Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Simon Carter on August 27, 2006, 11:36:50 am

Title: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Simon Carter on August 27, 2006, 11:36:50 am
Having been involved in the window cleaning business for quite a time, I've spoken to any number of people who 'used to be a window cleaner', but this involved a  ladder & a squeegee. I appreciate it's still early days, but as yet personally I know of no one who has quite the industry having invested in a WFP set up.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 27, 2006, 12:08:59 pm
and....... ???

I wouldn't if I'd spent silly money on the thing......
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Clear Vision on August 27, 2006, 12:17:47 pm
Squeaky,

I remember In one of your posts you said, "trev, this Is the kind of thing I have to put up with" (when people made coments about trad cleaning)

You can't take It but you sure can give!

You always say you don't want to get Into an argument but from what I see you are always on the look out for one????
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Trevor Knight on August 27, 2006, 12:34:26 pm
You just can't help yourself Squeaky can you??

If I have wasted money as you politely put it, by investing in equipment that allows me to do jobs I couldn't previously, increased my turnover by 24%, expanded my business then ok, I guess I am stupid!

Honestly  ;)
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 27, 2006, 01:19:27 pm
I didn't say you or anyone else has wasted their money.
Yet again people twist my words to push out the non-wfp user from their wfp forum.

All I said was that if they weren't happy with it, they would still persevere due to it being a waste if they didn't.

How's that argumentative Clear Vision?
What was the point in the thread if it wasn't to encourage response?

It's just another thread to say how good he thinks it is again. ::)
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Clear Vision on August 27, 2006, 01:35:06 pm
I didn't say you or anyone else has wasted their money.
Yet again people twist my words to push out the non-wfp user from their wfp forum.

How's that argumentative Clear Vision?
What was the point in the thread if it wasn't to encourage response?


Im not really saying your argumentative. What I should have said Is, your always trying to provoke people Into a response that In turn usually leads on to an argument about wfp vs trad!

Any way, If your so anti wfp please tell me why you waste your time In even looking at a thread which Is wfp related? I'm not Into certain things In life so I don't take anything to do with It. Why bother??

Why not ask the mods about starting a traditional section and just stick yourself In there with anyone else who wants to discuss trad with you. And don't wory, I wont go In there like a "cat amongst pigeons"
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: JM123 on August 27, 2006, 04:03:05 pm
squeeky I bet you fought every day at school!!

you have to ask yourself the question - why has so many other wcers spent the money on wfp - why do they love it so much - why are they all making more money from it????????

Your avatar suits you well.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 27, 2006, 04:11:11 pm
squeeky I bet you fought every day at school!!
No, not since I was about 10.

you have to ask yourself the question - why has so many other wcers spent the money on wfp - why do they love it so much - why are they all making more money from it????????
They're not, just some are honest, some are not.....
Your avatar suits you well.
Better change it then.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: LSB on August 27, 2006, 04:21:28 pm
I have a basic wfp system that i occaissionally use on a couple of offices ! im not keen on it  and dont intend to use it on houses !! 
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Clear Vision on August 27, 2006, 04:28:05 pm
Squeaky you have found yourself a friend!!! lloyd birchley!
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: JM123 on August 27, 2006, 04:55:46 pm
it seems to me that either lloyd doesn't know how to use wfp or his system doesn't produce good enough quality water.

Squeeky, if you can't make more money with wfp then there's something wrong - we easily doubled our turnover within our first year with wfp.  So you must be saying I'm a liar?? >:(
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Pat Purcell on August 27, 2006, 04:56:41 pm
I read these debates with interest and some are good for a laugh but in the long run does it really matter if you are the fastest or the best the ultimate goal is to make money and retain a standard of life that you enjoy, the crappiest lad with a squeegee or wfp may be making more money in less time because he is a great salesman , If you sat down and made an honest assessment of how many hrs you put into w/c each year(this includes selling ,collecting,making water ,following up with custometrs etc)take the amount of money you make each year less expenses (again be honestwith yourself include insurance taxes cost of equipment cell bills etc)divide that by te hrs you work then subtract the average wage for an employed w/c in you area and thats how good you are no matter how you get there
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: JM123 on August 27, 2006, 05:00:08 pm
does that mean squeeky has to include his time cleaning his cloths?  And the cost of replacing them?
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: bumper on August 27, 2006, 05:24:20 pm
I DORNT CARE WHATS BEST, FOR EVERY 1 WFP THERES 1000 TRADE WINDOW CLEANERS WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: neil100 on August 27, 2006, 05:33:23 pm
squeeky I bet you fought every day at school!!
No, not since I was about 10.

you have to ask yourself the question - why has so many other wcers spent the money on wfp - why do they love it so much - why are they all making more money from it????????
They're not, just some are honest, some are not.....
Your avatar suits you well.
Better change it then.

