Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: macleod on October 16, 2006, 05:46:19 pm
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Just been on the phone to HSE and the Local council
Does anyone argue with thess 3 points?
1. Both the window cleaner and the business that is having their windows cleaned must do a risk assessment for every job.
2. Both the window cleaner and the business must ensure use the safest method possible is used.
3. The hierarchy of safest methods begins with, not to work at height.
So if you accept these three points from the WAHR then the HSE really don’t have to have a Law to ban ladders for cleaning windows… because through this Law they practically already have!
In fact I don’t use ladders for any of my commercial work at all. It’s WFP or Unger Telescopic-Poles or they don’t get cleaned – with the site owner’s agreement and that’s only about a dozen windows out of 1,000’s.
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Macleod,
I agree with your three points?
We have a Working at Height Directive and we have a Health and Safety Executive.
I guess the HSE's job is to educate those who work at height about the directive, safe practise and enforce the Directive, so what is it you're asking?
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are ladders in effect banned?
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NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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refer to above 3 points...
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Macleod,
There's lots going on with reference to this, but basically, in a nutshell, ladders are to be used as a last resort when it comes to window cleaning.
The WAHD became effective in April 2005; yet many window cleaners still routinely use ladders. I still often use ladders, even though I also use a WFP; so I'm not anti-ladder. I just understand the rules.
I've read from two different sources that the HSE aren't going to enforce the WAHD with reference to window cleaners till Spring, next year. Apparantly, it's to give us window cleaners time to get kitted out with WFP!
Even then, I think they'll be mostly innefective at stopping us from using ladders. The poo will only hit the fan when we have an accident.
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Just been on the phone to HSE and the Local council
Does anyone argue with thess 3 points?
1. Both the window cleaner and the business that is having their windows cleaned must do a risk assessment for every job.
2. Both the window cleaner and the business must ensure use the safest method possible is used.
3. The hierarchy of safest methods begins with, not to work at height.
So if you accept these three points from the WAHR then the HSE really don’t have to have a Law to ban ladders for cleaning windows… because through this Law they practically already have!
In fact I don’t use ladders for any of my commercial work at all. It’s WFP or Unger Telescopic-Poles or they don’t get cleaned – with the site owner’s agreement and that’s only about a dozen windows out of 1,000’s.
I believe the three points you've raised are basically correct though my understanding of the situation (and I could well be wrong) is that it's not quite as simple as you have written.
On point 1.
Although a risk assesment should be carried out for each job, if you are not using employees (i.e. you're a sole trader), that risk assesment need not be written down (unless the customer specifically requires it). It is sufficient to look around a job and note mentally any risks (if any) and work appropriately around those risks. If this is not possible or reasonable then the risk should be removed or the part of the job where there is a non-removable risk should be left. A classic example is a flakey looking flat roof that needs to be stood upon in order to clean some windows. Securing the ladder - probably with a slip resistant device - is generally considered OK but can you really be certain that the roof will hold your weight. I've had my foot through an old chipboard roof before following torrential rain where water seeped through the joints (N.B. I believe chipboard has been banned as roof decking for some years now because of this problem).
Points 2 and 3 may be a grey area in some situations. Sometimes the safest method cannot produce a job of sufficient quality. The regs appear to be silent on how much regard needs to be given to quality of work. e.g. there are some situations where WFP doesn't clean very well such as oxidised frames, poor quality of puttying, bad seals, flakey paintwork. I suppose taking the view that a reduction in quality is a price worth paying for the sake of safety is a valid one but it might be hard to convince a customer. Personally, the only time I use a ladder now is to get on flat roofs - apart from a couple of jobs where I need to go over the top and down the other side. Because I'm lowering the ladder from the roof I cannot ensure non-slip at the bottom so I only do this if there is a solid wall to foot it against.
If I'm wrong about any of the above, someone please say so as I am willing to learn too.
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Hi Macleod
I am one of the individuels that attended and coresponded with the Hse meetings etc and ladders are not banned nor would most sensible people want them to be.What you have been told by your council is correct and although you will get a lot tell you otherwise its when an accident happens that is when the poo hits the fan. Ladders can be used but only when you can justify its use through a risk assesment and even then it needs a stability device top or bottom.
Steve
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If you not got wfp, you no other choice then to use ladders.
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If you not got wfp, you no other choice then to use ladders.
There's an article in PWC Mag that covers this point exactly. I can't remember what it said though.
But my mag is in the car, and I don't want to go outside. And I've paid for my copy, where as you ugly lot obviously haven't.
Then there's copyright. Can I copy what's in there for you lot?
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Ladders are NOT banned BUT can only be used when all other means of doing a job at height have been ruled out. What Steve Lowe says is correct. It would be crazy to completely ban ladders but as Steve says a risk assesment MUST be made before using ladders. The WAHR do have grey areas that are open to interpretation but wait until the first bad accident and prosecution. Thats when the poo will hit the fan as others have already said. The WAHR applies to private properties just as much as commercial ones.
