Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: macleod on October 13, 2006, 10:48:26 am
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question.
if you know that a well known company that has a number of Residential Homes has their windows cleaned at least on 1 property unsafely (ladders not footed, not secured, etc etc) then what would you do as a 'professional' window cleaner?
i telephoned this company to speak to H&S, was put through to their Head of Properties who told me (and i am not kidding) that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident and anyway that they were not liable!
i telephone the House Manger who said they this window cleaning company accept the risks and are covered by their insurance!
this is not ladders versus wfp. this is safe versus not safe. so please dont change the subject.
what would you do?
can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?
mac
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You could notify authorities, but why stress yourself out over it?
As long as the WC company had offered a risk assessment and method statement and proved insurance, which has then been accepted by the customer, what can be done?
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question.
if you know that a well known company that has a number of Residential Homes has their windows cleaned at least on 1 property unsafely (ladders not footed, not secured, etc etc) then what would you do as a 'professional' window cleaner?
i telephoned this company to speak to H&S, was put through to their Head of Properties who told me (and i am not kidding) that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident and anyway that they were not liable!
i telephone the House Manger who said they this window cleaning company accept the risks and are covered by their insurance!
this is not ladders versus wfp. this is safe versus not safe. so please dont change the subject.
what would you do?
can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?
mac
IF ITS A CASE OF SAFETY WHY DONT YOU INFORM THE WINDOW CLEANER IN QUESTION?
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Why stick your nose in?
What's it got to do with you?
Trying to pinch his work?
Just because his ladder isn't footed doesn't mean it's dangerous.
Typical WFP user attitude. ::)
Sounds like you've already been told this anyway.
If you do manage to cause trouble, don't be surprised if you get your car covered in paintstripper or something.....
You won't get any sympathy here. ;)
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question.
if you know that a well known company that has a number of Residential Homes has their windows cleaned at least on 1 property unsafely (ladders not footed, not secured, etc etc) then what would you do as a 'professional' window cleaner?
i telephoned this company to speak to H&S, was put through to their Head of Properties who told me (and i am not kidding) that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident and anyway that they were not liable!
i telephone the House Manger who said they this window cleaning company accept the risks and are covered by their insurance!
this is not ladders versus wfp. this is safe versus not safe. so please dont change the subject.
what would you do?
can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?
mac
IF ITS A CASE OF SAFETY WHY DONT YOU INFORM THE WINDOW CLEANER IN QUESTION?
Totally agree, what your doing is underhand. I wouldn't do that to any window cleaner, traditional or not, I am WFP.
In my eyes thats just as bad as deliberately undercutting if not worse!
Sorry, but there are thousands of buildings out there that need a window cleaner, its just a case of asking?
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And i bet you do everything right, unless it dangerous and you had the lads health in mind you should stay out its like undercutting someone, if everyone is happy apart from you who cares.
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Just because his ladder isn't footed doesn't mean it's dangerous.
If it isn't secured, which means tethered to eyebolts/structural beams, used with a stability device (rojak stopper etc) or as a last resort 'footed', then it is illegal.
That's no-one's opinion, its nothing to do with WFP versus ladders, thats the law. No need to take my word for it, look it up for yourself.
The next time you see a billboard, look below it and you'll see eyebolts. That's because its illegal to simply plonk a ladder against a wall and begin working from it, and the bill board companies know that, as do other trades. SKY for example have had to change their working practices when installing satellite dishes to comply with the WAHR.
-Philip
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NO :-X
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You should be proud you are conducting your business in a pfofessional manner and they are not you should just carry on with your own business and let them carry on with theirs.
You wont be the only one thats noticed them working in that manner, its good to see on this forum that theres so many professionals i bet we could all tell a story or 2 about people working unsafely around us, weve all taken risks and im a culprit myself i would only grass them up if they try to undercut you with work
Brett
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Philip, are you sure?
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Mike, you don't need to take my word for it.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2005/20050735.htm#sch6
That is a link to The Work at Height Regulations 2005, see what it says under sched 6, section 5 "requirements for ladders"
There is widespread ignorance about the requirements for ladders, but yes if you use them unsecured you are breaking the law.
But there are loads of good devices to secure ladders, the Rojak stopper is just one. There's ladder levellers, tethers, anti-slip devices. Securing a ladder has never been so easy, its just that most window cleaners don't know that you can, or that its now the law.
