Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: macleod on November 10, 2006, 09:45:14 pm
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well i figure the WFP versus LADDERS argument is now well and truly over (God rest those Ladder Boys)... and most of the ladder boys have wised up to WFP, so what can we argue about now?
My suggestion is this... Domestic versus Commercial.
my opinion is that your nuts to have a domestic round (its okay to start off but not if your serious about W/C as a business).
The way forward is commercial only...
So all you Domestic Boys tell me why do you do it? When it rains you cant work your mad!
http://WFP & Commercial rulz ok! ;)
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I work 24/7 and live in a village. So for me domestic almost rules. They stay loyal unlike big business that wants it done for X ammount. Commercial the way forward, You are wrong. 8) everyone else is doing that. Provide a service and provide the answer.
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when it rains you cant work
when the winter arrives your 'loyal' customers tell you to wait till spring
do one bad window and they moan moan moan
collecting cash at night/weekends
your limited as to what you can charge, and so you are limited as to what you could earn
you have to compete against the dole squad
hmmmm i think im right
wise up you domesti boys to the bright shiny commercial world
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one thing though you dont have to wait 30 days for your money doing houses!
we do both so houses pay the bills commercial is the cream on the cake!
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Right fellow "domestic boys"... Lets all go commercial and provide more competition for macleod!
macleod - Why on earth are you trying to suggest we all go commercial, surely its not in your best "serious business" interests to do that? ::)
Personally I have a mixture of domestic and commercial (more domestic at the moment). The thing I like about domestic is that you are not tied down to certain days and certain times etc...
Andy
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oh mcleod ;D just won a big contract have we?
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oh yes please
the more of you slap happy Dommestic Boys going for commercial work the better
make my job so much easier
then the real quality will shine through and i would win more and more work at higher prices too! ;)
domestic negatives are just soooo long that i dont think i could lust them all...
as for being tied down with commercial, i think not.
do you work on a 4 week rota? i do. but just like you i can give or take a week and it dont matter plus if it rains you have to pack up your bags and go home
mixing commercial and domestic is like mixing your drinks - you shouldnt do it as it will make you sick
but i guess it is better to leave the commercial work to the professionals 8)
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My round is mainly domestic and i work in the rain.
I earn good money for the hours i do.
I can pick or choose what work i want to take on.
If i lose a job it can easily be replaced with not much loss of income - if you lose a big commercial job it's not that easy to replace and the income could be noticed quite a lot if it's a big paid job.
I don't go collecting.
I get my money before 30 days are up.
Errr I'm happy how things are going for me and the work is still coming in - Domestic and Commercial.
If mixing Domestic and Commercial is like mixing your drinks then perhaps you should stay on Squash ;D
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What a load of old Tosh (Sorry Tosh no pun intended)
Commercial is competetive enough already and it's going to get worse. I have commercial contracts from local offices to national companies and although some of them are cream jobs by far the majority are very keenly priced and as to 30 days getting paid I say IF YOU ARE LUCKY.
So many get the illusion that commercial work is the bees knees. I think its more of a cudos thing than hard headed business.
I am rapidly expanding my domestic client base and can tell you for a fact that if decently priced and well planned it's much more lucrative and cash positive than 90% of commercial.
Dont be fooled and get yourself a load of headaches and a bad cash flow by trying to go all commercial.
Rich.
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when it rains you cant work
when the winter arrives your 'loyal' customers tell you to wait till spring
do one bad window and they moan moan moan
collecting cash at night/weekends
your limited as to what you can charge, and so you are limited as to what you could earn
you have to compete against the dole squad
hmmmm i think im right
wise up you domesti boys to the bright shiny commercial world
Wrong on all statements.
Roy
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A LIL BIT BELOW THE BELT MC LOUD
IM A PROFESSIONAL AND PROUD ONLY DO DOMESTIC AT MOMENT BUT I BET IF I DO COMMERCIAL GIVEN A LIL BIT OF TIME ID SUS IT OUT AND MAKE IT WORK!
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BUT THIS IS TURNING INTO A GOOD DEBATE
I WILL LEARN FROM THIS ONE
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dont take it personal riversidewindowclean, just stirring the pot.
anyway back to business: the right commercial work (which I have) is priced well and i can work it all year round i have lost work (2 client in 2 years) i turn down work more than i lose work.
the right commerxial work follows a simple set of rules, which if adhered to makes better sense than staying a Domestic Boy (unless thats what you want, which is fair enough).
Ive said it once and i will say it again. im right you are wrong :-*
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LOL - Looks like this ones backfiring on you macleod ;)
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eh? re-read these post Andy... and you will see that i am right and you my friends are all wrong :-*
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Macleod,
Upteen replies in about five mintes; spot on! ;D
You're definately stimulating debate, which is what you're after.
Good post.
