Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ian_Giles on September 12, 2006, 10:53:58 am
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Just to show some newbie's how quick WFP can be, here is a link to Peter Fogwill's site, and it shows him actually cleaning windows with WFP, 2 clips on the page, one shows him getting out the van and and setting up, the other shows him cleaning 2 windows....
What you will see is the kind of speed you work at on a regular repeat clean house....enjoy ;D
http://www.window-tools.com/trailer-videos.htm
Ian
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I must admit that i am curious about WFP but like many others i have my doubts as to whether it is worth the extra outlay and the extra hassle of setting it up. I like to wash my cloths and get in my car, keeping it nice and simple.
I dont see the point of these vids to be honest, it may just be me - but all i can see, is how quick it is to move a brush over a window.
I'm not knocking it as i have never tried it but i think a 'close up' vid of a before, during and after is the only thing that will be of any interest to anyone thinking of going WFP.
If it is as simple as it shows in the video, surely everyone in the country will be at it soon. It doesn't take long for everyone and their dog to jump on the 'bandwagon' - the thing with traditional cleaning is that not everyone can handle the heights and the physical aspect, seems that with guys pushing the whole 'easy' WFP thing then they may be making the huge mistake of undervaluing the service that they provide and eventually this surely will lead to 'market saturation.'
Carl.
P.S. If you can see a bandwagon, then you are too late.
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C Senor, I totally agree with your post. You have to ask yourself why these people are trying so hard to promote wfp use, do they want lots of competition and lower prices? or do they have another motive?
As I have said before I use trad & wfp, but on 90% of my round trad is much quicker. If you go round just giving it a quick brush down and a quick splash you may be able to clean them quite quick but the results will be rubbish! You can get good results with wfp but you have to take your time and do it properly!
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Do like WFP's but hand on heart this is not a good
marketing video.
The quality is poor and gives no indication has to how
great this system is.
Colin >:(
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got to admit at that speed i would not think i have earned my money.
Or given customer satifaction
Dave
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Its not as easy as that!
I can do It that fast but I take 2-4 times longer than that. Anyone who does It that fast can't be doing a good job ???
When were those windows last cleaned? 5 mins before the video was shot ;D
What If there Is insect dirt or bird dirt on the glass? I can assure you that on a monthly clean there Is some stubborn dirt on about 80% of houses. Which would mean there would have to be a lot more scrubbing than that!
Come on Ian! Is that the best you can find?
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Peter said that video was for demonstration purposes only
Here is the quote from the web site
The purpose of these videos is to show exactly how long it can take to do a couple of windows with the trailer system. How much time the window cleaners take to clean such windows is up to them, some window cleaners may spend more time rinsing or thouroly going over the frames, again that is up to the individual window cleaners. These videos were also taken before the launch of the new autobrush. The Autobrush makes for even easier window cleaning.
Dave
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Noticed he never rinsed the glass.
Steve
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As a newbie, i am curious about wfp, .. and i watch with interest,
i have long thought that once w/c becomes that easy that anyone can do it, the induststry as a whole would be saturated and only the already established guys would get on,
but then the 2.50 boys would be out in force much more than now,
i do really think it is a fantastic thing for the future, even though i know little about it,
but when you look at starting any new business, you look at competition and possible changes in the market ahead,
so that was and still is a concern to me, as a newbie.
Just out of interest, do people who use wfp, always do a first clean traditionally?
And my final point here is, why invent something so brilliant .....yet it drips water everywhere whilst cleaning , if they can stick a water extractor in a wet and dry vac.... then why cant they do the same with wfp....
Imagine that wash, rinse.... and then all the water sucked off the window... ! soap residue as well..
Gary.
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and having said all that i have just knocked back a detached house because there were huge bushes in front of the lounge window, making impossible to put a ladder up even with 2 people, for the large bedroom window above.
fors and against eh?
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If I did it that quick even on second third cleans there would be spots all over the glass, I like to wash frames and glass go to another window then go back and rinse when frames have stopped dripping.
I must admit tho, I am realy enjoying second cleans now, seems so much quicker than those dreaded first cleans but not as quick as Peter's demo.
Drew.
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Last week I began to think a backpack might be dead handy but then thought of the cost and the hassle involved and decided to just keep it simple and keep it trad for me personally,not knocking it but for me where I am at now it doesnt make sense but in time it might be an option.
I wasnt sure if he was actually cleaning them but it was interesting to read that it was only a demo so the speed he went at in that clip didnt really mean anything.
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I must admit tho, I am realy enjoying second cleans now, seems so much quicker than those dreaded first cleans but not as quick as Peter's demo.
Drew.
Drew,
Wait until your own windows are dirty; then clean them at super-quick speed and take a look at the results.
I do this when Wor Lass forces me to to clean my own windows and they still come up good.
I do take a bit more time on my customers though; the big fanny I am!
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Ian, you're less boring when you talk about cricket, and that takes some beating. ;D
I'd like to have a laugh at the state of those windows after he'd gone. ;D
I could do them trad that quick...if I didn't detail, didn't do sill, etc..... ::)
But they'd look crap.
Not as crap as he would have left them, but crap none-the-less.
If you want fast and accurate, look no further than our own Terry (squeegee god) Burrows.
You wouldn't get near him.
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My word...lol, I thought that would get some replies ;D
Peter has been WFP cleaning longer than most of us, and you will find that the windows have been rinsed!!
I guess this thread kind of ties in with the ongoing debate about rinsing on or off the glass, but Peter has a very high flow rate, and you must also remember that the window is being continually rinsed as it is being washed.
Quality is basic, but it is only there to show the speed that an experienced WFFPer can work at.
Now I find that probably 90% and above of my monthly repeat cleans are barely dirty enough to warrant cleaning again.
By the way, I believe in keeping the windows clean, not waiting until they get dirty to clean them.
I also find that fly poo washes of glass very easily indeed, bird poo is noticable at a glance, and when you see it then you spend more time washing it off.
Looks easy doesn't it?
but as some of the comments made have already shown, even those that now have WFP express doubts as to how those windows can be cleaned properly in that time.
Easy?
No it isn't you really do have to know what you are doing to do a proper job in this kind of time, you simply won't achieve this overnight.
But as I have pointed out on several occasions now, 30-40 seconds per window is very achievable.
you will also need to work with a very high flow rate to achieve it too.
I'm working at well over 2, maybe 2.5 litres a minute, but it has taken a long time for me to be comfortable working with such a high flow rate.
For a long time my flow rate was half of that, I simply couldn't cope with that much water gushing out of my brush.
Watch an experienced trad window cleaner whip through a few patio windows, it looks so easy that its obvious that anyone can do it.
but as we all know, what that trad guy does in a few minutes will take a total newbie 5 or 6 times as long to achieve, and the quality of the clean will be poor.
This I know from many years of employing and training window cleaners!
On a 12 window house I would do all of the upstairs and most of the downstairs too, they would be lucky to get 2 windows done, and I would probably have to go over most of their work to boot :-\
This clip isn't a speed clip, it isn't about quality, it is merely an example of what can be done..
Ian.
Oh dear, as I clicked on 'post' I saw that others had replied....
As usual I see that Squeaks has to slag of WFP and in particular slag of the ability of one of the leaders in WFP, such critisism is rude and unjustified.
Peter was not trying to speed clean, it was merely an example of WFP in action and being done by a very experienced and professional window cleaner.
Any time you want to tag along and watch me clean a standard monthly clean Roger, be my guest, get out your stop watch and time me on how long it takes me to get my gear out and clean a similar number of windows, including the downstairs.
We'll have a coffee and a chat while we wait for the windows to dry so that you can verify that they have been done to a high standard.
You will also notice that all frames and sills are thoroughly washed too.
I think you will find that the job that Peter has done will be as good as any that you could do.
this wasn't posted as a trad v WFP thread, it was pure WFP.
I did not post this link to see an unsuspecting man pilloried for doing his job, and his integrity called into question.
Comments like Squeaks will leave me no option but to delete the thread.
Ian
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I know that many of you are envolved in an ongoing debate about trad v wfp but Ians last comment makes me even more suspicious of these constant posts.
Seems that we cannot express an opinion. If the moderator doesnt like the answers then he simply threatens to withdraw the thread.
Is nobody else suspicious that this link is derived from a website that sells WFP systems !!??
A great psychiatrist once said that it takes a 'split second' to make a decision but you will spend an eternity justifying that decision.
Seems to me that alot of WF Polers are falling into that category.
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Tosh tried that and the wife moaned they were still dirty, but i must admit I was useing a lower flow rate than i am useing now, as with everything in life its a learning curve and i have still a long way to go but as every clean goes by I get better with my technique and my understanding of WFP.
Squeaky take Ian up on his offer, I know your a trad specialist and I think alot of what you say is down to your sense of humour which perhaps some people dont get, but I think you would be surprised at what can be achieved with WFP.
Drew.
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I tend to agree with Squeeky , this post was originaly to say look how fast wfp is.
Only in the latter stages did anyone say that the post was there for demonstration purposes.
If i cleaned that fast in my area they would be full of spots or runs, I followed Tosh's advice a few months back and low and behold i got complaints, justified ones.
There was very little scrubbing in that clip, so any impacted dirt would be left behind also if there has been a greasy or salty wind, that would be left behind too.
It is the scrubbing action that loosens the dirt, not going through it with one stroke then rinsing.
If i cleaned windows in just half that speed here in Cornwall the windows would still have traces of bird muck or salt on them.
Dave
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I think you will find that the job that Peter has done will be as good as any that you could do.
Maybe he can, but not in 10 seconds like that, no. Not a chance.
As usual I see that Squeaks has to slag of WFP and in particular slag of the ability of one of the leaders in WFP, such critisism is rude and unjustified.
I did not post this link to see an unsuspecting man pilloried for doing his job, and his integrity called into question.
Comments like Squeaks will leave me no option but to delete the thread.
I think it's rude and unjustified that I'm being slated for saying exactly what plenty of others above me had said.
You never mentioned anyone else as usual.
I agreed with others, but because it doesn't rave about your "Magic Wand" you blame me. ??? ::)
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Hi all
I am a fan of wfp it is quicker it is safer and the results are supurb on 98 % of windows however I was disapointed in this vid I really dont think the windows would come up that well at that speed unless cleaned weekly. also he does not look that professonal the whole way the van and trailor is presented I though he sold systems and I would not be impressed with this vid and buy from him.
This is only my opinion but from it is easy to see why Ionics is the largest, thier presentation and sales brochures are great even if the after sales service lets them down
The good thing about wfp is that anyone can do it but I dont think you have to worrey to much about the 2/6d brigade as the set up cost and running cost will always command a good price and most people will want the job done properly frame and all not just a rub with a dirty couple of beer mats. But just to make it clear I am not talking about good trad workers there will always be a place for them even when most windows wether commercial or domestic are done with wfp because you will still need to clean internaly and some windows not suitable for wfp by hand.
as for the point about sucking up the water I had a machine once that did this but you still had to clean in trad style the rubbers where crap and it left lines all over the window but it was great for cleaning bathroom tiles
I expect Rubin will now post a vid "that he prepared earlier"
Regards grant
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Squeaky,
I hate to admit this but I'm with you on that one! :-[
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C Senior,
I couild have simply removed roger's reply, and if that was me up there in the video clip I'd have happily accepted any critisism thrown at me, but it wasn't me, and to make totally unjustified comments such as Squeaky did was wrong. What he said was a very personal insult and slur on someone who has made many fine and constructive posts on this and other forums.
Debate is fine, but think about what you say before you put it in writing.
Drew,
you won't do the job this quick with a low flow rate! your flow rate will, by and large dictate the maximum speed you can work at.
you have the flow up high and still work at a gentle pace then you will merely waste water.
Set your flowrate at level that you can work comfortably, you gotta learn to walk before you can learn to run!
Roger,
I'm in Kingsmark Tomorrow, I've a few very straight forward cleans, I can't work as fast as Peter, but if you want to see exactly what can be done and at what speed then give me a call in the morning.
What you see Peter doing is not exceptional.
Dave,
Correct, it is about how fast you can clean with a WFP, but I'm also sure I memtioned that it was what can be done on a regular repeat type of clean!
Impacted dirt, bird dropping, greasy, salty wind?
you are right in all you say, no way could you clean windows that are filthy dirty in that time :o
Most of us, on repeat work will constantly come across windows that hardly have a mark on them, those in windy coastal areas have a much tougher job, and not just with WFP, but trad too, salt laden winds make window cleaning hard work regardless of the method you use.
Tosh,
The job is yours, she primly told me to sling me hook :-\ she will stick with you :'(
I don't mind though, you do more there than I do ;)
Ian
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Ian is spot on with what he says, it is possible to clean at that speed providing its a monthly clean there is no bird muck etc you need to have a high flow, however I personally wouldnt clean that fast but sometimes I wouldnt be far behind him, I would give the top frame a little more attention, also I like to rinse a little more but I cant see exactly how the water is reacting if its sheeting really nice you can some times rinse from the top of the window without going down it, giving the pole a little whip from side to side the water will cascade down takin all impurities with it. this can all be done easily with brush left on the glass ;D ;D
ProPole
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I think you will find that the job that Peter has done will be as good as any that you could do.
Maybe he can, but not in 10 seconds like that, no. Not a chance.
Wasn't ten seconds Roger...it was 17 seconds ;D
Come along and time me tomorrow, I'll be 10 seconds slower than that though, and if you can find fault with my work I'll come on here and eat humble pie :-[
I'm also talking about standard, easy to clean UPVC windows (a georgian one will take a couple of seconds longer ;D)
Ian
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steady children please, this isn't the place for that kind of personal argument,
No offence intended but could you both edit your posts to remove the acrimony?
Ian
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So much talk on this forum is based around speed of this and speed of that, what i would really love to see is a video of the results that can be achieved with WFP, that video means nothing unless the results afterwards can be seen.
I could run up a ladder and flick the window with a scrim and run back down the ladder, it wouldn't be a very good result though.
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guys you say you have a fast flow rate what does this mean do you set your varistream to booster, just wondered
jinky
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Sorry, Ian and Rog,
I am a wind-up merchant; it's my hobby. Ask Wor Lass. Ask Ian_Giles.
I nearly gave our Ian a heart-attack this morning; creeping up on him while he was sat in his van, reading the paper and shouting 'boo'. Despite the name Ian_Giles called me; it still made me chuckle.
Relevant posts deleted.
Apologies to both.
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steady children please, this isn't the place for that kind of personal argument,
No offence intended but could you both edit your posts to remove the acrimony?
Ian
Post deleted....reluctantly.
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Thanks guys.....apreciated
Ian
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steady children please, this isn't the place for that kind of personal argument,
No offence intended but could you both edit your posts to remove the acrimony?
Ian
Post deleted....reluctantly.
Thanks Squeaky,
But you've got to admit, WFP is pretty quick, especially when you've got loads of ladder work to do; cool looking too!
Instead of moving and climbing up and down a ladder, you just take a couple of steps and you're at the next window.
It just seems too easy sometimes.
We do over 300 cleans per month, okay, small cheese by some standards; we're very much still 'Mickey Mouse', but I've only lost a small handfull of customers because of WFP and taken on armfulls of new ones; some of which I wouldn't even have considered taking on as a trad window cleaner, since they were too high, to awkward or too much like hard work; and these accounts are often my best paying work.
It's not a bad tool, really, is it?
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Tosh,
The job is yours, she primly told me to sling me hook :-\ she will stick with you :'(
I don't mind though, you do more there than I do ;)
Ian
Sorry Mate,
She fancies me, I think; she's only human.
If you like I'll drop her.
But I do both her neighbors, the house over the road and all those bungalows near her!
Anyway, that'll teach you for taking over that £100 account I used to do in the town centre and getting it for £120; on a more regular basis than we did it too!!!
;D
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Yeah I know 8)
No, don't drop her, carry on dude, she is kinda good looking too!
It's why I said for you to carry on with her, you do the neighbour and one opposite, so it makes sense for you to do it.
On another occasion I agree with you dropping her...just to teach her a lesson! but she's actually quite nice!
Jinky,
I personally don't have varistream, so can't comment, I've a 60 psi pump, I used to use Peter's re-circulating system, but I've done away with that now and work with the pump blasting flat out all the time.
If you have a 100psi pump then you'll need the control that varistream will give you.
Although I looked on the williamson site and I'm sure I read that the flow rate varies with some of their pumps for WFP; ie, at full pressure the flow rate per min is 1.5 litres per min.
At half power it is 2.5 litres per min.
so check with the manufacturer!! My figures above were guess work by the way, but you get the idea.
If you want to know your flow rate at any given setting, turn pump on for a minute at each setting and measure what is delivered.
Ian
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Sorry Ian but i am in total disagreement with the way you have handled this thread.
I read Squeakys post and didnt see anything which was a personal insult to the guy in the video. He simply just stated his opinion (thats how i perceive it anyway)
If you own a website selling WFP systems and put a video up like that, then what do you expect people to do ? Squeaky only said what everyone was thinking, it was rubbish.
I find it very sad that you have removed his opinion, and i think it downgrades the whole purpose of a 'forum' as a place of discussion.
I for one am saddened by the road the 'cleanitup forum' is taking, it is getting to the point that the 'window cleaning issues' should perhaps be changed to the 'WFP Issues'
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thanks for replying ian
now am I right in believing if I turn thr varistream down I get more of a flow rate
was also reading tosh statement about a house across the road etc
up here if a window cleaner has the whole area then no one goes in and I am talking areas as big as 500 houses
but down your way they seem to do them in the same street is this right or have I picked this up wrong
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I for one am saddened by the road the 'cleanitup forum' is taking, it is getting to the point that the 'window cleaning issues' should perhaps be changed to the 'WFP Issues'
The only thing that makes this forum is the members, and it's the members here who start and contribute to threads.
If you wish to start a new 'trad related' thread; go ahead. There's nothing stopping you. In fact the 'trad threads' always get a good response, because most of the WFP users here are also experienced in trad.
