Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Jason Atwell on August 21, 2006, 11:17:07 pm

Title: dreaded leaded
Post by: Jason Atwell on August 21, 2006, 11:17:07 pm: Im newish to windows and have leafleted, and through word of mouth, and local window cleaners passing on work, have built a reasonable round of two and a half days a week. now i dont want to turn work away, but the more work i get the more valuable my time is becoming, and im coming across leaded houses which some window cleaners wont do, as they take too long, one house i do in paticular takes 3 times longer than an average house, so should i, and is the customer going to stand being charged 3 times more? ( is wfp suitable for leaded windows) ???
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: craig jwc on August 21, 2006, 11:20:56 pm: WFP is ideal for this type of work.

I don't charge any more for using WFP than when i did it Traditional.

Wfp will get the job done quicker and i personally think it gives a better finish.

Craig
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: ronaldo on August 21, 2006, 11:23:45 pm: Wfp will get the job done quicker and i personally think it gives a better finish.

Craig
Quote

Oh no, here we go folks, BATTEN down the hathes, ;D
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Jason Atwell on August 21, 2006, 11:25:07 pm: Do you not get any residue off the lead with the water, or does it take a couple of cleans? And what about doing it the traditional way, will the customer dig deeper into there pockets, will be a while untill i will be wfp!
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 21, 2006, 11:26:02 pm: ;D

Nah, leaded's a doddle with a good spray and microfibre.
Takes me no longer than a squeegee window these days.

I usually only charge an extra £1 or so per house if it's leaded.
They're some of my best jobs.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Jason Atwell on August 21, 2006, 11:28:33 pm: I originally tried microfibre, but kept getting smears, so use scrim, any tips squeaky? ;)
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: cybersye on August 21, 2006, 11:30:14 pm: Hi Jase, do'nt know where your located, or what you charge.
If I dont know how long a job is going to take me I price at £25 per hr or proportionately of that, leading to a discount if its regular ie: monthly, especially with leaded
wfp works good with them, check for leaks though! else I spray em with a solution ( i mix up a small bit of ammonia with fairy and pure water) and wipe with microfibre and buff with a scrim.
Hope thats been of help to ya
Simon
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 21, 2006, 11:31:05 pm: Quote from: jase on August 21, 2006, 11:28:33 pm
I originally tried microfibre, but kept getting smears, so use scrim, any tips squeaky? ;)
Not really no.

I've gone over to micros because I found they didn't smear at all.... ???

Not enough spray?
Too much spray?
Crap spray?
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: craig jwc on August 21, 2006, 11:31:49 pm: Quote from: jase on August 21, 2006, 11:25:07 pm
Do you not get any residue off the lead with the water, or does it take a couple of cleans?

It came up fine when i went wfp, but maybe because i had been doing it Trad for a while.

WATER FED POLE WATER FED POLE
;D ;D ;D ;D

Only joking Squeaks

Craig
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 21, 2006, 11:34:27 pm: Your baby's doing exactly the same thing as me Craig. ;D
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Jason Atwell on August 21, 2006, 11:35:43 pm: Cheers for the ammonia tip, Can you buy pure water or do you need your own filter? Cheers squeaky, going to invest in a better quality microfibre, using a morrisons one, maybe thats it!? ;)
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Pat Purcell on August 21, 2006, 11:36:08 pm: As a die hard trad window cleaner (who used to use pure water) the one place i really wish i had my pure water system again is when i do leaded windows
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: craig jwc on August 21, 2006, 11:44:36 pm: Quote from: jase on August 21, 2006, 11:35:43 pm
Can you buy pure water or do you need your own filter?

Most Aquatic Centres sell it but it works out a bit pricey if you want alot Plus it has only been filtered and not gone through resin.

Craig
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: cybersye on August 22, 2006, 12:20:43 am: are you a long way from going wfp Jase?
you could buy a small di for producing your own pure water, otherwise i doubt pure water is essential if you cleaned with ammonia solution, it cuts through dirt n grease and leaves less streaks anyhow and is'nt expensive, use it sparingly though it stinks, I'm only suggesting it for really dirty windows or leaded and those too small or tricky to squegee.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: craig jwc on August 22, 2006, 12:24:45 am: http://www.ro-man.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/22/products_id/30?osCsid=98a0e9627bc68a252ba1004958d67c91

These are cheap enough

Craig
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: JM123 on August 22, 2006, 12:25:35 am: craig, you and me posted at exactly the same time look!!
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: JM123 on August 22, 2006, 12:26:00 am: aagghhh you cant see it now
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: craig jwc on August 22, 2006, 12:32:38 am: Never mind, you'll have to be quicker next time ;D

Craig
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Ian_Giles on August 22, 2006, 07:10:09 am: AS Roger said, microfibre and a good window cleaning spray, both of us would highly recommend tesco's own brand, it's cheap and very effective.
I know Rog thinks he is as quick or quicker on these with spray & buff as he is with a squeegee on a normal window of the same size...but he wouldn't dream of using spray & buff on them instead of applicator and squeegee!!

