Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: D.Salkeld_Ltd on October 20, 2006, 07:00:27 pm
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Hi All,
A while back I posted a Question on RO membrane TDS raising after 6 months.
I found out why today:-
LImescale in our water. Our water is hard about 290 - 310 ppm but it's full of lime.
The carbon pre filters do not remove any of the lime and it clogges the RO in no time - 6 months!!
So be ware!!
David
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D,
Well bu**er me. There was I telling banging on about the importance of softening in my posts, and all I got was "waste of time", "expensive" etc.
But now I am vindicated.
Sorry about your scaled up membrane, but thanks for posting about your problem.
Fully automatic softeners are at http://www.freshwatersystems.co.uk/domsoft_softeners.htm
They start a £350 inc vat & delivery.
steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
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Steve,
You are, as I have found out, right. But, even with replaceing the 100gpd membrane every 6 months at sy £45 it's, as I have been informed, cheaper than runnina softener. I was told by our local water treatment people; Pozanni in Louth that a softener would cost me £5 - £7 per week to run.
David
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Flush your r/o thru on a weekly basis.
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Hi David,
We have been Northern regional dealers for EcoWater softeners for the last umpteen years, and are acknowledged water softener experts. With salt at about £7 per 25 Kg bag, with a good automatic softener it will cost about 55 pence to regenerate it for every 2000 litres of water at 300 ppm hardness that it treats. If your RO wastes about half the water fed to it (and it could be much worse than that), this works out at 55 pence per 1000 litres of product water.
Obviously the cost will be in proportion to the hardness of your tap water, but my calculations are based on the figures you quoted.
I think you should take the Pozzani forecast with a pinch of salt, and do your own sums, knowing your RO and your water usage. If your water for your business is taken from your own domestic supply, the arguments for installing a softener in your home as a legitimate business expense are very much stronger. We all know the value of "brownie points" from er indoors!
Give me a ring on 01704 541578 if you need any advice.
Yours, Andrew
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Malc,
I Do for about 10 mins every week. I am considering an autoflush, might flush it more often thus not allow the limescale to develop?
Andrew and Steve,
Thanks for your expert advice. I am looking at your web sites and will be intouch by phone next week to find out more info.
Do you think an autoflush will help?
David
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Flushing will not reduce by much the scaling up problem, all you are doing is passing more hard water across the membrane.
Ask you self "why the membrane makers say "use soft water" there must be a reason.
The other reason is that membranes can get reject sodium (from softening) much easier that calcium (from hard water).
I do agree that cost with a small system there’s not much in it.
So lets say you get 6 moths out of your membrane, on soft water you would get at least 3 years. So at £45 each that’s £90 per year on hard and £15 on soft. A softener will last at least 10 years so that’s £900 on hard or £150 on soft, now its getting a bit more interesting. Plus if you fit in your home as suggested by Andrews you will save loads of additional costs throughout your home, about one third of all your soaps, detergents etc. and if your membranes scaled up that quick you water heater and boilers will be full of it costing you up to 15% more in electric & gas. Plus best of all it can go down as a legitimate business expense.
Take a look at http://www.freshwatersystems.co.uk/domsoft_softeners.htm
for a good range of automatic softeners.
steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
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Water softeners knock your pressure down. If you are in a low pressure area this could be critical.
Are you sure the membrane problem isn't partly caused by low pressure?
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The average water softener will run at 50 litres per min with a 1 bar drop. If your pressure is so low you should be using a pump. On normal small ROs (even a Merlin only runs at about 7 litres per min) where you need only a few litres per min the pressure drop will be small.
steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
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my water is 460 at tap
ive run my RO for over 2 years now, not changed any prefilters, i flush every week for a few mins
i only use a 60 GPD RO though
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460 at the tap means nothing, what is the 460 made up of that makes the difference.
Even a 60 GPD membrane can handle 1000ppm but if its 999 of calcium hardness you will get scale. If its 1 of calcium then you wont scale up.
steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
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Steve and Andrew,
I am considering a Water Softener.
I don;t understand how much salt it will use.
I use about 3000ltrs water for w/c (600 pure and RO @ 5-1=3000ltr)
and our house there is a family of 4
Which of your softeners do you recomend and how much salt will I use and explain the spec charts in your catalouges
Thanks
David
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D,
The average person uses 160 litres perdday, so your 4 people will use about 640 a day. Add to ths you wc water 3000/7 = 430 = a totals of 1070
Take for example our Freshwater 6000 http://www.freshwatersystems.co.uk/6000info.html
2045 litres per regen this would regen on average every two days (2045/2 = 1022) it may occasionally regen every day if you water use rises. So for arguments sake we will say 1 regen ever 1.5 days. So from the chart you can see it uses 1.6kgs per regen. A bag of salt (25kgs) cost about £7 so it will cost you (7 /((25 / 1.6)*1.5))) 30 pence a day in salt.
The running costs on most of our softeners is about the same, so for best value with your family of 4 & your wc go for the Freshwater 6000 or 6000XL.
If you want any question answered just give us a call.
steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
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I have been ruuning my r/o for 18 months tds 380 and i have only changed the prefilters.
and still get a reading of 009 before D/I and thats using 400 - 600 ltrs a day
My mate has a softener before his merlin and it costs him a fortune in salt.
He reckons its the worst thing he has bought.
Paul
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Paul,
Is it a water softener or one of these made up Mickey Mouse things. A real water softener automatically calculates the right amount of salt of use each time it regens. Your mates "water softener" is set up wrong or it’s on of these Mickey Mouse things.
steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk