Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Alex Gardiner on December 03, 2006, 10:13:00 am
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Hi Everyone,
Come the new year we will be stocking 5 different types of poles. In an attempt to help customers accurately choose which poles they require we have come up with a new rating guide.
The poles are rated according to Weight and Rigidity. This is a subjective guide and is based on our own assessment of the pole characteristics. It is not a bench marked measurement, but attempts to provide an accurate picture of the comparative performance of each pole.
Weight: The higher the number the lower the comparative weight
Rigidity: The higher the number the more rigid the pole is
Currently the highest rating of 10 is used for the 'XXXXXXXX' as it is the lightest and the stiffest pole on the market. If another pole were to be released, which was superior in either measurement we would re-assess all the other poles against the new standard.
(http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/weight_rigid_guide.jpg)
If you want to check the various poles out please look on our site under 'Water Fed Poles' and then 'Pole specifications'
Alex
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Hi Everyone,
Come the new year we will be stocking 5 different types of poles. In an attempt to help customers accurately choose which poles they require we have come up with a new rating guide.
The poles are rated according to Weight and Rigidity. This is a subjective guide and is based on our own assessment of the pole characteristics. It is not a bench marked measurement, but attempts to provide an accurate picture of the comparative performance of each pole.
Weight: The higher the number the lower the comparative weight
Rigidity: The higher the number the more rigid the pole is
Currently the highest rating of 10 is used for the 'XXXXXXXX' as it is the lightest and the stiffest pole on the market. If another pole were to be released, which was superior in either measurement we would re-assess all the other poles against the new standard.
(http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/weight_rigid_guide.jpg)
If you want to check the various poles out please look on our site under 'Water Fed Poles' and then 'Pole specifications'
Alex
My first thought is that this sounds a good idea Alex.
My second thought was to start at a number rather higher than 1 and to take it in stepos of say, 5 ? e.g. Start at 20 and use initial increments/decrements of 5. If you did this, it would save you from re-assessing your entire stock when another pole comes out and the steps of 5 would allow you to slot some poles between existing poles in the ratings system.
On a slightly different tack, maybe you could have a third number for clamp ease of use/durability.
Sorry mate. Not trying to tell you how to run your business as I have enough trouble running my own ;D . Just a suggestion or two that may (or may not) make things a little easier for you.
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Hi The Shiner,
All comments welcomed, including criticism, how can we improve otherwise. This feature will no doubt adapt as new ideas come up.
Alex
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hi alex
just wondering when are you going to be selling the predator pole
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I like the idea Alex with a great big BUT
The but is that you will have to make it very clear indeed in any use of the rating system that you are only giving an opinion or you could end up with a whole can of worms with this one.
An opinion has to be subjective for example I have all sorts of different makes of pole that are used by my employees. Almost to a man they have different opinions on poles so what I do is if a new pole is needed I ask the guy who is going to be the main user what his preference is. That usually works for me but of course if a new super dooper pole becomes available its down to me to choose whether I buy it or not. So I guess an unbiased opinion might be of help but in all honesty as a supplier yourself I really dont see how you can be totally unbiased.
Rich.
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Hi,I agree with what you are trying to do,and its about time it was done.I would do it slightly different in that I would choose a particular pole,and this would be the Bench Mark,it would most probably have to be the most popular pole,that way people would understand the rating,once you have a Bench Mark you shouldnt if possible move it,Hi-Fis have theres,on a turntable it is Linn,any turn table that then comes out is then compared to this,I know the product is different but the idea is the same.....
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Spot on - as I said earlier:
"This is a subjective guide and is based on our own assessment of the pole characteristics. It is not a bench marked measurement, but attempts to provide an accurate picture of the comparative performance of each pole."
We have tended to use the Universal pole as a subjective comparison as most people have used or tried these poles. Ultimately it would be a good idea to have a definitive benchmark system. We thought that it was worth starting somewhere as we have probably one of the widest ranges of poles in the market giving us a unique opportunity to assess them against each other.
.......... and Yes I am biased! Aren't we all?!
(The Predators will hopefully come on line in January.)
Alex
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alex,
sorry to be negative but there isnt really any point to this by doing it yourself if for instance the survey was carried out by say Which magazine then great but a supplier i know where your coming from but if people need to see a pole before purchasing then they should contact the nearest supplier who can show them in person leaving them to decide for themselves,
eg, vauxhall vivaro - renualt traffic - nissan primstar
90% identical but yet different but why do some choose say vivaros over the primstar
buying on line gives its own problems so for those that are unsure then they should at least try in person before purchasing online
rgds
stuart
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Hi Stuart,
You're not being negative, just giving your opinion, that's what this forum is for.