On real leaded, and not the normal modern stuff, if you use WFP then you have to be wary of leaks, loose panes, broken panes and so on, but it's better by a vast degree than anything you can do trad providing that is that the windows are in good repair.

If you are staying trad then stick with spray and buff on leaded, how much to charge?
Well you have to charge more per window than you would for non leaded windows, if it would be a tenner for standard windows, then it should be at least £15.00 for leaded...minimum, at least half again as much.
Customer doesnt like it?
tell them it takes more than twice as long, and on no account drop your price, get it set in your head that you are not going to lower your price.
If you do, then you will only find yourself dropping the account (as others will have probably done so before you)

On leaded (no matter what Squeaks may think) WFP will give better results, spray and buff WILL leave smears, but because they are leaded, the lead strips deceive the eye.
Once you are experienced with WFP there is no reason why you shouldn't do a top job from the very first clean, if you are new to WFP then it can take a few cleans to get it right, and when you get it wrong with WFP you can REALLY get it wrong :o
On leaded, with WFP you will be 2 to 3 times quicker, if you price the same way you would for trad then you can clean up ;) (pun intended)
But because you are so much quicker, it is hard to price it higher than you would for the same house with non leaded windows.
Even more so with georgian windows.
Done trad, leaded is just harder work spraying and buffing than applicator and squeegee and can be done quite quickly, georgian on the other hand is a different kettle of fish.
Trad can't get remoely close to WFP on these, you are at least 5 or 6 times faster with WFP, and providing frames are in good condition you will do a better job AND the frames will be cleaned too.
If you are new to window cleaning, stick with trad until you have built up a full round and have fully developed your trad skills before you consider going WFP though, it pays of in the end and you will have developed enough window cleaning wisdom to cope with any problems that occur.

Ian
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 22, 2006, 07:58:12 am: Quote from: Ian_Giles on August 22, 2006, 07:10:09 am
Trad can't get remoely close to WFP on these, you are at least 5 or 6 times faster with WFP, and providing frames are in good condition you will do a better
Sorry Ian, but you must be going into wfp sales or something. ::)
That really is piffle of the highest order.

5-6 times quicker?

So the big 4-5 bed leaded jobs I do in Grange Park (you know the ones), that are £15 and take me 20 mins, you could do them 3 minutes or so.....? ;D

Come on, lets have honest advice for someone who needs help, not biased nonsense.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: windows_chepstow on August 22, 2006, 08:20:24 am: PJ,

Roger wouldn't do the time trial thing; he bottled it.

I think Roger's excuses were:

1. The windows had the wrong sort of seals.
2. He had a headache.
3. His Missis's Aunty's dog's cousin has just had puppies and he's got to bottle feed them.
4. All his scrims are dirty.
5. The windows still had the wrong sort of seals.
6. AAAAArrrrrrggggg it's not fair.

I'm sure it was some sort of waffle like that.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: drew86 on August 22, 2006, 10:00:26 am: Hi all I have just won a job with original leaded glass on a listed building, I tried my wfp set up when doing quote on 1 window as previous posts had mentioned leaking glass and sure enough it did leak, customer very disapointed as I had realy sold wfp to her, anyway can you trad guys please tell me the best way to tackle this job, realy want to keep It as it is a £25 monthly.

Drew.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: gaza on August 22, 2006, 10:20:56 am: original leaded windows urgh :-X Ifind with wfp they shred your brush ends,is that the thick lead with the pane inserted into every triangle or square?

gaza
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Fast 1 * on August 22, 2006, 10:32:53 am: Some lead windows you can squeegee with slow, harder downward pulls,wiping the rubber with each pull.Of course,the applicator must not be as wet as normal.Then when the water has nearly dried(if there is any on show),buff with a scrim.No smears.I personally think that when you just use cloths,the greasy residues remain,hence smearing.When using cloths,you are in effect,rubbing the dirt around the window,rather than totally removing it like a squeegee can.Obviously i do not use this technique on all leads.This way was shown to me by a good windowcleaner.I try and keep scrim use to a minimum.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: drew86 on August 22, 2006, 11:53:53 am: They are the small panes about 4" square, I thought I would have to do it all with scrim or micro what do you think.WFP no use on this one windows leak.
Drew.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 22, 2006, 02:26:49 pm: Quote from: FAST ONE on August 22, 2006, 10:32:53 am
Some lead windows you can squeegee with slow, harder downward pulls,wiping the rubber with each pull.Of course,the applicator must not be as wet as normal.Then when the water has nearly dried(if there is any on show),buff with a scrim.No smears.I personally think that when you just use cloths,the greasy residues remain,hence smearing.When using cloths,you are in effect,rubbing the dirt around the window,rather than totally removing it like a squeegee can.Obviously i do not use this technique on all leads.This way was shown to me by a good windowcleaner.I try and keep scrim use to a minimum.
I have done that myself.
It's by far the quickest way if they're pretty greasy and dirty.

