Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: alansavvi on August 14, 2006, 06:07:30 pm
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Has anyone seen the advert in CHT for ionics, it has a wc up a ladder in a fuzzy picture saying "I bought a cheap pole system. I didnt get on with it so I'm glad theres a loophole in the guidance so i can still use my ladders".
Then there is a clear picture with a wc saying " I invested in The Reach and Wash System and BWCA training. Now I,m earning twice as much and growing my business by addressing customers safety concerns".
What a load of tosh, no not the ex army moderator but a joke.
Come on i want any wc out there to admit not 'getting on with there cheap pole system'. Tell us about those cracking arguements that sent you back up a ladder! Did it end in a divorce, are you still in touch with your ex!
What about all those who have 'addressed your customers safety concerns' with a ionic system. How do you get on? Did ionics and BWCA not only train you to use the system but thoughtfully give you relationship advice?
What do they think with that advert, are they suggesting that if you don't buy ionics you will go back to ladders and not address customers saftey needs?
Ionics if you are listening dont patronise the rest of us who dont share your philosophy on the world!
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Theres was a picture of it on another thread just recently.
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Theres was a picture of it on another thread just recently.
could you provide the link it will help the thread, thanks
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"I bought a cheap pole system. I didnt get on with it ".
Ionics if you are listening dont patronise the rest of us who dont share your philosophy on the world!
well, I bought a cheap ionics pole and brush and did'nt get on with it!
and so I made my own :D and it was a vast improvement!
I see so many wc's round my way having forked out a lot for a system, lucky we are all in the know hey ?
Some companies will always push their product with scare tactics or hype. Fortunately we have this forum to provide a wealth of advice and help us make an informed decision, thanks alot everyone ;)
Simon
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http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=22749.0
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Had a bad day at work Alan?
I dont see no metion in that advert about these so called "cheap pole systems"!! and we all know they all do the same job, lets not start this one again fellas, I can bring up many plus points, and obviously so can you.
One thing that really gets to me about that pic, is its that fat guy from the fed's lad up that ladder, its a joke.
Mr A Lee, your guy up a ladder wont be hands on a window at 40ft he wont be no were near it!!!!!!!!!
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Understand what you are saying caustic, one thing that got me thinking recently was, you might of posted it previously or someone else, ionics residential systems could actually take customers away from us, why sell them to us and then our customers?
any joy with that willseden job mate?
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propole how you getting on with your Ionics setup?
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Hi JM123,
Yea its good as gold mate, never let me down, hopefully I will have a fleet of pro-7's one day :) need to treat myself to a couple of new poles soon and I might go micro-bore.
Do you sell equipment? or have I got that wrong.
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yeah I do sell equipment mate - def go microbore, you won't regret it, why do you want a fleet of pro7?
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I want to get microbore but am undecided, I run two poles from one pump quite alot will this affect the flow?
I do like the Pro7 its does it all, saying that a static with thermo's would do.
what I dont get is how comes the thermo costs so much more than the Pro7 and the 7 is a heated system and has zero waste.
why is it cheaper do you think?
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Pro Pole
I think it may have been me that mentioned these so called residential systems that are aimed at the owner of the property, however they are disguised.
As a matter of principle I refuse to give my money to any suppler or manufacturer that offers these for sale. I am all for any company making a profit because all companies have to to survive but I draw the line at offering the competition my own money. In effect that is what I would be doing with these companies.
Recently I saw an advert somewhere in which a certain "reach and wash" company was advertising for sales people to promote their residential systems.
Make of it what you will but I see it as direct competition.
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Hi Extremeclean,
Were did you see this advert? I dont think they would do that, I very much doubt they sell many residential kits to the home owner if any at all. Its not worth the marketing infact I dont recall seeing them in the new 2006 brochure I maybe wrong.
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Go to "Home" then recruitment Pro Pole. Look at the last advert on the page.
I could be wrong but it does say residential systems there.
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i have a thermo pure which is superb i have changed some things like the very
expensive colour change resin with 25 litre di vessel
colour change filter 6litre resin last about 2 months £88
25 litres mb400 last about 10 months £79
changed the awful crappie brushes for 16 inch vikan now everything is perfect at the moment
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Had a bad day at work Alan?
I dont see no metion in that advert about these so called "cheap pole systems"!! and we all know they all do the same job,
So why would you spend thousands on a system which is no more effective a its job than any other professional system? The reason I ask is I see it as a complete waste of money to buy Ionics and the like, not trying to put them down but i do think for the money you could and should get an awful lot more.
