Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DASERVICES on December 09, 2006, 12:22:51 am
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I know you can get cheep insurance etc... which is good but the one main function that would get me to join is a recognised body that Mrs Jones will tell
everyone about.
Only one to date that is recognised is Corgi. very legit householder wil use a Corgi worker.
What will it take for each householder to use a recognised window cleaning association.
Thats what I would like to see, what would you.
Doug
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Reason gas fitters are Corgi reg is because they can kill there customers
And for a trade association to have a house hold / commercial brand would cost millions :-\
Andy
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d.a.i wouild like them to show us they are worth the money we put in to there company :)
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An organization that trully has the interest of window cleanners at heart.
My gripe with the fed is.
With many members you should have more buying power, ie if I would expect them to offer insurance a lot cheaper than I coulld purchase it on the street. Also equipment, but this is not the case.
To organiize course's for people to go on, [abselling, opperating cherry picker, foundation course's for new window cleanners, wfp courses, accountantcy,] the list goes on. I'm sure even if they had just a few days a year were you could attend they would bennefit us.
I would be willing to take a course on the basic window cleanning technique's.
Roy
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Hi Thomas
The fed do a corporate advert in all the yellow pages and i think it is £130 ish.
Steve
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I dont work over there yet but having participated in this forum for a while I cannot understand why some window cleaners association or federation is not fighting the proposed ban on ladders
Whether your completely wfp or still use ladders for most of your work I would take it as a direct insult to my work practices and my intelligence to be told how to do my job by anybody including a government agency or insurance co.
It (and this is an outsiders view) would appear to me that the proposed ban is being driven by insurance co,s not with the view to making window cleaning a safer profession but with the idea of giving them a legitimate reason to deny insurance to any ladder users(somewhat like health insurance co,s only offering insurance to healthy people)
in this global economy if the proposed ban was defeated then a federation worth its salt could seek out insurance thruogh any number of co,s willing to insure ladder users at a reasonable rate and offer this to their members
wfp is still in its infancy over there and you can bet that after a few incidents have occured the insurance co,s will invent some reason to hike rates on wfp users as well and as there will be no alternatives available it will be pay up and shut up
i have read all the reasons that Wfp is a better safer way to wash windows most of which I agree with and have seen numerous analogys used to show that this is the way forward like a carpenter using a skill saw as opposed to a hand saw but sometimes a hand saw is a better way to do the job and you would have a public outcry from any carpenters federation if a ban on hand saws was proposed
When the car was invented it was a wonderful new way to travel but bicycles and horses were not banned and are still used by millions today
This is not a rant against Wfp which I dont use (did use pure water for years)as I believe it is a fantastic tool for a large proportion of jobs, but I think any federation of window cleaners should first and foremost be fighting for the right of its members to work in the most efficient and safe manner they believe possible and not what insurance co,s find to be the most profitable for them
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Hi Thomas
The fed do a corporate advert in all the yellow pages and i think it is £130 ish.
Steve
Hi Steve
Would it not be better to have just one addvert for the fed, and one free phone number. Then when people ring the number a member who covers that area is given the details.
As at the monment in the Cardiff yellow pages there are 4 - 5 fed members all paying.
Roy
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I do think the Assocication of proffesionall window cleanners are heading the right way.
As for the Fed it wants a complete new board at the top and replaced with people that is interested in window cleanners and not there own interest's.
Roy
Ps: you know what I mean.
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I wonder if Im' black listed from rejoining now. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Roy
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Hi Thomas
The fed do a corporate advert in all the yellow pages and i think it is £130 ish.
Steve
HI Steve
I think what Thomas is on about is that the new BT style book takes business classifications now, why do the FED not extend the corporate advertising into this publication as well as Yellow Pages?
Tam K
Hi Tam
Sorry i see what you mean now :-[ I will look into this and see what can be done ;)
Steve
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Openness and honesty. (A chap can dream!)
