, but I know there was nothing out of the ordinary apparent whilst cleaning it.
She is adamant it was the same colour as the cushion etc and changed to Brown upon drying out. The Acrylic chair was unafected by any change.
For the first time in 25 years I was dumfounded, I simply did not have an explanation for it. Explored all the possibilities of fading etc. but she was still sticking to her guns about it being as green as the cushion before cleaning, but dried out Brown.
I took away two arm covers, and thoroughly and agressively cleaned one of them in three cleaning stripes, using the microsplitter that I had used on the day with the same water rinse, another stripe of concentrated alkaline detergent and another of a strong prespray with detergent rinse. All concentrated solutions, trying my best to get a reaction. Result a lovely clean arm cover with no colour loss or change whatsoever.
Even the back of the settee which I literally hardly touched - Just a very light pre spray and quick rinse off was completely brown apart from a very small flash of green on the fabric covered feet.
The only thing I can come up with is that it was a faulty fabric. Now 7 years old, never been cleaned before.
Obviously as a professional I have to deal with this problem, but I am still baffled as to the cause - ANY ideas or similar experiences appreciated.
Dave.
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I would be suspicious she is not giving you the full story. Could the suite have faded over the years, I have come accross fading in suites many times as I am sure every other cleaner has too. I would seek a second opinion here before proceeding any further.
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Hi Dave
Do you have any photographs of the suite?
If you clean and treat the remaining green patches would they turn brown?
Is the suite recovered with the original fabric still underneath, that may contain a loose dye?
Viscose can tend to be susceptable to losing its colour, and I have seen the green pigments fading and showing more of a grubby fawn natural colour remaining.
Are the patches of green left in any way in line shapes that could be attributed t missed areas of the hand tool, or are they oval or round patches?
Regards
Robert Olifent
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hi
its very interesting
and to be honest like you say its difficult to discuss.
i had a similar experience,but the client did say after that the suite was second hand, and i had my suspicions that the arms had been spray painted!!!.
regards.brian
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Thanks for all replies to date. I will try to pst some photos on 'Cleantalk' board.
The remaining green is very faint in blotches with a more concentrated green area in certain normally covered up areas, though not all like the fabric on the main frame underneath the seat and back cushions. This is why its confusing, if the green remained on most of the covered parts, it would be easy to explain it away as UV fading. However its gone on most of these areas too.
Ill post the pictures.
Dave.
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Hi Dave,
I have not contributed earlier because I had nothing usefull to contribute above what Robert has already written.
I largely discounted UV fading as this normally effects the lower-frequency colours first - the red pigment in brown fading to produce green - the opposite of what has happened here.
Off-gassing from degrading foam padding can (rarely) have an effect on surface pigmentation especially on reconstituted natural fibres, which are comparatively gas-absorbent and tend to accept and surrender dyes readily. However this effect varies with proximity to the foam and tends to have greater effect where the gasses are traped. Phenolic yellowing would tend to 'brown' green dyes. Yet the situation you describe does not match up with this situation.
Though the test clean proceedure on the arm caps was a sensible experiment, if the have spent thier live in a cupboard, not subjected to the same environmental influences as the remainder of the suite, the results cannot be considered conclusive.
Sorry that all of the above is negative, some of it may serve to trigger a train of thought that may, hopefully, result in a more positive posting from someone.
( DB jumps out of bath with a cry of "Eurika !!!" )
Good luck with it,
John.
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Hi John
Not quite Eureka....isn't that the Swedish girl?
The description needs to be clarified...is it in fact viscose rayon?
If so then it will retain a great deal of moisture which can cause browning, wicking and all the rest..
However I did come across some furniture a few years ago where a 'friendly' upholsterer had used a black cotton lining beneath the fabric which ran like blazes. Totally unfit for the purpose...when questioned why he had used black instead if the customery off-white... he said..."it was cheaper"....NUFF Said!
Pictures may help
Cheers
Derek
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Thanks Derek,
I should add that on the seat and back cushions where I was able to unzip and inspect the underside of the fabric (Where affected by colour loss) this side too was devoid of green colouring.
The more I think about it - if she had not produced these arm covers and cushion, I would have definetly put it down to colour change due to fading. I hate to think it especially as she is a freind of my wifes, but I think, as has been mentioned she is not only not telling the whole storey but adding to it as she goes along.
It would be a simple matter to put it in the hands of my insurance company, but I dont see why I should at this stage anyway.
I suggested to her that a Sample of unafected fabric that I had not cleaned was sent for special analysis to find if the colours were faulty or especially prone to changes, with the loser footing the bill. She didnt want to do that as she had paid for the cleaning, if she lost she would have to pay for the investigation and shes still left with a brown suite. More and more I feel Im dealing with one of lifes Victims and very soon were going to fall out. I hold my hands up when Im wrong but Ill defend myself to the limit when Im falsely accused.