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I think thats quite an old advert, there website needs updating they havent even got there new systems on there and I cant see the residential kits.
loads of suplliers websites need to be sorted out, pure2o and omnipole's to mention a couple I never have any joy on either of them, Carl or Glyn is it my computer or your websites?
Ionics are a company as said and have to make profits even if they do still sell residential kits the odds that one of my customers buying one are very very slim, so im not botherd at all. Things im botherd about are people slagging down wfp especialy high figures in this industry, why is this such a grey area on this forum, you know what im talking about!
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JM123 ive said before why mate,
the sheer marketing tool of The Reach and Wash System is one thing, which aint no reason to buy the system, but worth alot to my business.
Crash Tested, feeling safe while driving is another, straps are probably as good but I like my tatcham crash tested clamps holding my tank down which are capable of taking 640 tonnes shooting foward.
ready built no hassle of breaking down to mention a few.
its like anything mate if you was buying a new merc and had the money wouldnt you get all the extras, I would love a Pro7 twin R.O twin pumps, dual hose ports on both sides of van, hopefully next year :-\
Do you have a website JM123?
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Caustic,
Why do you want to join the fed? Mr Lee aint doing your business no favors mate is he, have you seen the news night clips?
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i dont want to join the fed i was thinking of joining the new one, apwc.
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propole, no I don't have a website running just yet, there's one on the way.
As for the crash testing, don't believe too much of what they tell you - I studied for both my degrees in Engineering (Chemical Eng and Mechatronic), I know that having the tank secured is important but tank chassis's have to be built for the vehicle they are being fitted to in order for the chassis to operate as it should, chances are that the Ionics chassis are pretty safe but and this is a big but, thatcham approval is a very general approval, note how the Ionics systems are NOT TUV approved, TUV being the world authority in these areas.
Ready built?? Any of the system suppliers on here could have a system ready built for you when desired. So no for anyone thinking I'm just pushing my own systems.
I agree that Ionics systems are reasonably good systems, the marketing does help a bit I suppose, at the end of the day its your own money you are spending, just choose wisely.
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theres been a lot said, good and bad about ionics. Has any body, and that includes the FWC and the APWC actually contacted them about it or is it just another whinge thats going to go nowhere, so theres a challenge to someone somewhere. PROVE YOUR WORTH all you associations charge all that money, now go and earn it
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Ionics are a company as said and have to make profits even if they do still sell residential kits the odds that one of my customers buying one are very very slim, so im not botherd at all. Things im botherd about are people slagging down wfp especialy high figures in this industry, why is this such a grey area on this forum, you know what im talking about
You are obviously a very highly motivated young man Pro Pole and for what it's worth all the best to you I say. Spend your money on what you want to. I've read a lot of your posts and not being patronising in anyway I believe you will go a long way in this trade.
You are full of enthusiasm and wish to be seen as a real contender. We need young blood like yours to give us all a kick up the jacksie. The likes of you are the future.
Just one word of advice if you dont mind from someone who has been around just a few more years in fact decades than you. The likes of yourself are very good marketing tools for this manufacturer. I am not doubting your business accumen because I can see you have it. Branding is very big nowadays and Ionics are masters at it. My advice is build your own branding. Make your logo/name etc completely your own so that it is the first thing that comes into both your existing and prospective customers minds. Use whatever kit you like and dont let anyone put you down for that but do beware of misguided loyalty for a particular brand purely because you see it as the Rolls Royce model.
There are some excellent suppliers of equally as good and cheaper to run kit out there.
Always try to make hard headed decisions and dont get too blinded by the "bells and whistles"
Before your next move along the road which I am sure you will make do some serious research into the kit. I will betyou a pound to a penny that you could get just as functional, reliable kit and still have plenty left over to pay for a good image consultant or the likes to come up with a great brand that would identify you and you could also probably get a complete van wrap done as well.
Whatever you do I must say I do admire your get up and go.
All the best to you.
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Pro-pole......
If you are thinking of buying microbore look on the Gardiner site. Not sure how their prices compare with other suppliers but they say they have a 'special offer'
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Caustic,
I presume your hate for Ionics you have one of their systems :-
My veiws yes very expensive for what they are, but they are running a business
and have very good business sense.
For instance their own resin, very expensive but you can buy this on the open
market for a lot less. But what they have done is designed their system so that
you buy the consumables direct from them. This is good business sense
however you are charged the earth for it.
They will appeal to the big rich commercial firms who think nothing more about
spending £k+ on a system. This market is now shrinking as it is saturated
with WFP machines, the next market is us residential guys which will soon
become huge. Their prices do not match with the up and comimg new businesses
who I feel will command most of the market share.