It's no good being a 'ladder only' member here and whinging that there's too much WFP stuff on this forum, if you're not willing to start a new thread for any desired 'trad' topic you wish you hear other opinions on.
Your post seems to indicate that we're all WFP suppliers and trying to sell it to you, or something.
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up here if a window cleaner has the whole area then no one goes in and I am talking areas as big as 500 houses
but down your way they seem to do them in the same street is this right or have I picked this up wrong
In some areas around Chepstow there's at least nine or ten window cleaners working in the same areas, each having chunks of work here and there.
I clean a wadge of houses in one street where Squeaky also works. I also clean close to an area where Ian_Giles works; although we've an agreement in that area as to where and what we clean (Yew Tree Drive).
I also clean quite a few houses around where Leekson's (a member here) lives and works; though he's done well canvassing the houses I could've had; had I canvassed them myself. Good on him.
ALS Cleaning Services (Alan), another member here, is someone else I regularly bump into cleaning windows in areas I work in.
There's almost no estate type areas I can think of where one window cleaner dominates the whole scene; and if I did hear of such a place; I think that would be a good place to canvass! ;D
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I have just watched the two videos.
The first one shows how quick wfp is to set up and start cleaning. I have read such a lot of nonsense of how long people think it takes to set up before you can start cleaning, or some wfp's who seam to have diffuculty in getting set up quickly. Its very simple as shown in video 1, Get pole and hose and walk. On the more awkward propertys their is an art to doing it right, if you have enough common sense you will make it look easy.
The second video does not show wfp at its best. My only concern Especially if its an high flow rate. Why having finished the second upstairs window would you make it look like your about to start cleaning the window directly underneath. Their is a porch with guttering under the first window cleaned, Surely you would start on the porch door before the window.
I am not nit picking, but if you are going to sell wfp equipment and be a supplier then you should just spend an extra few minutes giving more thought to how you are going to show wfp.
Nel.
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wow, that was a good read.... you watching dave? ;)
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I find it very sad that you have removed his opinion, and i think it downgrades the whole purpose of a 'forum' as a place of discussion.
Er, C Senior,
I've not removed Squeaky's reply, only rapped his knuckles for the way in which displayed his opinion,
Defaming the man was not on.
But this was and is a WFP thread, anyone can contribute of course, but for someone who has never even used the system to say that a window cannot possibly be cleaned to a good standard in that time...well...it is only guesswork because they simply do not nor cannot know.
Squeaks as everyone knows is our resident WFP hater, I keep offering him the chance to time or prove that what I claim cannot be done..so far he refuses to accept the challenge.
I thought he might this time as I'm not calling into question anything to do with his work, Rather I'm putting myself up to risk being shot down in flames :-[
Squeaks scoffs at the fact that some of us reckon a window can be cleaned to a good standard so fast, I'm not sure I could do a normal window to a good standard in just 17 seconds, but I know I can do one comfortably in 30 seconds or less.
I would just like to be able to have the chance to prove it to the forum's reknown WFP hater.
Abacus wasn't impressed with the presentation of the equipment, and in particular in comparison to Ionics.
Well, yes, not as slick and corperate as Ionics, Peter has done all his own work, but it just shows a normal working guy in his van towing a trailer mount system and setting up.
Were Squeaks not such an ardent hater of WFP, this would be the exact system I would recommend to him, hell, if his parents or partners parents couldn't help him out with water storage, if he got a 1000 litre IBC tank I'd be more than happy for him to use my place.
All he'd have to do would be to call around and fill up his 350 litre tank every couple of days.
Not that he will of course, he's more than happy to stay working off ladders.
Neil is right in his observations too, I would do the window under the porch roof first too...not that I thought about it until he pointed it out though!!
Ian
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Thing that got me with the vid is that:
1. The guy convieniently could park right outside the house.
2. It doesn't show him doing the back...does he trail a hose pipe through the house?
3. How does he get at Velux's without ladders?
4. Please don't tell me "pure" water will get baked-on bird s##t off completely!
5. Presumably the dirty water gathers on the sills...didn't see him wiping those down.
6. What happens if 1/2 way through the day he runs out of DW or the battery flats?
Yesterday I did a 6 bed house with old fashioned leaded glass...you know the sort...all at different angles...have to be carefull how much pressure applied and YES! then I could see how much a WFP would be beneficial. Also if I were to do low-rise office blocks...yep can see the advantage as well. But away from that for me it's ladders, bucket blade and scrim.
And finally: I'm confident that by the time the guy got that contraption out of his van and set it up etc that I'd have done both those windows and been onto the ground ones. Also I wouldn't have the aggro of putting the whole thing away.
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Please don't get me wrong here Ian & Tosh, i am not a WFP hater ! lol
In fact, i am very curious about it and on my own round i know of instances it would be very useful.
Perhaps i was a bit hasty in defending Squeaks' opinion and perhaps there is a history of 'debating' between you guys that i'm not aware of. (i'll note this for the future) ;)
However, Tosh is right in one thing that he said - that it does feel (to me) that the WFP system is being sold to us at every corner (this thread is actually a very good example of why i feel this) - This isn't a problem for me, just something that i have felt increasing over the last few weeks while reading threads.
I do like reading the WFP threads because of my curiosity and there's alot of great posts and honest opinions, i think Neil offers a very honest opinion if it, thanks Neil.
;D
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Just thought of something concerning WFP...
I used to be a pro decorator working in the construction industy. I worked with a load of blokes who for many years had used a 'roller pole'
I think its a very similar action to the window cleaning, but to be honest the WFP probably puts more strain on the back of your neck and shoulders (this is a guess) due to the heights worked at.
My point is, that after years of rolling walls and ceilings with a paint roller some of the blokes i've worked with can barely move their heads now !! they get severe pains and a 'stiff neck' situation where the back of their necks are damaged from years of using the poles. One guy i know can't move his head left or right.
This isn't a joke of any kind, i think its something you guys should be very careful about.
Carl.
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C Senor,
Its good that you are curious about wfp.
If you are a w/c then of course its only logical that wfp should intrest you. Its a way of cleaning windows that removes the risks involved with ladder work. A good freind of mine had a very nasty fall 20 yrs ago when w/c. He nearly had his right arm amputated because of the extent of his injuires.
But other then the Safety issue you have to ask yourself can you make more money from wfp, and will it do as good as a job as trad w/c? The answer is YES to both questions.
I was curious for a year about wfp, but I was also happy with trad w/c. It was August last year when I asked one of my freinds to clean my own windows with wfp. I had a go myself on two windows and watched him do the rest.
I only did two windows because I was cream crackerd after doing 2 windows. My first impression was its not for me, its too hard and I dont like it. I checked the windows and I was impressed with the finnish. But what really got to me was the time diffrence. It takes me over 40 mins and with wfp it took 30 mins, and that was with me being taught how to use it.
From then on I could not get wfp out of my head. I decided to Research wfp to death. I spoke to lots of w/c who had switched to wfp,I had demos as well from all the big boys.
A year on, I wish I had made the switch to wfp many years ago.
Sorry Simon,
Your post does not hold water. Have you timed him to see how quick he is in setting up in the video. If your not wearing red underpants on the outside of your trousers with a Big S on your chest you will not be faster.
If you look at video 1.
How will you put your ladders up to to clean the window above the porch? If you put them straight up, the angle will be to Dangerous, Plus there is a large bush in the way as well. Will you also be carrying your ladder support?
You are just trying to make jibes about wfp that dont stack up.
Nel
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If you want fast and accurate, look no further than our own Terry (squeegee god) Burrows.
You wouldn't get near him.
On a plain glass window in central london but most people on here live in small towns or villages ??????? what about leaded? 5 floors up ?
oh i forgot you only do £2 houses all day all year when us who have invested in wfp have been able to spend the money on decent equipment which means we turnover not make a wage .The idea of wfp's are to be able to clean larger ,taller ,awkward properties which probablly cant be done with a ladder and squeegee not bungalows and 2 bedroom houses.
Bit like keeping up with the jone's those who cant allways feel threaten'd and jealous beacause they cant and never will be able to afford what everyone else has and they havent.
This is my opinion oh and i have cleaned windows for 4 years wfp only and unless i have 700 monthly customers who are all lying when they say that their windows look great well........... best i give up now before i get my next wfp and van on the road
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My point is, that after years of rolling walls and ceilings with a paint roller some of the blokes i've worked with can barely move their heads now !! they get severe pains and a 'stiff neck' situation where the back of their necks are damaged from years of using the poles. One guy i know can't move his head left or right.
Well that's that then.
I couldn't if I wanted to. :(
I broke my back and crushed 2 vertebrae 15 years ago, and I've got a problem with injuries to my neck, back, and to some extent shoulders too.
I suffer so easily too......
I'm sat here now not able to look left.
Why? I cuddled my daughter, and click.... ::)
That was over a week ago. :-\
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Only just noticed this gem..... ;D
If you want fast and accurate, look no further than our own Terry (squeegee god) Burrows.
You wouldn't get near him.
On a plain glass window in central london but most people on here live in small towns or villages ??????? what about leaded? 5 floors up ?
oh i forgot you only do £2 houses all day all year when us who have invested in wfp have been able to spend the money on decent equipment which means we turnover not make a wage
I make plenty of cash mate.
£20-30 three-floor jobs sometimes too.
How wrong could you be?
Bit like keeping up with the jone's those who cant allways feel threaten'd and jealous beacause they cant and never will be able to afford what everyone else has and they havent.
Why would I be jealous?
Because my system is reliable?
Because my method works?
Because I've got less to think about?
Wake up!
This is my opinion oh and i have cleaned windows for 4 years wfp only and unless i have 700 monthly customers who are all lying when they say that their windows look great well........... best i give up now before i get my next wfp and van on the road
By then they might ban it. ;D
Enjoy
Oh, and 4 years experience?
I bow to your knowledge newbie. ;D
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Well wheather wfp is slow or fast i dont really care as i was awarded with a nice £1200.00 a month contract yesterday because i use wfp and the last outfit were working off ladders and after an incident last month involving them, the safetey officer kicked them into touch and opened the door to me.
I have also been asked to do another monthly account worth around £440.00 i am happy and without wfp i wouldnt have got a look in with this work.
Maybe next year i,ll be staying in a caravan when i go on holiday instead of a tent.
;)
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Thing that got me with the vid is that:
1. The guy convieniently could park right outside the house.
Reply; This vid is mererly an demonstration of WFP in action! Also I have a great many accounts where access is very easy.
2. It doesn't show him doing the back...does he trail a hose pipe through the house?
Reply; please see the first reply!
3. How does he get at Velux's without ladders?
Reply; Piece of cake, I do several and most of them you couldn't get at with a ladder. You simply extend pole and use a gooseneck, if you can see it, you can clean it.
4. Please don't tell me "pure" water will get baked-on bird poo off completely!
Reply; Er...sorry but, well, yes it does mostly in 2 and a half years I haven't had to resort to ladders to get off bird muck.
5. Presumably the dirty water gathers on the sills...didn't see him wiping those down.
Reply; Sills are a piece of cake, the water is not that dirty on repeat cleans and is washed off the sills easily. Remember, most of the time you are doing repeat work and the sill are going to be clean, so are the frames, you are not going to be flushing loads of dirty water off the windows.)
6. What happens if 1/2 way through the day he runs out of DW or the battery flats?
Reply; That can happen now and again, but if your battery runs flat then you are at fault yourself for not keeping it charged.
A 85 amp battery will power you for up to three days if you keep forgetting to charge it.
I personally charge mine every night.
Running out of water can happen too, particularly for those operating out of the back of a car, but you simply go back home and fill up if need be, most of us operate within a few miles of home.
Yesterday I did a 6 bed house with old fashioned leaded glass...you know the sort...all at different angles...have to be carefull how much pressure applied and YES! then I could see how much a WFP would be beneficial. Also if I were to do low-rise office blocks...yep can see the advantage as well. But away from that for me it's ladders, bucket blade and scrim.
And finally: I'm confident that by the time the guy got that contraption out of his van and set it up etc that I'd have done both those windows and been onto the ground ones. Also I wouldn't have the aggro of putting the whole thing away.
Reply; Set up is easily as quick as trad, trad certainly gains over WFP on putting the gear away, but not by much.
You would not have got to that first window before him, and you would not have cleaned it in under a minute let alone 17 seconds (forthe sake of argument lets assume it has been done properly).
Ian
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Ian, Bet you wish you never started this thread!!
Steve
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squeeky
just give it up you are jumping on anything any one says without knowing what your talking about an to be honest not making yourself look that bright you can hardly comment unless you know their medical history I have a back problem partly inherited partly due to working ladders and window fitting my ostiopath agrees that the pole system is better for my back as for my neck it never gets as locked as when I carried ladders all day
its how you use it if you have a certain problem take steps to avoid compounding it
Ive done both trad and wfp still do some trad but much prefere wfp when you have at least worked with somebody and used the pole system for a week perhaps your thoughts could be taken more seriously
not a dig squeeky just an opinion
regards grant
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Just thought of something concerning WFP...
I used to be a pro decorator working in the construction industy. I worked with a load of blokes who for many years had used a 'roller pole'
I think its a very similar action to the window cleaning, but to be honest the WFP probably puts more strain on the back of your neck and shoulders (this is a guess) due to the heights worked at.
My point is, that after years of rolling walls and ceilings with a paint roller some of the blokes i've worked with can barely move their heads now !! they get severe pains and a 'stiff neck' situation where the back of their necks are damaged from years of using the poles. One guy i know can't move his head left or right.
This isn't a joke of any kind, i think its something you guys should be very careful about.
Carl.
A good point,
I used to be a pro decorator myself, it was what I went in for as an apprentice on my old mans building company, ran my own company for a few years after I finished my training.
Rolling ceilings or artexing them is far more of a strain than using the WFP pole, it is more similar to rolling walls than ceilings.
At the end of the day it is a manual job, and with any manual work there is a risk of injury.
But there are ways of reducing that risk, the angle you work at, swopping arms regularly and so on.
I'm 50 years old, been using WFP day in and day out for 2 and a half years, and so far no sign of injury or overt wear and tear on my aging body.
Only time will tell of course as to whether or not I'll be cream crackered or not as a result of using this system.
But we should all do our best to work in a fashion that will minimize any potential risk...its too late once the damage is done.
Steve,
I guessed what would happen once I popped that link up!
It's got argumentative at times, but there is also a decent thread of debate amonst the many and varied replies!
Ian
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I think this thread is excellent.
Ian has made some good points about water flow.
When i changed over to WFP 19 months ago i used to use 1ltr a minute now i use between 2 and 2 1/2 ltrs a minute like ian 60psi up on full got a varistream didn't like it and for a 60psi pump you don't need it.
Anyway even though my flow rate is a lot higher now than when i first started i use less water per propertie just because i know how to get the finish right and im heck of a lot quicker than when i first started and also as ian has said with a high flow rate the window is always getting rinsed as you work.
Also i have never myself had any neck problems from WFP.
I think you will only get neck problems if you stand to close to the building stand back further its easier to clean anyway and you will have no neck problems.
Paul
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Oh, and 4 years experience?
I bow to your knowledge newbie.
Like i said you clean windows i run a business
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Doing what?
Cleaning windows?
I clean windows, and I work for myself.
Oops, that's a business.....
Your point is? ??? ;D
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Squeaks, Easyclean....enough please. You want a direct and personal argument take it somewhere else.
Ian
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You have stated you bow to my knowledge........im presuming you have a welath of window cleaning experience i would like to know exactlly what you know more about cleaning a piece of glass than i do with only being 4 years window cleaning ?
As all of your posts have stated wfp is c**p and using a squeege is the b all and end all
You are constantly berating other users on this forum and forever putting people down because they use different techniques regarding wfp's than using a ladder and a squeege.
I have looked on the internet and also enquired with the local college's and universities and cannot find any courses on window cleaning as such.Thefore anyone can clean a piece of glass it dosent take a genius to know how to use one and you dont need to be a rocket scientist.
So as you are so keen to be little me regarding my "4 years experience please enlighten me to the knowledge that you posses because i for the life of me cannot see why having 4 years to your years upon years puts you above me or anyone else as being a better window cleaner???
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You were the one who made out you were "bigger and better"
All I did was pull your head out of your bottom.....
Sorry Ian, but I'm getting put-downs for not using wfp again. ::)
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Boys, please, I cannot remove posts from a topic I have started, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread.
I can go in and edit your posts, but I really don't want to do that.
Ian
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Good thread, this is one of the reasons this is one of my favourite forums.
I have read through the post pretty fast, not as fast as I clean window though :) I have wanted to reply to most of the posts but will start with one of the earlier ones with regards to my short videos. These videos show exactly how long it takes to clean glass with a WFP, and the windows were left at the end of the clean spotless. The windows were last cleaned approx 4 weeks previous to that cleaning. Had there been any fly or bird mess on the glass it would have been dealt with appropriately, but like Ian has already stated there is never much on the glass from month to month.
Had the glass some birds dirt or fly mess on it then although it may have taken longer you would be lucky if it would have taken 10 seconds longer per window.
The reason I cleaned the window under the second window I cleaned was to cut out some walking. I would have had to walk over to the window below the slopping roof, then I would have had to walk back to the one below the second window I cleaned, that would have doubled the distance I had to travel. Even if I had done it in reverse starting at the second window then the one above the roof then the one below the roof, then the last one I would still be doubling the distance I had to walk. Not much time granted, but add another couple of task that you could save time on and then multiply that by the amount of houses you clean and you have a significant daily time saving.
Had I rinsed separately, or had there been something on the glass that would have made me use more water than usual, then I may have cleaned the window under the roof first to allow the other widow to stop dripping on the window below. But in this case a very minimum amount of water was used causing no problems on the windows below.
As far as the results are concerned the videos were not for this reason. I think every window cleaner in the UK knows that these systems work, what most ask now is what sort of time saving can they expect.