Heres a good little site which I use. It has a link to the WAHR which if you read it correctly and not with any bias does make it clear.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/flashindex.htm
Rich.
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Health and Safety these days is not about Health and Safety. It's about INSURANCE CLAIMS!!! and the risk of them!!
Take, for example, the council who stripped a horse chestnut of the conkers - apparently "for chilgrens safety" - A load of Conkers!!! it was because some claim crazy car owner had a conker fall on his nice new car and, apparently, dint the bodywork. Then some smat arsed lawer decides to seu the council for letting thier tree drop conkers!!!
The local authorities and companies are nervouse that they could easily get seud if someone falls from a ladder.
My opinion is :
If you employ people then think very seriosely about using ladders. Probably been using them for years and they are like a part of your body but if one of your workers has a fall and injures themselves they will need to claim something and, iff you have overlooked some detail of the complicated HSE Regs, some smart ared lawer is gonna have you!!!
The local contractor in our town, who has been doing the town hall for 30 odd years and local council work is now approaching me to do some high work where he has experienced questions about the use of ladders.
David
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so if you follow the 3 points i mentioned above then ladders are so far down the list of options that they are the absolute last choice which means that if the only way to clean a window is to use a ladder then you probably shouldnt clean it cos it clearly must be the type of window wher you are likly to fall... so in effect ladders, working at height to clean windows is banned...
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so if you follow the 3 points i mentioned above then ladders are so far down the list of options that they are the absolute last choice which means that if the only way to clean a window is to use a ladder then you probably shouldnt clean it cos it clearly must be the type of window wher you are likly to fall... so in effect ladders, working at height to clean windows is banned...
Yes. The principle of the WAHD is that working at height should be a last resort. Flat roofs and stuff.
Anyway, here's what the PWC Mag say about this subject. I hope I'm not breaching copyright...
'What if I work from ladders because I don't have a pole system?'
Tricky question. Technically, if the job could reasonalby be done with a water-fed pole, then you are in breach of the regulations by using a ladder. However, the HSE has indicated that it will take a lenient approach to enforcement in the first year in order to help window cleaners who don't yet have the appropriate equipment to get kitted up. That period of lecniencey will end next spring, so it's definitely time to start looking into going water-fed'
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[quote author=macleod link=topic=26466.msg200670#msg200670 date=1161022955]
so if you follow the 3 points i mentioned above then ladders are so far down the list of options that they are the absolute last choice which means that if the only way to clean a window is to use a ladder then you probably shouldnt clean it cos it clearly must be the type of window wher you are likly to fall... so in effect ladders, working at height to clean windows is banned................
Hi,Not All,or Ever.....If you dont own a WFP.System you will still be able to use ladders.If you think Im wrong,ask HSE.At the moment we have a part 1 water ban on in the South East Where I live,if it gets worse they can implement a stage 3 drought order,this prohibits all water use and stand pipes will be put on in the streets,thats the theory,when I asked HSE about this they said you will still be able to use ladders but not WFP.as this would be banned,so therefore as this is now acceptable due to a drought order you could argue as its safe to use ladders when a drought order is in force it follows therefore you can use ladders when its not
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HSE wouldnt tell you how to clean a window as it depends upon the risk assesment (as per point 1)
WFP is not banned rather
therefore even if you have a temp ban the company may still decide the safest way to clean their windows is not at height (as per point 2) this doesnt mean use ladders instead (see point 3) instead you have to work your way down the hierarchy of safest methods and ladders are still the last resort... so in effect ladders are banned even in a drought
a side point Thames, and other SE Water companies amended the drought order to allow Window Cleaners using pole systems to be able to draw water as long as it is used with a tank http://www.nfmwgc.com/documents/Drought_Order_Decision.pdf)
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in answer to the question "can I work from ladders because I don't have a pole system?"
can you drive a car if you dont have a lisence? yes but its breaking the law.
can i change a fuse but a dont have a screwdriver? yes but its not safe.
can i
just cos you dont do a risk assesment and dont have the 'right' equipment doesnt mean you should carry on and break the law. it doesnt mean that its ok. it doesnt mean that we should all say"...but Fred has been cleaning windows for 20years and he is a nice bloke..."
ignorance (or should i say avoidance) is not a get out of jail card.
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
Class! ;D
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thank you sqeeky!!
spose wfp needs to be justified with manipulated rules! ;D
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
Interesting, squeaky - would you tell us in what circumstances you "worked next to HSE officers"?
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Malc,
I can see where you're going, but remember, 'Don't argue with fools!'.
