Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: david68 on August 31, 2006, 06:11:10 pm
-
Hi
Just wondering if any one tried WFP and then returned back to Traditional method.
I have used the Freedom Trolley today for first time and had bad results for me first clean.
Also i thinking is the pole harder work than going up a ladder.
So just wondering if people had returned back to trad?
Dave
-
after one day?
JohnL
-
Hi
Just wondering if any one tried WFP and then returned back to Traditional method.
I have used the Freedom Trolley today for first time and had bad results for me first clean.
Also i thinking is the pole harder work than going up a ladder.
So just wondering if people had returned back to trad?
Dave
I did think about it early on. I'm so glad I didn't though. I much prefer working with WFP. Once those first/second cleans are out of the way you shouldn't have too much trouble.
-
after one day?
JohnL
No John i will give it longer than one day, but was just wondering for those after months or years of wfp.
I also have consider this method seriously due to having cancer in my kneck and it will re return as it is not cureable.
But i would like to continue with the new methods but i just need to believe in this method and learn how to make this system work for me.
Dave
-
My first month was a NIGHTMARE!!!!
I hated it and really thought I had brought a dud one, wasted £1600 for a system that I could see lasting no longer than my patience with it. Bad results, bad response from the customers, you name it and it happened.
However, nearly 2 years on and with my 3rd van on the way I am delighted to say after getting some help and advice, learning how to use it properly I have never looked back and love it.
I still have jobs that we do trad but on the whole its a great tool to have at your disposal.
Stick at it and get some hands on help, it's worth its weight in gold.
Best wishes,
Trev
-
david68 - take care mate - in all ways
JohnL
-
Dave,
I'm no fan of the Freedom Trolley, because I think it's big, bulky, overpriced and has been mis-sold to users who it's not suitable for.
Anyway, what're you doing?
Tops only or 100% WFP?
If you're using it as a trolley system I'd recommend 'tops only', but if you're using it as a van-mounted system, then do 100% with it.
That apart, you've got to go over the top on first cleans, especially when you don't know what you're really doing.
If you do the following; you'll get good results:
1. Wash the frames REALLY well.
2. Rinse the frames.
3. Work on the glass; you don't have to go overboard; just wash it twice quickly.
4. Move onto the next window repeating the process untill all the windows are cleaned.
5. Return to your first window and rinse the GLASS only.
The thinking behind this is:
It's very easy to clean glass, especially the 'sheeting' sort with a WFP (the beading sort cleans well too mind), it's the top frame that generally lets you down and drips dirty water over your windows.
So by cleaning all the frames and windows first, then returning to the first window you've cleaned to rinse the GLASS only, you've bypassed all the drips.
It is a pain, I know, but this will produce good results and subsequent cleans will be much easier; less fannying about.
I hope this helps, but ANYONE, correct me if you know a better method. I've only been using a WFP for a year; doing tops only mostly; so I'm no 'WFP Guru'.
I'm quite happy to be 'taught' by those who're more skilled than myself.
-
The system works. Its the confidence in the product thats the problem, you just have to take a blind leap of faith. You will worry if its a waste of money, If you will lose a lot of your customer base. Plus the big one .Is it as good as Trad ? Will I like w/c with it?
The answer to the last 2 questions is Yes and Yes.
It will be the best investment you will make in w/c. You wont think that to begin with but in 4 months of useing wfp you will never go back to being just a trad w/c.
If I had borrowed someones wfp system for a week to try it, I know I would of stayed Trad because I hated, detested wfp for about 8 weeks. then like the love of a good woman it started to grow on me.
Nel.
-
I was thinking of looking for new work where ladders are hard to get at the right angle.
So these people would love me wfp trolley.
Then when have the skill to use it, maybe then try it on my customers who love my trad cleans.
Dave
-
Neil100 yes you are right its getting that confidence in the product.
Also i need tips and advise how to use this system.
Dave
-
Where do you live?
Go out with someone whos used to wfp, It amazing what you will pick up just by watching someone.
I had about three demos from companys like ioincs and tucker, so I got hands on advice and I picked up a lot of knowelge from this forum which as been worth its weight in gold.
Its understanding why you use a method in wfp and not just waveing a pole around. It will come in time. I have done 8 months wfp, I am still completely thorough when I clean. I dont get complaints, just praise and recommendtions. The speed will come, I normally am not bothered about how fast I go wiyh wfp, but I was in the mood this morning so I timed myself on 4 bungalows. Trad it would take 1 hr 15mins. Wfp took 35 mins and the scarey thing is I can go a lot faster then that if I wanted to.
Come summer next year you will be flying with wfp and you will be a lot safer.
Nel.
-
I am in Birmingham.
But with a lot of help from this site i will soon get the hang of it.
Also a concern of mine is the amount of water all over the ground
Dave
-
I am in Birmingham.
But with a lot of help from this site i will soon get the hang of it.
Also a concern of mine is the amount of water all over the ground
Dave
It's no worse than rain. Need to watch it in freeze ups though. I carry rock salt with me.
-
david68 were do you live?
-
David,
Been Temted!!!
At first it's a nightmare. Leaving the windows wet is the worst disadvantage of the WFP. You and the customer don't know the windows are spotless when you leave.
At first you make mistakes and it's hard to wash ALL the dirt off and it shows when they dry so that knocks your confidence.
The key, I find is PERSIVERENCE!!!!
and be honest with your customers
David
-
I am in Birmingham.
But with a lot of help from this site i will soon get the hang of it.