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Openness and honesty. (A chap can dream!)
I was going to call it transparency but I guess that's what you mean.
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Also remember it is breaking the law to work on gas/heating appliances unless you have corgi membership, this is slightly different to a association in my book.
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With all these things it comes down to who is prepared to do all the work when everyone else just sits on the fence and criticises all the time.
Its not something I would want to do. Its a load of work and no thanks.
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I think thats quite true,been there done and the T shirt ;D
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I dont work over there yet but having participated in this forum for a while I cannot understand why some window cleaners association or federation is not fighting the proposed ban on ladders
but I think any federation of window cleaners should first and foremost be fighting for the right of its members to work in the most efficient and safe manner they believe possible and not what insurance co,s find to be the most profitable for them
Interesting points, my call on this is that unfortunately due to the number of serious if not fatal accidents happening due to the use of laders this directive was always inevitable.
Insurance companies will take a harsh look at people who wish to use ladders as there is no doubt that an accident up a ladder could prove very dangerous. Hence why they are looking and pushing for WFP options which is without doubt a safer alternative, lets not get into the results discussion, lets keep this about saftey.
What grounds would you see that a FED or ASSC have to justify an argument with the WAHD or government regarding going up a ladder? Lets be honest, we have all taken risks on ladders, I know I have , it's par for the course!
At the end of the day we just have to face it, previous miss-use of ladders has resulted in accidents which have resulted in claims and government awareness as to the risks involved! Had we all been footed, tied on at the top, secured at the bottom perhaps this WAHD would never have been an issue? Guess we have ourselves to blame :(
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I dont work over there yet but having participated in this forum for a while I cannot understand why some window cleaners association or federation is not fighting the proposed ban on ladders
but I think any federation of window cleaners should first and foremost be fighting for the right of its members to work in the most efficient and safe manner they believe possible and not what insurance co,s find to be the most profitable for them
Interesting points, my call on this is that unfortunately due to the number of serious if not fatal accidents happening due to the use of laders this directive was always inevitable.
Insurance companies will take a harsh look at people who wish to use ladders as there is no doubt that an accident up a ladder could prove very dangerous. Hence why they are looking and pushing for WFP options which is without doubt a safer alternative, lets not get into the results discussion, lets keep this about saftey.
What grounds would you see that a FED or ASSC have to justify an argument with the WAHD or government regarding going up a ladder? Lets be honest, we have all taken risks on ladders, I know I have , it's par for the course!
At the end of the day we just have to face it, previous miss-use of ladders has resulted in accidents which have resulted in claims and government awareness as to the risks involved! Had we all been footed, tied on at the top, secured at the bottom perhaps this WAHD would never have been an issue? Guess we have ourselves to blame :(
I had a couple of near misses myself early on Trevor due to inexperience. I got lucky a couple of years ago too. The early near misses were learnrd from and the much later one was something that I hadn't envisaged. Some people do not get the chance to learn from their near misses.
Having said that, I still believe that compulsory training in ladder usage would have been a better route to go down - especially one that collates how real life accidents do happen and uses them on the training course.
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I don't think its a question of training. Any trade organisation would have to campaign for safety and best practices within the industry it represents.
I would like to see how anyone can argue in favour of ladders when there is a viable alternative. Whether we like being told what to do is another matter.
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I think thats quite true,been there done and the T shirt ;D
Hi Terry
I have lost your number mate ::) can you e mail me with it as it would be good to speak again ;)
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Good shout Trevor.
I personally would like to see the public made more aware of the WAHD that affects WC, This may be of benefit to the trad user aswell, if you wish to stay trad, then I'm sure your more than willing to pay the extra premium for insurance, the same goes for any wfp wc who uses his ladders.
Once the public are aware of the WAHD they may start asking to see our insurance policy's, this will benefit all of us and not just the wfp guy's, I can't see the beer brigade wanting to splash out on insurance.
