Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: james cairns on August 28, 2006, 03:23:22 am
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guys this is just a simple senario
typical window cleaner builds up his round of say 1200 customers all domestic , he has 2 guys to help him, they travel in the one van with ladders and buckets he is quite happy with the size of his round and does not advertise or want any more work,
they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working seperately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.
The guy goes with the hype in wfp and works out that each man needs 650lt each per day to do the same numbers.so he invests in 3 vans and 3 systems and 3 ro and tanks, etc and also purchases a large hut to put the tanks into
he now has an upmarket image doing wfp but realises
that he has spent a lot of cash on new vans equipment insurance , extra petrol and running costs along with maintenance,
before his day stopped at 5pm when he loaded the ladders
now he need to get
water transfered to vans, batteries charged for the next day, check that all poles connectors etc are ok for the next day before he sits down, and the lads are not producng any more work than what they did traditional
do you think he made a wise decision
I leave this answer to the forum
jinky
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WFP is like any business decision, we are no different to say the farming industry, with new equipment / machinery over the course of years
Our industry is going thought big changes in its 100 + years and we are all playing apart to this, what with WFP systems and new regulations
I have lost count the amount of local window cleaners to me are taking more pride in there business and now realy enjoy going to work this is down to WFP as we now stop and chat, this can only be a good thing ( As long as you don’t tell them your price lol )
Window cleaning is becoming more business like, you can now tender for contracts with the bigger company as you meet the health & safety criteria that building owners are now looking for, and so you can compete with bigger or national cleaning companies
And with the harsh realties of running a business mistakes happen and business will go under, it happens but life goes on like it or not
The scenario you have given…yes he has made the wrong decision, 650lts per man! Max 500lts for a start, I would not by new vans (second hand ones) and would only by one and maybe two, I would have 2 working in one van and the 2nd van doing the small jobs and would make the staff clean and look after the poles and fill up from home over night and if things are not working, things like price increases, micro boro, review of working practices would only help the business be more profitable
Andy
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Where did he get the mythical two good blokes to help him?
In your simple scenario they are reliable, honest, punctual etc etc. I would suggest that in real life that doesn't happen and part of the advantage of going over to WFP woud be to cut his dependance on his men.
Also, if he can get them to do 40 houses a day , work flat out straight through and ( presumably) pay them peanuts then he is a lucky man indeed.
In my experience this is cloud cuckoo land. What happens when they decide they are going to set up on their own and quit? Where does he find another two blokes as good?
And in the mean time, since he can't do them all on his own, most of his round falls into arrears. Guess who goes knocking on their doors?
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the 2 guys could be 2 sons or 2 brothers or 2 relatives and be quite happy to stay with him
if you put 2 men in the one vehicle would this not increase the vehicle size resulting increase in fuel cost maybe and then the 2 guys would need to do 80 houses wfp together is that posible
as i said this is only a senario but thanks for input nice replys giuys
jinky
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guys this is just a simple senario
typical window cleaner builds up his round of say 1200 customers all domestic , he has 2 guys to help him, they travel in the one van with ladders and buckets he is quite happy with the size of his round and does not advertise or want any more work,
they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working seperately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.
The guy goes with the hype in wfp and works out that each man needs 650lt each per day to do the same numbers.so he invests in 3 vans and 3 systems and 3 ro and tanks, etc and also purchases a large hut to put the tanks into
he now has an upmarket image doing wfp but realises
that he has spent a lot of cash on new vans equipment insurance , extra petrol and running costs along with maintenance,
before his day stopped at 5pm when he loaded the ladders
now he need to get
water transfered to vans, batteries charged for the next day, check that all poles connectors etc are ok for the next day before he sits down, and the lads are not producng any more work than what they did traditional
do you think he made a wise decision
I leave this answer to the forum
jinky
Hi Jinky,
I appreciate what you trying to say but I think your scenario is a bit muddled.
You say each man does 40 houses each per day, yet they travel together in the same van? If they can travel together to start with then they can travel together with WFP. So you don't need a van each?
They clean 40 houses per day EACH? Is this a real achievable expectation. I have vehicles with 2 guys in and I would expect the two of them to clean that, not on their own, I think that is a lot to ask, maybe I am wrong?
650litres per man? Says who, my vehicles have 650 litre tanks that supply all day for two guy's ?
3 RO units, why? I would suggest a high output RO unit into holding tanks then submersible pump into the vehicle tanks. You would need 1000 litres per day (if you had two vehicles) so a 300GPD RO unit is fine.