We sell 100's of poles to our customer base and this is simply an attempt to try and help inform our customers of the comparative weights and flexile strength of each of the poles 'that we sell'.
It does not attempt to be an across the board measurement but we are trying to help clear a way through the maze a little.
I also knew though that this would invite quite a lot of comment, some positive and some not so, but then I always think that you can learn more from your detractors than you can from your fans, can't you.
Most people, we find, do not want the hassle of finding a supplier, going to them and then, finding another one going to them, etc until they have all the poles personally assessed. Yet, that is, as you say the best way of doing it.
I personally am always trying new poles and brushes, just to assess if I am using the best available for my own Window Cleaning work. The only real test is to buy a product and use it properly for hour after hour, which is what I always try and do. I have several 'mule' poles in my vehicle which are constantly being changed and adapted with different combinations of brushes/necks/connectors etc.
This way I feel that when asked for an opinion I can give a fairly informed one, of course this is all only my personal opinion and as such is worth only whatever you think it is!
Alex
Hi TDW,
Glad you like the pole! The Super-Lite is a bit of anomaly within the pole world, some will love it others hate it. Currently the Super-Lite is the stiffest/lightest pole on the market. Until another betters it, it will stay at 10! We actually make more profit from good old Universal poles than the Super-Lites!
Alex
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Hi Alex , so put this system into practice now !
I am as you have read looking at the 44 foot Facelift , as it stands the best deals i have found are yourself and varitech , so how do you rate the pole ?
Rich P @ F
Hey you could even offer me a discount , i wouldnt mind ;D
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TDW £10/ft or less.
http://www.w.com/html/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=369
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The poles are rated according to Weight and Rigidity. This is a subjective guide and is based on our own assessment of the pole characteristics. It is not a bench marked measurement, but attempts to provide an accurate picture of the comparative performance of each pole.
Weight: The higher the number the lower the comparative weight
Rigidity: The higher the number the more rigid the pole is
Currently the highest rating of 10 is used for the 'XXXXXXXX' as it is the lightest and the stiffest pole on the market. If another pole were to be released, which was superior in either measurement we would re-assess all the other poles against the new standard.
(http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/weight_rigid_guide.jpg)
If you want to check the various poles out please look on our site under 'Water Fed Poles' and then 'Pole specifications'
Alex
Have a read of Alex post again, as I will be placing an order with a supplier this week, (and no its not with Gardiner Pole Systems) I understand what he is trying to do for the benefit of members like myself,
If I was to come on the forum and ask the members what is the best pole to use? I am 100% sure I would have quite a few different opinions, I did this regarding what type of system to go for, and to be quite honest it made my decision that much harder because we all have our own opinions,I sat down and worked out how many guy's used the van mount against the trolley and against the backpack.
Now if a supplier gives us a scale to work on ie weight and Rigidity and is honest enough to say its only there own finding, then I will know if I want a rigid pole but it must be a light one, then I will check out his scale. and If I find the pole to heavy then I have no come back, but I am sure with Alex's experience on pole work, it will be a fairly accurate opinion.
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Sorry, its not the lightest, Alex check your pms. the original "Featherlite" 60 fter is less than yours at 2.82kg
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Hi P@F,
My opinion: good pole, fairly stiff, reasonable longevity, quite usable but saddled with an over-heavy Gooseneck/Brush.
We are just about to start selling them with an option of different Goosenecks/Brushes, which will also save you money.
Give us a ring on Thursday or check the website about the same time.
Alex
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Alex
Who have you had that hates the supalites? I find that hard to understand. Did some of the ones who tested them come back and say they didn't like them?
And also why didn't they like it? I thought one of the down sides would it would take longer to set up. But I've found there nothing in it. Its quick to set up.
Basically what are the downsides to it as I cant find any. It stiff, light and easy to set up. Cant wait for the telescopic version.
TDW
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Hi Jeff,
Last week I purchased the components you recommend to make a featherlite for assessment. I was in the middle of composing a full report on the comparison when my cordless keyboard crashed the lot this afternoon!!
The featherlite, having compared it, is quite a bit more flexible than the Super-Lite (I have the photographs to show it). At just 16 ft, held horizontally, the featherlite has 5 inches of sag compared with the Super-Lite, both fitted with the same lightweight gooseneck and brush (by the way, the number 4 glass fibre section is a perfect fit into a Super-Lite gooseneck). Because of the glass fibre top sections, whilst the pole does weigh about 300 g less at 45 ft, there is too much weight at the head of the pole making it much harder to work with (I was trying them out this afternoon).