Of course wfp will do it 2.6 seconds, but that's another story...... ;)
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Rise N Shine on August 22, 2006, 04:28:51 pm: My way of doing old school leaded windows is with a spray bottle with my usual mix of squeegee off, light spray over the glass, wipe over with a damp scrim to remove dirt, then buff with a dry scrim, they come up great.
Tried microfibre and wasn't happy with the amount of fibres left behind, is this because the ones i used were of low quality?
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: windows_chepstow on August 22, 2006, 04:52:44 pm: Quote from: drew86 on August 22, 2006, 10:00:26 am
Hi all I have just won a job with original leaded glass on a listed building, I tried my wfp set up when doing quote on 1 window as previous posts had mentioned leaking glass and sure enough it did leak,

Drew.

Drew,

Is this an outside only job? I take it, it is!

Then you've got problems.

I do a similar property; but bigger (it's a hotel) and the windows must be at least 200 years old. You should see the state of them; many are bent and buckled; they're not flat windows.

Many do leak, but I crack on regardless, and with this type of REAL-leaded window, WFP brings them up better than micro-fibre; honest. The bristles and water get into the nooks and crannies a cloth can't reach.

With this type of leaded window, the lead is really thick making it difficult to buff with a cloth. Not only that, there is a danger of 'popping' triangular panes of glass out of the lead (I've done this while cleaning the insides).

How about suggesting to the customer that instead of doing it with a WFP every month, you do it every other month; WFP the outside first; then clean the insides, but charge more because inside cleans are a pain?

Just some food for thought.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Jeff Brimble on August 22, 2006, 06:19:57 pm: Not for everyone but I saw a guy with wooly gloves and the microfibre over them, he went over the windows like greased lightening, clean hands and no lead on his skin. Wonder if anyone makes microfibre gloves :)
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: JM123 on August 22, 2006, 06:55:17 pm: Jeff I think there's a company bout 30 miles from here that do them, seen them a couple of months back, real thick layer of microfibre on the palm and neoprene I think the rest. Not sure but I will be there tommorrow or thursday, could take a look for you.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: beefy on August 22, 2006, 07:39:53 pm: does water quality have anything to do with smears or lack of i used to do all leaded with a wet mop then scrim- hard work!! after finding this site i do them all with applicator (as wet as i would do a normal window) squeegie down then scrim dry half the effort & never had a smear
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: jeff evans on August 22, 2006, 08:29:09 pm: Beefy

Do you squeegy the upstairs & scrim ?, i used to do this on downstairs windows with very good results, but found this to dangerous to do on upstairs especially on the larger windows.

Now have wfp and although i still do 95% of domestic the trad way, i do all leaded with wfp, it saves a lot of time and hard graft with excellent results.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: beefy on August 22, 2006, 09:17:36 pm: up & down jeff, but i dont have any with big windows really ive just done my biggest leaded house with wfp (tops) & pleased with results. but not much quicker but im still learning. i think wfp is v.good in a lot of cases but ive no plans to give up trad i like ladders!!
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: drew86 on August 22, 2006, 10:21:16 pm: Thanks for all the advice guys, I realy cant wfp as windows leak realy badly, dont think i could convince her as quite alot of water leaked through the lead and she will not always be in for cleaning up.I think i will take all suggestions on board and see what works best for me.
Drew.
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: jeff evans on August 22, 2006, 10:24:11 pm: Your in the same boat as me Beefy i love trad, WFP is a tool i use, and very good it is on the job,s i use it for.

I still like trad as it keeps me fit and active ( getting on now :( so need all the exersize i can get ) ;)
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Ian_Giles on August 22, 2006, 11:30:36 pm: Quote from: Squeaky Clean. on August 22, 2006, 07:58:12 am
Quote from: Ian_Giles on August 22, 2006, 07:10:09 am
Trad can't get remoely close to WFP on these, you are at least 5 or 6 times faster with WFP, and providing frames are in good condition you will do a better
Sorry Ian, but you must be going into wfp sales or something. ::)
That really is piffle of the highest order.

5-6 times quicker?

So the big 4-5 bed leaded jobs I do in Grange Park (you know the ones), that are £15 and take me 20 mins, you could do them 3 minutes or so.....? ;D

Come on, lets have honest advice for someone who needs help, not biased nonsense.