Also a concern of mine is the amount of water all over the ground
Dave
Dave I'm in Birmingham if you want some help I'm willing to help.
-
Hi David, I went wfp and used it everyday for 4 Months. I then made the decision to go back to my ladders on houses, you are absolutely right it is so much less hassle, it is easier, quicker on most jobs, and you can see the finish is good before you leave.
As I have said before a lot of the people who post on here sell wfp equipment, and many of those who don't have been wfp brainwashed, so be careful who you listen to.
Many of my customers told me that they were very relieved when I started using trad methods again, as they didn't like the water all over their patios, running down the walls ect. In my opinion wfp is great for large commercial, but for the average house you can't beat trad!! ;)
-
Hi David, I went wfp and used it everyday for 4 Months. I then made the decision to go back to my ladders on houses, you are absolutely right it is so much less hassle, it is easier, quicker on most jobs, and you can see the finish is good before you leave.
As I have said before a lot of the people who post on here sell wfp equipment, and many of those who don't have been wfp brainwashed, so be careful who you listen to.
Many of my customers told me that they were very relieved when I started using trad methods again, as they didn't like the water all over their patios, running down the walls ect. In my opinion wfp is great for large commercial, but for the average house you can't beat trad!! ;)
I can't disagree more with the last comments. Many WFPers say their first few months were a nightmare, so I set myself up for a tough few weeks. You know what, they never came. First two days I earnt less than normal, but since then have regularly earnt £20 -£30 extra a day, oh & I've had 2 complaints & lost no customers.
My conclusion is this, if I think my system is the best thing since sliced bread now imagine how I will feel 3-4 months down the line when I can get through some serious work in a day.
-
Dave i,m just south of Birmingham if you want to come and have a look how we do it let me no.
-
Thanks all for great advice
Also thanks to johnL for the great notes.
I will keep at it and hope its my future if not then i will agree with groundhog.
The people offering help what area of Birmingham do you do?
Dave
-
sorry thanks Tosh for the great notes of cleaning
Dave
-
OK I've been wfp for 18 months - changed my customers over in areas.
First commercial
Then a few 3 storey farm houses
Then detached and big semi's.
Finally council house semi's and small terraces in May this year.
To start with it was slow - then i got used to it, like I did when I started trad. up until May I used a trolley - then I went tank, microbore and backpack - it is like changing up a gear - so much faster and easier.
Today I did one of my village areas (Started late/finished early)
House 1 Detached old farmhouse mainly white aluminium in hardwood
House 2 Detached modern farm house mainly upvc
House 3 Large detached house mixture sliding sash real georgian and white upvc mock georgian.
House 4 (Next to house 3) fronts and side of single bay semi upvc
House 5 Fronts of detached house
House 6 Large Detached UPVC
House 7 Large Detached UPVC
House 8 Bungalow detached upvc (done trad)
House 9 Detached UPVC
House 10 Large semi next to above UPVC
House 11 Detached Hard wood
Being a numpty I left my small pole at house 1 but didn't miss it 'til I got to house 9 so went and checked at all the houses to see if I'd left it behind - I also had the opportunity to check the state of their windows and they were all fine.
It's taken me over a year to inform, train and change my customers over, to become proficient in wfp as I was on ladders and my turnover went up by £5000 in year one - this year it looks like it will go up again. And I feel less tired at the end of each day.
I will never, ever ever - did I say ever? - ever go back to ladders.
More safe, more money, more confident and more professional.
Stick with it, do not be dictated to by your customers and reap the benefits.
-
Malc great comments......\this makes me wanting to get my wfp back out to play
Dave
-
Malc great comments......\this makes me wanting to get my wfp back out to play
Dave
Yes. I think the last bit that Malc said was the key point for me when he stated "...........do not be dictated to by your customers and reap the benefits."
I was a bit scared of them at first because I didn't have full confidence in the work method and maybe a few of them picked up on it. As time has gone by I have gained in confidence with WFP. It's all very well taking the view that we offer a service but that service has to be financially viable in order to continue. By letting the customers dictate how we do the window cleaning is the proverbial tail wagging the dog. If someone doesn't want WFP on their property, then they can find themself a traditional window cleaner. I still use trad on a very few jobs but that's OK because the choice is MINE.
-
I do listen to the customers. If they say wfp is not as good as the trad clean. I will allways go back and check my work. Out of my entire round I have only switched one customer back to trad downstairs.
I do odd customers trad, these I have never done wfp cos I know the finnish will not be up to my high standards.
I also have 6 small terrace houses all next to each other, These i do trad because it was a nightmare trying to wfp the back windows in their tiny yards, all seam to lock their gates so its up and over.
I have lost about 5 customers who did not like the water dripping down, all old people by the way. One customer cancelled this week saying his wife said she did not want them cleaning anymore due to my son leaving them dirty last time with wfp. I called back that evening to see her, I have never lost a customer due to bad work so I thought go and give her some TLC. Well blow my socks off. They where not dirty she expected him to squegee the windows off, when he never did she thought we where takeing the Michael. So I explained to her how wfp works, I told her I had explained it to her husband when I started useing wfp. CARRY ON CLEANING THEM she said.
Could Groundhog explain how you brainwash somebody into wfp?
Am I a seller of wfp? NO
I have used wfp for 8 months, and I think its fantastic. I have done trad w/c for 26 years so I know my onions as far as w/c is concerned. Sorry Groundhog but I think your view is utter Tripe.