I would rate a featherlite as a 10 for lightness but a 9 for flexile strength.
The reason for the difference between the two poles is the quality of the carbon fibre sections used. The retail value of the MAP F-16 and the 8M Zensorflex poles is about £320, whereas the value of the sections in the same lengths of the Super-Lite is about £720, hence the greater elastic rating of the sections 20 compared to 18 for the F-16. This is in no way trying to put off people making a DIY featherlite, just it really does pay to buy a slightly higher quality 16 metre pole as you will be amazed at the difference in performance.
Jeff, if you fancy a trial of a Super-Lite, I am more than happy to provide a demonstration pole for you to have a go with. Drop me an email if you are interested.
Hi TDW,
One of our 12 testers did not get on with it because his work was all domestic and he found the modular nature did not fit in with this so he returned it and it didn't cost him a penny!
Alex
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Quote.
The retail value of the MAP F-16 and the 8M Zensorflex poles is about £320, whereas the value of the sections in the same lengths of the Super-Lite is about £720, hence the greater elastic rating of the sections 20 compared to 18 for the F-16. This is in no way trying to put off people making a DIY featherlite, just it really does pay to buy a slightly higher quality 16 metre pole as you will be amazed at the difference in performance."
A. So the difference is £400 for 5" @16ft what is the diff at 60ft ? what about the vat ?
The elstic rating of fishing poles has nothing to do with the strength/lightness ratio- its to do with the elasticity/thickness of the fishing line strain on the No1 section(which we discard) the pole can take.
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Jeff.
I would like to see details of the featherlight pole.
Why not post a pic or link here other than to yet another forum?
Are you selling them Jeff? I ask because I am interested. I have a lot of very high work and probaly wouldnt mind trying one. I am not asking for a trial pole. If it looks like it will do the job I need it to I will just buy it outright.
Rich.
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Rich have a look at the link for the reply to TDW above. Or I charge £10/ft you will find pics for the 75fter on the same site in the video/pics section. I see you have your email link. Will send you mine.
Night ..zzzz
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Hi Extremeclean,
I have all the components for a featherlite as recommended by Jeff Brimble. They have only been used once (to put together and test it). If you want them, I can sell them to you for £260 including postage (no VAT, private sale).
Alex
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Quote.
The retail value of the MAP F-16 and the 8M Zensorflex poles is about £320, whereas the value of the sections in the same lengths of the Super-Lite is about £720, hence the greater elastic rating of the sections 20 compared to 18 for the F-16. This is in no way trying to put off people making a DIY featherlite, just it really does pay to buy a slightly higher quality 16 metre pole as you will be amazed at the difference in performance."
A. So the difference is £400 for 5" @16ft what is the diff at 60ft ? what about the vat ?
The elstic rating of fishing poles has nothing to do with the strength/lightness ratio- its to do with the elasticity/thickness of the fishing line strain on the No1 section(which we discard) the pole can take.
Hi Jeff,
Quoting the retail value was to give a guide as the quality of the components we use not what we sell it for. We actually sell the pole for £565. This includes an aluminium carbon fibre gooseneck (£40), jetted lightweight brushhead (£13.50), hose and connector (£16), adjustable end bung (£6), pre-treated end tips and non-jamming joint modification (£30, which we can add to any Super-Lite/featherlite pole), insulated base section (£13), velcro ties (£3), can of end tip treatment spray (£6) and full operating manual. This makes our Super-Lite retail price of the actual pole sections to be £437.50. The difference between featherlite and Super-Lite pole sections is actually only £117.50.
I measured the flex difference at just 16ft because the flex was already noticeable.
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TDW your first reply to this topic is missing ?
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Alex,
im glad you read my post as contructive critisism and not a dig like i said i can see what your trying to do but think its not the correct thing
for eg bwca are there to train us window cleaners and offer help although they only show you there way with there (ionic) equipment
for this type of idea like the training it should be done independent from manufactures and suppliers
rgds
stuart
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Hi Stuart,
It's always good to bounce ideas around.
I have tried to rate the poles as a user not as a supplier. We still have a very large commercial and domestic window cleaning business and I spend at least 2 days of every week working full on with WFP. Because of this I am able to maintain a good perspective on the products without even thinking about which has a better 'mark up'.