Peter Fogwill
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C Senor, I totally agree with your post. You have to ask yourself why these people are trying so hard to promote wfp use, do they want lots of competition and lower prices? or do they have another motive?
As I have said before I use trad & wfp, but on 90% of my round trad is much quicker. If you go round just giving it a quick brush down and a quick splash you may be able to clean them quite quick but the results will be rubbish! You can get good results with wfp but you have to take your time and do it properly!
Groundhog, you can do it fast and do it proper. How many people have you seen that use a squeegee much slower than you do, and some of them will do a worse job even although they do it slower.
Peter Fogwill
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got to admit at that speed i would not think i have earned my money.
Or given customer satifaction
Dave
The customer pays a certain amount to have their windows cleaned, at the end of the day the windows are clean, what’s the problem?
Peter Fogwill
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Its not as easy as that!
I can do It that fast but I take 2-4 times longer than that. Anyone who does It that fast can't be doing a good job ???
When were those windows last cleaned? 5 mins before the video was shot ;D
What If there Is insect dirt or bird dirt on the glass? I can assure you that on a monthly clean there Is some stubborn dirt on about 80% of houses. Which would mean there would have to be a lot more scrubbing than that!
Come on Ian! Is that the best you can find?
Not the first time I have been accused of not doing a window properly, but only from people who have not seen the results thankfully. I was once told that no way I could leave a window clean without detailing after squeegeeing.
Peter Fogwill
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Ian, you're less boring when you talk about cricket, and that takes some beating. ;D
I'd like to have a laugh at the state of those windows after he'd gone. ;D
I could do them trad that quick...if I didn't detail, didn't do sill, etc..... ::)
But they'd look crap.
Not as crap as he would have left them, but crap none-the-less.
If you want fast and accurate, look no further than our own Terry (squeegee god) Burrows.
You wouldn't get near him.
I have always tried to stay clear of traditional vs. WFP debates. If you think of it traditional window cleaning is probably more likely to be a chamois and scrim, the squeegee is still in its infancy. Why did we move over to the squeegee? because it was much faster and much better results. Same with the WFP much faster and much better results. WFP is the traditional of the future.
Peter Fogwill
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I tend to agree with Squeeky , this post was originaly to say look how fast wfp is.
Only in the latter stages did anyone say that the post was there for demonstration purposes.
If i cleaned that fast in my area they would be full of spots or runs, I followed Tosh's advice a few months back and low and behold i got complaints, justified ones.
There was very little scrubbing in that clip, so any impacted dirt would be left behind also if there has been a greasy or salty wind, that would be left behind too.
It is the scrubbing action that loosens the dirt, not going through it with one stroke then rinsing.
If i cleaned windows in just half that speed here in Cornwall the windows would still have traces of bird muck or salt on them.
Dave
Dave you deal with every window individually. When cleaning with a squeegee you look at the glass first to see what needs to be done, once you see what needs to be done you set about cleaning it. If you see a bit of bird dirt you won't scrub the whole of the glass as much as you scrub the particular section with the birds dirt on it would you? No. And you wouldn’t scrub a window for a whole minute just because you had to scrub the window before for a minute because it had birds dirt on it, would you? And the same applies to WFP work, you don't scrub and rinse the heck out of the glass just in case the glass has something on it. You are not working behind a curtain, you can see what is, or is not on the glass.
Peter Fogwill
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Wow Peter you like to give a good reply. I think you have covered all the points.
I will say you talk a lot of common sense.
Nel. ;D
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Hi Peter,
While your hear I would greatly appreciate your expert advise in using poles correctly, do you recommend rinsing brush off?
Can you clarify that its ok to rinse brush on?
Reards
ProPole
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Hi Peter,
While ypur hear I would greatly appreciate your expert advise in using poles correctly, do you reccomend rinsing brush off?
Can you clarify that its ok to rinse brush on?
Reards
ProPole
Hi Propole, I very rarely lift the brush off the glass, but I would not say never, sometimes it might be necessary.
I think personally you waste water by doing a separate rinse with the brush off the glass, but I suppose it depends on a few things, water pressure, jets, brush, to name but a few.
Peter Fogwill
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Thanks for the reply Peter. ;)
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Wow Peter you like to give a good reply. I think you have covered all the ponts.
I will say you talk a lot of common sense.
Nel. ;D
Thanks Neil, and thanks Ian.
I think Ian covered most of the points for me, and saved me quite a bit of typing.
Peter Fogwill
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Why did we move over to the squeegee? because it was much faster and much better results. Same with the WFP much faster and much better results.
;D ;D ;D
Please.....my sides have split!!! ;D
Classic. ;)
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Why did we move over to the squeegee? because it was much faster and much better results. Same with the WFP much faster and much better results.
;D ;D ;D
Please.....my sides have split!!! ;D
Classic. ;)
Squeaky, the earlier post about the paint roller got me thinking I wonder how many old painters went about saying you won't catch me using a roller, I can do a much better job with a brush running up and down a ladder all day? Even although he could have put his roller on a pole and covered large expanses in a fraction of the time, and most of the time standing safely on the ground. I bet there was still some who said the brush was best.
I take it you don't believe in the results as that is the part you underlined? So you are beginning to accept that the WFP is faster. Well I suppose that is one step in the right direction. another two steps and your life will change for the better.
Peter Fogwill
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You may laugh, but come along Rog, watch me work, time me and check my results...(not after 3 weeks of weathering have taken place)
Tosh will no doubt be happy to offer you the same.
I'm not as quick as Peter, but I'm quicker than you.
You like to finish early on a Friday, so just so that it doesn't affect your earnings, meet me friday after you finish work, come along and see exactly what WFP is capable of in skilled hands.
We can go and have a coffee with the customer (I'll save a bungalow I have to do) by the time we have finished chatting to the customer (she's a lovely old lady) the windows will be dry and you can check and verify the results.
what will take me 20 minutes (or less) would take you 40 (I'm not joking) all straight forward Squeegee windows too. all UPVC.Why did we move over to the squeegee? because it was much faster and much better results. Same with the WFP much faster and much better results.
;D ;D ;D
Please.....my sides have split!!! ;D
Classic. ;)
you sacastically say your sides are splitting, inferring Peter is talking Tosh (sorry Tosh :-[)
If you are busy this Friday I'll save it for next Friday, or the Friday after if you like....
Think how dirty it will be by then, and I'm already a week late!
come on...make a WFP advocate eat humble pie!...if you dare that is ;D
have just read Peter's reply,
When I started decorating it was exactly in that state of flux!
The old timers sneered at using rollers, finish was pants etc...
All change now though.....
Ian
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I'm still learning how to detail properly so i find wfp quicker on most of my work than traditional. But where having wfp really makes a difference is that i can now clean 100% of the properties i work on, instead of the 90% when using a ladder only.
It's only 10% i know, but it is the most lucrative % of the job.
And after cleaning 90% off ladders, it is free extra income.
No travel costs and a few pennies worth of pure water.
It also gives freedom to seek out work that would be unsuitable with ladders.
Great thread.
mark
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You can say what you like but there is no way that you can make a good job of cleaning a window by sloshing a bit of water on it and pushing a brush up and down a couple of times! ::)
I use wfp, so don't try to make out to me that there is any skill to it, I know that you can make a good job with wfp, but that is by taking a bit of time and care, and also pride in your job :o I would not have the nerve or cheek to clean my customers windows in that kind of slap dash fashion! ???
I have recently gained some work in a local village because the customers did not like the way their old cleaner cleaned their windows, he used wfp, and he did a very poor job, there were spots and runs all over the glass, and he had made no effort to wipe any sills. I am going to clean them trad, and the customers are delighted ;D
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I've already seen lots of poor results, and so have a lot of other people.
You cleaning one house when you know I'm inspecting it isn't going to reverse what I've seen.
If I get time I'll have a look.
I'm sure you'll do a lovely job.
But I know how it often does turn out.....
...and how can you have a bungalow that takes me 40 mins? ;D
It would have to be best part of 50 windows!
I don't know of any 15 bedroom bungys. ???
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You can say what you like but there is no way that you can make a good job of cleaning a window by sloshing a bit of water on it and pushing a brush up and down a couple of times!
Groundhog If you are wfp and not getting better results on 95% of your cleans then it beats me as too how some wfpolers are screwing up my round was building steadilly before wfp now I cant go out without picking up more work I think there must be an awfull lot of wfpers out there that havent done there homework for reports of such bad results.
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You can say what you like but there is no way that you can make a good job of cleaning a window by sloshing a bit of water on it and pushing a brush up and down a couple of times! ::)
I use wfp, so don't try to make out to me that there is any skill to it,
I have recently gained some work in a local village because the customers did not like the way their old cleaner cleaned their windows, he used wfp, and he did a very poor job, there were spots and runs all over the glass, and he had made no effort to wipe any sills. I am going to clean them trad, and the customers are delighted ;D
Groundhog,
Sorry I do disagree with you yet again. Wfp will do a perfect job on allmost every window, their are expections but you get to know which windows or houses these are and you can do them trad.
But you are trying to paint a picture that wfp is no good for a domestic round which is wrong. You have gone back to trad on domestics, fine I dont have a problem with that. But you should not try to infer that wfp is rubbish on a domestic round. I have a domestic round and wfp is fantastic on it, Yes I do odd houses and odd windows trad were wfp does not do the job to the standard I require. I am a w/c that uses both methods but wfp is used on about 96% of my round.
You know many wfp on this forum are happy with the results of wfp on domestic work. I am only posting this reply because a newbie could be put off investing in wfp becayse of reading posts like yours. If a lot of w/c were to switch back to trad because of bad results with wfp on domestic work you would have a pont. As it is you have to see you yourself as a very rare example in doing so.
As for customers being unhappy with wfp. You have to ask how good is the person useing it? I had a customer who as just come back off holiday, she stayed in a flat and while on holiday the flat was cleaned with wfp. She said " I could not beleive it when the windows dried out they were all spotty and streaky. I was really suprised because I thought they would be just as clean as when you do them. Why should those windows be so dirty and yours so clean?
Nel.
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Peter
Here in Cornwall you DO have to give the windows that extra scrub and rinse, i have been caught out too many times by windows that look clean initially only to find out later they were full of salt spray.
You can not always see it from the ground, anyone in a coastal town will tell you the same, they will also tell you seagull mess can be well and truly stuck and can take up to a couple of minutes to remove off each pane.
None of my windows are any where clean when i return to them after a month, they are either full of salt , bird muck , traffic dirt or snail trails so extra attention is always required
Dave
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I have never said that wfp was rubbish, I was refering to the way in which they were being cleaned on the video clip at the start of this thread, there is no way that you can clean a window properly like the man in that clip.
Wfpers keep going on about how much more proffessional they look, well take a look at the clip and tell me that it looks proffessional, it dosn't at all, I just hope that he is a £2.50 merchant, because that is all its worth if you clean windows like that. :o
As for not many wfp window cleaners going back to trad on domestics, all the window cleaners that I know in my area, and I can think of at least 6, have gone back to mainly trad on domestics, and use the wfp for commercial and conservatory roofs ect. Also I have read about others on other less biased forums, also going back to trad. :P
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Groundhog,
I dont know where you live, It could be if you live near the sea or for instance in an Industrial area were the windows are harder to clean correctly due to poulltion fall out if local w/c are revertaing back to trad on domectic work.
I have talked to w/c in my area who are commercial w/c who work for w/cleaning companys and do domestic customers as part of their job, But in the main they clean mainly commercial propertys. All these commercial w/c think wfp is rubbish on domestic work or not as good as trad.
Personally I think that is because a domestic customer is far more concerned with the quality of the job then a commercial customer. So the w/c are a bit slap happy on the commercial front knowing they can get away with it. They cant on domestic work, So the customers complain more. But that is down once again to the w/c and how good they are at cleaning windows.
I have 27yrs experince as a w/c, My freind as 25yrs, Another couple of freinds of mine have 20yrs experince each. They have domestic rounds and all of us think that wfp on domestic work gives a better finnish then Trad on most domestic propertys.
So we are not wet behind our ears. We all know what we are talking about when we compare wfp and trad w/c. We have over 85yrs combined experince with trad w/c, No one is pulling the wool over our eyes with wfp.
If I thought wfp was rubbish for domestic work, I would revert back to trad. If wfp was no good then Customers would leave me in there droves. That is not happening the Opposite is happening in fact and my round is getting bigger and bigger due to the recomendations I am getting with wfp.
I am not trying to stamp on anyone who speaks against wfp but I do think you are in the minority and I do wonder how good you actually are with wfp.
Nel ;)
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I never said wfp was rubbish, if you read my post properly you will see that I was talking about the way that the man in the video is cleaning the windows. He was clearly not doing a good job. I believe that you can make a good job with wfp, but you have to take a little time and care, not a slap dash attitude as in the video clip. This shows wfp at its worst!
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Groundhog, maybe you should come up to Scotland and have a few lessons on water fed pole window cleaning, I am sure you will learn something. Infact bring the 6 local window cleaners with you as well.
I may even teach you a thing or two about traditional window cleaning while your here.
It would be money well spent and the trip would pay for itself in the first week you got back to work.
Peter Fogwill
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I never said wfp was rubbish, if you read my post properly you will see that I was talking about the way that the man in the video is cleaning the windows. He was clearly not doing a good job.
Right, what evidence do you have of a good job not being done? Maybe you have better eye sight than me, as it is not clear to me a good job is not being done.
Peter Fogwill
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I've already seen lots of poor results, and so have a lot of other people.
You cleaning one house when you know I'm inspecting it isn't going to reverse what I've seen.
If I get time I'll have a look.
I'm sure you'll do a lovely job.
But I know how it often does turn out.....
...and how can you have a bungalow that takes me 40 mins? ;D
It would have to be best part of 50 windows!
I don't know of any 15 bedroom bungys. ???
And if he did do a lovely job then it would be proof that the WFP is a good piece of equipment and that the poor results that you have seen is down to bad workmanship.
You would think you would be desperate to get out there with Ian and see for yourself one way or the other. And if it did do a lovely job, you could buy a system and share in all the benifits that Ian enjoys.
Peter Fogwill
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Groundhog,
The man in the video clip was Peter fogwill, and if you read his replies in this post you will understand what is going on in the video.
Just because he was quick does not mean he was crap!!
Those were windows that came up perfectly well, on others as he explained in his replies, he would treat them differently should they need it.
It takes me about 25 to 35 seconds to clean the average window, some are done quicker, some are done slower, and on almost all windows, all of the frames and sills are also cleaned properly in that time.
David, as you live in coastal, windy cornwall it is hardly surprising that WFP is much harder work, we hear very similar comments from Rosskesava in breezy Brighton. :o
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I've already seen lots of poor results, and so have a lot of other people.
You cleaning one house when you know I'm inspecting it isn't going to reverse what I've seen.
If I get time I'll have a look.
I'm sure you'll do a lovely job.
But I know how it often does turn out.....
...and how can you have a bungalow that takes me 40 mins? ;D
It would have to be best part of 50 windows!
I don't know of any 15 bedroom bungys. ???
And if he did do a lovely job then it would be proof that the WFP is a good piece of equipment and that the poor results that you have seen is down to bad workmanship.
You would think you would be desperate to get out there with Ian and see for yourself one way or the other. And if it did do a lovely job, you could buy a system and share in all the benifits that Ian enjoys.
Peter Fogwill
Peter,
Just my view, but the problem is that Squeaky has dug a hole for himself and is too fearful to change - which is why when Ian has laid down the gauntlet he comes up with "non-reasons" to avoid what he sees as a confrontation which will result in him being proved wrong.
Squeaky, you will do what you want - not long ago you posted about re-training and leaving window cleaning and if you're going to do that I wouldn't leave it any longer.
However, for what ever reason some of us are sticking with what we are good at and are looking for ways to improve our businesses. Like me, many pride ourselves on providing a good service and whether we use trad. or wfp that can be done.
For me on domestic as well as commercial, overall wfp allows me to clean many more windows than I could before. After eighteen months of wfp I now clean to a high standard, on average, in earning terms about 30/40% more than I did on traditional. What kind of businessman wouldn'tuse a tool that could do that? Unless he had rocks in his head or he was so lacking in confidence that he could convince his customers as to the benefits and follow through with good results.
Newbies!
Please - please do not be put off of wfp - I bought a trolley system from Peter in Feb 2005 and have slowly changed bits here and there so that I am running a tank from my estate car with microbore etc. The advice I got and continue to get from Peter and from Ian, Roy, Tosh, Neil and others on this forum is invaluable.
It can be done, you can earn more, more safely and have customers who are amazed at how clean and streak-free wfp can be!
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.
Don't expect to turn out work at a rate of knots when you first start WFP, and don't expect to acheive gleaming results instantly.
you can't just pick up a pole and be an instant expert in WFP, there is a learning curve to go through.
Ian.
I think that maybe you should have added this quote to your first post, that would have evened it out.
Jeff
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Just to show some newbie's how quick WFP can be, here is a link to Peter Fogwill's site, and it shows him actually cleaning windows with WFP, 2 clips on the page, one shows him getting out the van and and setting up, the other shows him cleaning 2 windows....
What you will see is the kind of speed you work at on a regular repeat clean house....enjoy ;D
http://www.window-tools.com/trailer-videos.htm
Ian
Ladders - re-read the above - it says ".... on a regular repeat clean house...."
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What that clip did not show was getting tangled up in the hose and the hoase snagging as you are reeling it in and having to walk back 50 metres to free it like this lol.
I will be taking more photos this week so stay tuned
Dave
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also dont forget this
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I just hope that he is a £2.50 merchant, because that is all its worth if you clean windows like that. :o
Yes spot on with the price but that was 20 years ago.
As for not many wfp window cleaners going back to trad on domestics, all the window cleaners that I know in my area, and I can think of at least 6, have gone back to mainly trad on domestics, and use the wfp for commercial and conservatory roofs ect. Also I have read about others on other less biased forums, also going back to trad. :P
What I don't understand is if it is good enough for commercial how is it not good enough for domestic? Do you do your commercial cleaning at a lower standard to your domestic?
