Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: ronaldo on September 14, 2006, 01:43:51 pm
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O dear i recon you`ve started another topic for Squeeky Rog ::),Gaz
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Probably, but frankly who cares if you do as good a job & earn more money from it.
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As a newbie, with a small amount of trad exsperience due to my uncle haveing a company in London for 20 pluss years and me doing occasional work for him in my younger days , and myself just starting out in the buisness useing mainly wfp, I feel I can perform window cleaning to a higher standard useing wfp and at a faster speed, but not sure if that makes trad more skilfull.
What I would say is there are elements to trad that do require more skill, EG:useing a squegee at high level with extension pole and cleaning leaded glass, both of which I have encountered recently and struggled with, but did achieve reasnable results by takeing my time.
Drew
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Trad is more skillful by far! ;D Anyone can use a stick with a brush on the end!! ;D
And from my experiance is usually quicker on nearly all domestic properties! ;D ;)
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And from my experiance is usually quicker on nearly all domestic properties! ;D ;)
Just stick to the subject please, & not try & turn this into yet another debate with you & Squeaky on one side & everyone else on the other!!!
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I wouldn't say trad is quicker alot depends on the property layout ect. on most jobs I do its far easier to pull my hose around the property than carry a ladder and climb up and down it, only an opinion mind.
Oh dear is this going to turn into another one of the posts again, should I be getting involved?
Something is telling me NO.
Drew.
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Im new to window cleaning and have never cleaned a window traditionally only WFP, but I would say yes there is more skill in traditional cleaning than washing windows with a brush.
I suppose there would have to be considering your cleaning windows with dirty water!
But im with Paul on this one, who cares we all clean windows.
WFP is not a crusade for me, just a method of making money!
Regards
Alistair
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Alistair, have you sorted out your pump probs yet?
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Paul, I will answer the question how I want :o Sorry if you don't like the answer ;D but sometimes the truth hurts! ;)
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In a word Paul.................NO
Ive ordered a Varistream and in theory it should arrive tomorrow if it does I might be able to salvage something from this week.
But suppliers dont reply to emails so god knows when it'll turn up
I look forward to when I can do a weeks clean problem free.
Hows things with you is Lesa helping you yet?
Alistair
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I am with you Alistair, I came into this industry due to redundency after 18 years in the same job and window cleaning is the easiest buisness to start up in, as i said in my previous post, elements of trad are harder to master than wfp, but haveing said that any one can reach a reasonable standard in either discipline in a relatively short time span, I went for wfp for the safety aspect.
I think the real skill is canvassing, thats the bit I find hardest anyway.
Drew.
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Drew,
Similiar situation with me really, I took redundancy after being a store manager with Kwiksave for a good few years.
I was looking for a business I could set up easily for little money that would give me the flexibility to spend time with my family.
To be blunt WCing traditional or WFP is monkey work the skill is in creating a successful business out of it.
Alistair
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I think the key is to stick at it and be proffesional in your approach, look smart be polite ect.
I am haveing problems getting enough customers at the moment so may take a part time job to substitute my income for a while, but i am determined to build a profitable buisness over the next couple of years just like some of the guys on here have.
What surprised me was just how many window cleaners there are out there , well in my area anyway hopeing some are just summer, dole workers and when they go i can jump in there shoes.
Drew.
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Drew,
Yeah when I started out I was convinced there was a shortage of WC's in my area, but its not until you get out there that you realise how many there are so you've just got to do it a little differently ie Uniformed, Clean Frames and Sills etc.
Saying that there are not many WC's who go out looking for extra work they just wait for it to fall into their laps, I started on my 2nd cleans on MOnday and have managed to build a round of 70 customers from scratch with a lot of leaflet drops and doorknocking in the evenings.
But yeah im like you and hope a lot of these WCers are summer only and will disappear come October and I get their customers coming to me saying 'my window cleaner has just vanished'. Im sure that will cause a few arguments over whose customer they are come spring, but springs a long way off ;D
Alistair
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I am having problems getting enough customers at the moment so may take a part time job to substitute my income for a while.
Drew,
I dont know your situation but do yourself a favour and make doorknocking your part time job.
Regards
Alistair
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yes it is
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I toatally disagree with all of you, wfp is much more skillfull than trad theres so much to learn, all small things mind stuff like controlling hoses, moving extended poles, setting up and packin away in lighning speed are just a few, not to mention different types of windows.
I am about to take on a new lad, and im not looking foward to training him up. I expect it will take about 6months for him to learn everything and work at my standard and pace.
Trad is much less skillfull you can teach someone how to trad withing a day, and be semi pro withing a month max.
ProPole
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Groundhog,
I'm not going to waste my time getting into a pointless debate about how much quicker WFP is, with you.
I have three types of work, some that is loads & loads quicker, some that is loads quicker & some that is just quicker with a pole.
Even on my little bit of work that is least suitable for WFP I can earn £15 - £20 a day extra with no risk. Thats £100 extra a week.
Alistair,
Sorry to hear about your probs, hopefully they are just teathing problems & you will be up & away soon, couldn't do much today cos of the weather anyway.