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[quote author=macleod link=topic=26466.msg200705#msg200705 date=1161025671]
in answer to the question "can I work from ladders because I don't have a pole system?"
can you drive a car if you dont have a lisence? yes but its breaking the law.
can i change a fuse but a dont have a screwdriver? yes but its not safe.
can i
just cos you dont do a risk assesment and dont have the 'right' equipment doesnt mean you should carry on and break the law. it doesnt mean that its ok. it doesnt mean that we should all say"...but Fred has been cleaning windows for 20years and he is a nice bloke..."
ignorance (or should i say avoidance) is not a get out of jail card.No one said anything about not doing a risk assesment,to compare some thing as vague as The Working At Hieghts Directive or H.S.E. Policy on working with ladders to driving a car without a Liscence which We all know is a Criminal Offence is to put it bluntly a bit slack,if WHD or the HSE were definative there could be no arguaments,but its such a grey area there allways will be.
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Malc,
I can see where you're going, but remember, 'Don't argue with fools!'.
I only do that when I talk to myself Tosh!
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
Interesting, squeaky - would you tell us in what circumstances you "worked next to HSE officers"?
Building sites and new shops opening in town.
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
Class! ;D
Ladder police ;D police only deal with civil law ::)
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the funny thig is squeeky to clean the police station or any justice centre or any council building you need WFP.... read the tenders and weep young man :'(
so they may turn a blind eye, but its like the bloke who drives his car with no licence... all his mates think he is clever but is he? nah, hes just breakin the law.
anyway... its great you think its rubbish cos you know what i say is true.
see the thing is im not trying to justify wfp... i just asked if you all agree with those 3 points i raised at the begining...
i know some of you dont like the answer, but hey i dont care...
i dont think window cleaners are above the law
so wise up all you ladder boys
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
Interesting, squeaky - would you tell us in what circumstances you "worked next to HSE officers"?
Building sites and new shops opening in town.
Now that is very interesting - how recently Squeaky?
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
Class! ;D
Ladder police ;D police only deal with civil law ::)
The Police Only Deal with Criminal Law Not Civil,thats why its called Civil Law ;D ;D ;D
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Quote . . . see the thing is im not trying to justify wfp... i just asked if you all agree with those 3 points i raised at the begining...
i know some of you dont like the answer, but hey i dont care...
i dont think window cleaners are above the law
so wise up all you ladder boys . . .
see the thing is im not trying to justify wfp - really! ::)
JohnL
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Now that is very interesting - how recently Squeaky?
This year a couple of times, and end of last year.
I had a chat with a HSE bloke while up a ladder on a building site a couple of months back, and all he said was "Hope the buliders haven't made your work too hard!"
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Squeeks Mate,
I personally agree totaly with you!!!
Load of old B*****S
But as I said in my previouse post - it's all about claims!!!!
and sometime in the not too distant future HSE will make it nigh near a criminal offence to clean windows with a ladder.
And perfectly good hard workers like you ARE going to be stopped using a ladder to clean windows.
I honestley believe that!
David
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[
But as I said in my previouse post - it's all about claims!!!!
and sometime in the not too distant future HSE will make it nigh near a criminal offence to clean windows with a ladder.
And perfectly good hard workers like you ARE going to be stopped using a ladder to clean windows.
I honestley believe that!
David
then how come as an industry everyone seems to be either accepting of it or in other cases downright happy about it
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wfp users = mona; grey haired bloke... ;D
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Squeeks Mate,
And perfectly good hard workers like you ARE going to be stopped using a ladder to clean windows.
I honestley believe that!
David
They will still have the option of putting the squeegee on a pole and cleaning that way. Good results can easily be achieved with a bit of practice.
Peter
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Squeeks Mate,
And perfectly good hard workers like you ARE going to be stopped using a ladder to clean windows.
I honestley believe that!
David
They will still have the option of putting the squeegee on a pole and cleaning that way. Good results can easily be achieved with a bit of practice.
Peter
Then squeaky-clean will become "streaky-clean?" :o ;D
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Squeeks Mate,
And perfectly good hard workers like you ARE going to be stopped using a ladder to clean windows.
I honestley believe that!
David
They will still have the option of putting the squeegee on a pole and cleaning that way. Good results can easily be achieved with a bit of practice.
Peter
Then squeaky-clean will become "streaky-clean?" :o ;D
Not if he got enough practice he wouldn't. He could always use it as a transition into WFP. He would be half way there, being safe and still using his squeegee. Then maybe one day he could attached a brush and feed some purified water up the pole, to speed things up.
Peter
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If ladders are banned why are thet still selling them. surely the shops are, breaking the law breaking the law,and all those vans cars .waggons. carrying ladders are breaking the law breaking the law,all those fire engines are breaking the law,breaking the law,all the burglers are breaking the law breaking the law,all the painters are breaking the law breaking the law,all the roofers are breaking the law breaking the law,all the plumbers are breaking the law breaking the law.all the electricans are breaking the law breaking the law,there semms to be a lot of people who are breaking the law breaking the law,so to say ladders are banned seems to be a load of BULL rubbish.