Transfering water with a 70litre per minute Sub pump into a 650 litre tank takes takes 10 minutes, there is no need to check your fittings as you have been using them all day (would you check your ladders and squeegees every night?)
I hope this answers your posting as honestly as I can.
Doesn't this WFP situation get everyone thinking, nobody has said that anyone MUST use this, well apart from some local authorities and councils, but hey, its personal choice.
Best wishes,
Trev
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Come on it's horses for courses....
I have chosen the WFP route as a newbie (did do trad about 18 years ago)...because of various reasons..one being my not liking ladders too much...
There are very valid arguments for both trad and wfp, if the pre-squeegee guys could have had input we would have another very valid set of points.
Change occurs...stat...I used to work in computers for more time than I care to mention....many of the same arguments were presented as here. At the time both very valid and you could argue the same points today..
The truth is that we are window cleaners and this furom looks like it is going to turn into complete dog poo with a bunch of school yard gangs swapping insults, slurs and nonsense. Perhaps we could have an seperate area where all the window cleaners world rights could be thrashed out from here to eternity?
I for one am very gratful for the kind words and advice given to me here, these have enabled me to make a start into the world of window cleaning...Thanks
But you have to admit (or not) some of you guys make yourself appear like complete prats
Dave.
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Hi Dave,
Not sure what your posting is relating to?
The truth is that we are window cleaners and this furom looks like it is going to turn into complete dog poo with a bunch of school yard gangs swapping insults, slurs and nonsense. Perhaps we could have an seperate area where all the window cleaners world rights could be thrashed out from here to eternity?
I for one am very gratful for the kind words and advice given to me here, these have enabled me to make a start into the world of window cleaning...Thanks
But you have to admit (or not) some of you guys make yourself appear like complete prats
Dave.
The posting was a genuine question that as far as I can see has had genuine replies, none of which I read as offensive, insulting or nonsense?
Perhaps I have missed this?
I know I for one have answered your previous posting so i am glad I have been of assisstance even though I may be a prat as you so kindly put it?
Best wishes,
Trev
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Hi Trev...I stand by my comments.....having only been on this forum for a short time...it seems to have turned into a defensive monster...Sorry but hey thats how I see it...
Cheers
Dave.
ps the posting is related to the forum in general.
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they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working separately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.
jinky
Jinky
Your say that you cleaners work safely but at 40 houses each per day then I think that at times that safety could go horribly wrong.
How much do you valve their safety and lives? the total cost to set up a wfp system to accommodate them would not cost a lot.
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guys this is based on a simple senario of a typical window cleaner and not based on myself
jeff you say why the extra vehicles but if 3 men are doing 120 houses a day how much water would they need
the topic was based on 2 bed semi 3 bed semi 2 bed terraced and 3 bed terraced
all moderm estates, is 40 too much somehow I think this is an average for a quality window cleaner you did traditional for years did your lads not batter the numbers in this type of work or maybe ask terry burrows if these numbers are fair or sweeky who is fast at traditional
williamx you question the fact of safety -is safety not related to attitude and speed related to efficency
this is not a dig at wfp it is just a scenario based on a guy should he go wfp and have the extra costs or stick at what he knows best
I believe that wfp is an excellent tool used in the right conditions, but has this not proved that it can be money spent foolishly if you work does not need it.
The issue of safety ladder work comes up quite regular - now if these are straight forward houses with no danger does he really need an ulternative
remember this a domestic round and problems come with domestic that you do not get with commercials like narrow lanes blocked with wheeley bins washing lines, bushes, parked cars under windows etc etc
I am not sticking up for traditional but keeping an open mind to the different types of window cleaning, maybe if some people had the same attitude towards rodger they would understand where he is coming from and understand that in some situations traditional window cleaning can out perform
wfp.and also be run at a small cost to the owner.
I thank you for your replys and please remember it is just a light debate between wfp and traditional and the pros and cons of investing or not investing.
jinky
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I get a mention without even posting sometimes..... :o
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guys this is just a simple senario
typical window cleaner builds up his round of say 1200 customers all domestic , he has 2 guys to help him, they travel in the one van with ladders and buckets he is quite happy with the size of his round and does not advertise or want any more work,
they are all fast window cleaners doing about 40 a day each and have an 8,30 start and finishing at 5pm basically flat out and working seperately, mostly consisting of 2 bed terraced and 3 bed semi, straight forward houses no danger apart from the odd wet decking in the winter, where the guys fit each other for this surface.
