Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: poleman on September 30, 2006, 11:09:48 pm

Title: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on September 30, 2006, 11:09:48 pm
I have a high pressured 40 / 40 RO which can take 150 psi

However my problem is that most WFP pumps are 100psi and 12v

And all pumps above 100psi is 240v which is mains electric, how can I over come this problem as we can only fill up from standpipe in the road and wont to reduce the time sat in the van

We need 120 / 140 psi and it needs to be power in the van, any help is appreciated

Andy
PS Just looking here, seems this was built for someone that wont to fill up fast like me, maybe it might be a system for the future, what with RO taking so long to purifier

http://www.purewindowwater.co.uk/Specials.htm
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: gsw on October 01, 2006, 08:35:13 am
not sure if this will help you, but this bloke seems to have no trouble filling up fast! if he is telling the truth!

I would be interested to know if a) this system works aswell as he states.
b) does anyone else use similar?

greg
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: Roy Harding on October 01, 2006, 09:27:45 am
Andy

You could by a inverter that plugs in to lighter socket that takes 12volt up to 240volt.

Roy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 01, 2006, 09:58:34 am
Andy,

A 12v pump will not do the job. As well as pressure you also need flow. The only pumps that will give you the required pressure & flow are 240v mains. The only possibly way you could get the high flow & pressure required would be by using a petrol driven pump (I haven’t come across a decent one yet) or by having a petrol driven generator to get you the 240v supply needed. Just take a look at our web page http://www.freshwatersystems.co.uk/series_lc.htm this shows our ARO systems which have 200 psi pumps, but you also need all the other bits of kit to ensure it works correctly & safely, such as pressure gauges, low & high pressure switches, flow gauges etc.

Don’t waste your time and effort trying to do it with 12v pumps or invertors, it won't work.

If you need any prices or info on pumps for you 4040 post on here or e-mail us.


steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk

Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 01, 2006, 12:18:35 pm
Freshwater, the 4040 ROs can only take up to 150psi I believe! Flow I have got lots of as its from the mains in the road, as for the pump I would need, if you def have something that would suit what I am trying to set up then I would def be interested, are you around on Monday if so the maybe could we have a chat on the phone!

Andy
Tel: 01202 779831
contract@smart-cleaning.co.uk     
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 01, 2006, 12:30:18 pm
Just to add, I wont to fill a 1000lts in one or two hours!

Andy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: Bonzer on October 01, 2006, 12:41:42 pm
Steve,

Just looking at your ARO500 system - Would you still need to put the output through a polisher DI? What sort of TDS could you expect on the output from this?

How long does RO membrane last if you're doing 1000L per day?
What sort of pure/waste ratio is there?
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 01, 2006, 07:34:17 pm
Pole man,

4040 low pressure membranes have a max pres rate of 400psi. It all depernds on what your membrane housing and its pipework can take. We are down south on Monady on & Tuesday fitting a 750 litres duples softener in a nursing home, so if you want to talk please call on Wednesday afternoon.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk



Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 01, 2006, 07:38:20 pm
Bonzer,

On cold water you will get 800 to 1000 litres per day. You need to soften on the way in & you will need de-min on the way out. The memnbrane will last 2-3 years. Waste can be adjusted, it you reduce the waste the TDS goes up, if you increase the waste the TDS goes down. On average you will get about 90% reduction of TDS.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 01, 2006, 08:25:29 pm
Steve

Been looking at this link http://www.purewindowwater.co.uk/Specials.htm and can only see a 100psi pump, now its stated on there "large amount of water quickly - hence four 40" membranes!" would I still need to have a pump above 100psi or would the more ROs solve my problem of wonting to fill up with 2 hours of a standpipe in the road. (your help is much appreciated)

Andy   
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 01, 2006, 10:35:59 pm
Poleman,

If you run a 4040 at a low pressure, say 40 psi then you will get less than half the normal production, then you have to take into account the temperature which will also cut your production in half, then the production quality which is dependant on you input TDS. A low pressure 4040 will produce 8000 litres per day at 115 psi, so if you are running at low pressure eg 40 psi your production should be about 2800 per day, divide by 2 for temperature loss so that’s 1400 per day which equals 58 litres per hour. If you want to fill say 500 litres in 2 hours you would need 5 membranes. BUT then you get all the pressure losses in your pre-filters, softening vessels & pipe-work so you need to add at least 20% capacity, so I would go for 7 or 8 membranes. You will also need a softener that can run at 300 litres per hour.

It’s possible, if you want a price for a bank of 8 membranes & a softener let us know.


steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: sair on October 02, 2006, 12:20:20 pm
our single r/o van,mounts produce 250- 300 litres an hour granted there boostered

dont see why you need that many membraines
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 02, 2006, 03:47:18 pm
Tony got your e-mail  :o yes you was right Williamson Pumps Limited, have a 150psi 12v pump so can come of my battery in the van, which has saved buying   
inverter, generator or more ROs which could of cost hundreds of pounds

Andy
PS Tony whats your phone number! 
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: sair on October 02, 2006, 04:58:23 pm
hi Andy

07944 227635

Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 02, 2006, 05:39:01 pm
Tony, are give you a ring tomorrow, I am sure you have finished for the day  ;)

Andy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: abacus on October 02, 2006, 08:55:58 pm
Hi pole man

I dont sell pumps but have seen flojet pump  with small tank set up  it is 2800 series booster system in 12v or 240 v operating at 2.8 bar and max 17LPM OR 1020 LPh

Sorry dont know how to upload picture cost around £255.00 williamsons pumps should be able to supply
if this helps

regards grant
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 03, 2006, 07:55:10 pm
abacus,

2.8 bar isn't nearly enough, is only about 40 psi, and have you checked the curve for the pump, its probably does 17 lpm at 0 psi but what does it do at 40 psi? I’ve just been to Flojets site and here is a link to the data sheet http://www.jabsco.com//prodInfo/overview/81000_290D_10_05.pdf
as I suspected if you look at the curve you will see that at 2.8 bar the pump flow is 0 and with the tank its about 10 lpm. DONT JUST READ THE HEADLINE FIGURES FOR PUMPS, YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT FLOW AT WHAT PRESSURE.