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the more of you slap happy Dommestic Boys going for commercial work the better
make my job so much easier
then the real quality will shine through and i would win more and more work at higher prices too! ;) (QUOTE FROM MACLOUD)
Tell me why you 'ARE THE REAL QUALITY ' Mc nugget!!!
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ah your a vison of wisdom so far Tosh, nice to see that.
its crazy that some grafters will plug away day in day out doing cheap as chip domestics
the battle over WFP and LADDERS has been won, most WFP men could do better going commercial and leave the Ladder Boys and their Domestics well alone...
i was a Ladder Boy with a old silver escort and my ladders strapped to the roof rack, not now, cos I wised up?
who else will join my band of merry men? 8)
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eh? re-read these post Andy... and you will see that i am right and you my friends are all wrong
Macleod,
If you take your head out from where it is at the moment ;) and you re-read the replys you will see that the majority have been pro domestic.
As I say - I have a mixture of both domestic and commercial so I can see the pros and cons of both.
Andy
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hi Andy... just taken my head out from where it is at the moment (that did make me laugh) and all i can see is lame duck excuses why you boys havent gone 100% commercial...
havent seen a single argument that shows Domestic is better than Commercial yet I have listed quite a few that show Commercial is Better in every way to you Domestic Boyos... prehaps i could be so bold as to ask you to get someone to help you re-read these post Andy... and you will see that i am right and you my friends are all wrong ;)
any way
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macleod,
:)
You haven't listed one positive for doing 100% commercial as yet.
All you have done is listed negatives of domestic.
Listing negatives of "A" doesn't make "B" 100% positive. :-*
Andy
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NO REAL THREAT OF OFFENCE MC LOUD, BUT I THINK MOST IF NOT ALL ON HERE ARE PROS!
OK SO U ONLY DO COMMERCIAL WFP TOO.........
WHAT IF AS I THINK WILL HAPPEN EVENTUAL (I MAY B WRONG) A LOAD OF HUGE COMPANIES DECIDE TO INVEST IN WFP AND GO COMMERCIAL EMPLOYING, DARE I SAY IT IMMIGRANTS(NO OFFENCE TO ANYBODY) POLISH, KOSAVANS ETC ETC AN TOTALLY UNDERCUT U? WHO OF UR COMMERCIAL WILL REMAIN LOYAL? MY DOMESTICS WILL REMAIN LOYAL, I KNOW THAT! F A C T ! ! ! !
I WANT TO BREAK INTO COMMERCIAL AFTER XMAS, BUT ONLY TO BUY MY LOTUS , WHICH OBVIOUSLY U MUST HAVE TWO OF. HA HA ONLY TOYING WITH U!!!
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you ve all got sucked in , good effort mcleod , you re not immortal by any chance are you?
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you ve all got sucked in
Thats the whole point... Its a debate - I love good old fashioned agrguments!
Andy
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sorry for being a grumpy sod , all so obvious, and is his christian name Connor?
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sorry for being a grumpy c*** , all so obvious, and is his christian name Connor?
???
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hummm I’ve said Commercial is Better than Domestic because it doesn’t suffer from all the negatives I have mentioned above – so these are the advantages Commercial has over Domestic.
But just so that the Domestic Boys are clear the biggest advantage is this; I know in 3, 6 or even 12 months how much money I will earn. My business is not subject to the fickle weather we have here in the UK.
Riverside: to answer your question the right commercial work follows a simple set of rules. If you stick to these then you lessen the vulnerability your business could have if such a thing that you described happened.
I case I didn’t mention it, I am right and Domestic Boys are wrong
and my christian name isnt connor?? have no idea what your talking about son ;)
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OK MCLEOD SO WHAT DO U SAY THESE SIMPLE SET OF RULES ARE
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and my christian name isnt connor?? have no idea what your talking about son ;)
This could be a reference from the film 'Highlander'; other than that I have no idea.
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I know in 3, 6 or even 12 months how much money I will earn.
But, in your second post on this thread you stated regarding domestic "your limited as to what you can charge, and so you are limited as to what you could earn"
If you know how much you will be earning in 12 months then that makes you very limited in the commercial field.
I reckon on domestics within the next 12 months I will be earning 30% - 40% more than I am now... And you "my friend" will be stuck on the same amount that you are on now, going on what you have just said.
Andy
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sorry river these rules at the moment are not for sharing (its macleod by the way) but maybe in a later post.
i used to share how i would win work on this forum a few months/year ago but noone believed me (same people who didnt believe in WFP either) so its best to keep it to myself for now.
andy, i read and re-read your reply. doesnt make sense does it laddie? so lets forget you typed it.
anyway, the point is this... you know i am right and more importantly i know im right. 8)
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andy, i read and re-read your reply. doesnt make sense does it laddie? so lets forget you typed it.