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so we all agree with the 3 points then...
thought so...
;D
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One way to resolve this once and for all is to invite a member of the HSE to this
forum, then everyone would no where we stand.
Now how would you do your risk assesment on the house below.
All the top windows are a risk using ladders therefore I would say this is when the
HSE guidance comes into effect.
Doug
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Load of rubbish.
That's all I'm going to say. ::)
I've worked next to HSE officers and around the police and no-ones ever said a word.
HSE officers on a building site dont work for the HSE but are representatives from the building company with regard to H&S.
Many are ignorant about or fed up with regualtions to the degree that they either let things go or simply know no better.
I can understand you using ladders on domestic work, but to use them on a building site puts yourself and the building company at risk.
When they do start getting stricter, building sites are where they will tighten up first.
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okay a few of you need to try and keep up...
we all agree with the 3 points.
so what does this mean?
the WAHR/HSE says to do a risk assesment then use the safest method possible... the risk hierarchy has as a starting point not to work at height.
so this is my point you DONT need a NEW law to ban ladders for window cleaning, because THIS law has already done that!
for window cleaning, ladders are not banned but you just cant use them.
come on ladder boys wise up...you know im right.
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What's your problem? >:(
Are you working for the HSE?
Or is your mate asking to do some investigating.
My guess is you're posing as a window cleaner on here to try and cause trouble for honest hard working people. ;)
Rumbled you have I? ;)
If so.....go away.
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Bumper - Ladders are only banned if there is a practical alternative to using them for the particular job in hand.
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Wfp users use all this to their advantage,hoping people use them rather than trad users.Its a shame there is this divide
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Bumper - Ladders are only banned if there is a practical alternative to using them for the particular job in hand.
Which is wfp, wait untill the exemption is up april 07.
However im not holding my breath, what exactly can they do, NOTHING!!
W.A.H.D IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER JOKE I LAUGH IN THE FACE OF IT, AND EUROPE FOR THAT MATTER >:( >:( >:(
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yep its a total pain, this country stinks! But when a window cleaner gets awarded 1.6 million after falling of his ladder on a house and his employer is sued because of not providing proper access equipment, im afraid we all better make the switch. (this happened recently).
And when some prat of a window cleaner sues a house holder when he falls off cos some lawyer says he can. Then that could spell the end of domestic window cleaning cos they will do it them selves. Just like many are now doing thier decorating etc because of the extortionate prices involved with scaffolding etc.
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Wfp users use all this to their advantage,hoping people use them rather than trad users.Its a shame there is this divide
Part of the reason for this is that many wfp'ers have invested in new kit, partially on the basis that the HSE stance on ladders was becoming law. (which it did in April 2005)
If a wfp'er tells a householder, in good faith, that in his opinion that having a window cleaner using a ladder on their windows is against HSE guidelines than that is only reasonable.
Cost is no excuse. A backpack set up - including an R/o can be self-built for hundreds of pounds. You can use wfp from your car. If a trad w/c refuses to use wfp then he/she must face both the economic and legal consquences of his decision.
I won't weep tears for trad. guys who won't - rather than can't - change.
(However, I do feel great sympathy for guys working for trad. bosses who value their lives so cheaply.)
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my missus used to work for Kodak
i remember the fuss made by trad (film) photographers against digital...
the nonsense said was, cant get the same results, it will never last blah blah whinge whinge
now let me see what did happen?
oh yeah, the Digital boys got all the work and the Trad film guys are... now up ladders cleaning windows!!
come on ladder boys wise up!
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come on ladder boys wise up!
Let them be, fair play to them there only earning a living, if they are pros and have all the right gear, pointers etc working first floor domestic stuff, what does it matter.
Commercial is a diffrent ball game, and cowboys should all be shot.
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come on ladder boys wise up!
We are wise.
That's why we don't want to waste our money.
Get back to your HSE job and off this forum you politically correct fool.
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come on ladder boys wise up!
We are wise.
That's why we don't want to waste our money.
Get back to your HSE job and off this forum you politically correct fool.
The last resort of someone who cannot refute argument logically is personal abuse. It is born out of fear.
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Not another quote from the bible Malc.... ::)
I have no logical argument?
Like I said, HSE have no problem with ladder users.
I've found out first hand.
Can't you see what this prat is up to?
Why support him when he's just trying to cause trouble? ???
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Not another quote from the bible Malc.... ::)
I have no logical argument?
Like I said, HSE have no problem with ladder users.
I've found out first hand.
Can't you see what this prat is up to?
Why support him when he's just trying to cause trouble? ???
I just don't see him as causing trouble, Squeaky and I see no merit in "shouting" abuse at him for his stated views. It demeans any logical argument you may have.