Derek, do you think if I reclean the areas that are unafected, and if they dont turn Brown, then that will prove my point that the cleaning itself is not to blame for the colour loss?
Dave.
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Dave
It is extremely difficult to give a complete diagnosis without seeing the problem.
Those of us as old as John ;) will remember the viscose fabrics some years ago which were woven on a dark backing fabric which released colour on many occasions.
If you wish you could send me a private message with your telephone number and I can give you a call to talk it through.
Cheers
Derek
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Hah hah!
I have just seen the pictures that you have posted on another forum.
I can see more clearly what we are dealing with here.. I have a feeling that we may be dealing with a cellulosic problem.
We need to talk
Derek
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Hi Dave
Was it 2 months before she noticed the change and called you?
Was the discolouration apparent directly after cleaning or 2 months later?
It just seems a long time to leave things before complaining!
Regards
Robert
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Hi Dave,
Derek spelt eurika entirely with "h"es and "a"s but I think he's right (again), especially since the green in the band-pattern seems un-affected.
I can't help but think that had the other, uncleaned, articles not been available, you would have had a happy customer :(
John.
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If the consensus is that this is a cellulosic problem - or even if it could be without saying that it is - I for one would appreciate advice on not running into myself.
Dave has mentioned that he was using a cfr tool and being very experienced I'm sure that he would have taken reasonable measures to try and prevent such problems.
Perhaps the response to my question could be posted as a separate thread so as not imply what this actual problem is or isn't (liability etc).
Cheers
Steve.
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dave
what detergent did you use in your rinsing process when cleaning the suite .
Lee
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Dave just to put a bit of a twist to this, being in your area and advertising in the same yp under cleaning chemicals and cc chemicals, i get asked on a regular basis for stainguard as the customer has just had their suite cleaned and they want to buy some stainguard, i expect that this is not the case as most pro ccs such as yourself offer this service anyway, however it may be worth checking that she hasn`t been watching the programme "dont try this at home"
regards Dave
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Just to add to my last post no we dont sell to the public
Regards Dave
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Lee,
Bearing in mind I didnt get the call for another two months afterwards, to be honest Im sure it was just plain water. Sometimes even when pre spraying with a microsplitter I may rinse with a very diluted Ulltimate master, but this would only be on a very greasy suite. This siute was only average soiled - no ingrasined grease or even head stains, so Im sure it was just a water rinse. If the cleaning solution caused the problem why didnt it affect the arm cover that I deliberatly tried to fade/brown etc.
Like I said never come across anything like it in 25 years.
Dave.
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Hi Dave
I have seen similar discoloured Rayon flatweave fabrics, but this has been mainly due to general wear & light exposure so I am still a little miffed with the unusual surrounding circumstances.
There seems to me to be a number of considerations here, and to use the process of illimination is often the best way forward in identifying the problem:
1. The client 'may' not be telling the truth, regarding the original faded nature of the suite The question also needs to be asked why were the other cushions held back from being cleaned, and why 2 months before the complaint?
2. Was something else used within the cleaning process like the Oxibright & Fibrebuff (or other lightening agents).
3. High temperature?
4. Solvent formulated pre-spray cleaning agents.
5. Optical Brightners encouraging photobleaching over a period of time following the cleaning.
6. Cellosic browning is a potential problem on Viscose/Rayon but often this would not 'usually' appear perfectly uniform over the fabric as seems to be the case here.
7. High alkalinity.
Note, it is 'in general' understood that viscose/Rayon does not hold on to its dyes as fast as many other types of fibre.
8. If the fabric had faded due to photo bleaching then you would usually see significant differences in the exposed and unexposed areas of fabric.
The Green leaf pattern seems to have retained its colour, this would suggest that the fibre content of these sections are possibly cotton or of a synthetic nature that is faster than the Rayon fibre content.
Sorry no diffinative answer, but reasonable considerations for any person inspecting to bear in mind, in determining the cause.
I hope that helps
Regards
Robert Olifent
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Dave, I have wrestled and wondered about this sort of thing also, over the years.
It does not appear to be a case of indicator dye as the whole piece would have changed colour.
It is not a case of poor dyestuffs or inappropriate Pre-Spray as again the whole piece would have changed.
It does not appear to be cellulosic browning either - wrong shape and tests done.
It is not a case of sun fading or weakening the dye as usually there is are definite areas that are always in the shade and others that are not. I have however seen extreme colour loss in sun-faded fabrics but ONLY in the slightly areas that were slightly faded, prior to cleaning. Which brings me to my theory on the answer to your riddle.
We know that certain things will weaken otherwise godd dyestuffs. They are sunlight, wear and perspiration.
I believe that the standard advice to test for colour stability in a hidden area along a zipper, is poor advice for this reason.
In both these pictures the fabric passed the standard colour bleed tests. But......note where the colours ran.
In both cases, in high wear/perpiration locations and nowhere else.
(http://www.cleaning.sytes.net/pics/ArianaBleeder%20B4.jpg)
(http://www.cleaning.sytes.net/pics/BleederArmB4.jpg)
can view here
ftp://cleaning.sytes.net/ArianaBleeder%20B4.jpg
ftp://cleaning.sytes.net/BleederArmB4.jpg
Comments please.
We are all in this boat together and any help will be appreciated.
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Harry
I stand by my previous posts on this subject although it is difficult to give any accurate diagnosis from the photographs... you need to see it
pH sensitive dyes changing do not necessarily provide uniform stains...the ones I have been dealing with over the last few months for people have been far from uniform
Cheers
Derek
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Hi All,
Thought those of you who may have been interested in this subject, should have an update.
I never did find out why the suite changed colour, though I'm almost certain it was due to an unstable dye in the fabric being removed, when cleaned. All the de-brown treatments made no difference, and this to me is why I can rule out cellulosic browning.
Anyway, finally gave in - I put it in the hands of my insurance company and they are going to replace it with a new, like for like. My excess is £250, so not exactly jumping through hoops. My first claim for anything of this nature since I started nearly 25 ago. Could have cost a lot more had I not been insured - Get the message.
Dave.
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Dave
Could you get me a damaged cushion cover please...I would love to have a look at this fabric ...I have a lovely rogues gallery of problem fabrics that I have collected from various sources over the years and it is by obtaining these and working on them that I have managed to find solutions to some of the problems
Cheers
Derekl
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Hi,
Technical information apart, the 2 month gap screams out to me that she's trying it on.
Check with your insurance company what their response would be if they were to be called in. I suspect that the amount of time allowed to lapse before initial complaint would go against any claim that she made against you.
If it was a genuine fault with your service, any customer would surely be on the phone straight away.
BFN
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Dave
If insurance is replacing it so in effect you now own it :'(
If you can be bothered, id get round and pull it out the day the new suite is delivered and get the fabric looked at and checked over by some like Derek.
Then again you might want to put the whole affair behind you and just move on ;)
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Woodman,
You are dead right with your last para.
I may however speak to the insurance company regarding the offending suite, could always light a big bonfire with it, after Ive removed Dereks cushion cover of course.
Dave.
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Dave
BFN has a point!
I was once in a predicament called in the experts It was my fault so I paid up, but have a friend who I went to court with over a rug it was thrown out due to the credibility of the person who wrote a report on it.
If I were you, I would pass the piece on to Derek and let him have a look; it can’t do any harm if just for peace of mind. Then I would fight if I were proven right then I’m an Aries. ;D ;D
Len
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Doesn't the insurance co now own it ?
Dave could probably get it off them for free though.
Glynn
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Guys
I am sure that we have all been in a situation such as this at some point and you are right...we just want to move on.
I have an enquiring mind and a lot of our problems stem from manufacturers changing the chemical processes during manufacture... I feel it is important that if we can we find out just what is causing the problem so that at the very least we can avoid it on the next occasion
Derek
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The final outcome:-
I evenually put it in the hands of my insurance company, and basically they settled. They based the settlement figure on their policy of reinstatement to the position, as it was before the item was cleaned.
The replacement quote as supplied by the client was £1850 thereabouts, they deducted 6 years wear & tear and ended up at £1197 of which I have to pay £250.
Telephoned the client today and she has reluctantly agreed to accept this sum, provided she is allowed to keep the settee and chair, that is the subject of the claim.
Yes, I know what many will thinking, thought the same myself, so sorry Derek - no cushion cover I'm afraid.
Dave.
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Sorry it went this way.
Best to put it down to experience and move on :)
BF Nicky
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Dave,
I am sure you were as surprised at the offer made by the insurance company as I was. It seems unusually generous for a six-year old suite.
So now she spends a small part of the settlement on throws and pockets the balance.
The real villain of the piece gets off scot-free.
There, but for the grace of God.............................
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Guys and Gals
This is not an uncommon story...... The customer, who may well have a legitimate grievance, suddenly sees "NEW SUITE/CARPET" up in lights before their eyes.
All sense and reason goes out of the window in their relentless pursuit of this 'new' goal... and Yes, it was an extremely generous settlement
Derek