Try re-reading it again with those sunglasses off... You might be able to see then ;)
Andy
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stop digging andy... your not a dog ::)
anyway as for me im logging off now but before i go ponder this...
if i am so wrong why are the Domestic boys not abe to give a single reply?
i rest my case m'lud.
might type out my golden rules list next time if there is enought interest... is there any interest?
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anyway as for me im logging off now
Night nght 8)
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FAIR PLAY MACLEOD!
ONLY WONDERING COS IF U RECKON COMMERCIAL IS THE ONLY WAY I W A N N A KNOW WHY!!!!!!!!!!
I AIM TO NEARLY DOUBLE MY INCOME NEXT YEAR SO IF COMM IS THAT LUCRATIVE, WELL!!!!
CHECKED UR PROFILE BUT NO INDICATION AS TO ENLIGHTEN ME!
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SOUNDS TO ME U R POSSIBLY AN EX SALES REP!
iS THAT THE ANSWER?
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what would you consider lucrative?
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100K OR MORE
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SO MY KIDS IN 6 YEARS PLUS HAVE A GOOD BUSINESS TO HELP ME RUN
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so, what have we all learned from this?
maybe in future years when civilizations have rose and fell
his words will be remebered along with the greats (Aesop,Homer,ovid, Bede,Ibn al-Nafis Chaucer and Shakespeare) words of wisdom gents, words of wisdom.
;D ;D ;D
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S*** BLUESTEVE THATS HEAVY FOR THIS TIME A NIGHT 8)
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I have Commercial work not much but a couple of beauty's, and I tell you now its not all its cracked up to be, it depens what you call good commercial some people call bog standard shops, commercial.
small to medium commercial jobs are more lucrative, to me anyway. I never work commercial for less than my minimum day rate wether it takes me 3 hours or 8 but I tell you now depending on what type of the country your in and what properties you do domestic can be even more lucrative. Dont ask me figures but I could shock you, I have been there done it, and in some cases made more on domestic work, more than what most earn in a week.
Just look at the likes of Roy Harding and alike, if the domestic boys have got it so wrong, I wouldnt complain if I had work like them!!!
thats all im going to say, I dont want to get dragged into this row
You must have alot of contracts to keep you going purley commercial, must of took you years to build up a commercial round, am I right?
Pro
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I have about 60% domestic and 40% commercial.
I did plan a few years ago just to stick with domestics as you get paid the same day in a lot of cases if not within a week or so.
But i keep getting commercial jobs to do and its great money and work in all weathers but the cash flow is a bit slow.
I have one that takes 3 months to pay me.
But it pays well thats why im doing it.
I am currently in the process of taking another round over 80% domestic and 20% commercial.
So i will be splitting all my work up shortly to keep the commercial seperate and have a seperate van for that.
Mixing domestic and commercial on the same round i have found can be a bit of a pain and a bit of juggling at times but you can make it work.
Domestics if you price them right can pay as well as commercial and you can work in all weathers if you get all inside work for rainy days.
Paul
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I don't know if it's already been said but the thing with domestic is that if lose a customer you may not lose sleep over it but if you lose a large commercial job then it will take a large ammount of money out of your wages. At least with domestic you've got lot's of little rounds with customers than one commercial with one customer.
So i'd rather the two commercial and domestic and not just commercial!!
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when it rains you cant work
when the winter arrives your 'loyal' customers tell you to wait till spring
do one bad window and they moan moan moan
collecting cash at night/weekends
your limited as to what you can charge, and so you are limited as to what you could earn
you have to compete against the dole squad
hmmmm i think im right
wise up you domesti boys to the bright shiny commercial world
I would like more commercial work but I find that a mix is better. Domestic for cashflow and commercial for larger jobs. I am gradually ditching the "not today" brigade and the "not when it's raining" people and replacing them with custies who are OK with this. If it's raining hard, I usually choose not to work anyway.
Oh yes. I haven't had a "wait till Spring" for a very long time now. I find that's pretty rare anyway.
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Right fellow "domestic boys"... Lets all go commercial and provide more competition for macleod!
macleod - Why on earth are you trying to suggest we all go commercial, surely its not in your best "serious business" interests to do that? ::)
Personally I have a mixture of domestic and commercial (more domestic at the moment). The thing I like about domestic is that you are not tied down to certain days and certain times etc...
Andy
He's trying to con us ;D . He only does domestic really and he's trying to get rid of us.
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Tell me why you 'ARE THE REAL QUALITY ' Mc nugget!!!
He's got the biggest brush.
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sorry river these rules at the moment are not for sharing (its macleod by the way) but maybe in a later post.
i used to share how i would win work on this forum a few months/year ago but noone believed me (same people who didnt believe in WFP either) so its best to keep it to myself for now.
andy, i read and re-read your reply. doesnt make sense does it laddie? so lets forget you typed it.
anyway, the point is this... you know i am right and more importantly i know im right. 8)
Don't tell me. You're about to publish a book on how to get commercial work and it's going on sale a £50 a time ;D
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just like trad versus wfp.... residential versus commercial.......
its called cleaning windows ;
and we all do the same thing.... ::)
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I'd rather do all commercial, but you get what you're given don't you?