-Philip
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so, if you say a car drivng in an unsafe manner what would you do?
if the car crashed and the driver was seriously hurt, what would be your reaction?
serves him right? well id prefer him to drive safely and not injure himself or others in the first place...
this isnt about wfp versus ladders, as that is just nonsense so again please dont throw that in my face squeaky clean - i really respect you but this isnt about 'taking' this work away.
just cause i havent had a car accident ever doesnt mean i dont need car insurance...
just cause i havent had a car accident ever doesnt mean that i will never have an accident...
my feelings are if this residential home doesnt care about H&S would you want your dear old mum to be looked after by them?
this is about health and safety... and just as dangerous driving can be reported to the police to whom can we report dangerous window cleaning?
by the way i have spoken to the guy who ownes the cleaning company before and his attitute is he dont care, all his lads are 'self employed' its up to them.
mac
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I think that it's more important than that guy's, window cleaning is classed as the most dangerous job available in this country, even more so than being a soilder.
Those of us involved in the industry are constantly maoning about cowboys, clients etc, yet, when it comes to safety, and what to do about those who insist on breaking the rules, we get all high and mighty, I wonder if anyone ever thinks about the possibility of having to inform a victims family in the case of a fatality.
If this chap does have an accident, dont you think that it would be reported in the local press, thus informing client's of our's that window cleaners in general practice unsafe working methods, perhaps, not such a big deal for those who use wfp, but could be another nail in the coffin for the trad's out there.
Regards,
Rob
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by the way i really am shocked at you trevor knight... this company said that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident... they didnt care if he worked unsafely!!!
what the heck are you doing as a moderator if you are happy with people risking their health and others?
and who linked this thread to undercutting?? are you really a fool? 1 bloke working off a ladder in an unsafe manner will always be cheaper... if i quoted for the job id be more expensive...
i asked you guys who always change the subject not to do it this time... keep your pet hates to one side...
i really am concerned as to whom do we report unsafe working practices?
mac
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i use wfp and ladders so im not baised, but i think some people on here are big girls and should mind there own business ladders are dangerous but people on here make it sound like if you use a ladder your more than likely gonna die. if you are that worried speak to the window cleaner in question.
the law states
"5. A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by -
(a) securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;
(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or
(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"
the law does not give a list of recomended anti slip or stabilty devices, the window cleaner may have articulated feet fitted to the ladder or may have any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness. also how many people take note of section 7
"7. No interlocking or extension ladder shall be used unless its sections are prevented from moving relative to each other while in use."
many ladders do not have the means for doing this so even if you have a safety device you may still be breaking the law.
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W.A.H.R 2005 IS ABSOULTE RUBBISH NOT EVEN WORTH THE PAPER ITS PRINTED ON.
All trad guys I wouldnt worry about this so call working at height diretive regulations whatever you want to call it, it means nothing in the real world. If you work on site then it may come into affect. Its aload of crap
(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or
(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"
This means nothing absoultly nothing, you could use a screwed up scrim under your ladder feet and it counts. Theres no way it would stand up in any court of law if you at least done something to stop the slipping which could be absoulty anything like a crisp under eact foot and that is classed as the arranged effective device. Who are they to say whats effective when there is no mention of the so called effective devices.
But be advised, if you have an accident or anyone who works for you does, YOU WILL KNOW ABOUT IT THEN!
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( ProPole
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i use wfp and ladders so im not baised, but i think some people on here are big girls and should mind there own business ladders are dangerous but people on here make it sound like if you use a ladder your more than likely gonna die. if you are that worried speak to the window cleaner in question.
the law states
"5. A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by -
(a) securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;
(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or
(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"
the law does not give a list of recomended anti slip or stabilty devices, the window cleaner may have articulated feet fitted to the ladder or may have any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness. also how many people take note of section 7
"7. No interlocking or extension ladder shall be used unless its sections are prevented from moving relative to each other while in use."
many ladders do not have the means for doing this so even if you have a safety device you may still be breaking the law.
That section 7 looks interesting. So ladders are made so that there are two strong brackets that hook over the rungs. That only stops movement in one direction. It's hard to see how the ladder could move in the other direction so I wonder what the point of that bit is. Anyone know?