Overall I cannot knock them for their business setup as they would not be No.1
in the market. However there is one thing that should bother some people
when looking into their products.
They will give you the sales pitch the machine costs £6k+ but you will recover
these costs as you will be faster in your job and more money coming in. In a
point yes but you will be as fast with a £1k+ machine, therefore it will take you
6 times longer to recover the costs. By the time you have recovered the costs
you will need to replace your system, so over in all you are no better off.
I would advise anyone who is looking into spending thousands make sure you
calculate how long it will take you to pay off the system. This will open your
eyes, do not fall for the sales pitch.
In the end each system what you buy will give you 000 TDS, yes it will increase
your earnings but your outgoings will increase. For us residential guys I worked
out it will take me 1.5 yrs to recover the £1k spent on my system. It would have
taken me a lot longer buying a £6k+ system.
Each to their own opinion but we are all here to make money to support our
families, but it does make sense to spend some time and calculate things.
Beware of the sales pitch.
Doug
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What more can any one say on this matter. If you dont like the manufacturer or their product then dont buy it , its as simple as that. All the advertising people like you and me are giving them is imense. Maybe its not all good, but sooner or later someone is going to have a look, and end up buying the product if the salesman is good enough.Istead of slagging off the companies we dilike, why are we not helpin others by singing the praises of the companies we believe in
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Hi guys,
I'm one of the ones that spent a fortune on a system. There are aspects I wasn't pleased with that I have changed but the positive sides of a well branded system are that you can use the bullpoop to your advantage.
For example I won a large contract just because I had a thermopure system and the other guy didn't. Obviously I milked the fact in the meeting room with the client but at the end of the day I won. Everyone knows that people are won over by the bullpoop and the pretty packaging.
Looking back I'm sure I could have achieve excellent image and branding alot cheaper. All I know is that it works. I learnt this buy paying alot of money and learning from ionics. My philosophy is that there is always a positive side to every situation. You just have to realise it and use it to your advantage.
Would I buy Ionics again though...Hmmm
Dom
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Hi Dom,
I would just like to ask how you know it was purely down to your thermopure system that you won the contract.
I only ask because I have been involved in commercial contracts for many years and have yet to lose a job or quotation just because of a brand name? To be honest, most clients I have spoken to are really only interested in H&S and Cost. I have never come across a client who has researched a particular make of machinery to award a contract based on this.
Are you sure you didn't get the contract based on the fact that you operate WFP instead of "Traditional" ?
Just interested, thats all?
Cheers ,
Trev
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Hi Guys
Two months ago we won a nice contract worth £32,000 per year
and when we did the presentation of our bid the client asked if he could see one of our van systems.
We use Ionics and Omnipole for our systems not the cheapest but they look very nice in our Mercedes vans.
Now we may have won that contract anyway even if we had a Bert and Ernie
system , but then again we might not have.
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David
No disrespect , i know exactly where you are coming from, but you are in a different league to most of us on here.
I agree if you are chasing commercial , A good image shows your professionalism and the strength of your company.
The mistake that ad made was to assume every joe blogg window cleaner wants to become mr successful business man, most are happy and content with what they have got.
Saying all that, i am going to buy a brand new van and a top brand wfp system in the next year.
I will go for an Ionics or a concept20 system , because in my opinion these are the only systems with the wow factor and look more professional than any other.
Remember this is just my opinion.
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Dave,
You must be reeling the money in, tell us your secret ;)
Doug
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Hi David
That is a fair point you make however I would have thought most window cleaners would like to make the most profit that they can
to do this I think you need the best equipment.
I dont think you will regret upgrading to an Ionic or Concept 2o system.
As well as our window cleaning business we sell window cleaning equipment as well, and we get many window cleaners coming in to buy
stuff. Alot of these guys have systems they made themselves and some of them are so bad you would not belive.
One guy had a wheely bin with the wheels removed in the back of an Escort Van held down with two bungee straps
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Extremeclean thanks for your advice and your kind comments.
Caustic I agree the overall package play's a part in winning a contract but that includes the van and system, obviously a guy in a car with a backpack can do the same job but image says alot these days.
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Have a look at the new zero waste system and tell me that you wont be proud to have that in the back of your van or that it wont impress your customers. It may do the same job as a diy but it looks damn fine, so does the concept20 package ,especially the van livery.
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David,
The Pro7 "the green system" is the ultimate system i dont care what anyone says you cant get the same or make your own to be the same, no other system is a hot water and zero waste.
why is it cheaper than the thermo pure im confused?