Did a customer today, it was her second clean. It costs them £21 a go. I allways ask customers with wooden frames if the finnish was up to standard when useing wfp. Her reply. " I thought it was just sales talk, all this about pure water, when you called last month. My windows were Filthy so I thought get him to clean them, then cancell due to them not being as clean as they should. I was totally dumstruck, I checked every window and every window was perfect. They are the cleanest windows I have ever paid for. Thankyou as they say it did what it said on the tin.
So if you cant clean them Correctly with wfp. Its down to user error.
Nel.
-
GuysI dont think you are seeing the bigger pic where groundhog is concerned
he has told you that he uses wfp on commercial and large domestic and thinks it is a great tool
but simply finds it a hassle on run of the mill houses like terraced semi small detached, like carrying backpacks on back stopping refilling with water constant
or using a trolley and you can get it arounf the backs and you run hoses and they get caught on wheely bins or hedges or garden furniture and washing lines
or you run a van mount or a trailer and you need to reload the gear back into the trailer or van move it a few feet bring the stuff back out and go thru the same hassle.If you are going to criticise the guy at least see where he is coming from. wfp works for some guys but like myself as well as groundhog
it is so much easier to carrier a ladder and thats all for run of the mill houses that dont pay a lot and you need to clock up the numbers he is not critising wfp for standards but basically saying for his type of work he does not like the hassle
the guy should be allowed to come on and express his views as all views are different
only my view
jinky
-
Well said Jinky.
He's basically said what I think on the subject.
If I had (or knew I was going to get) loads of big commercial work, I'd have a wfp system. Honest, I would!
Just not worth the bother on houses though.
-
Well said Jinky.
He's basically said what I think on the subject.
If I had (or knew I was going to get) loads of big commercial work, I'd have a wfp system. Honest, I would!
Just not worth the bother on houses though.
When I awaken in the morning, I am going to log on to this thread and see that Squeaky's last post has disappeared. I will then realise that I WAS dreaming after all ;D
-
Roger (Squeaks) needs to get some new ladders; ones with rubber feet; ladders that aren't worn down to the bare and bent alluminium; before he starts thinking about getting a WFP.
If he can't afford a servicable set of ladders; he's got no chance in affording a WFP set up.
I'll donate him some yellow feet.
-
squeaky us guys are just trying to be up front and give an honest view of wfp
I think wfp is great on commmercial because I have plenty of access to clean the windows
but I do typical modern estates an a typical eg is as follows
4 bedroom detach with window over garage with 4x4 parked in the driveway beneath the window you are nearly climbing all over the vehicle to get the window at the same time trying to avoid touching the car.
you then go down the narrow lane at the side which is the size of a 3x2 slab
with snib at the top so the gear is put down and you jump trying to reach this snib as before you just went up a step on the ladder to get the snib
gear back in hand and you need to go down this narrow lane with 3 wheely bins to get pass as the council has decided to recycle everything insight
now you reach the back and the garden furniture is right inline of the path of the pole for cleaning the windows, so the gear goes down again and you move the furniture to make a path for the pole to move forward and back when cleaning, and when I say garden furniture I am talking about table ,chairs heaters, barbeque and planters and also trying to avoid the kids trikes
if this is not hassle then you guys must have a lot of patience
as I said at the begining I am just trying to give an honest view and if new guys going into wfp have the same type of work they just might step back and say thanks for saving me a few bob
I still use wfp in domestic of this type but it is combined with ladders, I check out the danger windows by ladder which is usualy one or 2 on most houses on roofs and these windows are done with the backpack in the morning then the backpack is parked and the ladders are off to complete the houses, this way i know I am operating in a safe manner with as little hassle as possible
jinky
-
If I had (or knew I was going to get) loads of big commercial work, I'd have a wfp system. Honest, I would!
He's starting to turn ;D
-
squeaky us guys are just trying to be up front and give an honest view of wfp
I think wfp is great on commmercial because I have plenty of access to clean the windows
but I do typical modern estates an a typical eg is as follows
4 bedroom detach with window over garage with 4x4 parked in the driveway beneath the window you are nearly climbing all over the vehicle to get the window at the same time trying to avoid touching the car.
you then go down the narrow lane at the side which is the size of a 3x2 slab
with snib at the top so the gear is put down and you jump trying to reach this snib as before you just went up a step on the ladder to get the snib
gear back in hand and you need to go down this narrow lane with 3 wheely bins to get pass as the council has decided to recycle everything insight
now you reach the back and the garden furniture is right inline of the path of the pole for cleaning the windows, so the gear goes down again and you move the furniture to make a path for the pole to move forward and back when cleaning, and when I say garden furniture I am talking about table ,chairs heaters, barbeque and planters and also trying to avoid the kids trikes
if this is not hassle then you guys must have a lot of patience
as I said at the begining I am just trying to give an honest view and if new guys going into wfp have the same type of work they just might step back and say thanks for saving me a few bob
I still use wfp in domestic of this type but it is combined with ladders, I check out the danger windows by ladder which is usualy one or 2 on most houses on roofs and these windows are done with the backpack in the morning then the backpack is parked and the ladders are off to complete the houses, this way i know I am operating in a safe manner with as little hassle as possible
jinky
Yes I appreciate what you are saying about the potential hassles of domestic. I do have a few jobs as you describe (minus the lane) and it can be irritating. I just put up with it and if it persists, I put up the price.
-
If I had (or knew I was going to get) loads of big commercial work, I'd have a wfp system. Honest, I would!