If the answer is yes which it must be, then that is not very professional.
Peter Fogwill
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Nice pics Dave ;)
There are many hassles with WFP, it's one of the reasons why Squeaky would not be able to cope with it
Problems with pumps, batteries, hose connecters, blockages, filters, membranes, resin, dog poo and so on.
I never even try to sell the system to Squeaks, its just too complex for him to get his head around, too many things to go wrong and stress him out.
But just to remind everyone, this thread was about how quick you can work with WFP. and a simple demonstration of it in action ;)
but you'll never get me going back to the 'simplicity' of ladder again!
Ian
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Well said Ian.
Wfp does have hassles that come with it, along with costs but in my opinion the pros well out way the cons, for me there is no way im going back to ladders.
Squeaky, for me & many others its for us, wfp has transformed work, i hated wc & was going to jack it in. I respect you for sticking to trad, it goes both ways. ;)
Macc
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has anyone else noticed how squeeky is often very quick to say that people on the forum try and change all the trad threads into trad v wfp debates? Well guess what he's done with this thread?
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I don't think I will be travelling to Scotland or anywhere else to have a lesson in window cleaning by someone who cleans them like that. I have far more pride in my work than to turn up looking very scruffy, splash a bit of water about and give it one pass of the brush, no rinsing, and not even touch the frames or sills! >:( I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature >:(
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.
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hmmm
All I seen was a simple comment off squeeky regarding the speed of the guy in the video.
I think you should all grow up and stop persecuting Squeeky for having a different view point.
from what he has seen he wants to stick to trad and has seen the hassle of wfp so good luck to him.
Is he not entitled to his own opinions.
All this reminds me of the school bullys, bullying people because they were different.
Dave
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Well said Dave :)
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Peter
Here in Cornwall you DO have to give the windows that extra scrub and rinse, i have been caught out too many times by windows that look clean initially only to find out later they were full of salt spray.
You can not always see it from the ground, anyone in a coastal town will tell you the same, they will also tell you seagull mess can be well and truly stuck and can take up to a couple of minutes to remove off each pane.
None of my windows are any where clean when i return to them after a month, they are either full of salt , bird muck , traffic dirt or snail trails so extra attention is always required
Dave
Well said. I am on the coast in the Watchet - Minehead area and the stuff on the windows is more like glue and if it doesnt come in off the sea it comes off Exmoor.
I'm soon to be into WFP and trad but am getting worried the wfp wont cope unless I have gallons of water available for scrubbing and rinsing.
JohnL
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John
Wfp will work, not as fast as the vid, but you will get good results if you apply yourself correctly.
I live in the worst area for wfp, facing the north coast, with the south coast only 5 miles away,along with thousands of seagulls and every type insect you can imagine leaving mess all over the windows, so if i can do it here anyone can do it,
Dave
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I don't think I will be travelling to Scotland or anywhere else to have a lesson in window cleaning by someone who cleans them like that. I have far more pride in my work than to turn up looking very scruffy, splash a bit of water about and give it one pass of the brush, no rinsing, and not even touch the frames or sills! >:( I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature >:(
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.
Groundhog.
Sad to say mate Peter knows more about wfp than us two put together & thats not even the start of what he knows.
If i had the chance of working along side some one with knowledge like that for a day, i would. I think it may be something i ask soon.
Macc
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You would think you would be desperate to get out there with Ian and see for yourself one way or the other. And if it did do a lovely job, you could buy a system and share in all the benifits that Ian enjoys.
Peter Fogwill
Sorry, but even if it did a better job than squeegee I still wouldn't want it.
Don't want the hassles.
Look at the topics around here.....nothing but wfp problems.
My job is easy, but rewarding thanks to the skills I've learned.
Why get a brush to do it for me, and go through all that bother at either end of the day?
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I don't think I will be travelling to Scotland or anywhere else to have a lesson in window cleaning by someone who cleans them like that. I have far more pride in my work than to turn up looking very scruffy,
Scruffy? I can't see scruffy, I don't see a suit if that's what you mean. Do you go to work cleaning windows in a suit?
splash a bit of water about and give it one pass of the brush, no rinsing, and not even touch the frames or sills!
I think you had better take another look, the frames and sills were cleaned, and the windows were rinsed. The brush travelled over the frames and the sills were cleaned with the water passing over it.
And BTW the customer in the video clips don't pay to get their frames and sills cleaned, that is an extra they now get with the WFP. And before you get on your high horse about how unprofessional that is, it is up to the customer if they want to pay to have the glass cleaned only, or if they want to have the frames and sills cleaned as well.
>:( I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature >:(
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.
Yes yes heard it all before. Some people have to stay on a window for a long time, not because they are more professional like they would like to have people believe, but because of their inadequate cleaning technique.
Like I said in a post on here years ago, why not spend your energy trying to make your job easier, instead of slagging down anything that may be a bit different to what you do now.
Peter Fogwill
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Well said. I am on the coast in the Watchet - Minehead area and the stuff on the windows is more like glue and if it doesnt come in off the sea it comes off Exmoor.
I'm soon to be into WFP and trad but am getting worried the wfp wont cope unless I have gallons of water available for scrubbing and rinsing.
JohnL
John, you will be surprised by the results. For a start you won't get as much dirt sticking to the glass as you do now, they will be much cleaner when you go to them than they are now.
Peter Fogwill
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Sorry, but even if it did a better job than squeegee I still wouldn't want it.
Don't want the hassles.
Look at the topics around here.....nothing but wfp problems.
My job is easy, but rewarding thanks to the skills I've learned.
Why get a brush to do it for me, and go through all that bother at either end of the day?
Thats the good thing about choise,
Macc
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>:( I am a total proffessional whether I am cleaning trad or wfp, and a perfectionist, I can't do the quick splash and walk away thing, its not in my nature >:(
And the reason that I use wfp on commercial is that some commercial customers want it done that way because of insurance ect.
Yes yes heard it all before. Some people have to stay on a window for a long time, not because they are more professional like they would like to have people believe, but because of their inadequate cleaning technique.
Like I said in a post on here years ago, why not spend your energy trying to make your job easier, instead of slagging down anything that may be a bit different to what you do now.
Peter Fogwill
Well said Peter.
Groundhog im not having a dig, but you could at least know the correct technique of how to use wfp, before starting all these flase and unjustified comments.
ProPole
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I was refering to the way in which they were being cleaned on the video clip at the start of this thread, there is no way that you can clean a window properly like the man in that clip.
Well, it's time for me to jump in with my size 10 boots!
I've been with Peter when there was no way he could have cleaned the windows properly. He was giving me a demonstration before my purchase of his trolley system, over three years ago. That was when he was still "on the tools" and not fully into manufacturing systems as he is now.
My demo was given, not on his own house or at a neighbour's round the corner, but at one of his commercial customers . . . http://www.macdonaldhotels.co.uk/houstounhouse/index.htm?ac=ggppc1 a VERY upmarket hotel! They were cleaned in exactly the method shown, and I have to admit that I thought "What? Is that it?" but it was a regular job on well-maintained windows and frankly that's all they need.
The quality of the customer reflects on Peter's job, not the other way around - do you REALLY think a business of that stature would stand for having a slap-dash end result to reflect on it's reputation? Of course not!
I'm not here to promote trad v wfp - I use ladders, wf pole, extension pole, microfibre - whatever is best for the job at hand. Just like people, it's different strokes for different folks, and getting yourself all het up about pixels on a screen just detracts from everyone else's quality of life on the boards.
Love and Peace, man.
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Propole I know how to wipe a window with a brush on a stick, and anyone who thinks that Peter is using good technique in that clip needs their eyes tested :o
You know nothing about me or my techniques, but I can assure you that I always do everything correctly when it comes to window cleaning, my reputation has been built by word of mouth, and I have a whole stack of letters at home saying that I do a great job. ;D
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.
Don't expect to turn out work at a rate of knots when you first start WFP, and don't expect to acheive gleaming results instantly.
you can't just pick up a pole and be an instant expert in WFP, there is a learning curve to go through.
Ian.
I think that maybe you should have added this quote to your first post, that would have evened it out.
Jeff
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I think you will have to agree that if you brush over the glass once it will not be as clean as if you brush it 2 or 3 times, common sense really ;)
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I've been following this thread with interest.
One thing we go by is what the customer says about wfp and while some customers may be old moaners, some can actually make valid judgements.
Some of it is that they think 'splashing water from a brush' can never be as good as trad methods regardless of the end result and some don't care provided the real grime is gone and some inspect their window afterwards and some just accept wfp.
Putting that aside, what I find interesting is that this year we have picked up a lot of work from dissatisfied people who have had their windows done previously from companies or individuals who solely use wfp.
Bit by bit, like it or not, wfp will become the general way windows are cleaned. To me, that is an undisputable fact.
My point is mainly that we have only got 2 jobs this year from customers who were dissatisfied with their trad window cleaner but maybe upwards of 200 who were dissatisfied with their wfp window cleaner. Some of those are people who pay serious money to have their windows cleaned by any method provided the windows end up clean.
Considering that wfp around here is in the minority, that says something.
Whether it's the technique, the purity of the water, the brush head, the water flow or the rinsing, it does not matter. The complaints about the results using wfp far and extremely outweigh complaints about windows done by traditional methods and not every customer is wrong and not every wfp user is doing the job wrong. When is the evidence going to be accepted that by and large, wfp is not as good but wfp does an ok job and with wfp, windows can be cleaned that previously were impossible or too risky to do.
When it comes to commercial work where the standards are not so exacting, we have not had one complaint about using wfp but have not got one job where the previous window cleaner/company used wfp.
And, yes, we use wfp everyday as well as trad methods.
Also, a few weeks back all along the coast near here the windows were thick with salt. Some places the glass looked frosted. When it's like that we do all commercial jobs, as far as is possible, with a mop and and squeegie. Our experience is that with wfp, unless you use gallons and gallons on each job, the windows dry to a mess of streaky smears. By which time, you are long gone. Unless you've experience slimy salt on glass, you may not believe me. You need a clean scrim and fresh water for each job.
As for the speed the windows were done in the original video clip, they may have ended up perfect or ended up far from perfect. There was no proper inspection or any type of verifyable or provable analysis. I could have just sprayed a garden hose at some windows and claimed the job was done quickly to prove how quick a garden hose is. Sorry to be picky, but how does anyone know how clean the windows ended up?
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[
Bit by bit, like it or not, wfp will become the general way windows are cleaned. To me, that is an undisputable fact.
20 years ago we were washing windows with pure water , wfp has been around longer than that its still not a commonly used way to wash windows over here.Im not saying your wrong just that I dont think its indisputable,
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Ross,
I agree that WFP will become the norm for window cleaning at some point in the future.
I don't agree with your views on the quality of finish that you can get with WFP.
To have picked up over 200 accounts of dissatisfied customers is pretty damning though, that is huge, and I really mean a huge amount.
You are coastal, perhaps this has a big bearing on the fact?
During the winter a huge amount of salt was put on the motorways, I've done a couple of accounts that had salty windows as a result of this and they took an awful lot longer to get right.
But on the standard UPVC windows that are now in the majority of houses I would say that they come up as good or better than windows done trad.
And I'm constantly coming upon repeat cleans that don't even look as if they need cleaning.
200 accounts is virtually a full round for many, and for you to have picked up so many in your area then there has to be something else in the equation there somewhere.
If you have picked up that many, then others must also have picked up a huge amount too, as you say, WFP is still in the minority around your area, but it appears that no one is doing a good job with it.
200 accounts at what? an average of say £6.50??? thats £1,300 worth of work that is a staggering amount for one firm to pick up as a result of dissatisfied customers alone.
I absolutely do NOT doubt you, you have said many many times of the poor results WFP achieves in your area, and the fact that you have yet to see a job done WFP that you could say was better than one could be done trad.
That is totally at odds with most WFP users on the forum in other areas of the country, and certainly at odds with my own findings.
It just has to be your area, maybe beause it is coastal?
David@St Ives also has salt related problems and also says that he never comes across windows on his repeat cleans that look almost perfect after a month has passed by.
The one window that Peter cleaned took him 17 seconds, I'm forever stopwatching myself and standard casement style window takes me a consistant 30 to 35 seconds to clean.
This is a window in good order and not one with bird poo on or one that has borne the brunt of a lot of wind and weather.
for anyone that has not heard my description of a standard casement window, it is about 5 to 6ft wide and about 3'10" tall.
It has one small opening light, a fixed pane below the opening light and a tall opening pane to the one side of this.
One such as this in UPVC, including a full wash of the frame takes me on average 30 to 35 seconds to clean.
If there is a film of weathering over this, maybe a splash of bird poo, spiders and their debris on the frames etc, then it will probably take at least double that time to clean.
Were you to add on salt deposits I've no doubt it would take even longer.
In 2 and a half years I have only lost 3 accounts at most due to WFP.
Were Ross's findings the same across the country or the same in my area I would have to have lost a great many more, or at the very least have had countless complaints, and I have certainly not had any of those...
I'll draw my musings to a close...time for work! (trad and WFP ;))
Ian
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Good post Ross, I have also gained lots of customers who were dissatisfied with wfp and I am a good 20 miles from the coast. I think the reason is that window cleaners buy these systems after being told that they can clean windows much quicker than trad by the suppliers. They then go out and rush there work like Peter in the video, and the result is a very poor finish.
I don't think that wfp will become the norm for domestic work as the customers don't like it, not just because of the poor finish that some wc leave, but for many reasons. I recently took over cleaning 8 houses in a local village because the customers were unhappy with them being cleaned by wfp, and each of these customers had a wfp horror story to tell! From one lady who slipped up on a wet wooden floor inside her house as so much water had leaked inside that the floors were soaked! and another who couldn't stand seeing so much water being wasted just to have her windows cleaned every month!
Sorry guys but as far as domestics are concerned trad is here to stay ;)
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Guys especially Groundhog,
WFP IS NOT THE PROBLEM, it's how it's used due to bad salesmanship. Some
company's sell this product but do not show the operator how to use it, then
off goes the guy ending up with bad results and giving WFP a bad name.
Luckily this forum is great for people using WFP, if you notice not many are
loosing customers because they use WFP correctly due to all the good tips
on this forum.
If there was no WFP would we saying the squeegie does a rubbish job,
NO we all know it's the operator.
So lets stop bashing WFP or trad, they both do good jobs. I prefer to be safe
in my work enviroment this is why I went WFP, results are the same if not
better.
Lets start encouraging each over so we can earn more dosh in our pockets.
Cheers
Doug
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I think you will have to agree that if you brush over the glass once it will not be as clean as if you brush it 2 or 3 times, common sense really ;)
Would you soap up and squeegee more than once, if the window was clean after the first time?
Peter Fogwill
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Hi Guys,
what an interesting thread.
I am not going to comment on PF technique. we all have our own way own of working.
Salt on windows:
We have a couple of rounds in Sunny Cornwall, right on the sea front. We only use WFP on these and yes you do have to use a bit more water and your technique has to be spot on (no cutting corners) but with practice you can do a smear free job every time.
Alex
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Peter I always give the windows a good scrub, so I always get good results. How could you possibly be sure that the 1st floor windows you were cleaning were completely clean after just one pass of your brush?
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Peter I always give the windows a good scrub, so I always get good results. How could you possibly be sure that the 1st floor windows you were cleaning were completely clean after just one pass of your brush?
Experience.
Looking at the glass before you start. Looking at the glass when you finish. Looking at the window below, both before you start and when you finish. Looking at the glass on the house next door before and after, etc, etc, etc.
Just like traditional, experience.
Peter Fogwill
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Cant wait until Ive got that experience, I wouldnt dare clean a window that quickly at the moment
Saying that most of mine are intial cleans that havent been touched in years.
Alistair
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Peter I always give the windows a good scrub, so I always get good results. How could you possibly be sure that the 1st floor windows you were cleaning were completely clean after just one pass of your brush?
Groundhog, imagine this, you are cleaning the insides of an old folks home and you are walking from room to room. Not all the rooms are the same. In one room there is an old lady with plants on her window ledge. In another room the old lady has something dangling from her window attached to a sucker which secures it. In another room there is an old lady who likes to look out the window a lot.
Now as soon as you walk into each room you are looking at the window. Before you even get to the window you should know what needs done, and as you are moving things from the window ledge you are still looking.
The first room you know that at least the glass level with the plants and below will need extra work with the applicator, whereas the rest of the window may be spotless. You would give the area around the plants more scrubbing than the rest of the glass. After you scrub the area around where the plants were you would give the rest of the glass a once over with the applicator, then when you squeegee the window will be perfect. You should know it will be perfect before you squeegee, you don't want to squeegee then find out it's not, and have to soap up again.
Same applies to the other rooms, you will scrub where the suckers been, and where the greasy marks are from the old lady touching the glass with her head and hands. No way would you scrub every bit of glass the same, well unless you like working for nothing, or you don't like finishing work early.
Same thing applies to WFP work, if you give every window a good scrub just to be on the safe side whether they need it or not you are wasting time. Now it may not seem like a lot of time but it all mounts up. You could be earning more money, or you could be spending more time with your family
The customer is not standing behind you with a stopwatch working out how much you are charging an hour, if she is get rid of her. Most customers are only concerned about results, and don't mind paying a decent price for a good reliable service.
Peter Fogwill
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Peter that is Exactly how I clean my windows (but I'm still traditional) so applies to me in and out.
Regards
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I think this thread has been done to death.
For any further queries about WFP versus Trad, I think members should start a new thread; because:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/jesusthreadsucks.gif)
There's about six different threads in this one post.
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Peter that is Exactly how I clean my windows (but I'm still traditional) so applies to me in and out.
Regards
Yes, and it also applies to WFP. That was the point I tried to get across,
Peter Fogwill
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hmmm
All I seen was a simple comment off squeeky regarding the speed of the guy in the video.
