Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: craig jwc on September 11, 2006, 04:22:21 pm
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Has anyone heard that the "Banning working from a ladder" next year has been changed.
Been told by a couple of people whilst out working last week that they are not going to stop window cleaners working off a ladder as they aren't working off it for long periods of time ???
One person who told me works for some health and safety company which i think has something to do with my local council.
Even though w/c's will be working all day using ladders, he said that you are not up the ladder for that long to clean one window. So he said that this ladder ban has been looked at again and changed.
I use wfp and so i'm not too bothered about it, but wondered if anyone else has heard this.
Or have i been asleep and missed something ;D
Craig
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Craig the worst offenders for ladder abuse arounnd here is the council
gaza
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Graig
We have recently attended the 'Health & Safety Test' that is required prior to obtaining our CSCS cards.
Question 5.15 asks 'When can you use a ladder as a place of work?'
Answer 'If you are doing light work for a short time'
It would seem that there has been a rethink regards using ladders in certain situations
Common sense prevails ?
Regards.....Jake
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Answer 'If you are doing light work for a short time'
It would seem that there has been a rethink regards using ladders in certain situations
I questioned Philip Hanson, the editor of Professional Window Cleaner Magazine regarding this.
My point was that the 'short duration of use' okayed the use of ladders for cleaning windows, because you're only up them for a few minutes at a time.
I can't remember his exact reply, but it was something along the lines of, 'HSE would not accept this as a justification, since you're constantly up them'.
Mybe Philip Hanson could help out here?
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i thought the new legislation was worded IF there is an alternative to using a ladder then use it ::) ::)
ladders are the last resort ??? ???
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;D ;D ;D
Hate to say I told you so......but..... ::)
Unlucky those who spent thousands on an alternative. ;D
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;D ;D ;D
Hate to say I told you so......but..... ::)
Unlucky those who spent thousands on an alternative. ;D
And when your leg is in plaster ???.
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..and when your's is? ???
More chance you'll crash on the way to work.
Don't be jealous now.
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Here you go again squeek!!!
WFP vs ladders
You just can't help It can you ::)
You must live a very boaring life ???
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and just to support squeaky - what was it I posted on the other thread? why are they dragging their feet I wonder?
JohnL
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Hi Everyone,
The HSE will be releasing a new document soon on the working at height directive. What is contained in this new document, I cannot comment on at present, but it should make the understanding of the directive easier to follow.
Several companies and organisations have passed on their comments and requests for this new document, this includes the APWC and the FWC as well as some other organisations.
It is of my understanding that ladders at present are not banned and they will not be banned. However, you have to justify the use of a ladder (this is the grey area, because one justified use by one person may not seem justified by another). In addition to this and including residential properties, you must carry out a RISK ASSESMENT and METHOD STATEMENT.
Hope the above helps
Andrew
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Graig
We have recently attended the 'Health & Safety Test' that is required prior to obtaining our CSCS cards.
Question 5.15 asks 'When can you use a ladder as a place of work?'
Answer 'If you are doing light work for a short time'
It would seem that there has been a rethink regards using ladders in certain situations
Common sense prevails ?
Regards.....Jake
Actually this is no different at all, that condition has always prevailed, but of course although you may well consider that window cleaning actually constitutes 'light work for short duration' This is in fact incorrect, as Tosh says, yo uare up and down the ladder all day long every working day of the year...ergo, short duration it is not!
However, it isn't being directly enoforced, where domestic work is concerned its carry on as normal ;)
but don't kid yourself that it won't come along, break it down to its most simplistic form and it is easy to enforce, in most circumstances ladders are simply not needed.
some will say, 'Ah, but what about oxidized paintwork!' Well? what about it?
The window can still be cleaned to a good standard, I do several myself and you'd be hard pressed to do a better job trad.
difficult to prove you are working off a ladder when another method could have been and should have used?
Video evidence is childs play, and it only takes a handful of prosecutions for the fear of being prosecuted to spread like wildfire.
Accidents and the refusal to pay out, claiming non adherance to the regulations by insurance companies will also speed things up.
But as I have said, it's carry on as normal at the moment, it may be as little as 5 years away, or it may be ten years away, but as time passes the regulations will continue to be tightened up in little steps, and there is always another little step that can and will be taken.
That is only my own personal opinion of course, and personally it really doesn't bother me, working of ladders for over 30 years almost totally ruined my knees, I'm just pleased I no longer have to use them.
but for those that are happy to continue using them then great! More power to your elbow ;)
Ian
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If you read the rules, working at height is a 'last resort'.
What has happened that overides the rules?
Where's Phillip Hanson? He normally championed the anti-ladder corner?
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well its all becoming much clearer now!