I can give an honest answer to the question weather you can make more money on wfp Squeaks.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

I am not going to say how much I have earned this year, but just to put into context how much more you can earn on wfp over trad w/c. I will tell you the difference wfp has made to me since I started useing it at the beggining of the year.

If I look back and take my best ever years earnings as a trad w/c which is based over 52 weeks. I passed that amount earned, on my 35th week of wfp. So I now could afford to take the winter off, all 17 weeks and I still have earned more then cleanning windows trad.

I have also earned that money with wfp in those 35 weeks in less time then I would of worked trad.

You may choose not to Believe me as you propably will, due to the fact you cannot accept other w/c are genuinely improving the amount they earn per year by switching to wfp. The odd person may find this is not true, But I shudder to think why that is the case.

Stick your head in the sand, Flatly deny the benefits it is bringing to other w/c. Some say they respect you for your Trad stance. I on the other hand who have experinced the benefits of wfp can only asume you are a foolish young man, But wisdom often comes with the passing of years so you never know.

Nel.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: james cairns on August 27, 2006, 05:44:05 pm
guys you say wfp is faster than traditional
can i ask what type of work you are doing that you find it quicker

commercial large ----- hospitals schools etc
commercial medium ------small factories 13ft high windows all in a row
commercial small-- shops small offices etc

domestic large houses
domestic run of the mill semis and council houses

I think the above refers to the topic so other can see where wfp is quicker than traditional and would clarify the topics for other readers on the forum

any iinfo  highly appreciated
jinky

Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Trevor Knight on August 27, 2006, 05:51:02 pm
I DORNT CARE WHATS BEST, FOR EVERY 1 WFP THERES 1000 TRADE WINDOW CLEANERS WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU.

Think your figures maybe slightly inaccurate.

 ???
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: JM123 on August 27, 2006, 05:54:12 pm
we do all types of work other than the really large stuff, most of it would be detached houses, min £25/hr and I know for a fact that we cannot get away with charging what most of you guys charge over on the mainland.  50p for an average window.

I DORNT CARE WHATS BEST, FOR EVERY 1 WFP THERES 1000 TRADE WINDOW CLEANERS WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU.

Think your figures maybe slightly inaccurate.

 ???

yeah I'll second that - if you're going to quote figures at least make them realistic - if that were the case there would only be about 50 wfpers in the whole of the UK. 
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Paul Coleman on August 27, 2006, 05:59:27 pm
it seems to me that either lloyd doesn't know how to use wfp or his system doesn't produce good enough quality water.

Squeeky, if you can't make more money with wfp then there's something wrong - we easily doubled our turnover within our first year with wfp.  So you must be saying I'm a liar?? >:(

I haven't done as well as you from WFP but it has given me a better quality of life since I got used to it.  I started tentatively with WFP in late October/early November last year.  I didn't take to it very quickly and had a lot of initial teething problems partly because of my lack of knowledge and partly because the place I bought from was very short on back-up service.  It took me a while to get a static system and a place for it and eventually, I replaced my van system with one that I felt happier with from a company that could provide the back-up I needed.  My trading year starts October 1st.  In spite of lots of initial difficulties, it looks like my  turnover will match last years - though with much greater expenditure.  Although my turnover since going to WFP is pretty much static, I have had a lot more leisure time.  Once I have replaced my poorer paying work with better work and filled in the other gaps, something like a 60% turnover increase for next year (starting October 1 this year) looks reasonable.  I'm looking forward to it.  The work that used to take me about 6 fairly average paced weeks to get through, I can now do in under 4 since I got used to WFP.  I wasn't the fastest with a squeegee but I bet I could have matched the pace of most on here.  It's hard to be sure but I reckon that I was faster than average but certainly no match for the fastest.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: JM123 on August 27, 2006, 06:06:18 pm
shiner can I ask who you got your first and second systems from?
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Trevor Knight on August 27, 2006, 06:06:45 pm
guys you say wfp is faster than traditional
can i ask what type of work you are doing that you find it quicker

commercial large ----- hospitals schools etc

About 50% faster without a doubt.