I think you should all grow up and stop persecuting Squeeky for having a different view point.
from what he has seen he wants to stick to trad and has seen the hassle of wfp so good luck to him.
Is he not entitled to his own opinions.
All this reminds me of the school bullys, bullying people because they were different.
Dave
No, Dave - you've got me wrong. I understand that squeaky will not change unless something horrendous happens. What I do not want to see is guys new to wfp or considering wfp being put off from a lifesaving, life-improving way of cleaning windows.
I suppose tho' that if they read the threads for long enough that they can see for themselves the overwhelming truth of the matter.
Malc
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Aint it funny how we all have diffrent views on wfp.
Groundhogs blasting away telling us all wfp is no good on Domestic work, and thats from someone who at least uses wfp unlike squeaks. Unless Groundhog is the new Squeaks of the forum ;D
Tosh is in love with his backpack.
Ian Giles gives a great argument for wfp and backs his arguments up with a Scientific piece of writing.
Etc, Etc,
We are never all going to agree about the merits of wfp are we? Which is a great shame.
I did a new customer today. This is his story. He wanted me to call at his house. I had just done his sisters windows for the first time last month with wfp. She wanted me to clean her windows from a recommendation from another of my customers who His over the moon with my magic water.
He called at his sisters house the day after I had cleaned there windows. While having a Hearty Brew, he was looking through the Big front living room window and he says to his Sister. " What have you had done with the Glass in the front window?"
"What do you mean?" She replied
"You have had a new piece of glass put in, or it as been coated with something special. I keep looking and it looks like there is no glass in that window, I think I am just looking through a frame straight into the garden. You have had something special done with it."
She laughs and says, "Ohhhhhhhhh, Yes we are very pleased indeed we have just had them cleaned by our new w/c."
"Well I am Gobsmacked, I have never ever seen a window as clean in all my life, how does he clean them?"
Thats a true story I was told today by a new customer who was overjoyed that I was going to clean his windows with wfp. He was so impressed with it, He had told the neighbours I was coming today and I picked up another 4 customers this afternoon.
Its ashame to hear Rosseksava and Groundhog having problems with wfp.
But for me work is coming in hand over fist with wfp, and the story just told tells you my customers are happy with wfp.
I am very Thorough with my method, I will take a little longer then most, I dont speed through it, Bit I am faster then trad and as long as The job is right who cares if I am a bit slower.
Nel.
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I don't have problems with wfp, I just prefer trad! :)
I am not going to argue with anyone tonight as it is my birthday, I have had a couple of beers :o
I wish that I could buy you all a drink tonight, I think you are all great despite our little dissagreements :-*
ps Hostilities will resume tomorrow ;)
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My personal take on this is if you can get good results with either method and it works for you then fair play to all and best of luck.I am new and I do trad but keep thinking a wfp backpack would be an exceptionally handy bit of kit to do those windows that for trad are impossible or very difficult, ie bedroom windows above conservatories or the few windows that are just a tad too high for comfort on me ladder.
For me results are more important than speed,having said that I am getting quicker at trad all the time which is great.My worry re a backpack is its a chunk of money to dig out,also if it impresses me will I then be wanting bigger and better.
Having said that I know I can keep on going with me trad gear and do well.
Horses for courses and so on,chill lads.
Happy birthday groundhog,am going to open a beer and drink to your birthday mate! :P
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Cheers Captain Lard :) You are a Gentleman ;D
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I don't have problems with wfp, I just prefer trad! :)
I am not going to argue with anyone tonight as it is my birthday, I have had a couple of beers :o
I wish that I could buy you all a drink tonight, I think you are all great despite our little dissagreements :-*
ps Hostilities will resume tomorrow ;)
Happy birthday Groundhog, I look forward to some answers when hostilities resume.
Peter Fogwill
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Maybe Tosh is right.
Maybe this thread has been done to death.
Ok. To summarise.
Anyone who does not agree that wfp is better in every circumstance is wrong.
Pointing out the failures of wfp is not to be done because there are none because wfp is better and I agree. Totally. 100%.
Discussing anything not in agreement with wfp is boring. Lets talks pumps, connectors, tds, methods and all that exciting stuff.
I'll carry on working in my own way. I make good money.
I also consider the debate on the subject finished because it has already been done to death, as politely posted by Tosh, so any further discussion is pointless.
Different views, nope. Different experiences which mean nothing when the tide of opinion is against you.
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Well said Ross.
You're right.
I'm slow, inaccurate, old fashioned, dangerous, and un-professional.
I bow to the master(bater)s.
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Happy Birthday Groundhog.
I am about to get a glass of wiskey as soon asI have sent this post.
I will toast your good health. I like a good banter and I hope I have not caused you any offence.
Squeaks,
In my former trade I was a Master Baker.
Nel.
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Roger
I'm slow, inaccurate, old fashioned, dangerous, and un-professional.
Same as me except we use wfp also... but remember....
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the thread is running out of steam now :'(
It's been a good un' though ;)
Some of the debate has been good, regards technique and speed to achieve a quality finish.
Poor old Peter's method's have been slated, and all without anyone having the slightest clue as to whether his results are good or bad.
I feel a little guilty now for displaying his little demonstration clips.
People have picked all sorts of holes in it, what about bird muck, what about greasy windows, or salty windows, how did he get around the backand so on and so on....
Ok, I knew it was going to cause a fair few arguments, those couple of windows were cleaned very quickly indeed, but Peter read the thread and defended his corner robustly, he is a pro, he knows what he is talking about and I'll lay any money you like that those windows were spotless when completed.
I've never known Peter give false or misleading information, anyone who has had dealings with him will tell you the same.
can a window be cleaned that wuick and achieve good results?
Of course it can!
Take a close look at the type of windows he is cleaning, they are very straight forward windows, with very little in the way of frames.
Done trad the larger window would take no more than a minute, tops, providing yo uare pretty experienced, and some might even get it done in 45 seconds, but 45 seconds or a minute and you would be watching someone work very quickly indeed.
climb ladder.
Wet the glass with aplicator, just shy of the edges, not too much water on sleeve.
Applicator back in BOAB, whip out squeegee, and skillfully blade of glass, a quick pass with squeegee over the sill and back down the ladder.
Now if many can complete that window in under a minute they will be flying, were that to be video'd and shown in a tiny window, no end of you would be saying, no way, how could yo upossibly do a good job in that time, what about detailing? What about the frames? why wasn't the sill washed and wiped with a scrim? Why wasn't the glass scrubbed more thoroughly with the applicator?
Not many of us would be ble to clean that window in 17 seconds with WFP, thats fast.
Equally, very few of us (even after many years) could climb ladder, do window trad and climb back down ladder all in under a minute.
And anyone that thinks they could do that easy peasy in a minute or less....video yourselves and prove it!
I'm telling you that is a real challenge for the trad cleaner, yo udon't believe me? well instead of coming on here and bragging that you could do it with one hand tied behind your back....prove it!!
I'll allow you to have the ladder in place, but the timing starts from the moment you start to climb the ladder and ends when you are on the ground!
If you time Peter, it is 17 seconds from lifting the pole to moving on to the next window!
Don't come on here saying piece of cake, film yourself in action and slap the evidence on something like photobucket and post a lnk on the forum...Peter is there to be shot at (er....sorry Peter, my fault :-[)
Unless you are trying to race, you won't get much under a minute, oh, and should Turbo Terry read this....you are banned from competing!!!
so, can you clean a window of the same size as the bigger of the two windows that Peter cleaned in under a minute? (upstairs and under the stipulations I have stated)
Anyone can come on here and brag they can do it, what I want to see is proof!!!
so, die hard trad guys, or even WFP guys that think they are the bee's knees, I've thrown the gauntlet down!
do you think you're hard enough?
Can you walk the walk as well as talk the talk??
Ian
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Ian , have you been drinking?
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Ronaldo........whatever gave you that impression! ;D
First thing I did when I woke up was to check what I'd written :o
Having re-read it, its ok, I don't need to moderate myself!!
But the challenge still stands!! And not just for a Trad cleaner to prove himself, the majority of WFPers are also experienced Trad cleaners, some of them might even like the idea of having a go at that challenge.
This was never supposed to be Trad v WFP, but it is about speed, just as the title of the thread tells you, it has of course mutated into the usual debate, plus the usual Squeaky baiting (I know, it's fun isn't it? Rog can't resist responding can he? ;D)
But there has also been good debate on the subject, newbie's reading the thread deserve to know all the differing opinions.
Ok, I've added a slighly different element ot it in the hope of keeping the thread fresh, it is still to do with speed.
On a window in good order, that is the kind of work that Peter will work at.
So as a simple speed comparison, of a normal workrate that is possible with Trad would be good to see.
In general usage the WFP will be quicker, but lets see someone who can back up their claims of working fast Trad.....
Ian
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I just had a sneaky feeling Ian that you may have had one or two ;D
As for the challenge you me and everybody else on our forum no its NEVER going to happen, because we no what the out come would be ;)
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He may only take 17 seconds, but you cannot call that window cleaning and there is no way that a window would be properly cleaned if it was a monthly clean! :(
I don't know why people seem to think it is some kind of skill, as any fool could wipe a brush over a window like that, I reckon I could do it like that in 10 seconds if I wanted to, but I have far more pride in my work ;)
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Now! I don't know a lot about wfp so I wont make any comment on peters Techniques.
but what I will comment on, is I know peter is a very experienced window cleaner,
so don't you think that if he failed to do his job properly (even the house in the video) his customers would have been the final judge of his work? I bet he still has that customer so who is the better judge???
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There is a window cleaner who lives near me, he has been window cleaning for over 30 years, very experienced you might think, well I suppose he is, but he is well known for doing a crap job, yet he has hundred and hundreds of customers! how does he keep them? because he is very cheap, so people put up with the poor workmaship ::) Experience means nothing if you have no pride in your job! ;)
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Poor old Peter's method's have been slated, and all without anyone having the slightest clue as to whether his results are good or bad.
Sorry Ian, re-reading my post it appears to be a bit cryptic.
What I was saying was that I've been with Peter when he was cleaning an up-market hotel's windows in the same fashion as the clip. The windows were well-maintained, and it was a regular clean. The result was perfect - and I think he took a bit of extra time on one to take off some bird-droppings too!
Hope this helps.
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LOL,
This thread has been a classic.
It's something that is never going to be resolved. It is all a matter of personal perspectives from both window cleaners AND customers and i think everyone already knows this, it's just we all like to defend our corners.
I think Peter has had a bit of stick and Ian probably feels guilty because of starting this thread, but i don't think Peter's done himself any favours with the answers he has come up with, i think he's been a bit too aggressive to some comments made, especially considering he is trying to sell WFP. I'm in agreement with some of the other guys, i'm afraid that i couldn't clean a customers window in that way either, it just wouldn't feel right to me ( this is a personal thing and all of the comments in the world won't change this - its the way i am, whether it be a good or bad thing)
I also agree with some of the views about the WFP guys ganging up, don't get me wrong here it's not a problem for me - its just the feeling you get when reading through many of the posts on the forum, it's why i suggested earlier that it may be worthwhile seperating WFP from trad, they seem to be becoming two completely seperate subjects and whenever they combine in a thread, it is just becomes an argument.
WFP may be the future in many peoples eyes, but i think it's a very long way off yet, maybe not for the commercial guys but you have to remember that the window cleaners in this forum are not the only ones in the country. There are a HUGE number of window cleaners out there that do not use this forum and i think the vast majority will be trad.
If i'm driving around i may see the odd WFP but most of the window cleaners i see are traditional, nearly everywhere that i go.
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this is the normal state of windows on my round, this is a downstairs window on my house , it took me 52 seconds and when dried there were a few spots close to the bottom , saying it probably needed more rinsing maybe a tadge extra scrubbing and about another 10 seconds rinsing and they would of been perfect.
%2 seconds was the fastest i could do and that didnt include the time to set up and get to the window etc.
The window consists of 3 equal size panes , side by side, you can see the state of the windows before the clean full of salty spots and a snail trail at the top of the pane.
These windows were last cleaned 2 months ago
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Dave thats a shocking finish :'(
Do you need help ???
The times were pretty slow as well ;)
Open your eyes mate and lay off the Grog :o
Nel :)
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Phew!
This is a long thread to read, but one of the more interesting ones.
A lot of issues on here. It is rare to read so many relevant posts on the subject of wfp advantages/disadvantages. I've been away for a week.
This is good, don't delete it.
Pj
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Steady on Neil!!
, a snail trail alone will add 10 or 15 seconds to a window and a couple of 'tracks' will make it evem longer!!! (actually I think a snail trail is easier to deal with WFP, I hate the bloody things, but I also believe WFP is best for them, I'll save the reasons for another thread)
Salt deposits will also ad to the time taken to clean the windows.
A very honest posting from David,
With the snail trial and the salt, few of us would have done a better job faster....
Ian
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I can't post anything? All I get when I attempt to post is 'internal error'?
Odd? Those few words got posted. Maybe the server has reached it's limit?
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When I try to post what I wrote i get the following:
I can't work it out?
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This thread has been a classic.
It's something that is never going to be resolved. It is all a matter of personal perspectives from both window cleaners AND customers and i think everyone already knows this, it's just we all like to defend our corners.
Hi C
You get the same within wfp users! Trolley users defend trolleys, but those who started with them and now have vanmounts say that THEY'RE the best.
Just as if you talk to someone who's kid goes to a fee-paying school - they're shelling out lots, do you think they're going to slag off that school? No chance - because that reflects back on them and the choice they've made. Show one of these parents the school league tables - I guarantee you fee-paying schools are not ALL at the top.
The more honest/realistic amongst us realise that wfp is just another tool to be used for a particular circumstance - nobody can be 100% wfp.
Life goes on . . .
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Your right Ian wfp is far better at dealing with snail trails then trad.
But what is the point of timeing yourself to clean a window if you are not going to clean it properly. I cant see the point.
Removeing a snail trail just takes a little bit of extra scrubbing, You have to exert more pressure on the glass. I have the vikan brush head on my mini pole for this very reason, It slaughters snail trails.
It is very easy to see if you have removed a snail trail with how the water runs on the glass when rinseing. Remmber Dave as done a downstairs window, so I am sorry their is no exuse for a window not being cleaned correctly in my book. I would of taken a photo of before and after. Timed a full and correct clean of the dirty window. ( Sorry its pretty pointless giveing a time to clean a window when its not cleaned correctly) Then timed it again when it had dried out to see how long it would of taken when the windows we clean are not that dirty.
You are right Ian in that an average window takes about 30 seconds to clean wfp, Its amazing how much I was counting in my head last week.
I am sure Squeaks will have a laugh at Daves photos. It will give him ammunition as to why he wont ever clean wfp.
Speed is pointless if the results are poor.
Come on Dave do it properly ;)
Nel.
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Neil
Both photos are from before i have not posted the after yet , i will post that later.
It is very difficult to get a window this dirty clean in less than a minute with wfp.
The window was cleaned correctly , i scrubbed and rinsed every inch of that window, the same as i
do everyday and normally get very good results considering the state of the windows before i start,
I will post the after picture later
Dave
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here are the after photos 52 seconds and 2 days later
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I doubt that many wfp window cleaners go back and check every window that they clean after it has completely dried, but this is the only way that you can really be sure that they have been properly cleaned, yet with trad I know the window is properly cleaned as soon as I have finished it, the results are right there in front of me :)
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Valid point, Groundhog. No arguments with that.
Mind you, when I'm doing a big site, trad, I just get going and don't look back, I know instinctively that the windows will be good, I just don't bother checking. In many ways wfp is the same, on a big site I just get going and don't look back, I now know instinctively weather or not the results will be satisfactory.
But the truth is I am more certain of the results doing it trad, as you said really.
Pj
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Sorry to say Groundhog I disagree.
You can look at a window straight on that you have cleaned Trad and think its clean, You can then look at it from the side and see marks on the glass that you cant see straight on. You might think its clean then but if you look from below the window looking up at a tight angle you may see further Evidence that the window is not as clean as you thought.
If you are doing it trad you are not going to spend 30 to 40 seconds a window checking to see if its 100% clean, then spend extra time putting it right. Most w/c struggle to get the windows clean around Jan and Febuary, WHY? Because the sun is lower in the sky and it shows up any marks on the window, The days then are generally less cloudy then the last couple of months and it can be a shock as to how good you think you are.
No w/c is going to spend a vast amount of time checking his work. I check my wfp work every now and then, I only do it when I collect my money if the glass as dried. I will even do a quick check now and again when collecting at night time.
If there is nothing wrong with the frame or seals around a window, wfp will give perfect results every time. All my customers know they can pick up the phone if the windows are not perfect and I will put it right. It is strange how the phone never rings, but it is no suprise to me.
Nel.
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If there is nothing wrong with the frame or seals around a window, wfp will give perfect results every time.
Oh come on!
That's a ridiculous quote. ;D
Even the most keen of wfp users wouldn't suggest perfect results every time....
I know from witnessing hundreds of results that it's nothing like that really.
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Roger, do you really have to take things quite so literally!!
Neil is quite right in what he saysIf there is nothing wrong with the frame or seals around a window, wfp will give perfect results every time.
Oh come on!
That's a ridiculous quote. ;D
Even the most keen of wfp users wouldn't suggest perfect results every time....
I know from witnessing hundreds of results that it's nothing like that really.
when the seals and frames are good, then you will know full well that you are going to get top results Roger, I'm sorry, but as you do not use WFP this is simply not something you can comment on acurately.
Neil is also spot on with his observations about trad cleaning and low sun showing up your faults.
Get it right with WFP and these faults are simply not there.
I can take yo uto windows that when the sun is at the right angle you will do work with a squeegee that looks poor.
Check it an hour or two later and it will look absolutely perfect!!