Roger if you are going to quote me then quote me correctly, it is really annoying when you persist in selectively choosing how you put together what I've written, I DID NOT SAY WFP IS 5 TO 6 TIMES QUICKER ON LEADED >:(

I said 2 to 3 times quicker, and if you would like me to come up to grange park and demonstrate that then I will do just that.
I may not be 2 to 3 times quicker than you will be, but I will be quicker than you I absolutely guarantee it.
I've always accepted you are a quick window cleaner regardless of whether you use applicator and squeegee or spray and buff, but by and large, for the average window cleaner it will be as I quoted, 2 to 3 times quicker on leaded and up to 5 or 6 times quicker on georgian windows.
A standard window will take the average window cleaner 90 seconds to clean trad, WFP will do the job in about 30 seconds tops. You want to time me then be my guest, and I won't be rushing to do it in that time either. And the average window cleaner will take far longer to clean that average sized window should it have lead stuck on them.
The same size georgian window, usually 18 panes of glass will be done in almost the same time with WFP...you reckon you can clean an 18 pane georgian window in under 3 minutes? Time yourself, you may well be surprised just how long you take, you may beat 3 minutes but there is no way you will get under 2 minutes.

WFP is up to 5 or 6 times quicker on GEORGIAN WINDOWS. (when compared to the time it will take your average window cleaner to do them)

If you are going to quote someone then don't edit the quote to suit yourself, this isn't a moderator thing, I am simply annoyed that I've been misquoted, it is very bad form.

One thing I don't talk is piffle Roger, and I'll happily back up my claims.

Ian
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Sir Squeaky on August 22, 2006, 11:43:43 pm: Ian, how can you backtrack now and say I mis-quoted you?

I highlighted it in a box.
It's in black and white! I haven't edited anything.

You said 5-6 times quicker, and it was responding to a thread on leaded.

...and no you wouldn't do one of those big houses in 7 minutes.
Impossible.

Yes you're quicker by far on georgians, but no-one was talking about them.
I don't do them anyway.....

The thread was on leaded windows, not how "great" wfp is.(again)
Title: Re: dreaded leaded
Post by: Ian_Giles on August 23, 2006, 06:09:55 am: Roger,

I DID NOT SAY WFP WAS 5 TO 6 TIMES QUICKER ON LEADED!!! >:(

I SAID IT WAS 2 TO 3 TIMES QUICKER, and I hold to that, and in all I say I am not saying what can be done if you work at it.
Lets face it, if you realy persevere it is possible to clean 3 windows in under 10 seconds...not possible?...oh yes it is, and provably so, there is a man on this forum that is well documented for doing just that....and his name is Terry Burrows!
But of course he is also the only man in the entire world that can do so.

When I quote times I am saying what the average person can hope to achieve; for a newbie coming into window cleaning, even what is considered average takes hard work to achieve, it'll take you many months before you can knock out a standard size semi in 20 minutes and clean it to a high standard.
I know this from many years of employing people and training them, I talk from real experience.

How many more times must you be told about inaccurate quoting, please read what was written by me properly, and when you highlight a quote don't chop one sentence in half and join it to a separate sentence and thereby say something entirely different to what was in the original reply.

My reply was not one about banging on about the virtues of WFP over trad, initially I was saying almost exactly what you were saying, and the original question also queried WFP with regards to cleaning leaded, so I stayed entirely on topic while mentioning the pro's and cons of the different methods of cleaning leaded windows.
In my reply to you when you misquoted me so badly I did not say I would be 2 to 3 times quicker than you on a leaded account, yet again, read what is written properly before offering a rebuttal.
I acknowledged openly that you are a fast window cleaner with squeegee or spray and buff and went on to say that,;
"I may not be 2 to 3 times quicker than you will be, but I will be quicker than you I absolutely guarantee it."

That by the way is a direct and accurate quote.

In 'almost' all situations, WFP is the best way of cleaning leaded windows, even old, real leaded glass, and if you read my original reply properly, you will see that I also highlighted the problems you can have should you use WFP on leaded windows.

The one thing you will not find me doing is offering biased nonsense, I do not bang on blindly about WFP without qualifying statements, nor make grand sweeping comments on something I know nothing about.

And I am more than happy to be called to account, if you can clean those houses in 20 minutes I WILL BE QUICKER THAN YOU AND WILL DO A JOB THAT WILL BE THE EQUAL OF ANYTHING YOU DO, EVEN THE FIRST TIME I CLEAN IT WITH WFP.

Ian.

For others that may offer comment on this little 'spat', I am being blunt and fairly undiplomatic in my replies, they are not the wild rantings of someone typing with the 'red mist' in front of their eyes :-\