I've been asked to do about 10 shops and pubs, but that's it.
All the others are taken.
You could ask at every shop and office from top to bottom of town, and I doubt you'd get one.
You can't choose to do commercial.
It's just what's available at the time.
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You must have alot of contracts to keep you going purley commercial, must of took you years to build up a commercial round, am I right?
Pro
Hmmmmm,
Mr M'Cloud hasn't been in such a hurry to post a reply to this question!
Rather empty boasts so far....
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Riverside....
Could you post your replies without the use of caps please, I'd have emailed you a polite requeat to do so, but unfortunately your email address is hidden.
It's just that it is considered shouting to type in just caps all the time! :-X
Now as to the subject matter of the topic!
I've been WFP for 2 and a half years now, prior to that, 99% of my work was commercial, I had just 2 domestic accounts.
After 2 and a half years of WFP my round is now split approximately 50/50 between domestic and commercial.
the domestic work pays extremely well, on Wednesday of this week the weather was bloody awful, but with a combination of both types of work I knocked out £250+ and was finished by 3pm.
And the split was almost exactly 50/50
All of the domestic accounts bar one £9.00 account have paid...I've yet to be paid for the commercial ones...
All the domestic work was done in horrible drizzle and at one point it was chucking it down and at the time I was doing a new domestic account, first time clean for £35 (took 40 minutes - will be 15 minutes quicker on repeat cleans)
Oops, mistake! Was Tuesday not weds ::)
I also did a £38 leaded house (20 mins) and the woman cam out with £50 thinking it was £48 and not £38 :o
The house next door came out and asked me for a quote as I was leaving, they are having a huge extention done at the moment, but wants me the moment work has finished, this will be a £50+ house (It's one that Squeaky did a while back, lots of balconies)
I have one day on domestics where I have 8 or 9 £8.00 accounts dotted all over town and I am still doing £200 in a day.
That to me is bloody good money.
To be sure, I also have a handful of very, very well priced commercial offices, and my bread and butter work is my shops, but the shops are increasingly holding me back now.
You have to get at them very early in the morning, and collecting them can take as long as cleaning them, plus the prices for cleaning them have hardly changed at all in the last 20 years.
For instance; A shop I was charging £5.00 for 18 years ago is now £6.50.
A house I would have been charging £3.50-£4.00 for is now £12.00.
At the moment I am as happy as a pig in excrement, I've just had another record week, I've topped a target I didn't think I'd reach for some time to come, and thanks to a huge influx of domestic work I don't think it'll be that long before I repeat it either.
I know it really does depend an awful lot on where in the country you live, but I'm charging youngsters on benefits £8.00 for 7 little windows that take me less than 5 minutes to clean and they are not in the least bothered about the price.
The money is out there...all you have to do is find it, and the domestic market is very good around our way anyway.
Oh...and I very rarely go out collecting anymore, just the odd account here and there...
Life is good...Thank you domestics ;D
Ian
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I do both commercial and domestic !
domestic on dry days ( and light rain if reqd )
commercial on wet or dry days ,
This works well for me , and keeps me very busy , and keeps customers happy !
If i had to choose one over the other , i think i would choose domestic !
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I'd like to get more commercial work; not huge stuff, but not small shops either.
Ideally jobs that take no more than a day or two to do at the most.
The small amount of commercial work I do, amounts to about 15 percent of my work.
The thing I like about these accounts, particularly my larger ones (which are still quite small; the biggest being a 40 room hotel) is that I only have to deal with one point of contact, rather than lots of different customers.
I get paid quickly too; no messing, no collecting; no fannying about. It's all priced well too.
Come April, I'm going to do a big push to get more commercial work, but I have some new stuff already in the pipe-line.
I'd rather do all commercial, but you get what you're given don't you?
You can't choose to do commercial.
It's just what's available at the time.
I also disagree with what Squeaky says. In Geordie-land they say, 'A shy child gets nowt'. It's got to be a numbers game and persistance pays.
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afternnon chaps,
lets kick off with a few answers to your questions:
PJ & Proploe: Youre right i havent been in a hurry to post a reply to this question as I am not logged on 24/7. But I am here now for a few mins.
Next I havent got a book deal, nor will I be selling a book at £50 quid a go...
I have about 30 big customers (i.e. takes a day to clean) and 30 'other'l commercial clients (i.e. the paper shop etc)
Its taken about 12 months (not years) to build up the business, and i am adding to it every month.
As a few of you know I started Jan 1st 2005 and went WFP in April 5th 2005.