There is no magic solution to high flow and high pressure, you need a good specialist pump, and they cost a few quid.


steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 03, 2006, 07:59:21 pm
sair,

whats your initial water pressure before the booster pump, and whats the pressure after the booster pump?

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 04, 2006, 06:26:31 pm
sair,

waiting for your reply.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 05, 2006, 09:11:19 am
sair,

still waiting for your reply
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 10, 2006, 11:35:25 pm
Well set up the ROs and pump! but it didnt work  :'( was hoping with the higher PSI pump (150) and mains water, it would have a high fill rate, only getting 4lts a min  :-\ which will take 4 hours for a 1000tls any advice sair or freshwater?

Andy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 11, 2006, 08:49:02 am
TOLD YOU SO

THE VOICE OF EXPERIENCE

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: sair on October 11, 2006, 02:22:05 pm
 240 liters an hour of one membraine thats good,  thats more than enough to supply two men at 2 litres a min and you can fill and work

i never got your call andy



Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 11, 2006, 10:25:05 pm
TOLD YOU SO

THE VOICE OF EXPERIENCE

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk

hehehe  ;D ::)

Andy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 11, 2006, 10:29:23 pm
Go back to what I said earlier in this thread about 12v pumps, flow & pressure. There aren't any pumps powerful enough at 12v. Your best option as I said previously is more membranes

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 11, 2006, 10:32:23 pm
240 liters an hour of one membraine thats good,  thats more than enough to supply two men at 2 litres a min and you can fill and work

i never got your call andy


Tony will ring tomorow

Andy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 11, 2006, 10:43:12 pm
Well the company that built this http://www.purewindowwater.co.uk/Specials.htm said you can only do with more ROs & quoted me 2k for the system

be honest with you every industry expert I have spoken to has given a different view  :-\ 

Andy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 12, 2006, 09:22:47 am
Andy,

Not every expert it would seem that I have the same opinion as your suppliers. Just stop and think about it. If you have a membrane that produces x litres of water then 2 membraes will produce twice the quantity. Its pre school maths. And I would hazard a guess that based on the same theory 4 membranes might produce four times as much water but I only did A leve maths so this is a bit advanced for me.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: welmac on October 12, 2006, 09:32:53 am
Andy,

 but I only did A leve maths so this is a bit advanced for me.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk

should of done more spelling lessons  ;D
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 12, 2006, 03:19:49 pm
Welllllllllllllllllllllllllmacccccccccccccc

We did A leve maths, it was a shorther course than A level.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 12, 2006, 06:53:53 pm
I never disagreed with you, however the ROs came from a static system that fill in 1 hour and 40mins, which is what I am trying to do same psi pump

Andy   
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 12, 2006, 08:13:41 pm
How about filling the tank of tap water and when we need pure water we can run it thought the ROs! To clean?

Andy   
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 12, 2006, 08:25:46 pm
What was the pressure of the water where the static systems was? Compare this with the water you can get when you’re out and about, if they are different by a large degree then yes you need a pump, BUT you can't get a big powerful 12 volt pump they don't exist. If you are prepared to buy a generator you could use a 240v pump we do a high pressure high flow pump it does 7 lpm at 100psi with a 1hp motor, not to be confused with the pressure boosting sets being sold by other suppliers this is 7 lpm at 100ps not 7llpm or 100psi.

Or as I have said before add more membranes, its cheaper and easier than pumps.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 12, 2006, 08:28:42 pm
If you fill your tanks with tap water you will still need pressure to get it through your memnbranes, plus out a 1000 litres of tap water how much pure will get?

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 14, 2006, 01:30:47 pm
750lts with a 25% waste, think I am going to try this, is there any downsides?

Andy
If you fill your tanks with tap water you will still need pressure to get it through your memnbranes, plus out a 1000 litres of tap water how much pure will get?

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 14, 2006, 07:34:14 pm
Yes,

The down side is you don't have a pump capable of doing the job.

Anyway give it a go with what you've got and report back, I for one would like to know the result. Let us know the TDS in, the TDS out and the flow rate of the pure.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk

Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: poleman on October 14, 2006, 07:52:10 pm
OK are let you know, the only downside i can think of is waste water being dump on the road or pavement in the winter

Andy
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: thewindowcleaner1 on October 16, 2006, 12:09:30 am
http://www.ro-man.com/shop/product_info.php/products_id/235

I'm having one of these should sort my problems out...
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: freshwater on October 16, 2006, 02:25:01 pm
The,

Let us know how well it works, also your input & output TDS and your water pressure.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Title: Re: 40 / 40 RO and high pressured pumps
Post by: JM123 on October 16, 2006, 05:45:34 pm
Hi guys, I've gotta back up the steve man, as long as you have sufficent pressure (above 60psi or so) then the only 'real' way to boost production is to add membranes or use a higher capacity membrane. 

I just had a look at the purewindowwater pictures and let me tell you something - that is a death trap.  You cannot properly secure an IBC tank in a van - Intermediate Bulk Carrier, its for transporting fluids on the back of a lorry, where it poses no threat to the driver etc etc, not in the back of a van where it can tear away from its pallet and ....well, I don't need to say any more.