I can show you account after account that will come up just about perfect everytime.
you certainly won't better it with TRad window cleaning.
nobody is perfect, no one is without flaws, we all make little mistakes here and there, but with both methods the job will turn out only as good as the operator that is cleaning the windows can manage.
Ian
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Please seperate the wfp from Trad. PLEASE
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Sorry Dave.
I thought one of the first photos was after you had cleaned them. The second set of photos show the glass as it should be.
Just ignore my comments.
Nel. SOS
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Hi Ian
This is my last posting on the subject. I did write out a long one last night and it wouldn't post so maybe that was destiny so to speak. I did also explain more about the ex wfp customers which numbered 148 not the nearly 200 I quoted.
Wfp can give near on perfect results. So does a squeegie with wfp water and a proper technique.
I know it's been done to death and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe. With wfp it needs almost perfect conditions. Decent frames and newish glass.
What about badly oxidised ali frames? Or ones with flaking paint? Or ones where the paint has gone powdery? Or when the water pours through badly fitted frames or through the flat underneath? What about grease? From hair? We do a night club and wfp doesn't remove head and hair prints on glass. The list can on and on. Greasy Joe restaurants and cafes with outside seating? Try getting grease off glass with wfp? I could give example after example by why bother. Wfp rules and does a perfect job. I agree. Salt? No problem with wfp. Traffic grime on a busy main road? I'm sure wfp can be used to remove paint also prior to repainting and clean carpets at the same time as well as wash indoors wall paper with no residue marks as well as leaving the ground safe and dry when it's marble flooring or moss covered yorkshire flag stones.
I'm certain commercial customers won't mind the walkways being left wet on a dry day or councils won't ever get to object to hoses across foot paths or pavements untill a few claims have become public.
The same can be said of trad methods but with different scenario's.
My point is that wfp is just one more way to clean windows and in my experience it does not do as good a job on the whole. It's does have inherant problems due to the amount of water used. It does a quicker job but not as good in most cases. Low sunlight or not. Powdery leaking frames or not. It does reach that hard to get to windows that most customers understood couldn't be cleaned any way.
More importantly, wfp will push down the costs of cleaning windows with wfp because they can be done so quickly. Or hadn't anyone thought of that? It's only time before the customer catches on.
Anyway, I'm not so bothered if every wfp user in the country disagrees with me because we have not only picked up business through wfp, whether it is by bad workmanship or the wfp system or not, but we now charge extra for ex wfp customers to do the job trad style.
I did my own windows this afternoon with wfp and they came up nearly perfect Last weekend I done 2 doors along as a favour and they came up awfull. I went over them with a mop and squeegie........... Same age windows and frames except my windows get done monthly but my neighbours hadn't been done for years. I used maybe 100 ltrs as the amount of water didn't matter.
This is the best time for wfp users to make money. It won't last. They make money based on prices for the job being done trad style and the time it takes to do that job trad style. Joe public will catch on.
So I think we have to agree to disagree and it's not personnal.
Cheers
ps I've added this later - and I thought last nights attempted posting was long.
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If the first photos were after i had cleaned them i would have hung myself by now lol
Mind you in the early days i came close but not quite, where i live i have to be extra carefull on first cleans due to the amount of salt which can be lurking on the frames as you can see in the first photos the window were only 2 months before thew last clean. Most of my work is monthly with only an handfull which are 2 monthly and i have only kept these to stop other window cleaners picking them up as they are bang in the middle of some good jobs and it keeps the door shut so to speak.
Dave
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I agree with most of the scenarios Ross stated, I do lots of shops and pubs, greasy marks are a right pain, and no, WFP does not like them :-\
Spend time scrubbing it off with WFP and you risk contaminating the bristles and then re-contaminating the glass of other windows for a while.
I have my applicator ready and will give greasy marks a quick scrub first.
Smooth floors?
couldn't agree more.
flaky windows?
Oxidized frames (aluminium or painted)
Totally agree, WFP will struggle on them, though you can often do them to a good standard once you master the right tecnique.
Powdery frames can be a pain trad too, as can those windows where the black rubber seal around the glass has oxidized, done trad those are a real nightmare.
I only have a few accounts (domestic) that I would consider high risk for WFP, almost all of them work very well indeed.
On the commercial front I have quite a few I do trad rather than WFP.
For me, WFP doesn't replace trad, it merely replaces the ladder.
I'll agree to a point about prices too, but only to a point, I think WFP will drag prices down on georgian and so on, the time difference is vast, and it can only affect prices in the long term.
On your average domestic account (a 3 bed semi) the time difference just isn't great enough to affect prices.
Those that think that just because they are quicker means they can charge less money will lose out in the end, they spend a great deal of money on WFP, their overheads will increase and then they drop their prices??
so they end out earning less or more than they were earning before (once longer term costings are taken into consideration)....they won't last.
short term prices may well be affected, but you will end with newbies thinking they can turn around and clean every window as fast as Peter does those two in the video's, they will get dumped, will probably give WFP a bad name in the process too unfortunately!
But once they happen on someone who does the work to the right standard (for the sake of argument another WFP user) Their confidence will be restored and they will be happy to pay a higher price.
6.30am....gotta get to work!
Ian
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So you get perfect results everytime Ian if the frames and sills are clean, but you never go back to check them, so how can you be sure? This makes Peters technique seem even worse as he makes no attempt to clean the frames whatsoever! ;)
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Now now groundhog, if you think I said then you did not read my reply!!
I'm happy to continue debating the issue, but if you are going to counter my statement, you must at least be accurate!
I can no more get a perfect result everytrime with WFP that I can with trad, but I'll do a VERY GOOD job everytime with both methods.
No one can lay claim to perfection, look hard enough and you will always find fault, very few jobs that any of us do will be 'perfect'
Now and again with WFP you will come across a job that you will not get right no matter how hard you try.
At that point I use trad, but I won't work off a ladder any more, access only for me now.
when I price up a house I always check the frames for oxidization, even some UPVC ones can oxidize.
If I come across windows that I think may be a problem I go straight back to the customer and explain it to them.
I tell them to check the windows over and if they are really bad I will come back and rectify, using trad on downstairs, but sorry, only WFP upstairs :-\
If the job isn't suitable for WFP I'll recommend Squeaks (I did so with a solicitors office, no way could I have done it WFP)
and so far I have only done so with two accounts, both very well priced I might add.
Perfect everytime?
No.
But a good job to a high standard almost everytime.
We can all drop a clanger with WFP from time to time, even the best of us....that also applies to trad too you know.
Ian
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OK, but I am right that you need to ensure that the frames, especially the tops are clean if you want a good finish from wfp, and as I said Peter makes no effort to clean them at all!
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Hi Ian again
I did say I was going to post anymore about wfp and I won't as such.
6.30am? And you have the where with all to write a coherant post at that time in the morning?
Hi Groundhog,
About the video, I did write this above but there is no way of knowing the end result. Good or bad - and that is the problem with the video. It shows half the story.
Cheers
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Groundhog I only ever do glass only, its faster and I charge double for the frames, it doesnt affect my finish. I dont usually even clean the cross bars(transoms ? ) just give it a min then do the lower bits if needed.
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THAT MAN AS NOT CLEANED THSE WINDOWS PROPER!
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THAT MAN AS NOT CLEANED THOSE WINDOWS PROPER!
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does that count as 2 posts?
;D
JohnL
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THAT MAN AS NOT CLEANED THOSE WINDOWS PROPER!
Oh yes he has.
C Senor, I don't think I have been aggressive at all considering what was said about me in the earlier posts. Have you read it all, even the personal insults?? Whether I sell systems or not I am not going to sit back and take that without defending myself.
Groundhog, you don't answer questions so I will disregard all your posts on the subject from now on.
Peter Fogwill
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Peter, don't bite!
When you take the bait, then you've lost the argument.
Sometimes it's better to say nowt. My Mother always said, 'Never argue with fools'!
That's why I don't get into any WFP discussions with Squeaky!
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Peter,
I have read all this thread, but not tonight!
I would say at this juncture: If you are going to post a moving presentation of cleaning a window with wfp, and I'm sure you meant to be nothing but helpful, you have to accept you are setting yourself up as a target!
Regardless of how you try to defend the reasons for putting it there in the first place.
Your intentions, no matter how noble, may be interpreted however others perceive them.
I'm sure your main intention was to sell systems! No criticism meant. If you help, that's a bonus.
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Peter,
As for Tosh......
Weeelllll, the Japs only ever imitated their masters ;)
Posted by Tosh:
Sometimes it's better to say nowt. My Mother always said, 'Never argue with fools'!
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Peter,
I have read all this thread, but not tonight!
I would say at this juncture: If you are going to post a moving presentation of cleaning a window with wfp, and I'm sure you meant to be nothing but helpful, you have to accept you are setting yourself up as a target!
Regardless of how you try to defend the reasons for putting it there in the first place.
Your intentions, no matter how noble, may be interpreted however others perceive them.
I'm sure your main intention was to sell systems! No criticism meant. If you help, that's a bonus.
I have set myself up as a target and not for the first time, not because I have posted a couple of videos on my website, but because the windows were cleaned faster than what most people can clean them themselves.
I stand by everything that is written on my site, and would also like to draw attention to the quote under the video clips which states...........
"The purpose of these videos is to show exactly how long it can take to do a couple of windows with the trailer system. How much time the window cleaner takes to clean such windows is up to them, some window cleaners may spend more time rinsing or thoroughly going over the frames, again that is up to the individual window cleaner. These videos were also taken before the launch of the new Autobrush. The Autobrush makes for even easier window cleaning."
A few people on here know that it is very feasible that they particular windows could be and probably were cleaned very satisfactory with the method adopted on the video clips, and in the time that it took to clean them.
A newbie coming on here can make up his or her own mind who to believe on this subject, and I have no worries about the outcome of that.
I suppose that the clips were put on my site in the first place to help promote certain items and I have never said otherwise. They do show though how quick you can clean a couple of windows with a water fed pole.
For me this has been one of the best posts I have been involved in for a long time, and I thank Ian for starting this off.
Peter Fogwill
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I have just been reading the recent posts from this thread http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=19609.60
Now some of the times being quoted on the Concept 2o WFP systems is much the same as the times I cleaned the windows on my video clips. Mike mentions 10 houses being cleaned in half an hour and dosn't doubt that this can be done. Now 10 houses would = around 100 windows, and I take it that is 2 men working. Now I make that each man cleaning around 50 windows in half an hour, much the same as I was doing in the video when you take into account adjusting the pole and moving round the house.
Is the guys doing demo's for Concept 2o cleaning the windows properly? are they unprofessional?
I doubt it if they are showing prospective clients what the system can do. I am sure like me they would have left the windows spotless. I know it can be done properly in the times quoted with my systems, and any other water fed pole systems.
Peter Fogwill
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I know I was not going to write anymore but......
I just cannot believe windows would end up 100% clean and spotless that quickly. Maybe if they were all but clean to start with.
I'm not saying it is not so, I am saying that based on my own experience, I don't believe it.
So in every case windows can be cleaned that fast?
I don't intend to sound rude and I'm not 'having a go' but......
I just don't believe it.
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I don't believe it either!! ;)
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Jeff I am dissapointed, I thought that you were a window cleaner not a glass scrubber!!!!!!! :o
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Hi Ross, you talk a lot of sense mate ;)
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I know I was not going to write anymore but......
I just cannot believe windows would end up 100% clean and spotless that quickly. Maybe if they were all but clean to start with.
I'm not saying it is not so, I am saying that based on my own experience, I don't believe it.
So in every case windows can be cleaned that fast?
So you are agreeing that they could be spotless in that time, if they were all but clean to start with? No one has ever said every case, these are all but clean, regularly cleaned windows. In this particular case the windows got what they needed.
I don't intend to sound rude and I'm not 'having a go' but......
I just don't believe it.
You do believe it if they were all but clean to start with which they were because they were regularly cleaned windows.
Peter Fogwill
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I have just been reading the recent posts from this thread http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=19609.60
Now some of the times being quoted on the Concept 2o WFP systems is much the same as the times I cleaned the windows on my video clips. Mike mentions 10 houses being cleaned in half an hour and dosn't doubt that this can be done. Now 10 houses would = around 100 windows, and I take it that is 2 men working. Now I make that each man cleaning around 50 windows in half an hour, much the same as I was doing in the video when you take into account adjusting the pole and moving round the house.
Is the guys doing demo's for Concept 2o cleaning the windows properly? are they unprofessional?
I doubt it if they are showing prospective clients what the system can do. I am sure like me they would have left the windows spotless. I know it can be done properly in the times quoted with my systems, and any other water fed pole systems.
Peter Fogwill
Hi Peter
I was going to leave you to deal with this topic on your own on the basis that if you're going to get free advertising then you deserve to work for it ;) but I think you've now had more than your share of unfair criticism on this one.
It's a difficult one really isn't it. On the one hand there are lots of people that have been taken advantage of by certain suppliers and have good reason to be sceptical and yet on the other hand there are plenty of people out there cleaning windows at an incredible rate and earning a decent living. It was only 2 weeks ago that I was chatting to a guy who has now started to drop his prices because he's getting so quick at WFP he feels uncomfortable charging the prices he started with. In fact, his exact words were 'I often feel like doing a bit of gardening while I'm there as the windows take no time at all' I kid you not! (and I'll give his phone number to anyone really interested in talking to him)
I have absolutely no doubt that the windows could have been left spotless in Peter's video but I also accept that there are areas with more than their fair share of problems which may explain why some people find it hard to believe. I have a lot of respect for Ross's views and opinions and he clearly finds it hard to accept these facts and figures. Obviously a salty environment can make a significant difference to productivity in much the same way as the variety, access and frequency of a round. There's no doubt that you'd get a much different range of windows in Brighton as you would in somewhere like Milton Keynes and maybe, together, all these factors would be enough to make someone question these claims. However, there are plenty of people cleaning windows like this in most areas of the country.
By the way, 10 houses in half an hour is pretty exceptional and I expect the guys were making an effort because they were being watched but an average of 10 houses in 1 hour is perfectly reasonable for regular cleans on established and concentrated rounds.
Regards
Mike
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Believe it or not we also clean windows on a regular basis. Quite a few of them everyday. Sorry to sound sarcastic but I am not stupid. some of them are cleaned with wfp so I do have a bit of experience. We do none where we jump out of a van and clean just the fronts though like Body and Doyle.
Just by cleaning windows regularly does not mean they will be all but clean next time. Maybe around where I live is odd then? Windows around here get dirty after a while.
The video then was a bit misleading. So not in every case can windows come up clean in that time?
As most domestic windows are cleaned every 4 weeks, generally, and if there was no wind, no rain and very low levels of pollution and the property is miles and miles from any roads or sources of airbourne dust and dirt and was in a place where the natural geographic features produce zero air turbulence, then maybe yes, the windows would stay clean but for all the year?
If the windows stay that clean then why do they need their windows cleaned regularly?
As for 'no one said not in every case', the video implies the opposite.
I didn't realise the video was to show how windows that were already clean could be again cleaned spotless with pure water.
I though and assumed the video was showing just how quickly windows, as a general term, could be cleaned.
Maybe your video needs subtittles to explain things.
Also, what is the actuall point the video is making. It can only be either, that windows that need cleaning can be cleaned this quick, or that windows that are already clean can be re cleaned this quick?
Is cannot be both or neither? Unless the video is for selling wfp products without being, how shall I put it, 'exact'. If it is a selling aid, then be honest about it. I think most understand how sales get made and how when selling, what is what gets put in the best possible light but when making the point to those who have already bought and have the t shirt and badge?
I do use wfp everyday.
Hi Mike
I am not having a go. I am trying to diplomatically point out simple truths. For example and forget sea salt and all that, we do the windows of a large place 8 miles from the coast. It is on a busy major road next to a horrifically busy roundabout. Which is why the owners have them done weekly. They get covered in grime from traffic pollution. We have to go over the windows with a mop and squeegie first as wfp does not remove the grime.
Fact. Not fiction. No exageration needed.
I'll give you the address and when we'll be there and come and see for yourself. You or anyone else can do the place with wfp in anyway you want. I'll stand and watch. Every 2 to 3 months we have to jet spray the place. My point is that in perfect circumstances then, yes, window cleaning with wfp may be that quick but generally for most w/c's with a varied round, that video is misleading.
We do also do the windows of a large pub with wfp. 34 of them and they come up ok with wfp in much less time than with trad methods. They don't come up brilliant but they are of an acceptable standard but...
How many on this forum clean just the front of a house where you can jump out a van, with no obsticles or worries, and clean windows that are already almost clean? There is more to it than that. What I am saying is that wfp is very worthwhile tool for window cleaning but don't exagerate and then treat that example as the normal. In other words, be real and honest.
I clean a shop where I can do the whole lot in under 45 seconds trad style. Does that mean every shop is that quick? Maybe I need to video it to promote trad methods to show every one how quick trad methods are?
Sorry, but that is how wfp sometimes gets portrayed and often on this forum, wfp is everything to all men window cleaning. Lets just be real and then discuss this, that and the other about wfp. That is when people learn and not by perfect examples in perfect circumstance with salesman type spin.
When I get the time, I'm going to get a garden hose, spray it all over my windows, video it and post it to show just how quick windows can be cleaned with a garden hose. No further proof needed as the video is all the proof that is required to make it true.
Cheers
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Hi Ross
We could go backwards and forwards all day and all night. You could provide examples of problematic cleans and I could provide examples of easy cleans. You're absolutely right people need to consider all aspects but didn't you make the point in one of your earlier posts that WFP will drive prices down because of the improved productivity? Isn't that the crux of the matter? WFP is considerably quicker and therefore more profitable?
I think that's the point of the whole topic.
Regards
Mike
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Well said Ross.
I think the views of the last 9 pages have been pretty unanimous.
Nobody has windows that clean that there's no dirt to remove.
If that was the case the customer wouldn't want to pay to have them done.
If the whole house is taking 2 or 3 mins max, then I assume you're charging £2 or so, not £7 or so......?