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Ladders are not banned , nor is there any legislation due to ban them.
Window cleaners can still use ladders to clean windows.
The hse would like all methods to be considered first and the use of ladders as a last resort.
If using ladders they must be used safely and the same as any method a risk assessment should be done, even wfp carries risks of endangering staff and the public.
If you want clarification investigate the hse site and dont just take someones personal opinion as the definative word.
Dave
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The hse would like all methods to be considered first and the use of ladders as a last resort.
Dave
Dave, when you look at a window on your round David, and a practical alternative to a ladder can be found to clean it and you choose not to use that practical alternative but to use a ladder - are you not in breach of HSE regs?
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Malc
the answer is no , the hse accepts that there are many many reasons why you chose to use the ladder.
Have you considered if the customer does not want a wfp used on there property or the results from wfp are not suitable for the customer ?
wfp is a very good tool in fact excellent but if i wanted to be 100% sure a window is clean, then the only way is to get up close and personal to that window.
Did you see the recent case where a window cleaner fell on one of prince Charles properties , well that was only early this year, and dont you think Charlie has to be on the ball with the HSE.
You have to ask why was the window cleaner using ladders ?
simple wfp is not allowed on there windows
To satisfy yourself you should fully investigate the HSE site
Dave
Dave
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David - I didn't mention wfp in my last post - I simply asked that if you used a ladder when there was a practical alternative (whatever that might be) then would you be in breach of the regs?
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;D ;D ;D WHAT A LOAD OF CODSWALLOP!!!!!
99% OF WINDOWS LADDERS CAN GET, WFP CAN GET THERE TOO
THERES A CLAUSE, WHAT IF YOU HAVENT GOT WFP??????
YOUR EXTENSION POLE WILL DO A CRAP JOB, OH IVE DECIDED TO USE MY LADDER, THATS WITHING THE LAW.
BASICALLY IF YOU HAVENT GOT A WFP SYSTEM NO ONE CAN SAY ANYTHING.......... UNLESS YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT THEN YOU WILL GET BENT OVER AND H.S WOULD GO TO WORK ON YOUR ASS!!!!!!!!
W.A.H.R HAHAHAHAHA DO YOU KNOW WHEN APRIL THE 6TH CAME LAST YEAR I ACTUALLY THOUGH I WOULD HAVE TO STOP WORKING LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D CANT WAIT TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS APRIL 07
EUROPE >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
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And on the right wing of the Cleanitup Political Party we bring you - in ascending order - Adolf Hitler (Leader), Genghis Khan (Minister of War) and ProPole (Foreign Secretary) ;D
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Malc
The answer is still No
Dave
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The Health and Safety Executive is constantly reviewing the Working At Heights Directive.
Do try to bear in mind that the present Working At Heights Regulations contain numerous references, not to the banning of ladders, but rather their safe use.
They are all open documents for intelligent tradesmen to reference.
If all you do is rant and rave, either in favour of banning ladders, or in support of ladders, you just get lost in cat calling arguments.
If it's been raining and it's stopped you working today, I can understand you are all a little upset, but why resort to insulting one another on here?
Get your facts right! It's not that hard. Just work safe and follow the safety guidelines as much as is practical.
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Get your facts right! It's not that hard. Just work safe and follow the safety guidelines as much as is practical.
Thanks for that alternatively practical bit of advice PJ!
And Dave - I don't understand how you're reading the regs that way at all!
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;D
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Not every windowcleaning issue with a client is to do with working at heights.
On certain buildings there are preservation issues. Remember Purified water is capable of changing the colour of weathered stone, if used regularly the change will be permanent! breaching a very different regulation. This would apply to a number of Royal Residences, which train staff to comply strictly with the current H&S directives
There are other issues too.
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;D
A well thought out response!
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:-X
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;D
A well thought out response!
A sarcastic grumpy old man responce ;D
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Clarification was obviously needed. Not in the least bit grumpy, but yes, older.
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The law says that you must consider alternatives. If a window cleaner then considers that to clean the windows a ladder is considered the best means then they've complied with the WAHL's. The wording is 'consider an alternative' for short duration work. Not 'must use'. If, when working for a company, the company consider the risk using a ladder is too great, then that has to be followed. For private property, the householder is not expected to know what is safe and what is not, so the onus is on the window cleaner and a private house holder is not liable for any accidents because of that fact unless the risk was a known fact before hand to the householder.
Provided the height is under 9m and there is some type of safety device for the ladder even if it's rubber feet on the ladder, then that is ok. ( having said that, I'm not certain if it's over 6m on an unsecured ladder)
Provided a risk assessment has been done, which for a specific private property does not have to be written, a written generic risk assessment is good enough, and provided the person undertaking the work has an understanding of the risks involved, then the WAHL's have been complied with.