He's starting to turn ;D
Shall I lend him a broom and electric drill ? ;D
-
Really I would.
I'd just need a big commercial round to merit it.
Oh yeah, and a different house where I could fill my van without running a hose through my house and down 14 steps.... ::)
Funny you should say that about the ladder Tosh.
The only times it ever slipped a bit was when the feet were on it. :-\
Metal against concrete is a seriously abrasive contact.
More so than rubber against concrete.
It's solid now.
Wrong I know, but it just doesn't budge....
Oh, and I'm not on the turn, that's "bottoms" Tosh. ;D
-
Stick with it, you'll get there in the end.
There is a steep learning curve, just as when you first started cleaning windows the trad way, it takes time to get the hang of everything and do a decent job.
Don't try and be fast, be patient and thorough.
If you can tag along for a day with an experienced WFP user in your area then you will find this a massive help, there are sure to be a few that are within an hour or 2 from you that will help you out.
The guys from Ionics also run a course too, not expensive and well worth attending....just bear in mind that it to do the job to the standard they are showing does NOT mean you have to buy or use their equipment!!
Domestic work is fine done WFP, not all accounts are a nightmare to deal with, and if there are trikes, BBQ's, garden heaters, tents, shrubbery, paddling pools and god knows what else in the way, well they are also in the way of you using a ladder too.
You have to plan effectively, you work differently with WFP and hoses than you do with ladders.
In general, trad is quicker with regards moving around, and slapping your gear back on your vehicle, but the gains you make on the actual window cleaning by and large more than make up for it.
My best accounts?
Well priced domenstic work, preferably the larger houses, usually stand alone accounts, but even my normal 3 bed semi's pay well, and I certainly could not do them quicker using trad, and like Neil, I've been in this job over 22 years, and I too know me onions!! ;)
Ian
-
Rog
Metal against concrete is not safer than rubber against concrete .
Dave
-
I think some of you guys over estimate the problems in switching over to WFP.
I decided to change my whole round over in one go, none of this faffing around changing it in stages. One month later no customers lost & 2 small moans & that's it.
As for paying compamnies for WFP training I think you must be having a laugh!!! If you have even the slightest bit of common sense you will very quickly pick it up as you go along.
My wife has cleaned our windows at home & I would gladly pay for the job she did & she's never used the thing before or cleaned a window trad before.
If we are not careful we could be guilty of putting people off swapping over to WFP. It's not some sort of mystic tool that we should be scared of.
As Nike say "Just Do It "
-
Funny you should say that about the ladder Tosh.
The only times it ever slipped a bit was when the feet were on it. :-\
I though you said that you have never had a dodgy moment with using ladders, well if the ladder has slipped its sound like a dodgy and possible life stopping moment to me.
-
Life stopping moment? ::)
I had one move a bit on a mossy patio once, and it wriggled about an inch and then was fine.
Oh, so scary. :'( ::)
What a bunch of fairies window cleaners have become.
Try driving to the shop, it's 10 times more dangerous.
-
I had one move a bit on a mossy patio once, and it wriggled about an inch and then was fine.
Glad that on that occassion you didn't have a bad fall.
Some others haven't been so lucky :-\
-
Well the moral of the story is....don't be a prat and put a ladder up on a mossy patio. ::)
-
Hi Williamx
I would love to take you up on your offer of help.
Where in Birmingham are you.
The rest of you guys thanks for all the advise given.
Dave
-
I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder ;D There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!! ???
-
I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder ;D There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!! ???
Plenty of "real men" in the graveyard. I'd rather be a live coward than a dead hero ;D
I'll leave the real hero stuff like eating three Shredded Wheat to others.
Paul <---- Coco Pop man
-
So you have to be a hero to climb a ladder do you ;D you are far more likely to be killed driving to work than climbing a ladder, especially when your van is full to its limit with water! :-\
-
Your right groundhog 800 ltrs is a lot of weight to carry in the van.It does effectt perfomance, I dont give a pigs whistle though for its 0 to 60mph time.
I bought a van that was designed to carry that amount of weight, I would be in trouble if I tried to fit the tank in an estate car.
Has for the brakes I got a van with abs so that helps. I know the van is heavier so I drive accordingly, you wont get me raceing around in it. I allow plenty of room for the vehicle in front. So I only brake lightly.
My freind had a xara estate with only 200ltrs of water in. He only had the tank wedge in. He braked sharply at 20mph the tank came lose and thuded into the back of his seat. It bent his seat and gave himself an hell of a scare. He knew if he had braked hard at 40mph the tank would of broke his back. Very scary indeed.
I think their is a danger with diy wfp set ups in cars that are not properly fitted. I have tried to reduce the amount of risk to myself by haveing the tank fitted through the van floor by a Professional enginer who also designed my tank and tank frame.
At the end of the day you cannot protect yourself from the nutter comeing the other way. I cycle and I remmber the awfull incedent where a car smashed and killed several riders on a training run 6 months ago. You can only do the best you can,
Nel.
-
groundhog,
what size tank do you have, or whats the maximuim amount of water you can carry?
can you give us a more detailed explanation as to why you dont get on with wfp on domestic work?
-
Glad to hear that you drive accordingly when carrying a large amount of water Neil, just as I use my ladder sensibly and correctly to minimise any risk.