You seem to be very unlucky with your pump going so soon. But these things happen, I went through 2 chargers that stopped working all of a sudden just days after buying them off Ebay so it does happen.
Lesa has now been out with me twice just to get used to it. She has just got a job at a school in Gorse Covert 5 mornings a week, so she's going to come out a couple of afternoons to top up her wages.
Wise words about canvassing. Knocked on a few doors on a little close that has just been built on Manchester Road this morning & picked up £32 of work straight away.
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guys I refer to the topic is trad more experienced than wfp, well it used to be
in the old days
transferring a 30ft ladder around a building with limpet bars and safety feet took great care and skill to move the ladder around the building in a safe manner keeping that ladder well balanced took skill
moving quickly on commercial property doing the double sweegee and applicator action of terry burrows took skill
using poles with sweegee at 25 feet and getting reasonnable results took skill
since wfp these skills have disappeared and new skills have came in like understanding
the surface you are working with, the theory behind wfp,
so basically we are talking about 2 different industries
it should have read old v new what category are you a master in
jinky
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I am WFP as everyone knows, but I think Trad is the more skillful of the two methods.
There are several elements to working trad; applicator, squeegee, scrim/microfibre, differing techniques for inside work, or for different types of window and glass and so on.
You need a good understanding of the tech side of WFP, but the job itself, though it doea require skill, is by and large one single technique.
If trad was just say....washing glass with an aplicator it would be different.
I'm not including ladders or ladder use, that isn't window cleaning.
Equally I'm not including dragging the hose around or manouvering the WFP pole about.
All I mean is the cleaning of the windows either trad or WFP, and trad is that little more complex.
Within a couple of months you can be skilled at either method of course, and as time passes and you hone that skill further and further you get faster and more experienced.
Window cleaning is a semi skilled job but it does take a fair bit of knowledge to understand all the nuances of window cleaning.
Ian
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Good reply Ian :)
JohnL
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Traditional window cleaning takes more skill by far then wfp.
It takes a lot longer to master the art of w/c trad then it does wfp.
Its not just a case of mastering the art of w/c, the weather has a far greater impact on trad cleaning then it does with wfp. You have to for example clean a window diffrently in the baking hot sun then when the tempreture is near frezzing. In the summer the glass is easier to clean because of the heat and how quickly the water Evaporates off the glass. When its very cold you have a Tendency to leave more lines. The more skifull w/c will have very little Detailing to do.
Then their is the wind,it makes a massive diffrence to trad cleaning again, You have to work with the wind not against it. All these Variables have more effect on a trad w/c.
Though Ian never touched on it, Ladder work is part and parcel of the Trad set up, That takes real skill, being able to place a ladder at the correct hight and angle first time, The climbing and decending of a ladder, carrying a ladder on your shoulder or moving fully extended ladders from window to window are real skills.
Its also haveing the confidence and ability to clean a window at speed up a ladder, that requires balance and coordination.
Dont get me wrong you need some skills with wfp, but not as many as a trad w/c. I also know which is the harder to master.
I do think its a shame that many may come into w/cleaning through the wfp route who will never master the art of traditional w/c.
Nel.
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Paul you must be very slow at trad then ;D Propole my seven year old son can clean downstairs windows with a mini pole, but he struggles with a squeegee ;D
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Paul you must be very slow at trad then ;D Propole my seven year old son can clean downstairs windows with a mini pole, but he struggles with a squeegee ;D
Groundhog you cant even clean a window with a mini pole without getting spots. ;D
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Propole when did you last see a window that I have cleaned? ??? You haven't, so don't critisise my work, at least I rinse them properly ;D >:( I found wfp easy from day one, I just don't like it, its trad for me ;D
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Traditional window cleaning takes more skill by far then wfp.
It takes a lot longer to master the art of w/c trad then it does wfp.
Well there goes the one person I felt sure would say wfp.... :o ;D
Looks like your own your own Propole......
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Firstly let me clarify all this talk about ladders and other skills, lets not wonder of this, put a standard window infront of a total novice with no experince at all. Trad he will allways to a better job. He will know straight away what needs to be done, which is simple dolly the window blade it off and detail. His technique maybe rubbish but I garuantee it would look better than the wfp window he done because of the knowledge one must know about wfp cleaning to make good a job, sash windows, vents, georgian, quater lights. Many things can effect the finish.
Groundhog you have said before that you go around checking your work after wfp, then correct with trad, is this because you cant use wfp properly and efficiently like you also say its to much hassle on domestic. From what i work out wfp is a skill you have not mastered yet, why dont you start asking questions on here.
USING IT EFFICIENTLY IS KEY
Also use the correct methods mate if you want optimum results, which is RINSING BRUSH ON!!
ProPole
Squeaky you make me laugh, your a funny man. :D
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Did I suprise you their Squeaks?
Its just my honest and humble opinion which method I think is harder to master.