Also a few of you that have been on this site back then will remember that I used to post ideas on winning commercial work (Mods can back me up on this), but it was just me giving out ideas with no positive feedback or sharing ideas rather the only replies i had were from the "thats not possible. Your a liar. Or I smell BS" brigade.... the same ones who rubbish WFP typically
so i stopped giving away these ideas and what it was possible to earn.
Anyway back in 2005 i knew that the way forward was WFP and Commercial, and its only now that the argument has been won for WFP... I predict that soon these same people will move into Commercial too.
Domestic is great for you old boys who have a nice tidy profitable round. For all the new boys and young guns how are we supposed to win work when Domestics are all tied up with crazy low low prices, feed a family and pay our taxes?
so i say Commercial IS better than Domestic, in the same way that WFP IS better than ladders...
both have down sides no doubt, but limping along doing both holds back your business.
and i do practice what i preach... one day I wrote a letter to all my Domestic customers outlining that i would have to increase my charges so that i could feed my family and pay my taxes... I did a first class job for second class wages... (talking about on average a £2 increase)
they live in £1million house but want it cleaned for a £5 (okay this is just to underline a point, not an actuall real event)
they didnt want to pay, so i just stopped doing all my Domestics. bang. Cold. end.
as for that myth that Domestic are more loyal than Commercial my foot! the only people who say this only have Domestic.
didnt get many phone call begging me to come back (from the same people who gave me keys to their house to make myself a cuppa when they were out), instead some other mug (or old boy) cleans the windows... but as i say i have to feed the family and pay my taxes.
so back to my statement:
Commercial is better than Domestic.
I am right and you Domestic boys (will eventually) know Im right
:-*
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Commercial is better than Domestic.
That's not a statement, it's what's called a false premise.
There's just more to it.
Say for example a domestic property cleaned once per month for 50 pounds and takes an hour to do would be far better than a commercial property cleaned at the same frequency, taking the same time to do, but charging 40 quid.
Then other factors come into it. The domestic customer may pay straight away (or send a cheque) whereas you may have to invoice head-office for the 40 quid commercial job and wait 30 days.
You just can't say Commercial is better than Domestic, because we all know it's not the case in every instance.
Maybe it's your inexperience that's letting you down here!
I like medium-sized commercial work because it's bigger than than most of the residential houses round here, and there's more of it; so it's going to be easier to target.
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just like trad versus wfp.... residential versus commercial.......
its called cleaning windows ;
and we all do the same thing.... ::)
Go on, get in there! ;)
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maybe it is my inexperience...
or would that statement be a false premise too?
maybe it is my inexperience that allows me to say that Commercial is better than Domestic
maybe?
hmmmm?
or maybe what i say is right?
hmmmm?
maybe if a statement is said that is true it doesnt matter if youre an old boy or young gun.
if its true its true.
book for sale soon at all good retail outlets £50 +pp ;)
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The house next door came out and asked me for a quote as I was leaving, they are having a huge extention done at the moment, but wants me the moment work has finished, this will be a £50+ house (It's one that Squeaky did a while back, lots of balconies)
Er, Excuse me Ian!
Mrs.Davies is still on my books.
Granted, she hasn't rang for a while, but I'm ready to do it at the drop of a hat, and I've always dropped everything to help her out.
She's always been very pleased with my work, and she should contact me if she wants them done.
If you want to start getting like Tosh, then fine... ;)
Two can play that game.
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The house next door came out and asked me for a quote as I was leaving, they are having a huge extention done at the moment, but wants me the moment work has finished, this will be a £50+ house (It's one that Squeaky did a while back, lots of balconies)
Er, Excuse me Ian!
Mrs.Davies is still on my books.
Granted, she hasn't rang for a while, but I'm ready to do it at the drop of a hat, and I've always dropped everything to help her out.
She's always been very pleased with my work, and she should contact me if she wants them done.
If you want to start getting like Tosh, then fine... ;)
Two can play that game.
I love it when this happens! ;D
Here we go... 'The Chepstow Three' at it again.
Poor Squeaky!
But to be honest, who waits for a phone call before you go and clean someones windows?
You have to have something called 'terms and conditions', otherwise they're just going to phone when the windows are covered in 'cack'.
Squeaks, you've some stange working practices!
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just like trad versus wfp.... residential versus commercial.......
its called cleaning windows ;
and we all do the same thing.... ::)
Go on, get in there! ;)
Yep - it's all about cleaning windows and making a living Domestic or Commercial
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maybe it is my inexperience...
or would that statement be a false premise too?
maybe it is my inexperience that allows me to say that Commercial is better than Domestic
maybe?
hmmmm?
or maybe what i say is right?
hmmmm?
maybe if a statement is said that is true it doesnt matter if youre an old boy or young gun.
if its true its true.
book for sale soon at all good retail outlets £50 +pp ;)
Well the book bit was a joke ;D
I am interested in building up the commercial side of my business and keeping the more lucrative domestic work too. The cashflow issues of waiting to be paid on many of the commercial jobs are only an issue early on. Once a money flow gets started, what you don't get paid this time, you're getting paid for last time. Only a problem if a company goes pop without paying.