I have a 400ltr tank in my van, which I use reguarly for commercial jobs, but on domestics I just find it much easier and quicker just to get the ladder off the roof rack, rather than messing about with hose reels and poles all day. The main part of my domestic round is a large estate of 300 houses and I clean over 150 of them Monthly. With my ladder I just park up, get my ladder and bucket, and I can work all day without the need to return to the van if I want. And to be honest I enjoy using my ladder, I have used ladders for many years and I use them correctly and have never had a problem. :)
-
i started using wfp, but stopped!
Too much hastle for little houses, i find it quicker cleaning by hand. If you are slow at window cleaning, or maybe 'getting on' a little, im sure it will speed you up, but i am certain, for me, trad is quicker.
That is, except on leaded and geogian, you cant beath it for that! And big houses and commercial work is great for wfp!
I lost a few customers through turning wfp, but on the other hand i gained a few really good ones too! And these are my best earners!
So if your round consists or big houses you cant go wrong with wfp!
So there are lots of positives and nagatives, but overall i do not regret buying mine
-
huys I am the same as leeksons ccommercial and large domestic it is a good tool, but small domestic quicker with the ladder, but do use it on 4 bed leaded
suits this type of work as well
if you are worth your weight with a sweegee and ladder, on small houses it can hold you up, I have 30 years under my belt and can load up as much as 4 sweegees different sizes on my belt if it determines what work I am doing
jinky
-
My point exactly, wfp has its place but for most houses trad is quicker, I also find trad quicker on leaded windows. I also find it far more enjoyable to just sling my ladder on my shoulder and off I go, no hassles with hoses getting caught up and people complaining about their windows being left wet ect ect. ;)
-
its still a good tool to haave anyway. For example, conservatory roofs are good little earners
-
Exactly ;)
-
Ok groundhog and leeksons, sounds like some of your work is not suited to wfp.
I can only comment on my own round which is nearly all domestic. I do really large houses worth over £100 to me, down to small 3 bed semis. I use a backpack as well, only on awkward houses. I am fast at trad cleaning but wfp is so so much faster over a days work.On my best stuff I have earned double with wfp on a days work then what I did as a trad w/c. If I go out for half a day I earn far more with wfp no matter the size of house.
On Wednesday afternoon I did an old mill conversion complex, doing trad w/c it took me on average 4 hrs. I was shocked this time as wfp clicked on this complex, I was just better organized, time taken 2 1/2 hrs just going steady.
On a days work I earn at least £70 more with wfp. thats the truth, I just find it very hard to believe and compehend when another w/c says hes faster doing it trad. I know all my freinds who have domestic rounds, Thats 6 other local w/c all find wfp a lot faster and they earn between 30 and 60% more with it.I have looked back at what I was earning last year trad cleaning compared to what I am earning with wfp. The diffrence is amazing
Keep safe on those ladders.
Nel.
-
I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder ;D There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!! ???
I am lost with all this talk and bravado about being a "real man"??
If it is safe then go up the ladder, if not use and alternative method, simple!
In my days of ladder work I would be footed on a slippery surface. one thing was for certain, I would't even think about doing it myself without footing, thats not brave thats just stupid and for the days that I worked on my own I would simply tell the customer I would not be doing that window today as the ladder isn't safe.
Being a "real man" or not as has been posted, the fact of the matter is you can't earn money while sat in hospital with a broken back or leg etc.....
Whatever method you use should be safe.
Trev
-
I think that like many things in life the choice is not entirely ours....Insurance companies being what they are, are starting to see yet another lucrative channel to take in yet more money...Ladder usage
I admit ladders and I are not bed partners, however I do use them for access to use the WFP.
My start with WFP has been great...am evening thinking about a backpac as well.
Thats said my insuance company here in Holland have asked how I work and as a result my insurance premium is lower. As we all know insuarance companies are global entity's and as such WILL catch on to new ways of taking money.
I suppose that in the future I along with many other will be penalised for carrying large amoutns of water...Thats expected.
Cheers
Dave.
-
Its not bravado, its just that some of us are fed up with all this namby pamby talk of how dangerous ladders are, a lot of this comes from wfp
suppliers to persuade wc to buy their systems. As I have said before ladders are safe when used correctly.
As for wfp being twice as fast as trad on most properties all I can say is b******s!!!!!!!!! As an example I have a road of small 2 bed houses on my round 10 houses in total, it takes me about 10 minutes per house with trad, with wfp it would take me that long to get set up and ready to go on the first house! I would like to see a wfper do these houses in 5mins! It cannot be done, I would expect it would take more like 15-20 mins with wfp. Next time I am there I will try it wfp to see how long it takes and report back.
I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker. ;)
-
I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker. ;)
Exactly what I've always said.
They're not going to admit it after spending loads of money. ;D
It's all talk.
Not sucking me in. ;)
-
B******S Ground hog.
You say it takes 10 mins to set up with wfp. Tripe, What are you doing?
I would start that row in exactly the same time you would start it doing it trad. You have to get the ladders off including unhooking them.
I would open side van door, put backpack straight on my back, Open backdoor take out my 16' pole, 4 x 4' pole. That would take about the same time as your ladder.I would switch backpack power on as I walk, Adjusting the pole to the requiered hight as I walk, Turning water valve on just before I arrive at first house, I would then start cleaning the window straight away, 30 seconds later move onto next upstairs window, by this time you would be getting ready to squegee your first window. The time gap would widen between us.
It does not take me any longer to set up with wfp then trad. If its the hose from the van I just grab the hose, tuck the hose through my belt, connect my pole and walk to start cleaning windows. how difficult is that? With ladders, its stop car, go round the other side open car door take bucket out, put bucket on the belt on, take bunjees off or ladder clamp, position a ladder next to bucket, lift ladders off pick up the A ladder and bucket and away you go. For me set up time with wfp is no diffrent to trad.