As Dave says above, ladders are not banned and the thing about choosing the best method, the best method would to not do them by any method available. Then there is zero risk. Risk is an accepted part of working. Reducing the risk, and thus reducing accidents, is what the WAHL's are about.
Cheers
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Use Your WFP, use your ladder, use what you like but most of all:
USE YOUR HEAD - BE CAREFUL AND SAFE!!
After 20 odd years and a few scars we should know what we are doing and don't need no bloody university pen pushers in offices to tell us our trade!!!!!
David
There thats my rant over.
I,m of to bed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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There is no 'minimum' safe height for unsecured ladders.
The principle is; all working above ground level increases risks.
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Pj
Most deaths occur from falls under 3m.
The WAHL's were aimed more at the construction industry than any other trade as the greatest amount of deaths/injuries from falls at height occur in that trade. Pro rata, window cleaning has a much, much better track record although with some of the idiots I see cleaning windows with ladders, I do wonder.
Anyway, that was not the point I was making. The point was as per the heading, 'HSE BAN LADDERS'.
I totally agree with what you wrote though and with David's rant.
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http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm this is a US study but the second section deals with accidents , it would appear that you have a better chance of dying from a fall at ground level over your lifetime than you have of dying from a fall from a ladder or scaffold.......that does it im never getting off my ladder again ;D
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I'm going to take my ladder to bed with me and sleep on it. ::)
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Check it out www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
you will see that the federation are working with hse to help w/c
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Check it out www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
you will see that the federation are working with hse to help w/c
well done thats a fair and rational set of guidelines for safe ladder use
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Ok so you decide that ladders will be used.
Qustion: What device do you use in addition to make it safer?
Question: Do you use it on ALL ladder climbs?
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What safety devices do you use with your pole?
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Check it out www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
Misc 613 has been superceded by the WAHD, therefore is no longer relevant.
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What safety devices do you use with your pole?
Same ones as I use with my shoes and socks! ;)
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What safety devices do you use with your pole?
Same ones as I use with my shoes and socks!
No sensible answers then.
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The HSE made comments at the Windex 2006 Seminar on what they expect from window cleaners.
Read them here.
http://www.windowcleaningresources.co.uk/html/ladder_ban_comments.html
Hope this helps.
Mark
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hi guys,
Just got home...
Ladders versus WFP? Nah… it’s not about that, it is about Health & Safety.
So it’s funny when one comment on here said with reference to this that they “…don't want to waste our money.”
It might be of interest to know that since falls from a height accounted for around 22% of fatal injuries and around 14% of major injuries to workers in 2002/03 the potential benefit of preventing these injuries is significant.
Not sure where investing in safer alternatives is a waste of money?
The cost of a workplace accident is higher than is immediately obvious. The individual faces costs in terms of pain, grief and suffering, and loss of income. Employers face costs in terms of lost output, equipment damage and disruption. There are also resource costs to society in terms of medical treatment and social security administration (social security payments and compensation payments are excluded because they are transfers and not resource costs).
Not sure where investing in safer alternatives is a waste of money?
The total cost of injuries and fatalities as a result of falls from height has been estimated at £458 million per year.
Not sure where investing in safer alternatives is a waste of money?
The proposed regulations are aimed at increasing safety in all aspects of working at height. They require: “every employer, in selecting work equipment for use in work at height shall take account of the working conditions and to the risks to the safety of persons at the place where the work equipment is used”.
Not sure where investing in safer alternatives is a waste of money?
The HSE transitional period will soon be up and your work is fair game!
Come on ladder kids, wise up!
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ladder "kids". sounds a bit patronizing.
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your right it does, so i take that back.
it was said in reference to a bit of name calling about myself earlier!
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He's patronising full stop Fasty. ::)
Don't let amateurs like him push you into changing your method.
Only do it if and when you want to.
Make that choice yourself.
Meanwhile take no notice, they won't get banned! ::)
"Wise up?"
I don't think it's wise to lower your cleaning standard.
Look at the thread below...and the many others.
You carry on doing it your way, and leave the proper cleaning to the pros. ;)
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Dose your mum know your up this late Squeaky? ;D
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Squawky clean... you make my day... ;)
but you are right in one thing you say... er no actually there isnt ;D
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Squawky clean... you make my day... ;)
but you are right in one thing you say... er no actually there isnt ;D
Just keep telling yourself that.
I know it comforts you. ;D
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go to google...
put in search
Squeaky Clean.
go to images
which one of those two girls is Squeaky Clean? or are they waiting for him?
lucky fella!
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Gotta be the one on the right. :P
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blond & brunette
thats just greedy squeeky
:o
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The HSE made comments at the Windex 2006 Seminar on what they expect from window cleaners.
Read them here.
http://www.windowcleaningresources.co.uk/html/ladder_ban_comments.html
Hope this helps.