commercial medium ------small factories 13ft high windows all in a row

About 25% faster in general

commercial small-- shops small offices etc

Probably not much in it to be honest, the only gain would be in the shops have 1st floor stock rooms etc... that need a ladder?

domestic large houses

Again faster, an example is where a house takes two guy's (1 with ladder, 1 on bottoms) about 20 minutes it would take a WFP (1 guy) about 20/25 minutes

domestic run of the mill semis and council houses

Probably slower in terms of back access and packing away etc....

I think the above refers to the topic so other can see where wfp is quicker than traditional and would clarify the topics for other readers on the forum

any iinfo  highly appreciated
jinky



I have answered as honestly as I can and am not trying to big up WFP. To give you an idea I have 3 vans now purely WFP and have just converted my last Traditional team over to WFP.

I have done this as they get more done and we now have the opportunity to expand our rounds for each van, hence why I am just about to employ a full time canvasser.

Whichever way you want to view this ongoing debate, the fact is this, WFP does work, it offers you the opportunity to get to windows you previously couldn't and it definately reduces the risk factor. Local councils (definately Hampshire) are now stipulating that to be included in the select list of tenders you have to utilise the safest method i.e WFP.

Traditional will always have its place in this industry and anyone who says different is kidding themselves, however, as time goes on WFP will certainly become the way forward in terms of commercial and will certainly hold its own in the domestic market.

I guess it just boils down to how you view your position in this industry and how you see your future. I was so reluctant to jump on board and even managed to get myself ripped off in the process by purchasing a 250litre tank and 2 poles for £1,600 on ebay, yes what a mug! Having soldiered on and worked through all my doubts I now have 3 WFP vans on the road and have to admit I will never look back.

WFP has opened so many doors, I used to have a nightmare employing opperatives and trying to teach them the traditional method and then using a ladder all day, lets face it, it looks easy from the outside but when you have humped a ladder around all day and been up and down it at least 100 times in a day it becomes a very difficult tool to use, hence why so many come and go.

Now life is much easier, I can teach WFP and the retention rate is so much higher.

Well thats enough off me rambling on.

Life is about choices, some your glad you took, some you will wish you had, others you will cringe about.

I am so happy I did!

Trev
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: neil100 on August 27, 2006, 06:10:40 pm
Jinky my round is nearly all domestic, Detached, semis, terraced the norm.

Nel.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Trevor Knight on August 27, 2006, 06:19:33 pm
Lets keep this civil or I will lock it!

I have ammended and deleted as required.

Trev
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: JM123 on August 27, 2006, 06:21:22 pm
hope it wasn't one of my posts - they're never meant to offend
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: james cairns on August 27, 2006, 06:33:09 pm
neil thanks for replying and I hope other guys follow suit

as run of the mill semis and council estates did you find wfp quicker or was it for safety reasons

jinky

 
I
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: paul mather on August 27, 2006, 07:39:07 pm
I DORNT CARE WHATS BEST, FOR EVERY 1 WFP THERES 1000 TRADE WINDOW CLEANERS WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU.

Are you from Burnley ?
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: paul mather on August 27, 2006, 07:45:10 pm
I have a basic wfp system that i occaissionally use on a couple of offices ! im not keen on it  and dont intend to use it on houses !! 

Seems to me Lloyd you are using your WFP system just enough to dislike it.
If you were prepared to give it a fair crack of the whip you would soon get more profficient in using it & realise that it could if you let it change your working life. You would also give yourself the best chance to walk away from your job in 30 plus years time rather than the possibility of pushing yourself round in a wheelchair.

YOU'VE INVESTED GOOD MONEY IN A WFP, NOW GIVE IT A CHANCE.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Paul Coleman on August 28, 2006, 08:47:24 am
shiner can I ask who you got your first and second systems from?

