Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 04:25:48 pm

Title: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 04:25:48 pm
You have been asked to quote for a large complex.

the 'company' that cleans the windows at the moment is one old bloke and his ladder.

he practically works there full time, and you are led to believe he only has this one big job and nothing else

you have a family to support and the income is really needed.

so the moral question is, do you quote, knowing that if you get this job he will not have any income and is of an age that he will not get other work.

answers please

by the way this is the real reason why i hate WAHR. i hate it because blokes like this are losing all their work because they dont have wfp (due to cost or just dont like it or just feel they are to old to change etc etc).

Title: Re: moral question
Post by: supernova77 on October 23, 2006, 04:30:53 pm
At the end of the day business is business... If the client want someone with WFP then he'll be out the door anyway even if you don't quote for it.

Andy
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 04:42:07 pm
cheers tall bloke,

thats what i think, but it bugs me
I hate the thought that wfp or WAHR can kill off this blokes work... even though i dont even know him.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: L plate on October 23, 2006, 04:43:57 pm
If it’s commercial  
Quote
If you don’t some one else will
It sound if he’s going to lose the job anyway  

It’s hard not to fell bad when it’s his main job
But business is business
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: busydaffodil on October 23, 2006, 04:46:27 pm
Hmm....difficult.  

I think my decision would be based on how well I know this guy and how much people respect him & like him.  
It would also depend on how much I NEEDED the money.    

I dont think I would sleep at night knowing I had intentionally put an old man on the dole without GOOD justification.   "Business is business" is a get out clause to me.....allowing us to do things not 100% morally correct.   I might be weird in my opinion but I think it the reason I have been sucessfully self employed for 18 yrs & have loyal and respectful staff that have been with me for many years too.   My opinion is that we should "treat others as we would like to be treated".
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 04:51:35 pm
i rekon that he could do it another year
but
then he would be replaced becasue of H&S WAHR...

i want to agree with you daff, but if its not me it will be someone else... and soon!

Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Mike_G on October 23, 2006, 04:56:12 pm
If you are concerned about this chap quote it and try to give him a bit of work, maybe he could do insides and the ground floor outside and you can pole the rest.

That way you get a bit more work and he wont lose everything, not great but better than nothing.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 05:00:07 pm
i also thought about this, but looking at the windows today i could not find a single window (4 hours) that looked okay... they all were dirty, streaked etc etc...

so i could take him on but still get rubbish windows and how long before they got rid of me!
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Mike_G on October 23, 2006, 05:08:46 pm
How often do they want it done?
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 05:19:49 pm
portions of it is cleaned every week, according to the schedule
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: sair on October 23, 2006, 05:44:17 pm
there s no issue of morality, iam sorry to say.

age is not an excuse to not doing the work properly, if windows are cleaned that bad up a ladder perhaps he shouldnt be up a ladder in the first place 

if you dont some one else will

quote fair and price it well
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Mike_G on October 23, 2006, 05:53:25 pm
If he is doing a bad job it is odds on that he will lose the job soon enough, as mentioned by others price it fair and see what happens. You might find they are paying peanuts and hence the poor work, you might scare the hell out of em with your price and they will stick with the old boy.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: WavieDavie on October 23, 2006, 06:05:10 pm
he practically works there full time, and you are led to believe he only has this one big job and nothing else

And the moral of the story is - don't put all your eggs in the one basket.

Here endeth the sermon.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: busydaffodil on October 23, 2006, 06:16:11 pm
so the question has now changed.  It now has the fact that the present contractors work is rubbish added to it.  That missing information in the original question throws a different light on it and could alter someones opinion.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 06:41:02 pm
i counldnt find a single clean window... but thats not why they are looking for quotes...
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Sir Squeaky on October 23, 2006, 06:49:15 pm
You should leave it until they get rid of him, not take his work and source of income.
He probably has family too.

If you take his work, he's hopefully going to slash your tyres and snap your pole.