I would be genuinely interested in getting some help from you in getting more commercial jobs if you are willing to give it. If not then so be it. If you don't want to post it on here, I would be happy to give you my email address.
If you want it, just say so.
Thanks.
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Squeaks, you've some stange working practices!
You're the strange one Tosh if you try to order customers around.
She's a very rich lady, it's a good account, and it's done on request, whether that be 1 week or 3 months after the last clean.
It's worth keeping people like that happy.
I picked up another millionaire's job from her soon after.
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Nice thread macleod:
I have a mix of both domestic and commercial.
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You're the strange one Tosh if you try to order customers around.
She's a very rich lady, it's a good account, and it's done on request, whether that be 1 week or 3 months after the last clean.
It's worth keeping people like that happy.
I picked up another millionaire's job from her soon after.
Obviously I can't order anyone about. I just set out my stall and if a customer wishes to purchase they can, but it's on my terms and conditions; not theirs and I don't give a toss how much money they have.
Anyway, so why has this lady asked Ian_Giles to clean her windows if you're so fantastic?
I've still had four of your customers, and you don't have that many, ask me for quotes; for various reasons.
You can't be that good, mate.
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refer to this (Macleod's 'thing'):
firstly i have a look at 'fairly' big offices blocks... where the staff spend all day looking out of their windows...
i usally bowl into reception and as for a compliment slip - girls usally pleased thats all you want, and as they are passing it over i ask for the name of their h&s person....
as they are writing this down i say, who does your window cleaning? do they use ladders, how often, how many blokes how long do they take... just general chit chat
the perfect answer is when they say 2 blokes on ladders... cos i know with a wfp i can do the work of 2 blokes on ladders
then phone and ask to speak to the h&s officer
chat to the h&s officer and say "...you've probably haerd about the new work at height regs...."
cos they are h&s officers they either a) havent a clue what your talking about or b) pretend to know what your talking about
i say i will pop somthing in the post... usally dont ever get round to it as...
i then phone and ask to speak to who ever is responsible for window cleaning (facility manager etc etc)
then i say to them ive just been chatting to their h&s bloke about new regs, would they like a demo/quote
then bosh... i clean the van (new van with logo etc so looks very professional) have a clean shirt in the van, and go in and find out how important h&s is to their company, and what they are currently paying and see if i can honestly beat it - also most importantly i carry a huge file with all my traing certs, insurance and sample risk assesment and method statements showing exactly how i would go about the work...
very rarely have to actually do a demo, and win maybe 1 out of every 3
taken from:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=16535.0
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Great thread, was getting a little quiet around here, :)
I posted a thread a while back about how big and how fast could you build domestic cleaning round, there was some good replys and one interesting one from J.V.Price
" J.V Price Ltd started 37 years ago doing domestics by Joe Price at the breaking point we had over 25 thousand houses and you learn a very quick lesson that if it is not you doing the work yourself or your not checking up on it all the time you are at the mersy of the lads you have working for you"
25,000 houses, thats a major big round.
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Anyway, so why has this lady asked Ian_Giles to clean her windows if you're so fantastic?
I've still had four of your customers, and you don't have that many, ask me for quotes; for various reasons.
You can't be that good, mate.
I'd certainly like to know why she asked Ian.(if she did).
For a start she dissed the pole system something chronic before, and Ian doesn't use ladders so he couldn't do it anyway... ::)
2 balconies and a big flat roof...
...and you think yours and Ian's customers don't ask me? ::)
Ha ha ha! ;D
That's the way it works, people will always try to get it cheaper elsewhere.
Especially the rich.
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Apologies Ian for using Caps, didnt realise it was offensive! No harm intended!
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wow!!
Shine, glasgow! that thread was a blast from the past - do you see how many snipers there are on here!!
;)
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Squeaky Clean Said -
You can't choose to do commercial.
It's just what's available at the time.
Thats a good point all the commercial jobs i have got came to me i did not go after any of them.
And the ones i did go after i never got anyway.
Paul
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do you see how many snipers there are on here!!
;)
yeh but whos the daddy?
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er youre the daddy...? and the CSA want to talk to you! ;)
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Squeaky Clean Said -
You can't choose to do commercial.
It's just what's available at the time.
Thats a good point all the commercial jobs i have got came to me i did not go after any of them.
And the ones i did go after i never got anyway.
Paul
Same here. Only ever picked up 1 commercial by actually going after it.