It makes no diffrence to me if you want to do domestics trad, but I think you are telling porkys as for telling how long it takes to set up wfp.
Nel.
-
OK Neil I was talking about a van mount or even worse a trolley, I would agree that a back pack is probably quicker to set up than other wfp systems, but there is still no way that it would be faster than trad on the houses that I am refering to, not if you are cleaning them properly. And I don't have to keep returning to the van to top up with water.
Be careful though as I have heard that back packs are very bad for your back, and just imagine if you tripped up with one attached to your back, that could be very nasty indeed! :'(
-
OK Neil I was talking about a van mount or even worse a trolley, I would agree that a back pack is probably quicker to set up than other wfp systems, but there is still no way that it would be faster than trad on the houses that I am refering to, not if you are cleaning them properly. And I don't have to keep returning to the van to top up with water.
Be careful though as I have heard that back packs are very bad for your back, and just imagine if you tripped up with one attached to your back, that could be very nasty indeed! :'(
like a turtle
-
I agree with Squeaky, window cleaners used to be real men, now they are scared to climb a ladder ;D There is danger in everything we do, what about driving a van with 800 litres of water in the back, that weight will greatly affect the performance of your van especially the brakes!! ???
I am lost with all this talk and bravado about being a "real man"??
If it is safe then go up the ladder, if not use and alternative method, simple!
In my days of ladder work I would be footed on a slippery surface. one thing was for certain, I would't even think about doing it myself without footing, thats not brave thats just stupid and for the days that I worked on my own I would simply tell the customer I would not be doing that window today as the ladder isn't safe.
Being a "real man" or not as has been posted, the fact of the matter is you can't earn money while sat in hospital with a broken back or leg etc.....
Whatever method you use should be safe.
Trev
I've always worked alone Trev apart from the very occasional very large job where it's better with two. On jobs where I was concerned about the footing, I have used a pole with applicator/squeegee on the end - swivloc if the angle is difficutt. I was doing this before WFP was around too. I couldn't do such a good job with it as by hand but I would just tell the customer that it was to be done that way or left. I had my near misses early on in my business and I learnt from them. I did have a near miss a couple of years ago too which was a totally different type of accident. I also learned from that one. Sometimes people don't get the chance to learn from near misses unfortunately.
-
guys you are lucky you can clean 2 houses with a backpack setting no 2 and as you go down the line of houses the distance getting water is further
I have backpacks with small di fitted to a trolley with 2 containers and top up as we go once the 2 containers run out cant be bothered running back to get fresh containers just as easy to connect to the customer outside tap and refill the containers thru the small di
in ten houses that is 5 to 6 backpack refills I keep the backpack at 12lts to keep the weight down, and I did a race with a good trad window cleaner and he left me for dust, the time of gear down refill back on move about on small 2 bed houses
cannot match a good window cleaner with years experience, and by the way guys you should be doing 8 an hour of this type of wirk
2 bed terrace or 2 bed semi bottoms you stand and do because they are easy to reach so I dont think my figures are over the top
lets keep wfp were it should be commercial and large domestic and we will all get on
jinky
-
Its not bravado, its just that some of us are fed up with all this namby pamby talk of how dangerous ladders are, a lot of this comes from wfp
suppliers to persuade wc to buy their systems. As I have said before ladders are safe when used correctly.
As for wfp being twice as fast as trad on most properties all I can say is b******s!!!!!!!!! As an example I have a road of small 2 bed houses on my round 10 houses in total, it takes me about 10 minutes per house with trad, with wfp it would take me that long to get set up and ready to go on the first house! I would like to see a wfper do these houses in 5mins! It cannot be done, I would expect it would take more like 15-20 mins with wfp. Next time I am there I will try it wfp to see how long it takes and report back.
I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker. ;)
Apart from first cleans, I can only think of four jobs of mine that are slower with WFP. They are small, old houses that are close to each other which involve a certain amount of flat roof climbing and have some sashed windows. I do these ones trad not because of the time taken but because of the general awkwardness with WFP. I have to get the ladder off anyway for these due to the flat roofs so I just end up using the ladder on all the upper windows. There are only eight top windows between the four houses and four of those are over flat roofs anyway.
I'm certainly not anti-trad. I used it full-time from 1991 until last Autumn. However, I believe I have now found a better way. I'm not brainwashed either but remembering some of the crazy things I did on a ladder before I gained experience, maybe my brain needed a good wash.
-
Your right you have to be carefull with backpacks, they are very heavy when fully loaded with water.
I use the van mounted system most of the time, but I do use the backpack every day, its on selected propertys that are awkward or on their own. I know tosh uses one all day, but I would not like to use it all day. But it comes in very handy and I would not like to be with out it.
Nel.
-
I know of a few people in my area that have changed over to WFP and none i know have gone back.
Most jobs can be done quicker with WFP if you have the right setup for the job.
It takes less than a minute to connect hose reel and pull the hose to the job.
Take pole with you and in less than a minute you are cleaning.
Ok some jobs have stuff in the way but it should not take much longer.
I do have a couple of jobs i use ladders for just because i would need a ladder for a flat roof.
So if i need to get a ladder off i will do the rest of the job with ladder.