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selling kits to residential customers, believe me if they could sell a kit to every commercial customer me and you have do you think they would consider us?
this is the next market they will take on, they will sell all the systems to Window cleaners, then move onto the home owners / comercail properties caretakers etc etc
sell to window cleaners, then cut our throats
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David,
The Pro7 "the green system" is the ultimate system i dont care what anyone says you cant get the same or make your own to be the same, no other system is a hot water and zero waste.
why is it cheaper than the thermo pure im confused?
gardeniers have a zero waste RO coming soon
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ive said it once or twice Before
end of the day
Tank with pure water in
pump
pole
brush
000 TDS water
same results, the advert is a joke, its slagging EVERYONE off who doesnt use Iwrongics
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You would think that for most people its not their inability to wash their own windows that has them hire you to do it its more the time it takes them im sure a few people will buy the home system and convince themselves for a while that its the bees knees but will tire of all the checking tds and such that you wfp folks do the only problem i see with it is if they make a mess of their own windows a few times using it will they be harder to convince that a professional can do a better job or will they hold out for a trad window cleaner
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Matt Im intrested to see how gardiners R.O works althought that still wont be a hot system aswell will it.
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at the end of the day my thermo pure seems too make us a lot of money with a new van Renault traffic in silver good logos the image has definitely worked with more work than we no what to do with it cost £24000 but its only 22 pounds a day so whats all the fuss about its better than driving the old Astra estate about now everyone takes notice !!!! ::) ::)
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i know some one who spent £9,000 on ionics system 2 months and lots of problems later he is back up a ladder wishing he'd never heard of ionics
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i know some one who spent £9,000 on ionics system 2 months and lots of problems later he is back up a ladder wishing he'd never heard of ionics
marc would it of made a diffrence if it was another system? did this guy know how to use it? a bad workmen allways blames his tools.
Your gonna love this guys (JM123 an Caustic) tonight while filling my van, IT BROKE "oh no what to do" first time since november......................
the door sort of came of the hose port on the side of the van, months of accidently slamming the side loader into it. I clipped it back in and its good as new, happy days. My gaurentee is still live still november aswell, sweet.
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Another bad day at work then Caustic ;D
A tiny plastic door thing came out thats the only thing thats broke in 10months of daily use, which i fixed in 10seconds, tell me your system has never had a problem, do you have side ports on your van or do you have to have the door open?
this pic is for you Caustic you know you want one think of the marketing power of it, Im glad i bought mine
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:-X :-X ;D ;D ;D jack can you really see all that, its only a logo mate it isnt surrposed to be a text book picture of how to use wfp, its purpose is to stand out, brand itself etc
You guys are missing alot about the marketing its not the logo, its the name, the U.S.P's etc "The Reach and Wash System" sells if you can sell it, trust me I've took her to market a few times. ;D
YOU BUNCH OF TIGHT OLD GITS, YOU CANT TAKE IT WITH YOU!!!!!
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this pic is for you Caustic you know you want one think of the marketing power of it, Im glad i bought mine
i know of TWO local lads near me, they DIY'd a system (i know i helped them)
took a irongics brochure to a sign writer and had him do thema BIG van sticker
they saved a few quid on the IMAGE though ;)
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Buying "Reach and Wash" from Ionics is in my view similar to buying IBM for a personal computer... it does the job well but it is not necessary and is more expensive than other good/adequate manufacturers.
If I was a wet behind the ears trad. guy and didn't know of this forum or have a few "in the know" w/c friends I might feel safer going that way.
Frankly I've got more useful things to use the extra cash for - like my own advertising, marketing or vehicle.
Some manufacturers are a "bit up themselves" and those they've supplied don't want to feel they've been seen coming. (IMHO)
Before too long "Reach and Wash" may well occupy the same place in wfp as Hoover do in vacuuming - a large player (and good for them!) - but by no means necessarily the best value for the discerning buyer.
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Before too long "Reach and Wash" may well occupy the same place in wfp as Hoover do in vacuuming - a large player (and good for them!) - but by no means necessarily the best value for the discerning buyer.
How very true!!
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I have a mate who 3 years ago set up with an Ionics system...great no probs, simple. End of story.
Oh apart from a large bill from them once they had finished with the van.
I spent less money setting up 3 vehicles and a trolley system and have had the same result with more take home profit.
It all comes down to what you want image or profit??
Will image get you more profit in the long run? I now do far more high-end commercial work then my friend with his Ionics set-up.
Alex
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Alex
That would be more down to your business accumin if thats how you spell it, wether you have one van or three
that in itself will not get you work.
First rule of business dont slate the opposition, It doesnt look good
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First rule of business dont slate the opposition, It doesnt look good
I for one am always singing your praises as I have always had great dealings with your company Alex.