Mark
Mark H, In all the "to and fro" of insults, this post actually throws more light on the true situation and is one of the more sensible ones.- I notice that the HSE says we are in a "transitional period", so it's not if, but when ladders are going to be even more severely restricted for window cleaners.
If you only use ladders to work at height then please be aware, time is running out for the use of ladders within HSE regs.
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If you only use ladders to work at height then please be aware, time is running out for the use of ladders within HSE regs
Sorry to be picky but where did you get that bit of information from?
Cheers
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well i just went to google... entered in
Squeaky Clean.
clicked on images
and hey presto!
why do you ask?
or are you interested in the ladder ban thing?
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I'm just curious. It's a bold statement and I was wondering what the source of the information was.
If it is true then lots of ladder users will be stuffed, so to speak.
Also, 'time is running out'? How much time? Usually the HSE, when making statements about future plans for H & S, give a proposed timescale. Just as they did with WADR so as people/companies/etc have time to prepapre.
Cheers
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Ross, I got it from the link in Mark H's post which showed what the HSE were saying at Windex 2006. The phrase in the link was "transitional period" and the length of that period was to be advised.
Read it for yourself and see what you think. To me "transitional period" and "length of time to be advised" = time running out.
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Obviously you didn't look into it in depth like I did then.
If you click on another section it says you're fine on first floor up to 6 metres.
Sorry, case closed.
Keep trying. ;)
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remember the point of this new legislation (actually its not new anymore) is because the target for the whole economy is to reduce the rate of fatal and major injury to workers by 5% by 2004/05 and 10% by 2009/10
Ladders accounted for the greatest number of major injuries to employees due to high falls (39%) and again ladders was a common agent associated with a fatal injury to workers.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/pdf/rhsfall.pdf
no matter how you paint the picture… WAHR is here to protect and serve. As a by product my productivity/profit has increased too!
Remember
1. Both the window cleaner and the business that is having their windows cleaned must do a risk assessment for every job.
2. Both the window cleaner and the business must ensure use the safest method possible is used.
3. The hierarchy of safest methods begins with, not to work at height.
So if you accept these three points from the WAHR then the HSE really don’t have to have a Law to ban ladders for cleaning windows… because through this Law they practically already have!
Baton over to you squeeky
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Newbies please note:-
Look at the link from Mark H - it shows what the HSE are saying to window cleaners about what is going to happen when the transitional period is over.
(If you happen to see an Ostrich with it's head buried in the sand as you browse this forum then tip-toe quietly by and try not to scare it!)
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I think there is a bit of confusion here.
Firstly, what was quoted to do with Windex is not an HSE quote. It's best to quote the source rather than quote a source with a vested financial interest.
The HSE fully reckonise that ladder are, if used correctly, an acceptable means to clean some windows. The HSE also reckonise that the wheels of business must turn.
If you use the arguement, as you have above, that the safest option must always be used, then ladders are banned not only for window cleaning but for everything no matter what trade or job of work. That clearly is not the case.
The 'safest method possible' is for the job of work being undertaken. If that involves ladders then the regulations must be complied with. Ladders can be used for work of short duration and includes window cleaning to an extent.
Otherwise, you'd never see a single ladder at any building site or anywhere, ever. Or are they all breaking the WAHR's?
Can anyone show me a single statement on a HSE website that ladders are banned? Or will be banned at some undetermined time in the future?
The point I was making was not wfp v trad or whether working at height is safe or not, the point I was making was if a statement gets posted implying what the HSE will do, then is that information accurate? It's a fair question surely?
I was trying to be diplomatic and I'm not trying to paint any picture. I am fully aware of the point of new legislation. Also, of course ladders will the cause of the majority of falls from height, just as the greatest amount of deaths in the fishing industry will be caused by those who go out fishing.
That was not either the question I asked or the reason I asked it. I was trying to be polite and diplomatic about a statement being made that may not possibly be true while accepting that it may be.
It's best to deal with what is factual rather than try to second guess what will be and then treat that as factual also. It confuses people.
What's the 'pass the batton over' thing about?
Cheers
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Firstly, what was quoted to do with Windex is not an HSE quote. It's best to quote the source rather than quote a source with a vested financial interest.
Cheers
Ross, it is an HSE quote - it's what they said at the Windex 2006 seminars. Read it again.
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As for the Windex quote, it is a part of what the HSE said. Just a small bit. Isn't this a bit like how they quote things in the papers? They quote a bit of something which is edited to give the exact impression that is wanted for a particular reason? That wasn't all that the HSE said? Just a few sentances? What else did they say or how about a link to the entire speech?
I go back to my original point, where and when have the HSE said that ladders will be banned or implied it beyond any doubt and where did that bit of information come from?
Sorry but it's a simple question.
Cheers
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There is not going to be any transitional period , that statement is now quite old.
The HSE have been back tracking over the last 2 years and they wont be banning ladders for window cleaners.