As for the original thread topic, Macleod's area obviously hasn't been blighted by that 'locust' firm Mitie. I've lost 5 long term so called loyal jobs to the greedy b@stards this year. Commercial ain't the be all and end all of window cleaning.
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I wont say no to commercial work, Though It only makes up about 2% of my round.
I have a Domestic round and its provided me with an exellent standard of living for over 26 years.
I would not be a lot better off on commercial work. We have a couple of muppet w/cleaning companys around where I live who pay their staff about £6 an hour. So the Boss works on a low profit margin but as most of the contract work sewn up.
But my Domestic round can pay 50k a year, How much more could I earn on commercial work?
Nel.
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The last time I mentioned that house to you Roger you said you had not done it for months and months, you even said something along the lines of it being a pain even though it was a big account.
The woman came to me while I was in the driveway of the other account, why the hell would I call on a building site>? Which is what it is at the moment.
I don't tout for any work, don't need to, picking up 2 or 3 accounts every week.
If she is still your customer then fine, I'm not bothered in the least, in fact when she does ring me and ask for a quote (which she will) I will point her in your direction.
But you also have to ask yourself what was she doing coming up to me in the first place?
I know full well you would always have done a good job, and whatever you were charging her would have been relatively cheap too.
One thing you can never, ever accuse me of is taking work off you, the only one I do that too is Simon.
Niether would I ever diss your work or method either.
Bare in mind a tiny little shop you did for a couple of cleans that Simon now does.
When she told you that she wasn't happy with my system, what did you do?
you took the account, I'll bet you even told her how (in your opinion) it leaves spots, its no good, etc etc.
Rather than telling her (as I would have done were it you cleaning the windows) that Ian never does a poor job, and the method used is first rate.
I would then have contacted you and told you of the complaint (as I've done on several occasions when your customers have rang me to ask where you are)
In fact if one of Simon's customers talk to me, I never diss him or his work either, though I'll take work off him at the drop of a hat given the chance.
I have a work ethic/moral that I stick to rigidly.
.................................................................................................
However; back to the topic!
Commercial isn't the be all and end all, Macleod is very wrong on his opinion of domestic work.
I've been going 23 years, so I can be classed as an old timer, but my current domestic round has been built up over the last 2 and a half years, it is this work that is paying for my van, or at least the work I picked up over the first 9 months after going WFP.
Since then, the new work picked up swells my bank balance and has allowed me to hit turnover targets I'd never have dreamed possible before.
Some commercial work is fantastic, medium sized offices and so on...first rate.
If you have the nerve to put in the right price you can get incredibly good money.
I'm talking about what on the surface looks like a really large job, one that done trad would take you 5 hours or more.
Priced trad you'd probably put in a price of perhaps a £100 - £150 and consider it good money.
You'll be shattered of course as it will probably be a 3 storey office.
Providing you have WFP, this same job will get banged out in an hour and a half, and if you are charging at the same rate as before (one that is competitive with a trad firm) then you will be raking it in ;)
But make hay while the sun shines, these jobs will disappear as more and more go over to WFP.
That market will get more and more competitive.
The bigger commercial stuff is much more tightly priced as it is, if a job is going to take several days for a single man to do then the job can run into several hundred quid, or even a few thousand on really big stuff.
You ain't gonna make £50 or £60 an hour on those jobs!
But you can and always will be able to on well priced domestics.
I have a lot of accounts between £20 and £40 that all pay very well indeed, and these and others like them aren't likely to change any time soon.
Roy Harding does mostly Domestic, and he does absolutely fantastic, not many will equal Roy on here, he has really got it sussed.
Ian
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Well done Macleod!
I didn't think we'd get 'The Chepstow 3' back fighting so aggressively, or as soon!
Good to see they haven't gone all pally pally ;D
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The one thing we never did was dom work,could never be bothered with the petty people of the houses flats what ever :-\ ;D any way the last time I did one I got 6 months for it :D
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well well well ive watched this for a while now superb argument why if you are the ultimate jedi and took over the universe dont you share your wisdom on here with all
as how to beat the likes of mite ocs initial etc who tell you what you do the job for our should i say how many washers they give you for each job
this is not a dig but if you are a brother w cleaner a tall you would give us your views on how you deal with these giants
as i feel if we all could do the same and m,bee some of the good guys will indevour to take a few from them in future
this will give the new and old something to think about
i have my own ideas as how to do it ,
would like to see others ideas as how to be a boss not a puppet
this would be a beter argument and more preductive for all who care about the industry
yours shammy davis
these are the guys that need addressing not your old guy up a ladder
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hi macleod how big is your company have you got any employees i do only comercial work ,i was thinking of going back and doing some domestic work to get my cash flow back up then i remembered how much harder the domestic work was go back 20 years i remember doing some terraced houses getting my ladders stuck on washing lines ,covered in dog doo but i still think that having some domestic work does help iam thinking about it ,my company turns 350k i still belive that makes me a small company and the problems i have with my comercial work life would be more stress free just domestic,i also know that with having just comercial work everbody is always after your work compertition is always high ,as for £30 for a book i will tell you for free it was a good post it stired everbody kev twc.