Paul
-
neil this is not a competition of wfp versus traditional
it is basically guys views of what they have experienced with wfp in domestic
we all use wfp and find it a great tool, doing contracts that before where a nightmare but we are realistic and know when to go back to traditional to earn the pennies that pay the bills rather than mess about all day trying to justify I have bought the product now I need to get maximum production from it
I cant see lads with our experience of years behind us not carrying ladder work out in a safe manner, as I said in earlier posts I do not take chances and get the backpack out for the odd window before I start-- stuff as you know
wet decking, roofs, slippy surfaces but come on
on straight standard work
are you really going to be afraid of ladders when you have liminated the dangers
some how i dont think so
jinky
-
Jinky I am not trying to turn this into a wfp v trad debate.
But if I see a posting that I think is wrong I will chip in with my pennyworth. A lot of first time starters into w/c might look at this forum for advice. They have a choice of how to clean a window and the advice given to them should be honest and fair. I think some of the postings like squeaks are just anti wfp, they are not a fair evalution of wfp. How can it be hes never used it. I do not not pass comments on something that I do not have an indepth knoweledge of.
Some may decide to go back to trad after trying wfp, But to be fair how long have they given wfp a fair go. Groundhog mentioned in a posting it would take about 10 mins to set up. A Completley WRONG stamentment in my book and misleading.
I have nothing against trad w/c, I can see why some w/c prefer it to wfp. I am still doing odd houses trad. I bought a brand new ladder at xmas after my investment in wfp. I do a row of 6 terrace houses trad out of choice, thats because its awkward with wfp in their tiny yards round the back. But thats my choice. I still can do those 6 houses in an hour and at £6 an house its £36.
I know on my round as far as speed goes on domestic houses wfp wipes the floor with trad. Thats my experince and all my freinds who have moved on to wfp.
I am like a piece of Germanic enginering, I am 100% efficent in whatever method I clean windows, I find someone stating trad is faster on trad hard to beleive, I helped a freind on his wfp round and his work is scattered, but wfp is so much faster.
I have on my domestic round this year earned in 35 weeks what it used to take me 52 weeks of trad w/c. Thats working less hours each week and not being as tired due to me going up and down a ladder. Thats the diffrence wfp has made to me, a normall bloke. Their is no way I will go back to just trad w/c. NO WAY.
Nel.
-
Ah Mr Foxman you are so wide of the mark its untrue.
Your first Point. I think a sign written van with a good tank set up looks far more professional then driving a car with ladders on, I think someone cleaning wfp looks far better then someone running up and down a ladder. I allways feel more professional with a pole in my hand then when I am useing a ladder. But that particuler point is down to personal perspective.
Any Fool can spray water on a window, your right their but any fool can go up a ladder and try to clean a window too. Has for three cleans to get it right, Remember that is advice given to someone who is just starting wfp with no experince. You can practice at home but it does take time to learn how to clean them to their pristine best. If anyone starts trad w/c it will take even more time to truly master w/c then with wfp. With trad w/c the varations in the weather have such a massive effect on the results you get on glass, IE W/c on a red hot day with a window basking in direct sunlight is completley diffrent fom trying to clean it in freezing Fog, Very windy days takes an awfull lot of skill with squegee and ladder work.
When someone is competent with wfp they will get first Cleans done right first time.
Has for passing your costs on to customers, not everyone passes those costs on. None of my freinds passed their set up costs on. I did, It was a Buisness decision to do so. It was 2 yrs since I last increased my prices, So it was more to do with natural timeing, then anything else.
You are living in cloud cukoo land if you think any Buisness that makes a signifcant investment in its product or quality of its service is not going to increase its prices to compensate.
The market can only get to a certain saturation point. This is due to a new w/c finding it very hard to get established if there is no work for them to pick up. They will pick up a little work and then stop because they cannot develop their round. W/Cleaning is hard work, the winter sorts people out, if they are very cheap they find it very diffcult to survive fiancially in winter with bad weather and early nights.
There are many w/c out there with several w/c on estates, so customers have a choice of how much they want to pay and the method they prefer. My round has gone from strength to strength since wfp. I have got more new customers through recomendtions then I ever did trad cleaning. The customers now appreciate their sparkingly upvc frames which I could not clean trad and compete with the price they get them done for now.
Nel. (Sour grapes I think)
-
Its not bravado, its just that some of us are fed up with all this namby pamby talk of how dangerous ladders are, a lot of this comes from wfp
suppliers to persuade wc to buy their systems. As I have said before ladders are safe when used correctly.
As for wfp being twice as fast as trad on most properties all I can say is b******s!!!!!!!!! As an example I have a road of small 2 bed houses on my round 10 houses in total, it takes me about 10 minutes per house with trad, with wfp it would take me that long to get set up and ready to go on the first house! I would like to see a wfper do these houses in 5mins! It cannot be done, I would expect it would take more like 15-20 mins with wfp. Next time I am there I will try it wfp to see how long it takes and report back.
I also know other window cleaners who have gone from trad to wfp, and most of them try to make out they are quicker when they first get their systems, as they don't like to admit that they are not, but the majority of them have like me gone back to using mainly ladders for domestics as they find it easier and quicker. ;)
I think I very slow to set up.
I mean all I do is drive up to the house, stop, get-out and open side or back door, switch on pump, grap hold of pole and micro-bore hose, there is 120 metres on hose reel so if I can reach any windows within 120 metres of the van without me needing to move it, I then walk to house and start cleaning top windows, by the time I have got this far you should have the ladder off the roof rack and be attaching the bucket belt around your waist.