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W.A.H.R 2005 IS ABSOULTE RUBBISH NOT EVEN WORTH THE PAPER ITS PRINTED ON.
All trad guys I wouldnt worry about this so call working at height diretive regulations whatever you want to call it, it means nothing in the real world. If you work on site then it may come into affect. Its aload of crap
(b) an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or
(c) any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness"
This means nothing absoultly nothing, I could use a screwed up scrim under my ladder feet and it counts it wouldnt stand up in no court of law if you atleast done something to stop the slipping which could be absoulty anything I could put a crisp under eact foot and say that was my arranged effective device. Who are they to say whats effective when there is no mention of the so called effective devices.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
The odd thing is that I was once working on a very slippery stone patio. The Rojak wouldn't hold the ladder but a heavy duty oven cloth worked beautifully. N.B. This was thoroughly tested with someone at the base of the ladder doing some "footing" with their feet a few inches away from the stiles as a just in case measure. I've also heard of people using bath towels. It doesn't look very professional but it was the best way for that job IMO. WFP wasn't an option as they were very old leaky leaded windows.
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ok you win... i didnt want this to go down the route of ladders versus wfp....
but thats why i rarely post on this site any more...
i care about window cleaning and it eanrs me a good wage.
i win work every week from window cleaners who say that the Law is [to quote shinner] rubbish...
just casue my neighbour is a nice bloke doesnt mean he can drive his car in a reckless manner, and its the same with window cleaning, just cause the window cleaner is a nice bloke or been cleaning the windows for 20 years doesnt mean he should be reckless and allowed to continue working... that is rubbish!
by the way notice that i didnt mention the WAHR rather i said this is about Safety.
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the only use I could ever find for the rung locks was for lifting the extended ladder from above.
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I allways work in compliance with W.A.H.R. But whos going to stop joe bloggs two doors down replacing the gutters or the odd job man fixing an outside light across the road, who would stop them?????? No one would!!
Its only there so they can point fingers and blame someone when it goes wrong. Obviously site work, commercial work and the construction industry has and will feel it more over the comming years but there is no way they could stop everyone in this country.
If its ilegal shall I call 999 tommorow when I see someone on a ladder? what a joke.
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Well said.
It's so blown out of proportion.
Hey look, I agreed with PooPole. ;D
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ok you win... i didnt want this to go down the route of ladders versus wfp....
but thats why i rarely post on this site any more...
i care about window cleaning and it eanrs me a good wage.
i win work every week from window cleaners who say that the Law is [to quote shinner] rubbish...
just casue my neighbour is a nice bloke doesnt mean he can drive his car in a reckless manner, and its the same with window cleaning, just cause the window cleaner is a nice bloke or been cleaning the windows for 20 years doesnt mean he should be reckless and allowed to continue working... that is rubbish!
by the way notice that i didnt mention the WAHR rather i said this is about Safety.
Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote. I merely stated that the best anti-slip device, of the items I had with me, for that particular surface, was a heavy duty oven cloth. For that particular surface, in the absence of eyebolts or a means of tieing the base of the ladder, I used something of "equivalent effectiveness" - and it was a very good method too. I even tested a Rojak and found it to be less effective. Eyebolts high up on the wall would have been useless anyway as the ladder would have slipped before I got up there if I had no other means of footing it. I had a couple of near misses early on in my career. I bet I'm more safety concious than most window cleaners.
Although I feel that the law is excessive, I would not call it rubbish. Like a lot of laws (speed limits being a typical scenario) the safety regs have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator - i.e. the lawmakers start with the assumption that we are all totally ignorant about safety on the basis that this is true of maybe 1% of window cleaners. I would have preferred compulsory ladder training rather than an insistence that ladders only be used as a very last resort. Rather than saying that the law is rubbish, I merely say that it's too inflexible.
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...This means nothing absoultly nothing, you could use a screwed up scrim under my ladder feet and it counts it...
ProPole
I agree with ProPoles statement. The rules are 'wishy-washy' and without enforcement they're a waste of time.
But, WAHD aside, how many window cleaners do you know that don't even have feet on their ladders? Having serviceable feet on your ladders surely should be the most basic of safety devices.
You see these window cleaners driving about with ladders secured to their vehicles with what looks like old bits of string, and bent aluminium where the feet should be.
I've seen two window cleaners like this, this week.