I'd hate to think what I'd do if some wfp user tried to take my work. >:(
Put it this way, he still wouldn't be able to work... ;)
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Fast 1 * on October 23, 2006, 06:51:07 pm
he practically works there full time, and you are led to believe he only has this one big job and nothing else

And the moral of the story is - don't put all your eggs in the one basket.

Here endeth the sermon.
:)
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: windows_chepstow on October 23, 2006, 06:51:30 pm
Does anyone think Squeaks feels insecure about window cleaners with a pole?  LOL.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 06:54:47 pm
squeeky im loath to agree with you, so i wont  ;)

i agree with what you say, but if i had not been told this about the guys situation i would not be so concerned...

but there we have it.... if its not me it will be someone else...

not worried about a ladder boy getting upset, but i hate the fact that he is gonna lose the work one way or the other...

so if its not my tyres, its gonna be someone elses  :-\

Title: Re: moral question
Post by: windows_chepstow on October 23, 2006, 07:03:19 pm
so if its not my tyres, its gonna be someone elses  :-\


I've read posts here from guys who've had a large percentage of their work come from one or both of those jobs and end up in dire.

As Wavie says, it's sensible not to put all your eggs in one basket.

You've got a difficult deciscion to make.  Do you go for this account and feel bad if you get it, or do you leave it; only for someone else to get it?

Personally, if it were me, I'd leave it.  I've too much work, and only looking to take on better priced stuff; dropping my lower priced jobs, so I can do without any 'moral dilemas'.

But your family comes first, and if you need it, you should quote.

I'm sure this 'old guy' will get by somehow, begging on the street or something; remember people are more generous towards vagrants comming upto Christmas.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 07:04:23 pm
oh thanks tosh!!  >:(

i feel a whole lot better!!  :-\
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Extremeclean on October 23, 2006, 07:06:18 pm
You should leave it until they get rid of him, not take his work and source of income.
He probably has family too.

If you take his work, he's hopefully going to slash your tyres and snap your pole.

I'd hate to think what I'd do if some wfp user tried to take my work. >:(
Put it this way, he still wouldn't be able to work... ;)

And they wonder why window cleaners have such a bad reputation  ::)

Its inevitable that this guy will lose the work anyway. You can do business with honour and morals and I would only quote for the work if asked to in view of the situation. If I got it I would probably try to offer the guy a job but only if he would work my way and his standards were what I expect.

And never I repeat never put all your eggs in one basket.

Rich.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 23, 2006, 07:08:35 pm
i know my rates but not his.

i guess he would be ideal for internal stuff but... do i want the extra agro?
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Sir Squeaky on October 23, 2006, 07:35:17 pm
not worried about a ladder boy getting upset...
Not a wise attitude poleboy.
You're outnumbered by 10 to1.

But then all that work they get off you...I suppose it's only fair they give you something back. ;D ;D
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macc on October 23, 2006, 07:38:25 pm
lol Squeaky.

Macc
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: WavieDavie on October 23, 2006, 07:42:12 pm
Do you know if the complex have mentioned to him that they're unhappy?

If they have, and he hasn't pulled up the standard of his work or changed his work practices, he deserves to lose the job. I don't really think he's dropped every other job he had to concentrate on one biggy.

If they haven't, and you're on good (ish) terms with them, could you let them know how you feel, and ask them to mention to him know what he needs to do to keep it when it's "put out to tender" rather than just cutting him off dead.

Should I join the Samaritans instead?
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: DaveWilkinson on October 23, 2006, 07:46:41 pm
I thought you had been asked to quote for this job, if so quote it.

Maybe have a word with the guy, you may find out a number of things like he's sick of the job ( hence bad quality )

Find out if he knows his work is up for grabs, he may be unaware and at least he has a bit of warning now.

You never know he might be retiring and looking forward to someone taking over.

If your still stressing over it quote it high, and let the gods decide.