When ever you turn up to clean a property, the first thing you need to do is to plan the most safest, efficient and fastest way of carrying out you work.
One on One if you had a terrace house a trad cleaner would be quicker than a wfp cleaner, but also a wfp cleaner would be able to clean them windows that a ladder man sometimes cannot reach.
On a row of houses then it would be more in favour of the wfp cleaner, on any thing above the first storey then wfp cleaning comes into its element, and there is no faster or safer method than wfp.
-
Hi WilliamX
Thanks for email can i ring you Monday evening?
Dave
-
Hi WilliamX
Thanks for email can i ring you Monday evening?
Dave
No problem
-
I fail to see how people think that having a wfp set up is 'more professional'. In fact if anything it could be seen as less so. Any fool can spray water with a brush on to a window and a lot of fools are. The amount of people who take 3+ cleans to get a good result is a joke, how is that being more professional?
The amount of window cleaners who spend thousands on a system then pass the cost over to their domestic customers is shocking. It'll basically amount to them cutting their own throats as the market becomes more and more saturated and prices start to drop dramatically.
Can you think of any industry where the job becomes easier and quicker to do (using WFP) and yet the charge to do the work goes up!? Common economic sense says this is not sustainable, and WFP prices will in effect go down compared to traditional.
Although you make some good points, I feel the need to say a few things about them. The bit about looking more professional is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc. Also, there's a bit more to it then spraying water with a brush. If it were just about that, everyone would get the first cleans right first time. I have struggled with some first cleans and been fine with others. As I've gained experience with WFP, my first cleans have become much better - often as good as a maintenance clean - though admittedly, some types of windows/frames take a bit longer to get perfect. As for passing on the costs to the customer, I feel that there is a shared responsibility with this one. So far, I haven't put up my prices to existing customers because usually, I can get through more work to compensate for the costs of setting up WFP (though until now, I've chosen to have more time off instead). However, I have been pricing new work rather higher. This is as much to do with the realisation that I've not been charging enough over the years - whether trad or WFP.
What I am now realising is that although I can do more work via WFP than I could with trad, I do need to earn a bit more. This isn't just due to van/equipment costs but it's also due to the way my life has gone in recent years.
Another point I would like to make is that most businesses come under the microscope of changing govt regulations from time to time. Window cleaning has always escaped this (assuming no employees).
Changed regulations often result in higher outgoings for businesses whether it be an increase in NI contributions, more stringent safety measures, higher requirement for paperwork, increased vehicle running costs due to fuel taxes, restrictions in driving hours, - the list could go on.
It is debatable as to whether using a ladder is legal as a tool of first resort. Some people feel (rightly or wrongly) that they have been pushed into WFP because of govt safety regulations. Any cost that a business incurs due to more stringent regulations is reasonable to pass on to the customers. The effect is lessened with WFP because it's possible to recoup some (perhaps even all) of that cost by getting through more work) but for many, price increases are necessary.
I'm tending to deal with it more by releasing my poorer paying work and only taking on better paying work. This is not greed. It's a matter of survival. I've had too many difficulties by not looking after my own interests well enough. The worm has now turned.
-
when i do a row of terrace i just do all the fronts with me van mount. wfp
if i get me van in the middle i can do 8 without moveing the van.
my mate does the backs with a backpack.
hes a bit slower than me which gives me time to collect.
most terrace have 3 or 4 windows eachside.
its a 3 minute job for us. each house.
i sometimes walk along them doing tops, then come back down them doing bottoms. then collect or bill it.
it is slower if you have 1 terrace on its own. maybe 5 mins instead of 3.
but who wants 1 terrace on its own.
this work is still quick when i work on my own.
the only problem i do have is parking where i want to.
if i cnt park i move on and call back later.
-
LOL ;D foxman,
any fool can get a ladder a builders bucket with dirty water in and a squeegee, get out in his little car and call himself a "window cleaner".
A window cleaner that spends time and money to invest in quality equipment is in my book more profesinal in what he does and has a serious attituide to business.
Groundhog I can clean a five bed georgian in 15mins, your two bed terrace houses I would eat for breakfast with my van mount, I dont care what you say I would leave you standing. Would your 400ltrs last you all day on domestic, I know some it would as I've heard people say they only use 100 or so but I tell you now It wouldnt last me.
first cleans I can do in good time with exellent results, I dont need to do all that crap of leaving windows to drip I know that i can bring a window up mint first time without leaving it, enough water in my tank you see!!
-
hi david
have had mine for four weeks (pure freedom system) hated the first week as i offered every one a free clean who were not happy. (dont you just love old people and change!) i was not rinsing the frames down well enouh and the results were quite poor. that has been put right now and every one on my round are happy if not astounded by its results. bear with it fella i would not change back now
tony
-
Foxman you are absolutely right, a good trad window cleaner looks much more proffessional than a wfp cleaner splashing water everywhere and leaving everything wet! :o many customers dislike this. And yes any fool can use a wfp, wash the frame scrub the glass and then rinse, there you go nothing to it, the only trouble is you then have to just hope they dry ok. When I leave my windows I can see with my own eyes that they are spotless and that includes the frames, on the first clean with trad I spend some time to get the frames nice and clean, after that I just have to give them a quick wipe with a damp scrim to keep them nice. ;)
-
Hi all
Didn't think this post would lead to some of these text arguments.
But ha every as the wright to write their epionions.
Also i have read all replys and do respect all of your comments.
Dave
-
Are you causing trouble Dave :D :D
-
Who me ::)
Oh what a great site .
Dave