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I don't think its a question of training. Any trade organisation would have to campaign for safety and best practices within the industry it represents.
I would like to see how anyone can argue in favour of ladders when there is a viable alternative. Whether we like being told what to do is another matter.
Hate being told what to do. That's why I'm self employed ;D
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I dont work over there yet but having participated in this forum for a while I cannot understand why some window cleaners association or federation is not fighting the proposed ban on ladders
but I think any federation of window cleaners should first and foremost be fighting for the right of its members to work in the most efficient and safe manner they believe possible and not what insurance co,s find to be the most profitable for them
Interesting points, my call on this is that unfortunately due to the number of serious if not fatal accidents happening due to the use of laders this directive was always inevitable.
Inevitable is a very strong word to use but if you believe that then would it not also be inevitable that there would eventually be a ban on Cradle work,abseiling and Mewps which in the advent of a ladder ban will become much more commonly used by window cleaners who inevitably will take chances
Insurance companies will take a harsh look at people who wish to use ladders as there is no doubt that an accident up a ladder could prove very dangerous. Hence why they are looking and pushing for WFP options which is without doubt a safer alternative, lets not get into the results discussion, lets keep this about saftey.Its hard to discuss a job like ours without mentioning results as results are all our customers care about but let me leave it at this
If you take all windows as being 100%(and assume that the builders clean has been done on all )then (these are not hard no,s just guesses on my part and not being in the UK ill informed guesses but insert your own no,s here)30% of windows are not suited to wfp and about 30% will have access issues(remember you cant use your pointer to stradel the back gate or your 20 footer to get onto that flat roof etc)
As far as insurance co.s are concerned then they are there to mitigate against an accident by the few which is subsidised by the many,Your 18 yr old daughter can get insurance to drive a car albeit at a higher rate and when she turns 25 that rate will be reduced as she has gained experience and has not had an accident
What grounds would you see that a FED or ASSC have to justify an argument with the WAHD or government regarding going up a ladder? Lets be honest, we have all taken risks on ladders, I know I have , it's par for the course!When you look at the alternatives , Wfp being only one but lets use that,If every shiner in the UK is using one then ( chancers will take chances) the probability of accidents is still there. Different kinds of accidents in all honesty but accidents all the same, there is also a larger chance of RSIs as opposed to a ladder user or a wfp iser who chops and changes depending on the circumstances
At the end of the day we just have to face it, previous miss-use of ladders has resulted in accidents which have resulted in claims and government awareness as to the risks involved! Had we all been footed, tied on at the top, secured at the bottom perhaps this WAHD would never have been an issue? Guess we have ourselves to blame :(
If this arguement held true then it could be used to ban almost any tool used by any worker as accidents occur in all industries
If ladders are banned then it would stop anyone with a ladder and a bucket frrom becoming a window cleaner which would in the short term be a good thing for wfp users and would turn a lot of legimitate window cleaners into cowboys unless they go down the wfp path
A greater demand for WFps would inevitably increase the price of the equipment while more users would mean more competition for the percentage of work suited to wfp thus reducing prices which in the long term just benifits the WFP manufacturers and possibly the few window cleaning co,s that are large enough to swallow the start up costs of going nation wide with franchises etc(if those are anything like over here then they charge low pay their poorly trained workers low and care little for quality but with diminished competition and few alternatives {their pure water is the same as yours} the customer will go with the lower price or with a ladder climbing cowboy who does not have insurance not because he does not want it bit because he cannot get it
Trevor , this is not an arguement with you and maybe some of the points I have made are a little extreme(although I tried to e rational) but from my perspective not as extreme as banning ladders completely
Sorry that did not post the way I wished as some of my responses were included in Trevors quote
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I agree with Trevor, WFP is the new tool on the market for a lot of us. However
I do not see any association promoting it to the general public. We all tell our
customers that we are now using WFP due to the WAHD regulations.
The public are not aware of this, surely an association should be backing it's members in publicising the benefits of WFP due to WAHD in the local newspapers.