The guy goes with the hype in wfp and works out that each man needs 650lt each per day to do the same numbers.so he invests in 3 vans and 3 systems and 3 ro and tanks, etc and also purchases a large hut to put the tanks into
he now has an upmarket image doing wfp but realises
that he has spent a lot of cash on new vans equipment insurance , extra petrol and running costs along with maintenance,
before his day stopped at 5pm when he loaded the ladders
now he need to get
water transfered to vans, batteries charged for the next day, check that all poles connectors etc are ok for the next day before he sits down, and the lads are not producng any more work than what they did traditional
do you think he made a wise decision
I leave this answer to the forum
jinky
If it is the way you stated it then obviously the decision was flawed. However, if you were to state that one of the employees falls off a ladder, dies, and the employer gets charged with manslaughter then clearly the reduced profit of WFP is a better option. In reality though, the guys will eventually produce more once they get used to WFP provided that the work isn't full of flat roofs and poor access. As for the extra tasks out of hours that you mention, they don't take long anyway. It can take just a few minutes to fill a van tank if you have a decent submersible pump in your static tank. Checking/changing connectors is hardly time consuming and can be done while the tanks are filling anyway. Batteries need not be charged if a split charge relay system is used. A trolley battery may need charging once a week at most if a van mount is used most of the time.
Having said all that, on the type of work tyou mention and if the trad cleaners are very fast, there probably would be a reduced profit level. The trick is to get the type of work that can bring the profit margin back up to offset the increased costs and to unload (sell?) the less profitable part of the domestic round.
Just my opinion of course and I haven't yet done all those things I've listed.
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I get a mention without even posting sometimes..... :o
you must be famous
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shiner really good reply and well justified the part of someone falling from a ladder, see it is these replys that gets traditional window cleaners thinking is there something in this wfp
great response mate
jinky
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Hi jinky
I thought that with the new regs you were not supposed to put your ladder on grass directly
so if you were to use a safety plate such as a rojac this would also alter the speed as setting and picking it up would take more time.Really does this not all hinge on the awaited explanation on what the h&s exc say is really meant in the new regs if they mean the safest means must always be used or the safest means you own must be useD
I thought at one time it was all cut and dryed however they seem to have made the regs as clear as mud
I like the pole system for many reasons but over the time I have had it I would say that I was very defenately misled as to its running costs and it has cost me dearly now it is paying for itself but still it is easy to let the cost run away with you of course jinky if they ban ladders altogether he will have no choice anyway.
pay your money and take you choice but whatever the general public by and large really dont seem to care about our safety, if does a better job or they feel that they are getting a better deal well now thats more likely to interest them
regards grant
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grant that is one honest reply
but do you think they will chase up health and safety in domestic
the scots are licenced and nobody bothers to check them
I think the ban on ladders would be good for the industry but it has to be across the board, and too many services use ladders to ban them
you say you cannot put ladders on grass without a board is this fact have not read the rules recently, this would slow window cleaner down if done traditionally its all theory and food for thought thats why I said a light debate
jinky
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I'm having problems with the 40 houses per man per day, I have myself and a lad on a van and we are "cream crackerd" after about 30-35 and thats with WFP.
But as you say if they can do 40 per man per day trad then I would expect them to do at least another 10 per man per day with WFP, increasing your turnover by 25% thus covering the cost of refitting within a short time and the aditional running cost met with ease plus apart from the safety your workers would be a happier work force and of course you could tender for those lucritive contracts just out side your scope before then employe more staff doing 50 houses a day
and spend your weekends counting the proffits.
Alan
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grant that is one honest reply
but do you think they will chase up health and safety in domestic
the scots are licenced and nobody bothers to check them
I think the ban on ladders would be good for the industry but it has to be across the board, and too many services use ladders to ban them
you say you cannot put ladders on grass without a board is this fact have not read the rules recently, this would slow window cleaner down if done traditionally its all theory and food for thought thats why I said a light debate
jinky
I feel that having a board or a stopper under the ladder while on grass would hinder safety much of the time. The little depressions made by the ladder will hold the ladder far better than any board or stopper IMO. Also, in certain conditions, the board could slide across the grass. The trick is to put your weight onto the bottom rung before climbing the ladder - even jumping on it if necessary. You can then see if the amount the ladder sinks will take the top of it below the sill (using ladder mitts on the top of the ladder of course). Allow a bit of leeway for the ladder sinking a bit once you start climbing. Of course, a ladder fitted with feet will reduce the sinking. OK so WFP is safer but what I've written about ladder usage is what has felt right for me. I only seem to use ladders now when they are resting against a flat roof so accuracy is not so critical.