It's not like the ladder feet are worn; they're none existant; just bent alluminium where they should be.
Surely they can afford a serviceable set of ladders; one of their basic tools?
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ok you win... i didnt want this to go down the route of ladders versus wfp....
but thats why i rarely post on this site any more...
i care about window cleaning and it eanrs me a good wage.
i win work every week from window cleaners who say that the Law is [to quote shinner] rubbish...
just casue my neighbour is a nice bloke doesnt mean he can drive his car in a reckless manner, and its the same with window cleaning, just cause the window cleaner is a nice bloke or been cleaning the windows for 20 years doesnt mean he should be reckless and allowed to continue working... that is rubbish!
by the way notice that i didnt mention the WAHR rather i said this is about Safety.
I've only just realised where you got confused. It was Propole who said WAHR is rubbish - not me. I did quote his text in my post when replying to him so it looks like you inadvertently attributed Propole's words to me. Easy mistake to make I suppose.
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Doesnt matter shiner,
Dont know what hes on about there, he says one thing and means another. He mentioned about ladders not being footed and if thats not W.A.H.R I dont know what is, hes has contradicted himself.
ProPole
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question.
can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?
You could but why bother. All you're going to do is wind people up.
Even better, take a deep breathe, relax and concentrate on your own life.
Stress ain't good for the soul.
Have a long life
mark
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Alot of good arguments from both sides of the fence, what would concern me more is, if or when this guy falls off his ladder it just adds more weight for the laws to be tightened up even further and that affects everyone,
Also next time you start complaining about insurance premiums you can thank the guys like this who help contribute to this trade being classed as the most dangerous in the uk.
As for undercutting/working for the home - not a chance with a attitude like that, i can see them being great payers....not
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question.
if you know that a well known company that has a number of Residential Homes has their windows cleaned at least on 1 property unsafely (ladders not footed, not secured, etc etc) then what would you do as a 'professional' window cleaner?
i telephoned this company to speak to H&S, was put through to their Head of Properties who told me (and i am not kidding) that they will continue using this window cleaner until there is an accident and anyway that they were not liable!
i telephone the House Manger who said they this window cleaning company accept the risks and are covered by their insurance!
this is not ladders versus wfp. this is safe versus not safe. so please dont change the subject.
what would you do?
can i notify the local council? HSE? jeremy paxman?
mac
It depends....what is your motive? Generally I would say let 'em get on with it and it's not your problem, but.....
What if you have genuine concerns that an employee (youngster, foreigner who does not know what his "rights" are, etc) of a "well known" firm is "forced" by economic circumstances and pressure from his employer to work in that way?
or..
What if you have quoted against this company and you genuinely beleive they are mis-representing you by saying in effect "What that guy told you about HSE is rubbish" - and thus, in your opinion putting you at a disadvantage by cutting safety corners?
It's your conscience, do as you think fit. If you decide to contact anyone perhaps try the HSE and talk about a hypothetical situation, then post here, it will be interesting!
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I'd grass him up then nick his round and try it on with his missus while he's inside :P
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Sarah has uploaded a 'Commercial Mailshot' that informs commercial companies of the risks of contracting a WC who uses ladders as their first choice of access in the Documents to Upload section.
It basically begins with a statement that goes along the lines of 'A big company was recently fined thousands of pounds after a window cleaner fell from his ladders while cleaning their premises and is brain damaged for the rest of his life'
It then goes on to explain about 'your' company and asks if they would like a quote from 'you'.
It's very good.
Why not use this letter?
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I find it hard to believe that someone would go to the extreme of selling out another window cleaner to the authorities, i have quite a bit of competition over here some working within the rules and some without but i would never consider doing that if for no other reason self preservation,If it ever got out (and you know how good the government are at keeping things on the qt)i would expect at the very least to get my butt kicked and worse every time i did something even the smallest little thing outside of the rules i would be looking over my shoulder to see whos watching, and any body who says that they do everything within the rules probably hasnt read the fine print
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Hi mac
I ll put my neck on the the block
I agree with you up to a point I try hard to conform to safty regs I probably break some rule every day though
the regs were brought in for this very reason that some people just dont care about the safety of those who work for them in any way, they would probably be the first to shout if one of thier own where to be treated in the same way, however you have notified the the people concerned you should warn the actual wc concerned but if they persist unlesss you think that there is a real risk to inicent people I would not go as fsr as reporting them
I am suprised that a lot of people feel its none of thier business you are really not doing any servce to them you would not let any drive a car you Knew had no brakes its not a kindness to let people play fast and loose with others lives or even thier own
it is true however that you are unlikely to get thanks for it a prophet is not welcomed in his own town
It is not worth the stress mac, try to help but if they dont want it let them be at least your children wont lose thier father for the sake of a £2.00 window do to others ect mac at least you care
best regards grant
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trev,
do you work in whitchurch?