Can anyone show me any links from the HSE website about a transitional period.
I would urge everyone to read Ian Greenwoods statement from newsnight
Quote " Ladders are not banned but should only be used where it is sensible and safe to do so , and where all alternative methods have been considered"
That was the last verbal public statement made by any HSE spokesperson.
Dave
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Exactly Dave.
People still haven't read the bit which says no problem on 1st floor under 6 meters.
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The statement was made March 16th at windex 2006.
The seminar program is still on the windex site:
http://www.windex.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=20&Itemid=28
The statement by Ian Greenwood on Newsnight was made September 2005.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm
If any further statements have been made since March 2006 I'd be interested to know.
Mark
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It will still take time to reach agreement, but meantime all window cleaners must face up to the alternatives to ladders that are emerging and consider how best to comply with the law.
Where there are clear problems with using water fed poles it may be that ladder use will be the only option for small domestic window cleaners but equally the industry’s traditional one man bands and their customers may have to further adapt their techniques or that new business structures and practices become the norm.
But if this leads to fewer avoidable deaths and
injuries in a thriving industry, is that really so bad a prospect?
Andy
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Just reading through that press release from Sept 2005 and the phrase used is:
"These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out. A risk assessment must show that the task is low risk and of short duration, or that there are site features that mean other equipment is not appropriate. If so, then ladders can be used"
Tie that in with what was said at Windex March 2006:
"Situations where ladders may be suitable:
On ground floor windows both internally and externally using ‘A’ frame ladders.
Internal of high windows in schools, shopping malls, atriums etc.
Up to and including 1st floor using ladders no more than 6 metres on domestic and small commercial properties.
Removal of heavily impaced soilage. Eg. Builders Cleans
To access windows above flat roofs.
Where the number of windows to be cleaned at height is very small relative to the total, making use of more expensive access or cleaning methods unreasonable
(eg. Less than 6 1st floor) on an isolated property.
On city centre red routes and in other areas where you can’t get the waterfed pole van near to the building to be cleaned and trailing hoses would cause a hazard.
On properties where the use of a trolley system is not suitable because of site conditions (i.e steps or other physical obstructions)
On isolated domestic and small commercial premises. (i.e in rural locations where you may have, say only one two houses on a street/housing estate.
On domestic and small commercial premises where ladders are required to access above a flat roof and there is a limited number of 1st floor windows which are not above a roof."
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Hi Andy
Nicely put.
Dead accurate and to the point. I think that is so much more a worth while way of putting things than 'ladders will be banned'.
I think most of those who post on here are genuine in that they mean well. It's just sometimes it comes across wrong. Well it does to me but maybe I'm a bit fussy.
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Here, here.
The way I see it is that ladders will never be completely banned.
The HSE are sensible enough to realize that people are going to continue using ladders for a long time.
If an accident happens though, when ladders were being used and no risk assessment has been done, that's when your in trouble.
If a risk assessment has been done and you can justify why ladders were used, then no problem.
If you use ladders and that's it, and your work is suited to doing it by safer methods, then why wouldn't you choose to use a safer method?
I guess it comes down to either the perceived expense of WFP or
A reluctance to change work habits.
Mark
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Yawn :( :( :(
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Your'e right bear - it's past my bedtime too ;D
Goodnight.
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Hmmm.
I don't know about a reluctance to change work habits though? I think it is more than that. We use both wfp and trad methods so I speak from both camps.
For some jobs wfp is a waste of time. If the law said we had to use wfp then those jobs would be abandoned. Conversely, for some jobs wfp is the dogs watsitt's and as for doing them trad, absolutely no way.
Maybe some are reluctant to change but you only have to read wfp posts on this forum to understand why and I'm not knocking wfp.
With regard the WAHR's, as I understand it a window cleaner must have an alternative means of cleaning windows, assess the risks, ands then decide what is the most appropriate means. That 'alternative means' can be simply an extendable pole which a mop and squeegie can be put onto.
Provided for each job he has gone through that process of deciding, and he has done some type of risk assessment, the the WAHR's have been complied with.
I didn't know the maximun height was 6m with a ladder. I always thought it was 9m but only if the ladder was secured above 6m.
Nice to read some sensible and accurate postings about the WAHR's.
Hi Bear
What is boring to you maybe of interest to others. Please be tolerant.
Yup. My bedtime nearly also but not untill cheese on toast with Lea and Perrins.
Yummie.
Cheers
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I can see Foxman having the pack chasing him after that!
and I am working away for a week so I look forward to viewing this all other threads when I get back
JohnL
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the way i see it is this. Im getting kitted out with wfp and will use it as and when i think it is a valuable tool else i will use ladders.
If the hse stop me and say why are you up a ladder i can say because it is the only way i can do a good job on this particular job but if you want me to use wfp i have it and will use it. No problem.