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jeff you say why the extra vehicles but if 3 men are doing 120 houses a day how much water would they need
Jinky who is Jeff ? not seen any mention of a jeff up to this post on this therad.
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sorry jeff should have been trev - my mistake
jinky
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have you guys lost the plot?
to start with when 2 guys work together they will do proportionally less work than 2 guys working independantly, therefore using less water.
you will never get 100% consistantly, people get sick, theres always downtime.
as for expecting someone to consistantly clean 40 houses a day, well good luck, I can't see it happening.
Lastly, I think a few on here need to relax for a bit, a lot of folks are getting up each others noses.
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but do you think they will chase up health and safety in domestic
jinky
In reality, not a chance.
If and when there is ever a definitive guideline that we must adhere to I really think for the next few years they will be looking at commercial.
They will do this for 2 reasons:
1) If not complying they can fine the Window Cleaner.
2) They will also be able to get a bigger fine into the company.
I would say for a domestic window cleaner to be pulled on WAH he would have to just be unlucky with the H&S executive driving past at the wrong time. For sure once it is Law they will be out to make thier mark but I can't see them pestering the domestic window cleaner.
Lets face it, there are enough window cleaners out there without insurance so for a H&S executive to try and penalise you for using ladders would just not work. There are too many dole dodgers out there that will just cause too much paperwork and hassel.
Trev
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Just read my post, just want to make sure that I am not indicating that domestic window cleaners are ALL dole dodgers, its just we know that some are out there.
Just wanted to clear that up in case it was miss-read.
Trev
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You saying I should stop signing-on then Trev? ;D
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well now you come to mention it ! ;D ;D
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Hi jinky
in all honesty I feel it would be to problematic to ban ladders outright I have a client who is an H&S inspector who used to deal with window cleaning accident the H&S aree not toothless just sleeping tigers if the rules they put in place do not cut drasticly the number of accident they will inforce the rules so as to make it impracticle to clean windows by ladders.It realy would be easier for us but remember they have time on thier side and at £3000.00 a fine you have have some seriously good work to carry on.
I personaly cannot see the resistance to the pole if one and all had it the playing field would be level its easier especially for older people and if what they say about having to work later into our years this could be a blessing.
It really is abit like like the car at first you had to have someone walk in front with a red flag so what use was that? it was said it would not catchon well in that case my monies on the wfp not catching on!.
I will check up on the rule but I am pretty sure that you cannot put ladder direct on grass and if it is so many trads are breaking the law it certainly was one of the major points of the consutation
shinner if you use a rojack on grass and even grvel it is safer proven in tests and I have tested it myself with others to stop the ladder slipping if it was going to I you can have the ladder at some daftold angles(not sideways ) and it wont slip
It seems funny that we need others to look after our safety and that some wont even invest a few quid in simple things for thier own good
I include myserlf in that too I have run up triple ladder over spiked railings in the past never even gave it a thought! at least h& s have us thinking now maybe thats the plan.
regards to all Grant
just read the post that they will not chase the domestic wc look at it this a big fine on one domestic wc will stop many wc for fear of loseing a thier house and all job done commercial will just take it on the chin a sail as cvlose to the line a poss as many do now a comserted effort would take no more than a few weeks patrolling and they will know when your in thier area they have wc as well
I think its just wishful thinking
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Can i just point out that ladders are not banned for window cleaning and there are no current plans to ban them.
The hse would like most window cleaners to use wfp but they understand the complexities of the job and they realise window cleaners will still need ladders.
The hse can not force window cleaners to use wfp where wfp clearly is no good for a certain job, ie milky flaky frames.
Ladders can be used in the heirachy of control, wfp should be considered first and ladders if used must be used sensibly and within hse guidelines.
Dave
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Hi jinky
in all honesty I feel it would be to problematic to ban ladders outright I have a client who is an H&S inspector who used to deal with window cleaning accident the H&S aree not toothless just sleeping tigers if the rules they put in place do not cut drasticly the number of accident they will inforce the rules so as to make it impracticle to clean windows by ladders.It realy would be easier for us but remember they have time on thier side and at £3000.00 a fine you have have some seriously good work to carry on.