;D ;D ;D ;D
( I expect that will be deleted by a mod as well! )
JohnL
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For the window cleaners that have not seen this
9 September 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/bb_wm_fs.stm?nbram=1&news=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1&bbram=1&nol_storyid=4231920
16 September 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/bb_wm_fs.stm?news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nol_storyid=4254988&checkedBandwidth=nb&checkedMedia=asx&subtitles=hide&alreadySeen=1
Andy
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Ladders will not be banned! Trust me! ;)
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ah well lads i will just have to invent escalator ladders, that will solve all the probs out ;D ;D
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In my earlier reply to this post, I quoted from the Health & Safety Test 2006 Edition.
This is an official publication by the Construction Industry Training Board
If they say that it is ok to use a ladder as a place of work, for a short time, then whats good enough for the construction industry is good enough for me!
I cannot see a window cleaner being prosecuted because he hasn't invested thousands in a WFP system. Surely, if you use a ladder to clean windows, and you do not own a WFP, then you have no alternative!
Look, if you were asked by a company to remove a label from an upstairs window, and the scaffold was down and no way of doing it from inside, what are they going to do? Hire a cherry picker for a 1 minute job or allow you to use a ladder for a short time, the latter i would think!
I think that there is a lot of 'doom and gloom' spouted about this subject, and I suspect, that when the dust has settled, common sense will have prevailed
Window cleaners will not be banned from using ladders! :)
Regards.....Jake
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The links that Poleman posted contains this text (Extract from BBC Newsnight)
The window cleaner on a bike with a bucket, sponge and a ladder might soon be a thing of the past.
The European Working Heights Directive has made the use of ladders for window cleaners a last resort. Justin Rowlatt reports.
A Newsnight report on how a new EU directive would stop window cleaners using ladders has provoked a furious debate.
Justin Rowlatt returns to the story that created so much controversy.
I saw both programmes and I've read the regulations.
According to the regs, working at height is a last resort; in the guidance notes, the principle of the directive is that if a job can be reasonably and practically performed from the ground, then that's how the job should be done.
I've not seen any amendment to the regulations stating otherwise, however I have read that the HSE do not expect every window cleaner in the country to purchase a WFP straight away.
I guess we have to wait for the HSE's new document, that 24-7 refers too!
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In my earlier reply to this post, I quoted from the Health & Safety Test 2006 Edition.
This is an official publication by the Construction Industry Training Board
If they say that it is ok to use a ladder as a place of work, for a short time, then whats good enough for the construction industry is good enough for me!
I cannot see a window cleaner being prosecuted because he hasn't invested thousands in a WFP system. Surely, if you use a ladder to clean windows, and you do not own a WFP, then you have no alternative!
Look, if you were asked by a company to remove a label from an upstairs window, and the scaffold was down and no way of doing it from inside, what are they going to do? Hire a cherry picker for a 1 minute job or allow you to use a ladder for a short time, the latter i would think!
I think that there is a lot of 'doom and gloom' spouted about this subject, and I suspect, that when the dust has settled, common sense will have prevailed
Window cleaners will not be banned from using ladders! :)
Regards.....Jake
Nice post Jake ;)
Thats how you do a reply that allows for healthy debate, (as against argument!)
However! What we do does not constitute short duration, were you the builder that wanted that sticker removed, the window cleaner you had asked to do so would be entirely justified in using his ladder to climb up and remove it.
this isn't something you can do with WFP, and it is only short duration, ergo, you are allowed!
Merely not having a piece of equipment is not viewed as justification for using something else, so not having WFP will not mean that there is no other way of doing the job.
However, my own argument is academic as no one is going to stop you at present climbing your ladders to clean windows on domestic accounts!!
I know we are all supposed to do risk assessments and method statements, but apart from showing you are at least aware of what you are doing, they are not worth the paper they are written on, the odds are yo uwill carry on much as you have always carried on..except now you will have a bit of paper with words on that makes it ok ::)
Quite apart from which, on domestic accounts both of them will be generic, and you will have one apiece that will cover you on all of your accounts....can yo ureally imagine sitting down and writing out 400 separate method statements and risk assessments for each and every job you have?
Ian
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I know this chestnut has been aired before but what about Painters & Decorators - nothing in the regs yet that MAKE them change their working practices except to ensure they are vigilant and careful at all times. P & Ds are up ladders for hours at a time so I think their must be some rethinking of the regs going on.
JohnL
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decorators are more hamstrung by the regs than we are!
Scafolding and towers for them.
scafolders are also hamstrung by health and safety too, they are not supposed to work in wet or frosty weather, according to a customer of mine who happens to be a scafolder.
Painters are not supposed to work off simple hop ups now either, it has to be a proper platform, with guard/handrails and kick boards all round...even for just a couple of feet off the ground!
Ditto sparky's and other building trades.
want to work off a step ladder? uh uh, fraid not, temporary work only apparently.