I realise that as a supplier our firm will be perceived as having a 'bias' and that's fair enough, but I really have tried to set this up as a help to my customers. I have been thinking today, (whilst working for 3 hours with a 40ft Super-Lite, 1 hour with a 20ft Universal, 10mins with an 18ft Extender and 10 mins with a 12ft 'Tele-Lite' pole), that perhaps I could set up a benchmark comparison test. This after all would offer a definitive guide not just subjective. I tried to do this with the Super-Lite and Feather-Lite comparison, side by side, taking an actual measurement of flexile difference, although the subjective usage test was actually even more revealing. So perhaps a combination might work.
It's an idea that I think will grow and grow.
Thanks for your feedback Stuart,
Alex
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Hi Alex, putting it simply using your figures ,
Quote “We actually sell the pole for £565 ” … +vat = £663
I provide my featherlite service for £10/ft £450 …. no vat = £450
Diy complete for £309.99 inc vat £309.99
However. The featherlite at 2.82kg (6.2lb) (60ft)complete is still the lightest pole in the market.
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Hi Jeff,
Your way is cheaper, no doubt. The reason that I bought a featherlite on your guidance was to see whether we needed to change our suppliers of pole sections, we buy so many of them at a time we are able to arrange very good trade discounts. My aim was to be able to reduce the price to customers of a Super-Lite.
Having tried both types now though I can see why we pay more for our Super-Lite sections and I am happy to continue with our current supplier. I realise that some will not be able to see where the price difference goes and because of that they will go elsewhere, but that is life and a free market.
I am also going to go out into the workshop and re-weigh both the Super-Lite and the Feather-Lite sections to see what the difference is, it seems that our 2 assessments of weight do not tie up. I'll let you know.
Whether it's a Super-Lite or a Featherlite, they are still the only pole to be working with in my opinion.
Alex
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Hi Jeff,
I have been out in the workshop with my accurate postage scales and here are the results of the weigh in.
These are for Pole sections only, without gooseneck or brush and without any foam filling etc.
Featherlite at Super-Lite at
40ft = 1636g 40ft = 1588g
Super-Lite is 48g lighter
60ft = 2780g 60ft = 2896g
Featherlite is 116g lighter.
By these weights your 60ft pole will need to have a brush/gooseneck weighing just 40g to hit your quoted weight of 2.82kg, is that right?
The gooseneck and brush combo we use weighs 356g on top of the above weights.
Whilst the elastic rating does apply mainly to the top sections the whole pole does have to be rated to take the same strain. On the Featherlite base sections they are clearly marked elastic 18, the Super-Lites are rated at 20 which is why they are more rigid in use.
I have now had to re-assess my Super-Lite published weights because the Pole was lighter than I thought!
I hope that this clarifies the weight situation.
Regards
Alex
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Funny enough I have been doing some experiments(its raining again), I am sure that the average reader is not interested in grams or inches but that the poles are a pleasure to use. Whoever makes them.
I have to abide by your figures for now as I am not there. You have used a slightly different criteria and my kitchen scales may not be 100% accurate, my reading for a 60fter was 2.82kg @ 60ft. Whats the weight of yours a@60ft ? ps. I do not use Map parallel extensions.
I make it that your brush a £1.49 (Asda) Bentley brush and an adjustable, modified Unger elbow joint complete weigh 322gm. But will check my figures.. (I just used one of the parallel extensions and multiplied the weight by 3)
Re 5" sag, Measured from the horizontal using the No3 section zensorflx and the No4 short section Map etc I make The difference in sag 4" not the 5" @16ft which you quoted,
What is the "sag"of your pole ? (your expression)
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Hi Jeff
Just a quick note to answer your specific questions on this wider topic -
The Super-Lite 60 ft with our own unique carbon fibre and aluminium gooseneck (NOT Unger) and brush weighs 3.27 including section modifications.
Sag - The 5" difference was between the Super-Lite and the Featherlite at 16 ft. This was measured with the same weight (356g) attached to the end of each pole. This was not the distance from horizontal.
I agree with you the important thing is ease of use which both of these poles have in spades, although naturally for you and I weight is an important factor in the development of these poles and future products.
Alex
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Message to Jeff & Alex,
When you weighed your poles for the tenth time were you both wearing your Anoraks!!!
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Definitely!!
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Alex again using your figure ( without me having to recheck my own weights)of 1636gm for my pole, the 3 extra extension sections I would use are 300gm each which makes 900gm add the original 1636 (your figure) and I make that 2536gm total weight. - Yours according to your own figures weigh a bit more at 2896.
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Come on Jeff, give it a rest mate I'm losing the will to live! ;) ;) ;)
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Thanks Paul, I will. Just trying to be helpful answering questions. 8)