I personaly cannot see the resistance to the pole if one and all had it the playing field would be level its easier especially for older people and if what they say about having to work later into our years this could be a blessing.
It really is abit like like the car at first you had to have someone walk in front with a red flag so what use was that? it was said it would not catchon well in that case my monies on the wfp not catching on!.
I will check up on the rule but I am pretty sure that you cannot put ladder direct on grass and if it is so many trads are breaking the law it certainly was one of the major points of the consutation
shinner if you use a rojack on grass and even grvel it is safer proven in tests and I have tested it myself with others to stop the ladder slipping if it was going to I you can have the ladder at some daftold angles(not sideways ) and it wont slip
It seems funny that we need others to look after our safety and that some wont even invest a few quid in simple things for thier own good
I include myserlf in that too I have run up triple ladder over spiked railings in the past never even gave it a thought! at least h& s have us thinking now maybe thats the plan.
regards to all Grant
just read the post that they will not chase the domestic wc look at it this a big fine on one domestic wc will stop many wc for fear of loseing a thier house and all job done commercial will just take it on the chin a sail as cvlose to the line a poss as many do now a comserted effort would take no more than a few weeks patrolling and they will know when your in thier area they have wc as well
I think its just wishful thinking
I do have a Rojak and have used it.
I once tried it on a mosy patio as a test (with someone at the bottom of the ladder just in case) and it started to slide. I then used a heavy duty oven cloth under the ladder and it held firm beautifully. It looked very unprofessional but was the safest way by ladder. I'm starting to wonder if I should sell my pointer ladders. My main concern though is if a drought order gets going and I need to use ladders again.
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Shiner
thats the whole point you should havce insisted on the patio or at least where you put your ladder being clean the regs clearly state if it cannot be done safely it should not be cleaned
it will cost you more than one customer if you fall
is it reaaly worth risking your life for a couple of £
some jobs are risky and people get paid a lot for working in them but is window cleaning really that inportant I know squeeky say hes never come near to a fall but the that may have been the same for the wc that now dead it only takes the one fall
I still use my pointers for getting over gates and for internal work on commercials
I am not trying to get at anyone, each to his own I just dont think its worth risking a fall for on £15 or £20 these are just my thoughts on jinkys thread one that at least provoked a sensible debate and not just a bash at the way others choose to work
best regard grant
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just read the post that they will not chase the domestic wc look at it this a big fine on one domestic wc will stop many wc for fear of loseing a thier house and all job done commercial will just take it on the chin a sail as cvlose to the line a poss as many do now a comserted effort would take no more than a few weeks patrolling and they will know when your in thier area they have wc as well
I think its just wishful thinking
Hi Grant,
I have to say I disagree with you on this one, only because I genuinely can't see a H&S executive wasting a day out and about looking for a small fish to fry. I personally believe they will target the bigger fish to send out a bigger message.
I am not saying I am right I just feel that a bigger message will cascade throughout the industry if a bigger fish is fried. I remember about 10 years ago there was a big push on Insurance. Instead of hitting the smaller 1 man bands they sent the message out by hammering a company called Check Clean Europe Limited for £250,000 as they had not complied with the regulations. Everyone went mad and got insurance overnight. Nowadays, its been forgotten and hence there are so many window cleaners out there that still have no insurance.
Who knows how it will happen?, still, as long as I make sure everything I do is above board I can rest assured of one thing, it won't be me they drag over the hot coals ;D
Best wishes,
Trev
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Hi trev
we will have to wait ans see as you say best to keep your own home in order however I feel that if tyey dont make an exaple of some domestic wcs the the attituude that we safe doing as we like will prevail with a lot of trad cleaners I have spoken to a lot who say they just dont care about the ne regs.
The h&S will have the stst if most accidents are with domestic then they will hit them hard.
regards grant
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There are other industrys which use ladders which alot more dangerous than window cleaning, ok a fall from height is bad, no matter what you are doing. For example i used to do cavity wall insulation, in this you have to carry a large drill that uses a 26mm drill bit, this obviously trailing a lead, and drill upto 100 holes in the house, and as high as 3 bricks under the apex. Yet in the regs they say you cant use a power tool above head height unless on scaffold, but the way they get round it is by saying the cost to scaffold a house is more than the cost of the insulation and that the insulation only takes a short time.
On average 2 and half hours, No houses i clean take that long. Also i think they would insist on a rojak or equivelent on every ladder move!