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refer to this (Macleod's 'thing'):
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=16535.0[/url]
Thanks for the link.
It looks like I will net to be a bit harder nosed than I currently am in order to get more commercial work.
Time to change my outlook I think,
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Look folks - the grass is always greener etc.
Rule 1 Get organised
When it's raining don't loaf in front the telly - put on your glad rags and canvas and unless you're just starting out only take on good stuff.
Rule 2
A job should be valued by whether it is profitable and longlasting (as far as you can see), not whether it is domestic or commercial.
Rule 3
Cull your round by continually adding cream at the top and dropping rubbish at the bottom.
Rule 4
Be flexible, but don't get walked on.
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Domestic = full belly and roof over our heads.
commercial = Cream cakes on top.
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Bulk Residential
Pros:
• Easy business to build
• Compact rounds
• High cash to cheque ratio
• Good cash flow
Cons:
• Low customer loyalty
• Low value
• Increased competition during summer
• Collecting may eat into your free time
• Difficult to grow & develop
• Staff difficulties, if they see money changing hands
High End Residential
Pros:
• High level of customer loyalty
• Higher earning/profit potential
• Higher level of self esteem (people want you to clean for them)
• High cash to cheque ratio
• Good cash flow
• Natural progression to commercial contracts (These are the people who run their own business)
Cons:
• Higher level of professionalism required
• Experience essential
• Bigger territory required
• More travelling between jobs
• Longer time to build business
Local Commercial
Pros:
• High level of customer loyalty
• Higher earning/profit potential
• High level of self esteem
• Good cash to cheque ratio
• Good cash flow
• Work rain or shine
Cons:
• Increased competition
• Higher level of experience required
• May take years to build the business
• Contracts can be lost for reasons beyond your control
Blue Chip/National Accounts
Pros:
• High value contracts
• Elite within industry
• Easier business to grow & develop
• High value business when time to sell
Cons:
• 30-90 day payment terms
• 60-70% will be sub-contract
• Profit wholly dependent upon speed, efficiency, quality workmanship and avoiding call backs (500 panes/day)
• High degree of professionalism required
• Takes years & dedication to succeed
THE END
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Which wonderful training course came up with all this?
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So all you Domestic Boys tell me why do you do it? When it rains you cant work your mad!
http://WFP & Commercial rulz ok! ;)
The weather has been crap all week apart from today, i've only 2 houses to do tomorrow (1hr) & thats tomorrows work done, ;D.
Who says you cant work in the rain, ???.
Macc
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poleman, spot on
high end residential works for me, got another home for special needs today as a result of quality service and presentation i.e they like me
simbo
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mcloud how did you start?? eh if you started on commercial( which i dont have ) then yr a lucky boy if youy started on domestic then yr a plonker cos thats the best start youll ever have & you should encourage it not slag it
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I like domestic and it doesn't pay so badly if it's organised right. And it's more interesting that doing 20'X18' panes all day long...Long live the Mrs Smiths and her £10 once a month and the best cuppa ever!
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macleod,
having read the entire list of replys im seeing both arguments however propole summed up well,
domestic work is great for cash flow and i know a couple of companies that only do domestic and have 3/4 vans each
i also know the same of commercial cleaning contractors who have 3/4 vans
both on the road with two guys working 4/5 days per week
if im honest i would say the guys with commercial work have there working day a little easier in terms of ay to day running but thats it!
the simplist way to run domestic work is on winter hours even in the summer ie first clean at 8:15am last clean at 4:15pm and base the working week over 4.2 days
yes in poor conditions ie rain then commercial can be done and not so with domestic.
i origionally started with domestic then moved onto commercial you know hairdressers etc then onto real commercial/blue chip and ended up covering work across the south of england from plymouth - dover and up to wales and ipswich
looking after airports etc
so i can only say that both are ok
it just depends on which you prefer
rgds
stu
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i do 90% commercial but i do like to get on my domestic for a natter and a cuppa .plus when you do domestic it feels like youre more apreciated ,and there is good money to be made from it but i would never call a window cleaner for being just domestic ,the window cleaner who cleans where i live is only domestic and he does fine plus he picks his own hours not like some commercial and hes the most laidback bloke i know so hes not stressing to much about picking commercial work up
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You get the choice of a commercial contract for £200 or a domestic job for £200. I know what 90 % of window cleaners would choose!
Tax man dictates your work If your commercial, you dictate what you earn if domestic
Clear vision
I dont understand this bit, are you saying , that you should not declare all your domestic work ?
Thanks
DavI
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elllo DavI :o