Yes, why do you ask?
i ve always wondered who the other wfper is in whitchurch,ive a few houses there .
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No, I'm not a grass.
But I have been called a Pampas before, so I guess I am! :-[
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Under Regulation 3 of the Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999 it is every employers and self employed persons responsibility to ensure a suitable and sufficient risk assesment has been carried out. This duty is also applicable within the WAHR. It is irresponsible of the company concerned to say they are not bothered as it is also their duty to ensure that persons working at their premises are working safely.
It is not a matter of being a grass or undercutting others - IT IS A MATTER OF PROTECTING LIVES.
Check out the HSE website for the stats on injuries from falls from height
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Your a disgrace Macleod >:( mind your own business and get a life!!!!!!!! >:(
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what rock have u been hiding under girlhog?
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I have been busy Arspole, not that its got anything to do with you!!!! But now I am back so watch out ;D
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Welcome back Mr.G-Hog!
You've been needed around here.....
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I take this Mr Macleod who wants to grass a fellow WCer is the same one who is moving heaven and the regs in another thread to get us to all agree that ladders are banned !
hmm
JohnL
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Funny gayhog very funny ::)
;D ;D ;D uze two are like a pair of pole scared pansy's!!!!
Up the anti-wfp brigade, long live the flat hats and shammy's a fellas :D
IM WATCHING OUT!!!!!!!! (cant see nothing) ;D ;D ;D ;D
Pro
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I'm not anti wfp, I just think that trad is better ;) I have never heard of a flat hat ;D I think you mean a flat cap Mr Arspole ;)
Its good to be back Squeaky :) I can see that you need a hand keeping these wfp cheerleaders in order! ;D
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Out of curiousity GayBog, Ettore or Unger?
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Unger ArsPole ;) and seeing as your such a pole expert, whats your favourite pole?
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Unger ArsPole ;) and seeing as your such a pole expert, whats your favourite pole?
Lech Walesa!
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trev,
do you work in whitchurch?
Yes, why do you ask?
i ve always wondered who the other wfper is in whitchurch,ive a few houses there .
well now you know :D We clean about 60 houses in Whitchurch
is this the whitchurch with the hotel terrick hall and the hill valley golf course.
gary
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Lech Walesa!
;D Very clever Malc!
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Lech Walesa!
;D Very clever Malc!
In English please!!!!!
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so here it is...
the window cleaner that was up the ladders was me 12 months ago.
now i am using a wfp.
i explained the changeover was due to the change in legislation.
they said that thought all these H&S laws from Europe was ridicules.
and they were perfectly happy with my work.
Anyway the point of this story is this...
some companies know the WAHR law, but because they think its stupid, they refuse to comply.
however the law is the law.
many of you thought i was 'stealing' work, but i think those of you who thought this also care little about the WAHR law which is shameful...
as far as i am concerned if anyone - including myself - is not operating within the law, then their work is fair game.
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as far as i am concerned if anyone - including myself - is not operating within the law, then their work is fair game.
You don't need an excuse to go after work. A year or so ago I helped Tommo quote for a large posh hotel and golfcourse. The contract had been held for many years by a Bristol window cleaning company.
We were only one quote of at least five or six other window cleaning companies. No-one said, 'No, I'm not going to quote for that, since it belongs to another window cleaning company'.
I'd say send a mailshot or give the place you mentioned a phone call; you don't need to make excuses about whether they're working in accordance with the regulations or not; however you could use that as an 'edge' against your competitors.
Business is business.
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I'd grass him up then nick his round and try it on with his missus while he's inside :P
nice ;D
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i see dodgy window cleaners all the time,and although it annoys me that they bring the image of window cleaning in the gutter,i would never grass anyone up.Thats not right in my opinion.