Title: Re: moral question
Post by: billozz on October 23, 2006, 09:09:23 pm
i think he is going to lose the work anyway by the sounds of it so if you dont take it you'll find someone else is doing it in a cple of months
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: rosskesava on October 23, 2006, 09:16:04 pm
I might be alone on this but why had the old bloke relied on just 1 job?

All window cleaners know that work comes and work goes, especially commercial work. That's why I'm alway on the lookout for more work all the time. If he's got just that one just then maybe he has ignore his own history because at some point, he must have had more jobs. Surely?

Personally, it's the rule of the wild. I'd give a quote. It's upto the company and I'm sorry to say it, the person doing the job has his part in the companies reasons for asking in the first place.

Title: Re: moral question
Post by: AuRavelling79 on October 23, 2006, 09:26:27 pm
Up until about six years ago an old boy (mid eighties age wise, so old to still be working) did shops and a few accounts round and about. Frankly, he was past it, his work was smeary but some folk kept him on to be kind.

He was known as a workaholic, low-priced window cleaner and looked as if he didn't have tuppence to his name. He drove a 1983 Astra estate "A" reg. (bit of a shed like my car ;D)

Sadly he fell off his ladder, cracked his skull, had two weeks in intensive care and died.

In the local rag it was reported that his estate amounted to over £300,000! (If he owned the house he lived in would have been worth about £80,000 at the time.)

Did he need the money more than a middle-aged window cleaner with a family and a mortgage?

Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Spruce on October 23, 2006, 09:43:01 pm
Hi
What if he is the one that has told them that he can't carry on much longer.
Spruce
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Fast 1 * on October 23, 2006, 10:06:22 pm
price it up.If you get it do it.Simple.  Do you actually know this fellow on a personal level?If not,what is there to think about? Hes a business,you are a business.If you want to ,tell him about it to maybe ease your conscience.Its a dog eat dog world mate
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: Paul Coleman on October 23, 2006, 10:08:22 pm
oh thanks tosh!!  >:(

i feel a whole lot better!!  :-\

Well you could invite him around for Christmas dinner as he should be pretty hungry by then.  Better hide your motor though.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: George P on October 24, 2006, 07:15:35 am
surely whenever you take on a job some one was doing it before, therfore you are always going to upset someone. if i was in your position and you know him tell him you will quote - as said earlier if you dont someone will (try and explain this to him if poss). did this with a mate years ago - i said if i was asked to do his work then i would as i would sooner me do it than someone else and they will change anyway.said and i would expect to also do the same. this works well as on occasions this happens we just phone each other and explain the situation
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: mark f on October 25, 2006, 03:21:02 pm
macleod your a top bloke. people like you are scarce these days. Im similar to you, but if someone is doing a lousy job then i would quote, because other companies will be asked. If the customer is just trying to get it done on the cheap, then i wouldnt bother.
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: matt on October 25, 2006, 04:56:04 pm
what about getting the work and giving him a day or 2 work doing WFP, you make money out of it, he still earns something

Title: Re: moral question
Post by: pjulk on October 25, 2006, 05:37:36 pm
I would price it up.

Also if i did get the job and had some rubbish work i wanted rid of i would give it to him so that way he still has money comming in and you still better your work.

Paul
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: shammy davis jnr on October 25, 2006, 08:09:11 pm
get the job exsplane its was nothing personal and say they wanted it done by this method
and give him a demo and a shot tell him about whr then ask him if he would like to help you on this contract  he wont loose but gain a new exsperience i think most old boys would be happy for some new purpose and help  aswell as a few quid win win and you would get less stick from managers becase he is a fimilliar face
Title: Re: moral question
Post by: macleod on October 26, 2006, 05:00:12 pm
ok so here how it ended.

i got the job & but split the work so that the old boy cleans the reception area and some internal stuff, but he has his own contract to do this work seperate to me.

so i do my stuff to my standard, and he is inside safe! if he messes up then it really is down to him.