Due to forum rules, I have taken this to private email.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Londoner on August 28, 2006, 09:42:46 am
Yawn !    seem to have heard all of this before (many times).
I don't care how I clean windows, I am  a WFP user but I didn't have to change my religion or anything drastic to get it.
The cleaning of the windows is only of secondary interest. The important bit is when I hold my hand out for the money.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: neil100 on August 28, 2006, 10:10:42 am
Your Bang on the Buck their Vince my lad.

I am wfp and I am very happy indeed with the method of wfp. It would not matter to me if all other wfp users where to sell their systems and go back to Trad w/c.

I look at w/c who clean trad when I'm working, I do not feel envious of how they clean windows, Its their choice. I dont feel I have to go on a crusade to try to convert them to wfp. I am not bothered how anyone else cleans their windows. I do know their is an easier way to clean windows then a bucket and a ladder where you should earn more money.

Yes it does cost more money to set up then a trad set up, but you do that to get more money back. I spent a lot on my set up, but in 8 months I have earned so much more that my wfp system has paid for itself. The other thing as well since going wfp is that I have a deep sense of pride with my wfp setup that I never had in over 25 yrs of having the ladders on the top of my car.

Nel.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: macc on August 28, 2006, 10:49:51 am
Yawn !    seem to have heard all of this before (many times).
I don't care how I clean windows, I am  a WFP user but I didn't have to change my religion or anything drastic to get it.
The cleaning of the windows is only of secondary interest. The important bit is when I hold my hand out for the money.

Spot on Vince, The other thing is i know when ive done a days work i will be in one bit & not down A & E, my safty comes first.

The other thing as well since going wfp is that I have a deep sense of pride with my wfp setup that I never had in over 25 yrs of having the ladders on the top of my car.

Nel.

Agree again. When i sit in my van & compare what the windows come up like to next doors i know ive made the right choice for me.

Im not saying every customer will like wfp, they dont, some are stuck in the old days like Squeaky. I had one on Friday that cancelled because of wfp, reason, dont like them left wet even though they came up mint when dry,  ???. But i picked up two more that day because im wfp. Each to there own.

Macc
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Alex Gardiner on August 28, 2006, 12:39:53 pm
Squeaky......

I have to admire you for sticking to your guns, now I completely disagree with you in every way, but I think everyone has the right to decide on their own working practice.

I wish that there were more like you in my area as I would have an even bigger business advantage!

WFP will not suit everyone it is simple.

My Tax return clearly shows that over the last 5 years I have earned more each year by switching to WFP and am working less hours each year as well. To me that is indisputable, however if you are happy with Trad fair enough.

Alex
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: LSB on August 28, 2006, 02:51:01 pm
Sorry i didnt stay on to see the continuation of this conversation ! My point is not just the wfp vs trad on quality grounds , but everything else ! access , parking , etc  ! im mainly domestic in harrow ( nw london ) my round is mainly 3 bed semis and does include climbing in / over , i just dont see how all things considered that i will be any quicker or better off financially or time wise !   
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Paul Coleman on August 28, 2006, 06:02:30 pm
Sorry i didnt stay on to see the continuation of this conversation ! My point is not just the wfp vs trad on quality grounds , but everything else ! access , parking , etc  ! im mainly domestic in harrow ( nw london ) my round is mainly 3 bed semis and does include climbing in / over , i just dont see how all things considered that i will be any quicker or better off financially or time wise !   

If you do a lot of gate and roof climbing, you probably wouldn't be any quicker with WFP.  For me the trick has been to start freeing myself from work where there are too many obstructions.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: JM123 on August 29, 2006, 12:46:04 am
yeah no doubt if there are a lot access probs then ladders may be better, but like shiner we get shot of work like that.
Title: Re: Industry stability due to WFP
Post by: Londoner on August 30, 2006, 10:23:09 am
I agree with that. Bad access is a problem but its not my problem anymore.
I just say no, there is always a customer with no access problems further down the road.

Otherwise you build up a collection of horrors that slow you down and it gets worse over time.

The big secret of sucess is choose customers you want to do and not take on everything that is offered