If not, then how can you live with yourself wetting clean windows in seconds and asking £100+ per hour?
That's not window cleaning, sorry.
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I can't beleive that this thread has got to 10 pages long! :o
Can't we all just clean windows in the way that we want to and be done with it?
Andy
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Hi Mike again
One thing I cannot disagree with about wfp is the increased profit.
That is so true and I can only agree.
My point was, and still is, lets be honest about wfp. My point was not about profits.
I prefer honesty and truthfull facts. How can a downstairs window end up clean when water that has run down the walls from the upstairs end up 100% perfect?
A video that just show someone jumping out a van and spraying water over a window with a quick brush over?
That for me, does not show wfp in a good light because those who buy find out it is not like that soon enough. So many wfp's come and then in a few months, they are gone. But the wfp sellers have got the money. Sorry to be so blunt but isn't that so? I've lost count of the wfp vans I've seen over the years and then never seen again? That is how business works but that was not my point.
Hi Squeaky Clean
I just want people to be truthfull with no spin but I guess that spin is how things are now. Except that if I said to a customer that their windows were clean when they wern't then all the spin in the world means nothing.
10 pages means that there is something in it. I think?
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Believe it or not we also clean windows on a regular basis. Just by cleaning windows regularly does not mean they will be all but clean next time. Maybe around where I live is odd then? Windows around here get dirty after a while.
The video then was a bit misleading. So not in every case can windows come up clean in that time?
I thought it would be obvious that people would realise that the windows would not come up clean in every case. Nearly every person that contacts me by phone asks about birds dirt, and I tell them that although it comes off with the brush it sometimes takes quite a bit of scrubbing, and in some cases the water is best turned off while doing this.
It does say on the site "The purpose of these videos is to show exactly how long it can take to do a couple of windows with the trailer system."
I don't think that is misleading.
As most domestic windows are cleaned every 4 weeks, generally, and if there was no wind, no rain and very low levels of pollution and the property is miles and miles from any roads or sources of airbourne dust and dirt and was in a place where the natural geographic features produce zero air turbulence, then maybe yes, the windows would stay clean but for all the year?
The property is next to the road and they do stay relatively clean. Perhaps after a storm they would need more attention, but they were not done in the video after a storm, and they were relatively clean.
If the windows stay that clean then why do they need their windows cleaned regularly?
It is a well known fact that windows stay clean longer after being cleaned with a WFP, I have never heard of any window cleaner offering to reduce the frequency of the clean because of this. The customer pays a monthly fee to keep the windows in a clean state.
As for 'no one said not in every case', the video implies the opposite.
I didn't realise the video was to show how windows that were already clean could be again cleaned spotless with pure water.
I though and assumed the video was showing just how quickly windows, as a general term, could be cleaned.
These windows had very little on them that particular clean, just like they are more times than not. Just like 99% of the round was more times than not.
Maybe your video needs subtittles to explain things.
I don't think so, it shows how quick a couple of windows can be cleaned with a WFP. That is what it is supposed to do and that is exactly what it does.
Also, what is the actuall point the video is making. It can only be either, that windows that need cleaning can be cleaned this quick, or that windows that are already clean can be re cleaned this quick?
It is to show how quick regularly cleaned windows can be cleaned with a WFP. The windows had very little on them, but had they not been cleaned then that very little would accumulate.
Is cannot be both or neither? Unless the video is for selling wfp products without being, how shall I put it, 'exact'. If it is a selling aid, then be honest about it.
It does show how windows that need cleaning can be done that fast with a WFP for the reason stated above. The windows would need cleaning because the customer is paying per month to have the windows cleaned, and if the work was not carried out then I would not be meeting the customers needs.
I have never denied that it was not a selling aid, why else would something be taking up bandwidth. It is exact though.
Hi Mike
I am not having a go. I am trying to diplomatically point out simple truths. For example and forget sea salt and all that, we do the windows of a large place 8 miles from the coast. It is on a busy major road next to a horrifically busy roundabout. Which is why the owners have them done weekly. They get covered in grime from traffic pollution. We have to go over the windows with a mop and squeegie first as wfp does not remove the grime.
I don't see you as having a go, you are entitled to your opinion like anyone else. If this bothered me I would do what others do and just stop answering questions.
Peter Fogwill
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Well said Ross.
I think the views of the last 9 pages have been pretty unanimous.
Nobody has windows that clean that there's no dirt to remove.
If that was the case the customer wouldn't want to pay to have them done.
If the whole house is taking 2 or 3 mins max, then I assume you're charging £2 or so, not £7 or so......?
If not, then how can you live with yourself wetting clean windows in seconds and asking £100+ per hour?
That's not window cleaning, sorry.
But Squeaky, you clean windows faster than someone using a WFP how can you live with that?
The customer is getting a better deal with the WFP as the windows are not all spotty after the first rain shower hits the glass after you have left.
Peter Fogwill
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It's a difficult one really isn't it. On the one hand there are lots of people that have been taken advantage of by certain suppliers and have good reason to be sceptical and yet on the other hand there are plenty of people out there cleaning windows at an incredible rate and earning a decent living. It was only 2 weeks ago that I was chatting to a guy who has now started to drop his prices because he's getting so quick at WFP he feels uncomfortable charging the prices he started with. In fact, his exact words were 'I often feel like doing a bit of gardening while I'm there as the windows take no time at all' I kid you not! (and I'll give his phone number to anyone really interested in talking to him)
Hi Mike, thanks for the input.
I have people phoning me all the time telling me how much more money they can earn, or how much free time they have. But on the other hand you are always going to get people who will never be able to use a WFP regardless of advice.
Like I have said on here before there is a well known local window cleaner that can't use a squeegee properly and he has been cleaning windows with one all his working life.
Peter Fogwill
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Blimey.......
Obvious to who?
The prospective customer watching the video?
How about a video showing the problems of getting hose over a fence, rose bushes, around corners where the hose gets snagged and all that. Then finding windows left open etc etc etc. Why not show what goes on in real life with wfp? Why the rose tinted glasses? There again, I not trying to sell anything.
Phew...
How about a truce?
You sell what you sell by how you see fit and I'll carry on seeing things as a window cleaner using the end product after spending my money and not as a prospective buyer. I was a prospective buyer once also. I was shown a video. I was sold on just how easy it all was. About 5% of the video was true and that was what the salesman missed which was the profit increase. The rest was cods wallop. Window cleaning with wfp is anything as easy as that video makes out. That is the point you've still missed that I'm making.
Our motives are very different. Mine is to be truthfull about window cleaning. I am not selling anything in my postings and I have no other motive than how I find things window cleaning.
If I ever go into the sales game, then maybe I'll post differently.
You are in the selling game and I am not. I clean windows and you sell what the windows are cleaned with. We have different perspectives except that I am posting only with one purpose in mind, the truth as I understand it and not potential profit.
We see things from different view points.
So - truce?
Cheers
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Blimey.......
Obvious to who?
The prospective customer watching the video?
Yes, the customer watching the video.
Phew...
How about a truce?
You sell what you sell by how you see fit and I'll carry on seeing things as a window cleaner.
Our motives are very different. Mine is to be truthfull about window cleaning. I am not selling anything in my postings and I have no other motive than how I find things window cleaning.
If I ever go into the sales game, then maybe I'll post differently.
Cheers
The purpose of my postings was not to sell it was to defend myself. Like I said earlier I left myself open for attack by non believers, but it was not me who started the thread off in the first place, I only responded when unsavory things were written about me.
My motive is also to be truthful about window cleaning. I have been an active member of window cleaning forums long before I started selling WFP systems
Peter Fogwill
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My motive is also to be truthful about window cleaning. I have been an active member of window cleaning forums long before I started selling WFP systems
As in dirty windows can be cleaned in seconds?
Non Believers? This is not a religion.
My point is that wfp is that not simple and not that easy. I don't understand what is so hard to understand. I use wfp. I have experience of wfp. It is not what the hype says it is. Your video is misleading. Simple. You are a salesman. I am not.
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Believe it or not we also clean windows on a regular basis. Quite a few of them everyday. Sorry to sound sarcastic but I am not stupid. some of them are cleaned with wfp so I do have a bit of experience. We do none where we jump out of a van and clean just the fronts though like Body and Doyle.
The backs of the that house was done as well. Just because it was not shown on the video dosn't mean it was not done. The house next door wasn't shown being cleaned on the video either, neither was the rest of the work done that week or that month. What has the fact that the back wasn't shown being cleaned got to do with the discussion?
Peter Fogwill
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Oh.
So why wasn't the back of the house shown as well?
Or come to that, how about harder jobs?
Or why don't you admit the simple truth, the video is a sales tool?
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As in dirty windows can be cleaned in seconds?
Yes, maybe a few more seconds than was shown on the video, but yes seconds.
Non Believers? This is not a religion.
Maybe I should have used the word sceptics instead of non believers, but it amounts to much the same. The word believer can be used in a different context other than religion.
You are beginning to get petty now.
Peter Fogwill
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Oh.
So why wasn't the back of the house shown as well?
Or come to that, how about harder jobs?
For the same reason that the whole months work wasn't shown, there was not enough room on my digital camera for it. The backs of the house are just as easy if not easier.
Or why don't you admit the simple truth, the video is a sales tool?
I have admitted it at least twice recently. Are you reading the posts?
Peter Fogwill
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It looks like a busy road on the video, after 4 weeks those windows would be filthy :-\
If your customers are happy with that sort of clean then fair enough, but my customers expect a little bit more. ;)
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It looks like a busy road on the video, after 4 weeks those windows would be filthy :-\
If your customers are happy with that sort of clean then fair enough, but my customers expect a little bit more. ;)
Groundhog I said I was going to ignore your comments as you don't answer questions asked, and just butt in with a snide remark when you see something you would like to comment on. That's not the way a debate goes.
You can't know what was on that glass before I cleaned them, or how dirty the windows are after 4 weeks. You can only go with what they may be like in your area, and like I think we have all agreed on, the windows can vary from area to area.
Peter Fogwill
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Wow, you guys like to 'debate'
I've chipped in a bit on this one as i am curious about WFP. But i'm afraid that i haven't learned anything from this post except the lengths people will go to to prove some sort of point.
I am in total agreement with Ross, i see this as a poor sales pitch and it has put me off WFP more than it has added to my curiosity.
All of this, 'the video shows how quick WFP can be ' is a bit silly really.
It would mean that i could post a video of myself flashing a microfibre over a window in 2 seconds flat and saying, thats how quick you can clean a window traditional.
For me (and this is just my own opinion) the video here only gives a feeling of being 'misleading'
Carl. ;D
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Guys, some of you should really keep this in perspective, there have bee the , 'Ah, but what about bird poo? Won't do it that quick if there was bird poo on it!'
Or, 'What about the back, why haven't you shown that?'
Or, 'Yeah....but...no..butyeahbut what if the frames have oxidized?'
That tiny, grainy clip only shows what can be done, it isn't a lie, and it isn't misleading.
On a repeat clean, with windows very similar to that, ie, very spare frames compared to the thick frames of a UPVC window for instance, and on glass that hasn't suffered too badly at the expense of the weather, what you see in that clip is exactly what a skilled practisioner with WFP can achieve.
I've had cleans where I have had to dip the brush in soapy water to loosen the dirt, and then go over it several times to get it right.
If you have a flow rate of only a litre per min then you won't stand a snowballs chance in hell of cleaning at that pace.
If Peter had chosen one of the ubiquitous UPVC windows, about 5 or 6 ft wide and about 4ft high with 1 thin opening light, a pane underneath, and a larger opening one to the side, it would still have only taken him another 10 or 15 seconds to do...tops!
And only then if he was to work at my pace (which is almost certainly slower than his)
so please, stop trying to claim the job is crap when you cannot see the results, and stop carping on about the fact that you can't see the results!!
Even if yo ucould see the dried, fnished results, some of you would probably say that Peter had got his ladders out and gone over it trad to make sure the results were perfect!!!
I am going to do another speed post, more to do with trad really than WFP...though I had a result that shocked me.....
Ian
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Guys, some of you should really keep this in perspective, there have bee the , 'Ah, but what about bird poo? Won't do it that quick if there was bird poo on it!'
Or, 'What about the back, why haven't you shown that?'
Or, 'Yeah....but...no..butyeahbut what if the frames have oxidized?'
That tiny, grainy clip only shows what can be done, it isn't a lie, and it isn't misleading.
On a repeat clean, with windows very similar to that, ie, very spare frames compared to the thick frames of a UPVC window for instance, and on glass that hasn't suffered too badly at the expense of the weather, what you see in that clip is exactly what a skilled practisioner with WFP can achieve.
I've had cleans where I have had to dip the brush in soapy water to loosen the dirt, and then go over it several times to get it right.
If you have a flow rate of only a litre per min then you won't stand a snowballs chance in hell of cleaning at that pace.
If Peter had chosen one of the ubiquitous UPVC windows, about 5 or 6 ft wide and about 4ft high with 1 thin opening light, a pane underneath, and a larger opening one to the side, it would still have only taken him another 10 or 15 seconds to do...tops!
And only then if he was to work at my pace (which is almost certainly slower than his)
so please, stop trying to claim the job is crap when you cannot see the results, and stop carping on about the fact that you can't see the results!!
Even if yo ucould see the dried, fnished results, some of you would probably say that Peter had got his ladders out and gone over it trad to make sure the results were perfect!!!
I am going to do another speed post, more to do with trad really than WFP...though I had a result that shocked me.....
Ian
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!! some people will always be none beleivers, here endeth the thread, hopefully :-\
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I think this thread is getting stupid.
You rush the job there is a high chance you will make a mistake.
Taking it easy sometimes work out quicker.
At the end of the day its the quality that counts well it is to me anyway.
So who care how long it takes as long as the end result is clean window.
Paul
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Peter I think you will find that the traffic fumes produced are the same on busy roads in any area!!!!!!! ;)
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Just to show some newbie's how quick WFP can be, here is a link to Peter Fogwill's site, and it shows him actually cleaning windows with WFP, 2 clips on the page, one shows him getting out the van and and setting up, the other shows him cleaning 2 windows....
What you will see is the kind of speed you work at on a regular repeat clean house....enjoy ;D
I would just like to add that I have also cleaned the two windows faster traditional, not taken into account the time to climb the ladders. I had to design my own tools to achieve this though, and yes the windows were just as clean as they were after the clean with the WFP. It was harder work though, the windows didn't stay as clean as long, and it was more dangerous.
Peter Fogwill
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I bet it was more fun though! ;D
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I bet it was more fun though! ;D
It wasn't for the chap who was on the phone today, he was just returning back to work after breaking his back on a fall from his ladder.
Peter Fogwill
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true?
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I bet it was more fun though! ;D
It wasn't for the chap today who was on the phone, he was just returning back to work after breaking his back on a fall from his ladder.
Peter Fogwill
yawwwwwnnnn. Same old.
It also won't be for the old dear who trips over your hose and breaks her hip.
Then later dies in hospital.....
Have that on your concience because you had to use a tool that might make you a few extra quid.
At least we don't put the public at risk.
You'll be banned one day, maybe soon...... ;)
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true?
Yes.
I have had quite a few people on the phone giving a fall from the ladder the reason for buying a WFP,
the latest was the chap today.
Peter Fogwill
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I hope that isn't another sales pitch >:(
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yawwwwwnnnn. Same old.
It also won't be for the old dear who trips over your hose and breaks her hip.
Then later dies in hospital.....
Have that on your concience because you had to use a tool that might make you a few extra quid.
At least we don't put the public at risk.
You'll be banned one day, maybe soon...... ;)
I doubt it very much. In three or so years of cleaning with a WFP no old lady as come anywhere near my hose.
Peter Fogwill
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I can see the point though especially in todays Health and Safety climate.I t could take maybe one high profile case to get it looked at.
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Yup. This thread is getting a bit stupid but at least it is lively and that has to be worth something. The 'my gromet has perrished on my wfp' may be important but it's not as interesting. And before anyone has a go, I've posted a few of them myself.
For me, I am not interested in trad v wfp or wfp v trad. They are both tools to do the job and each has it's own place and merits. For me, the over riding positive point of wfp is 'no ladders'.
What gets me, whether trad of wfp, is claims about either of them that are not true when a single example is used as a general rule to be applied as the normal.
That to me is like a used car salesman with crocodile shoes saying 'this is a nice little runner' while rubbing his hand together in glee.
I had an online 'debate' last year with a window cleaner who claimed to do X amount of houses per hour trad style. It turned out in that case that what he claimed was indeed a fact and I posted an appology for all to see but he did admit that his speed didn't apply to every house he done.
My whole point I wanted to make earlier in this thread was to be honest. Cleaning windows in seconds to perfection is not the experience of most wfp users of which I am one.
If it was that simple and quick, then the whole country would be full of wfp users making money. This forum would not have so many questions about wfp. It would have died a death because no wfp user would need advice.
So, yes, I'm also fed up with reading wfp v trad just as I am 'fed up' with the rubbish that gets posted about the WAHL's and getting done by the customer or whoever if an accident occurs and all that claim rubbish written with little real knowledge on the subject but this is a forum for all to post on. In the end it is just that, a forum. It's not life and death if someone disagree's with me.
What I am not fed up with though is when postings about wfp (or trad) that simply just are either not true or are not in the real world of window cleaning.
Anyway, today the weather has been great here and we've done well work wise using both wfp and trad methods without windows being done in seconds by either method. We just done our job whatever the method and however long it took to do it well.
Cheers.
As I was reviewing what I'd written up comes a posting about falls from ladders by someone who sells wfp. Change the record please.
One thing I'm curious about is that wfp companies or sellers always hear about 'falls from ladders'. Yesterday we were down our local cleaning supplies and oddly enough, he'd also had 2 w/c's who'd had falls from ladders in buying wfp stuff. That brings it to 6 this week.
Another statement that cannot be proved? Why not post something that cannot be denied like ' you will never fall from a ladder using wfp'?