Want to be a glazier?
Well don't forget the scafold tower you will have to use to replace a first floor window.
A glazier thatwent to replace a single, small broken pane on a factory site was watched and then tailed all the way back to his yard by a H & S officer.
He was told that in future he must use a platform or scafolding, and that he must also use a suitable skip on site to dispopse of the hazardous waste (the broken pane) and that he would be prosecuted if he takes that waste off site as he did that day (and disposed of it in the skip he had at his yard)
This isn't hearsay either, was a few years ago at the Rank Xerox factory in the forest of dean (huge place) the job was for my fathers building company that built the place for over 30 years, and the glazier was working for my father.
We ain't the only ones to rant at the intrusion of H & S!!!
mind how you go,
Ian
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Other industry should not be included within the debate WHY well for a start we are a industry in are own right and have are set of own rules of good practice, and us window cleaners are different in that the amount of times a ladder is used in a day to climb to a window (100s) and so a higher risk that’s why most in the industry don’t like this short duration saying for are industry
Andy
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guys I think ladders will not be banned for a long time to come
however if you want to do commercial work then you might find companies not allowing you onsite with ladders, just to keep themselves in tic with the h@se
and the work would go to companies setup with wfp
on domestic does anyone care
just my thoughts
jinky
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Ian - I'm not going to get into a long debate with you and posting copies of the P & Ders HSE advice sheets to back up my comments, there is nothing new posted in the last 6 months re WAH about P & Ders being hamstrung by regs!
Other than covering all the safety factors ensuring ladders are set correctly etc etc there are no restrictions.
However if you are an employee the company responsible for safety will be more carefull and resolute about safety issues.
JohnL
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John,
I was talking about the perception we all tend to have of of H & S.
I am also correct in all I have stated too, those are not extreme cases, you do have to have proper platforms to work off inside.
On one account that I was doing the initial clean on (an office) The electricians were moaning because a health and safety officer had threatened to close the site down if they did not use the proper platforms I described, as against working off their step ladders.
The problem with the reams and reams of regulations is that you can use them to highlight whatever point you wish to make...it's all there in black and white innit'?
As window cleaners we fall foul of muddled regulations, they haven't been clarified at all.
If they say a ladder should only be used as a last resort, then they should enforce it.
to my personal way of thinking thats easy and really cuts down on the grey areas too.
At the moment of course, where the window cleaner is concerned they cannot really enforce it, at least not for the individual trader working on domestic accounts.
different on commercial sites of course.
But the uptake of WFP will make that an easier decision for them to take in a few years time.
Two years ago this forum almost all about Traditional window cleaning, the take up of WFP has been huge.
Within ten years do you seriously think that window cleaning off ladders will be the norm?
The industry is undergoing a massive change due to this new tool, there will come a point when the virtual ban of ladders will no longer be unviable.
There will always be jobs when it will be impractical for them to be done in any other way other than off a ladder, but those are generally few and far between.
time I hit the sack!
Ian
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www.ladders-blma.co.uk
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and that is one of the problems
governments and regulatory bodies just see an empty pit of money other people will have to shell out.
the only thing to shell out in the long term will be on the ever increasing unemployed because of stupid regs!
JohnL
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John,
But the uptake of WFP will make that an easier decision for them to take in a few years time.
Two years ago this forum almost all about Traditional window cleaning, the take up of WFP has been huge.
Within ten years do you seriously think that window cleaning off ladders will be the norm?
Yes, almost certainly.
The take-up of wfp by forum members has been big, as they've pushed each other into it, and people want to have what the others have.
Most window cleaners I've spoke to (not forum members) aren't interested in it.
Away from the forum members wfp is rare.
8 or 9 out of ten w/c'ers you see use a squeegee.
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I can see that a lot of people here have a very limited H+S knowledge. Cost is a factor in H+S law, every job on the planet can be made safer if money wasn't an issue. Window Cleaners will always be able to argue that paying £5000+ for a WFP system to do Mrs Jones 3 window terraced house is unreasonable. So the 'risk' of doing it with a ladder is seen by the HSE as 'justifiable'. This will always be the case like it or not.
I'm not up on the Regs but i know it dosen't cost that much to set up a wfp.
My 1st set up cost me around £300.
I have added to it know and must have spent between £2000 - £2500.
So the initial set up isn't that costly.
To be honest i only went WFP not because of the REgs, but it is a safer method of working and my safety comes before anything. I won't and can't put a value in ££ on my life.
I can't see them banning ladders completely, but resticting there use YES.
I only use a ladder now maybe twice a month just to gain access onto a balcony, and i think this is where the use of ladders will go.
This is only my thoughts
Craig
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Spot on Craig, totally agree with you. ;)
Ian