Even my freinds who have switched to wfp all share the same view that trad cleaning takes more skill. And we are talking about 150yrs experince in w/c between us. A lot of people underestimate how much skill is involved in useing a ladder. And you cannot take ladder work out of the this thread baecause you have to use a ladder to reach the windows, the same with a pole.
I could hand over my pole to a customer and let him have a go at cleaning an upstairs window, But their is no way I would let him go up my ladder to clean a window.
I have you ever watched somebody carry a ladder who is not used to carrying one. It normally takes Two people. I watched a neighbour climb is ladder last week to clean his gutters out. I had to go in, he looked like he was going to fall off. It was painfull.
For me taking everything involved trad wins hands down.
Dont get too excited Squeaks I am not saying I prefer trad w/c but I do think its more skill orientated. You can allways feel smug that you are chosing the more skifull option in w/cleaning.
Nel.
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If ladder work goes into it then presuming its not high, usaul first floor domestic stuff its still not greatly skillfull, lets talk about big poles or even 30ft and above do you feel comtable giving someone a big pole and letting them lose, I doubt it, because I certainly wouldnt.
You have to be very compitient to operate big poles, fair enough if its your own work your going to be carefull. But someone else wont care, they will whip poles around not looking at the brush, what if they smash a window or trip, what about potentially leaky windows, what about setting up times, what about hoses everywere, all skills. Many many more than using a squeggee and ladder, anyone can clean windows trad and wfp, trad skills dont take long to achive.
You can look at it both ways, and there skillfull in diffrent ways, I admit there is no skill in gettin a pole out splashing a bit of water and done. But its the whole package aswell. Im undecided about this one. I do know and im sure all of you would agree, a standard window infront of some random person with no w/c experience what so ever would clean it better trad than wfp.
ProPole
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I used to work with an older fella who could strip down a diesel engine ( gardiner ,perkins etc.) into bits, machine parts if necessary and rebuild the engine. Same with gear boxes , hub reductions anything mechanical. because he had no qualifications he was paid as semi skilled labour. most so called skilled mechanics today probably have at the most , 50% of his ability and knowledge.
As with everything in todays Tony Blair land everybody has to be an achiever. Well sorry, we just clean windows and that is the reality. its not difficult whatever method you use. I've shown countless guys how to do the job and almost without exception after a couple of weeks the've been up and running.
I think people are confusing learning a technique as opposed to a skill.
A skill is drawing on knowledge from a multitude of sources gained from the slow learing curve of an apprenticeship or similar disipline.
A technique is repeating the same motion or action so it is done efficiently and economically. thats window cleaning.
Now, running your own business and being disiplined , dealing with safety issues,customers, tax returns, canvassing, etc ,etc, thats what sets us apart from the average 9 to 5 joe turning up for the same old deal week in week out for a wage which he has very little control over. Now thats skill knowing that every week you and you alone make your way in the world.
Beholden to no one, independent and free (for the most part) of the politics that are such a bind as an employee.
enjoy
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Great answer Graham.
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Yea, very well said Graham.
people are confusing learning a technique as opposed to a skill.
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Propole when did you last see a window that I have cleaned? ??? You haven't, so don't critisise my work, at least I rinse them properly ;D >:( I found wfp easy from day one, I just don't like it, its trad for me ;D
Groundhog you just told us all on the A trad/wfp challenge! (For Ian, Squeaky,Tosh) thread that you can't use a water fed pole, you said you had to put it right with trad.
Maybe that is where Propole got his information.
Peter Fogwill
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Speak for yourself , i am highly skilled in my job,
I would challenge any lesser experienced window cleaner than me to know any where as many tricks, shortcuts etc as me.
If the windows were on a conveyor belt you may well have a point, but in reality they are at all different heights and degrees of dificulty and the skilled window cleaner will tackle them a lot easier than someone who merely knows the technique of q squeegie
Dave
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Propole I doubt that you ever go back to check your work, anyone who uses wfp if they are honest will tell you that you cannot guarantee a perfect finish everytime, that is why I always like to check my wfp work after I finish, so that I can put right any spots or runs ect, its because I take pride in my work not because of bad technique. I was taught the basic technique by the people at Omnipole, and I think you will agree that they know what they are talking about, especially Glyn who has over 30 years experiance in window cleaning! By the way he says to rinse brush off ;) its common sense really ;D
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I suppose there would have to be considering your cleaning windows with dirty water! its the blade that cleans the windows not the water ;)
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It depends I suppose on what we think of as skilled. I worked in the engineering industry setting up computor controlled machine tools. When I finished the job all that the operator had to do was load componants and press a button.
This was classed as a highly skilled trade.
In fact the only skill involved was learning how to do it. It's the same with mechanics, they only use a spanner or screwdriver most of the time, it's what they know that makes them skilled.
To me a skilled guy is someone that has mastered the perfect co-ordination between brain,eye and hand. A carpenter or stone mason comes to mind.
The most skilled guy ever? Well I reckon Michael Angelo.
A perfect blend of brain, eye, hand and artistic vision. How many guys could sculpture a David/ I bet he would have made a great window cleaner too. Dai