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I can see the point though especially in todays Health and Safety climate.I t could take maybe one high profile case to get it looked at.
Seriously though you will always get accidents dosn't matter what you do or what you use, you have just got to keep it down to a minimum. The reason the government stepped in with ladders is because of the high casualty level with people using them.
WFP hoses are on the ground, anyone tripping over it is not going to fall very far.
Peter Fogwill
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As I was reviewing what I'd written up comes a posting about falls from ladders by someone who sells wfp. Change the record please.
One thing I'm curious about is that wfp companies or sellers always hear about 'falls from ladders'. Yesterday we were down our local cleaning supplies and oddly enough, he'd also had 2 w/c's who'd had falls from ladders in buying wfp stuff. That brings it to 6 this week.
Another statement that cannot be proved? Why not post something that cannot be denied like ' you will never fall from a ladder using wfp'?
What makes you think it cannot be proved?
I don't have to come on here to get business if that's what you think.
The reason we hear about falls from ladders is the fact that we speak to people who are in the market for a WFP system, and while speaking to people we find out the reason why they want to buy one. The most popular reason though is not the fall from ladders, it is the case of a lucrative customer not allowing ladders on the work site for insurance purposes.
Peter Fogwill
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I can see the point though especially in todays Health and Safety climate.I t could take maybe one high profile case to get it looked at.
WFP hoses are on the ground, anyone tripping over it is not going to fall very far.
Peter Fogwill
Ah right that will sort out any problems straight away,the authorities will throw a claim out straight away cos the old dear/child only fell a very very small distance,forget the injury its all distance based is it?
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Cracking thread...
I have a van mount system wfp now but started out with one of Peters trolley systems.
The reason i got into wfp was a good contract i have moved into a new office with 40 foot curtain wall windows and they expected them cleaned every month.
Without the wfp i would have lost the job.
Outlaying at the time for the expense of the trolley system i tried to justify it by trying it out on my domestic customers with varying results.
I have now a balance of jobs where i can see that wfp is a wonderful tool but the majority of the time it lays dormant in the van .
It does work wonders on the bigger jobs but on round work it can be more trouble than it's worth.
For all the unbelievers out there i have cleaned the windows of some of my most critical customers with no complaints with the wfp but i still get flummoxed when i flick the switch and nothing happens.
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WFP hoses are on the ground, anyone tripping over it is not going to fall very far.
Peter Fogwill
Ah right that will sort out any problems straight away,the authorities will throw a claim out straight away cos the old dear/child only fell a very very small distance,forget the injury its all distance based is it?
I am not suggesting that any claims would or should be thrown out. What I am saying is it is very very unlikely that it could end up in a death.
Peter Fogwill
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WFP hoses are on the ground, anyone tripping over it is not going to fall very far.
Yeah, but you're missing the point.
You're endangering others.
I've watched polers drag hoses across pavements and nearly bash people in the face with the end of the pole. Also my mrs slipped in a wet doorway, so I've had my ear bent about it firsthand.
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I've had a blind man walk into my ladder and bruised his face. I have also seen a guy I was working with drop his applicator on a mans head in a busy street, just as well it was not his squeegee. A little girl in my sons class at school lost her dad due to a ladder flying off a van and hitting him while driving his motorbike. Like I said accidents happen.
Peter Fogwill
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Hi Peter
Lets just agree to not agree. Yeah?
Ok. Windows can be done in 10 seconds with wfp just like the video clip.
W/c's fall and die from ladders all the time.
What you are selling does not have a bearing on what you post.
I agree with you 100%.
I'm an idiot who runs a business and has got it all wrong.
Something that cannot be proved can be proved if the person posting says so.
I agree.
I agree 500%.
I've got bored with this. I know what is what.
Lucrative customers? Insurance purposes? Ladders not allowed. Yup. That is so. Yes. Sure. Absolutely.
Anyone who has dealings with companies for real knows a bluff when they read one.
Yes, accidents happen. Don't ever drive a car in that case. In fact, don't ever do anything.
Good luck to you.
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Hi Peter
Lets just agree to not agree. Yeah?
Yes no problem.
Ok. Windows can be done in 10 seconds with wfp just like the video clip.
W/c's fall and die from ladders all the time.
What you are selling does not have a bearing on what you post.
I agree with you 100%.
I'm an idiot who runs a business and has got it all wrong.
Something that cannot be proved can be proved if the person posting says so.
I agree.
I agree 500%.
I've got bored with this. I know what is what.
Lucrative customers? Insurance purposes? Ladders not allowed. Yup. That is so. Yes. Sure. Absolutely.
Anyone who has dealing with companies for real knows a bluff when they read one.
Yes, accidents happen. Don't ever drive a car in that case. In fact, don't ever do anything.
Good luck to you.
I could prove it.
Your playing the sarcasm card now, what next.
I am getting a bit bored with it as well.
Peter Fogwill
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Ok.
We're both bored with it.
Yes, unusually for me I was playing the sarcasm card but you were playing the emotional one.
Lets just agree to disagree? Yeah?
Seriously though, the 'good luck to you' was genuine.
Cheers
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For what its worth rosskesava I think you have spoken a lot of sense on this thread and you have been a credit to the forum.
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Ok.
We're both bored with it.
Yes, unusually for me I was playing the sarcasm card but you were playing the emotional one.
Lets just agree to disagree? Yeah?
Seriously though, the 'good luck to you' was genuine.
Cheers
Thanks for that.
Anyway I think the thread has come to an end, well as far as I am concerned it has.
On a closing note I would just like to remind you that I was drawn into this for reasons I have stated earlier. I didn't start the post. I don't normally post on here for the reason that I do sell equipment, and if you look through my posts you will see that I normally try and give advice without any ulterior motive. With this thread I have been drawn in, and one post led to another. I have answered all post truthfully the way I see it, and not just because I sell equipment. Believe me there was lots more productive ways to sell WFP equipment than spending hours on here.
Anyway good luck to you as well,
Peter Fogwill
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It has been a thread that has drawn in opposing views.
It has reached it's end.
Unusual though. Most just die don't they?
Tomorrow is a new day. Thanks for the good wishes and I can only agree that most of your postings have been to help. Strange how things go isn't it?
Yup. The end. Good arguement though.
Cheers
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guys I have read this thread with great interest and seen it develop in different directions, but the one issue that stuck in my mind out of all of it was squeaky
he is correct, these hoses are a danger to the public, and have given me great concern, ok commercial and large domestic you have the time to sign the area and cone everywhere, but on regular domestic streets I do worry about young kids and old people floating about, while you are around the back of the house
before a ladder was a danger to yourself now a hose is a danger to everyone
as we buy longer distance microbore to stop moving the vehicle as much the risk increases, and it is only a matter of time as to weather this method will be allowed to be used on domestic streets
I know this has hijacked the original post, but as I said this was the one issue out of all the posts that stood out from the whole thread
jinky
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Phew! :-\
I almost feel guilty for starting this thread ;D
Ross makes a good point about people making the claim of how fast this or that is when it is only an isolated example and isn't indicative of what the average window cleaner can realistically hope to achieve.
There have been occasions, and my starting this thread of the way I have is I suppose an example, when I have 'bigged up' just how quick WFP can be.
But to counter that I am also constantly citing examples of what the average window cleaner can and should hope to be able to achieve with either method.
I've quoted the 'average' window more times than I can think.
Done trad, your average, reasonably accomplished window cleaner will take 90 seconds to clean the 'average' window.
Done WFP this 'average' window should take you 40 seconds
This isn't a window that hasn't been cleaned in donkey's years.
It isn't covered in bird poo (not many are)
It is your bog standard, regular clean window done monthly.
Those two figures are your benchmark.
The average window is (as I described early, but will do again) about 5 or 6 feet wide and about 4 feet tall.
It will have one narrow opening light above a fairly wide fixed pane.
To the side is the taller opening pane.
This is your standard casement window.
David@St Ives mentioned in another thread that he timed himself at (I think!) 45 seconds for a set of patio doors......bah! I am going to have to open the forum in another window to check that now!
Slightly wrong!
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=25369.msg191202#msg191202
Her is what David posted.
an
I have just done some timing
here goes
All done by trad
Set of patio doors 55 secs
Window with 2 panes 2' * 3' 35 secs
All included a touch of wiping , no window ledges were touched during these tests.
Dave
I agree totally with his findings.
and using those two examples I reckon the vast majority of us will be quite close to those times too.
I always use the example of a standard casement window though, it is fairly generic and all of us know the window I'm talking about.
On that standard casement window, the 90 seconds trad or 40 seconds WFP will still take effort to achieve, it will still take skill to get a good result in those times.
but for any Newbie to either method, that is your benchmark.
That is what you can reasonably hope to achieve.
your average semi done trad will take you about 20 minutes.
done WFP it will take you about 15 minutes.
I think it is petty to carp on about, 'Ah, but what about an old lady tripping over your hose, breaking her hip and dying in hospital.'
There is the potential for this kind of accident to happen, but the likelihood is unlikely in the extreme.
Across the board (all trades and situations) there are thousands of ladder related accidents every single year.
where safety is concerned there really is no comparison between ladders or WFP, such arguments are total non starters.
Ladders are inherently dangerous.
A hosepipe isn't.
Now for me, safety wasn't the main reason for getting into WFP, though it did come into it.
The older I got, the more aware I became of the risks involved in climbing ladders, and of the consequences if things go wrong (for your health)
I was on the verge of packing in window cleaning, after 30 years of climbing ladders I'd had enough, I was 47 years old and I didn't want to be climbing the bloody things when I was 74 years olds (I'll never be able to 'afford' to retire, my pension sucks)
Good idea for a separate thread that....."What was your true underlying reason for taking up WFP?"
Mmmm.....Time for work, but maybe I'll start that one up when I get home!
Ian
Just read Jinky's post......Disagree, a hose across 6ft of pavement is rarely going to be a real risk!!
No time to say more!
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Ian you say hoses across six feet of pavement
why do suppliers sell a 100 metres on a reel if you are only going to use six feet
jinky
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Ian my reason for taking up wfp was because I listened to and believed all the hype eg your last post! :o But I quickly found out that is just what it is- hype! There was a piece on the news about a year or so ago, when there was lots of talk about ladder bans, I don't know if you saw it or not but they had a trad window cleaner and a wfp guy, they challenged them to clean an equal number of windows on the bbc studios. Guess what the trad guy was about twice as quick as the wfp guy! ;D
Don't listen to the hype! ;)
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Just read Jinky's post......Disagree, a hose across 6ft of pavement is rarely going to be a real risk!!
No time to say more!
Sorry, but that's just plain wrong.
Being a moderator doesn't make you right, and people shouldn't take your word as the final one.
It's just massively biased, and in this case incorrect.
There's plenty of comparisons in safety matters between the two methods.
It's just that I don't endanger others.
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Ian my reason for taking up wfp was because I listened to and believed all the hype eg your last post! :o But I quickly found out that is just what it is- hype! There was a piece on the news about a year or so ago, when there was lots of talk about ladder bans, I don't know if you saw it or not but they had a trad window cleaner and a wfp guy, they challenged them to clean an equal number of windows on the bbc studios. Guess what the trad guy was about twice as quick as the wfp guy! ;D
Don't listen to the hype! ;)
...and they also said "Unfortunately it means windows won't be able to be cleaned so well now"
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...and they also said "Unfortunately it means windows won't be able to be cleaned so well now"
But you've got to admit that WFP is faster though! ;D
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Err No ;D
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but on regular domestic streets I do worry about young kids and old people floating about, while you are around the back of the house
jinky
If they're "floating around" then they won't trip over the hose will they? ;D
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Oh dear Oh dear lets try to slag off wfp. Hoses theres a good one, next I am going to pick up Tommorws Daily with the Headline.
OLD LADY STRANGLED BY YELLOW HOSE
The wfp operator tried to come to her aid but he tripped over the hose and Knocked himself Unconscious.
Come on get real. More people are going to fall over uneven pavements then mobile hoses.
Has for speed wfp is faster on any house. I would beat hands down any trad wc on any property. FACT.
Some of us have got it and some of us havent.
Nel.
Nel.
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hose is thicker than an uneven pavement
jinky
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This is now officially the biggest post ever on Cleanitup about window cleaning.
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Some of us have got it and some of us havent.
Nel.
Nel.
What? The ability to sign your name twice?
Rog.
Rog.
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Shall we try a different subject ;D
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Seems you get bored with whatever topic.
Have you tried a different forum?
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Big question is why did he dig up a month-old thread to say that?
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Still, this topic was officially the longest thread ever on CUI.
It must have been interesting to some for it to end up as such.
2 200 odd read it?
Must be a seriously boring topic. Anyway, why didn't Bear start a different subject as a new post. Strange.
Squeaky Clean, I agree, why did he dig up a month old thread? Maybe he'll enlighten us. In a different topic of course. It will begin with words similar to 'change the topic'. Maybe.
Cheers
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If this is the longest thread ever, I bet I'm the last one to comment on it.
That should keep it going a while longer. If not, I win.
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no chance simon - I'll be her till the end (actually its more likely that one of the mods will lock the thread - Ian does it all the time, its his way of expressing his power and authority ;D)
(oh and he hardly ever gives warning he's going to do it either!)
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Better add something quick them !!
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The video did show how long it takes to clean a regularly cleaned window. Not a very professional video granted, but it was not supposed to be.
Peter
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Hi
Peter I did say having watched the vid that it did not look very professional and to be honest I thought it was a bit of a blag to clean windows that quick however it did get me wondering
so I put it to the test and as my round was upto date
Was I spending to long on easch window?
YES I WAS :o
so I take my hat off to you sir! :-*(sorry no hats off sybol)
I still can't bring myself to do it quite as quick as that vid but I am saving time so that eqates to
money thanks again
regards Grant
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Hi
Peter I did say having watched the vid that it did not look very professional and to be honest I thought it was a bit of a blag to clean windows that quick however it did get me wondering
so I put it to the test and as my round was upto date
Was I spending to long on easch window?
YES I WAS :o
so I take my hat off to you sir! :-*(sorry no hats off sybol)
I still can't bring myself to do it quite as quick as that vid but I am saving time so that eqates to
money thanks again
regards Grant
Hi Grant, glad to be of assistance. If it wasn't for people doubting the speed of the cleaning on the video then the thread wouldn't have made it past a couple of pages, never mind 13.
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13 pages.... I'll admit to watching the vids then reading the 1st and last pages!!
Never mind the quality of the clean etc etc
I didn't see any Warning Sign on the pavement for that hose! ;)
Personally, I clean with both trad-ladders and trolley-Wfp. I don't see how a van or trailer mounted system could cope with residential work. I'm sure van and trailer people get the ladders off on more occasions that they admit to on here :)
PS: I know this thread should really be put to bed... so ignore this... no need to reply :-X
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Hi CC, I've dropped my trolley to a car mount and 100m microbore. And for fiddly jobs a backpack. I no longer carry ladders at all.
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i am just beginning with wfp and i was also told to clean the frames, then the windows upstairs... front .. then back... then back to the downstairs at the front as the dripping will have stopped....
so on the video no frames were done, so dirt on the frames will drip onto the now clean windows?
and water will also drip on to the downstairs windows after he has left...?
correct me but its only what i see from the experienced guys.
gary.
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i am just beginning with wfp and i was also told to clean the frames, then the windows upstairs... front .. then back... then back to the downstairs at the front as the dripping will have stopped....
so on the video no frames were done, so dirt on the frames will drip onto the now clean windows?
and water will also drip on to the downstairs windows after he has left...?
correct me but its only what i see from the experienced guys.
gary.
The water will only drip down to the windows underneath, if you use too much water to begin with.
Peter
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Similary with ice on pavements, etc I dont use much water and dont find it much of a problem as the building itself soaks up overspill.
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What? Dig up 6 month old threads? ;D
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How times change.
When I first watched Peter Fogwill's video last year I thought, 'no way can you clean a window properly that quickly' myself, despite some agreeing it can be achieved.
Now over a year on from the start of this thread I realise you possibly can clean windows this quickly if you know what you're doing on regular, maintenance cleans providing you don't have to contend with salt deposits, traffic pollution, birds muck that has been baked on since the previous clean, grease, etc. Hot water overcomes many of them problems so it's even easier.
I wouldn't like this topic to re-start as a wfp versus trad debate because it has pretty much exhausted itself and most of the points were raised along with a few temperments ;D
Would be interesting to know if some of the trad w/c debaters at the start of this topic converted to using wfp like Squeeky does, although luckily he hasn't lost his sense of humour and still continues to bad mouth wfp or rather his customers attitude to wfp :)
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i am just beginning with wfp and i was also told to clean the frames, then the windows upstairs... front .. then back... then back to the downstairs at the front as the dripping will have stopped....
so on the video no frames were done, so dirt on the frames will drip onto the now clean windows?
and water will also drip on to the downstairs windows after he has left...?
correct me but its only what i see from the experienced guys.
gary.
The water will only drip down to the windows underneath, if you use too much water to begin with.
Peter
I think that is my problem, but each time I am using less, finding out what works and what doesnt is a very big learning curve
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The water will only drip down to the windows underneath, if you use too much water to begin with.
Peter
Rubbish!! If there's no water dripping down then your clearly not using enough water to do a proper job!!!
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interesting post at the moment can clean that speed trad and leave a very good finish on windows. can also keep this up all day.dont know for how much longer though age is catching updidnt think wfp could be done that quick a real eye opener.wfp deffinatley has its place.be converting myself in a couple of years.
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interesting post at the moment can clean that speed trad and leave a very good finish on windows. can also keep this up all day.dont know for how much longer though age is catching updidnt think wfp could be done that quick a real eye opener.wfp deffinatley has its place.be converting myself in a couple of years.
thing id do you wash the frames at the same time? wiping whem is not the same as washing them, thats why wfp are window washers and not shiners.
not knocking at all did trad for many a year ;)
just want to know what you do in the same time.
IaN