I have a funny feeling the FED does not back WFP to its full due to a certain
person trying to promote WFP. Surely this can be a hinderance to its members.
An association needs to promote its members to the general public, just getting cheaper insurance anyone can do it.
I do accept the FED backed its members in the recent water shortage, but you need to promote the industry all the time not only in time of need.
However speaking to some of their new members who have burning ambition
things may change for the better.
Doug
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Cradle Work -
WFP is a safer option to using ladders, naturally if your working from a cradle 100ft up in the air then there is no alternative access options, you wouldn't be expected to use a ladder in the first place?? However, if your working at 15ft then yes, WFP is a good and much safer option.
Suitability -
30% not suited and 30% access problems??? Not wanting to argue but strongly disagree, especially regarding the access. I have about 1% that require a ladder to access a flat roof and as for a 6ft gate, we just jump over? As for suitability, I can only speak on experience, over 1800 customers and around 6 houses that they want us to clean traditionally as the results are poor?
Car Insurance -
Not sure the relevance with your analogy? Your talkin about age when this is about safety, no matter how many years you have been going up a ladder, you are much more likely to hurt yourself falling down wether its your 1st or 10,000th trip up and down the ladder. Fact, using WFP you will not hurt yourself falling with WFP as your not working up a ladder and therefore the risk ratio of wfp v laders is incredibly low.
So would you not get RSI from repeatedly going up and down a ladder all day, every day?
If this arguement held true then it could be used to ban almost any tool used by any worker as accidents occur in all industries
Any hazard that is identified will almost certainly come under scrutiny from H&S, you cant go on a building site now without a safety helmet, boots, flourescent vest. You must wear goggles when operating certain power tools, towers and platforms must be used for internal access, these situations all stem from previous miss-use and consequent accidents. Its the way of this world and in particular the UK. Safety, safety, safety!
If ladders are banned then it would stop anyone with a ladder and a bucket frrom becoming a window cleaner which would in the short term be a good thing for wfp users and would turn a lot of legimitate window cleaners into cowboys unless they go down the wfp path
Yes thats true, but if its the only way forward as far as the government and H&S are concerned then you have to adapt to their demands. I believe we should all have freedom of choice, maybe we can continue using ladders and pay the increased insurance premiums? Until this messy situation is completely aired by the government and we all know EXACTLY where we stand its all a bit uncertain. One thing is for sure, accidents on ladders will never help the situation and only act as more reasons to ban them?
A greater demand for WFps would inevitably increase the price of the equipment
surely the greater demand the greater the pressure on the supplier to reduce his costs to sell his product in an ever increasing market place just like you said regarding window cleaners having to drop prices to compete?
while more users would mean more competition for the percentage of work suited to wfp thus reducing prices which in the long term just benifits the WFP manufacturers and possibly the few window cleaning co,s that are large enough to swallow the start up costs of going nation wide with franchises etc(if those are anything like over here then they charge low pay their poorly trained workers low and care little for quality but with diminished competition and few alternatives {their pure water is the same as yours} the customer will go with the lower price or with a ladder climbing cowboy who does not have insurance not because he does not want it bit because he cannot get it
In my experience, the lowest price doesn't always win. How you sell your service is your choice, I never sell on price, I sell on reliability, professionalism, attention to detail, the fact we are insured, employees are registered with the local police, we wear uniform and carry ID cards, we have 15 years proven track record, endless references - All this is what constitutes my price and what I will charge the customer which in turn lets them understand what they can expect from my company. There is not point taking on a cheap window cleaner that is here one day and gone the next because he underpriced his service. How many customers can you count that have said to you "I used to have a window cleaner, but he's dissappeared"? I guarentee any customer who has suffered an accident by a beer brigade window cleaner breaking a roof panel on their conservatory that then refuses to pay for or replace it, make certain that their next window cleaner is insured and legitimate?