Have to say, your posting isn't very professional in this instance?
Trev
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persoanlly i see nothing wrong with what Alex has said
he has just told a story about some1 he knows
he hasnt made a opinion about it, apart for the large bill, its no secret ioincs cost a bomb
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you guys running around in older vehicles and using home made gear must pay an awful lot of tax. how do you minimise your tax bill? ????
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Hi guys, (Trevor, Dave)
My intention of posting was not to 'slate' Ionics, I never have, their products are fantastic. It was to point out that if you pay the money (which you have to do) you do get an easy problem free result. I was actually trying to fair to them. Having read the earlier posts it seemed that people were being unfairly critical of Ionics and their advertising.
The fact is, Ionics is a very successful and respectable company who supply a top end product. My mate who bought from them did so after seeing my complete set-up and seeking my advice, but he wanted a completely hassle free option, the DIY option is not hassle free. He had the money and so went for that option and I have to say he has never regretted it.
I personally would rather have a couple of holidays a year and have a little hassle in setting up my system, but that has to be my choice and I wouldn't criticize anyone who chose to do things differently.
Criticize 'Ionics' all you like, but ask yourself would you be using WFP if it wasn't for Ionics, Omnipole and Tucker I know that I certainly wouldn't.
On the Tax issue, spending £10,000 on a van will only save you £1160 a year in tax (first year), which would you rather have £8840 in your pocket or a posh van?
Alex
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lease purchase.
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operating lease payments are tax deductible just like depreciation charges but are made with pre- tax money.
cash purchases in contrast are made with after tax money.
leasing means no capital tied up in van.
pay youself not gordon.
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Hi Caustic,
The van and tax were a separate issue with Graham!
I agree with you on not spending more than needed as you can see from our core business, but Ionics do make great equipment.
Graham,
with Leasing if you spend £300 a month on a van lease it will still only save you £870 off your tax bill so you have the option of £2730 in your pocket after tax each year or a posh new van. Or am I missing something? I hope I am, so that I can justify going and buying a fleet of brand new vans for our commercial work!
Alex
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Or even better way go to the auctions and get a 3yr old van for around
£3k-£4k, models like the vivaro. Best auctions to look for are the ones that
sell ex police or lease vans, these always come with service history.
They sell them after 3 yrs because that's when the manufacturing warranty
runs out. Then do the 40p per mile claim against the tax man.
10,000m x 0.40p =£4000 5,000m x 0.25p = £1,250
So in the first year you have recovered the cost of your van, tax ins etc... Next
year is profit ;D
Look into buying leasing and after speaking to a company director and went for
the above option. Very wise words ;D
Doug
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I have just realised i have lost £30 a week in depreciation on my van, this equates to £1500 a year, I have to mot it and fix it as it breaks, so in reality that could be more than £20 a week. So the total is £50 a week running costs
If i bought a new van for £15'000 and kept it for 3 years i could resell for £9'000, so that is a loss of £6000 which is £2000 a year which is £40 a week depreciation, I would not have to mot it or repair it, i would have to pay for servicing which is about £500 a year so there is another £10 a week, so that makes £50 a week like the older van.
Now the newer van will cost more to insure but this will be offset by the better fuel economy of the newer van.
Of course all this is tax deductable and ultimately a lower tax payer will pay in real terms £33.50 a week for a brand new van or an old banger, do the maths the figures arent much difference, i know which road i am going down.
A higher rate tax payer will pay even less in real terms £25 a week after tax allowance.
All these figures are guesstimates.
Its similar with a wfp system, after tax allowances a brand new system will cost half the price for a higher rate tax payer after the system gets to the end of its life.
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I have just realised i have lost £30 a week in depreciation on my van, this equates to £1500 a year, I have to mot it and fix it as it breaks, so in reality that could be than £20 a week. So the total is £50 a week running costs
If i bought a new van for £15'000 and kept it for 3 years i could resell for £9'000, so that is a loss of £6000 which is £2000 a year which is £40 a week depreciation, I would not have to mot it or repair it, i would have to pay for servicing which is about £500 a year so there is another £10 a week, so that makes £50 a week like the older van.
Now the newer van will cost more to insure but this will be offset by the better fuel economy of the newer van.
Of course all this is tax deductable and ultimately a lower tax payer will pay in real terms £33.50 a week for a brand new van or an old banger, do the maths the figures arent much difference, i know which road i am going down.
A higher rate tax payer will pay even less in real terms £25 a week after tax allowance.
All these figures are guesstimates.
Its similar with a wfp system, after tax allowances a brand new system will cost half the price for a higher rate tax payer after the system gets to the end of its life.
uh???????????
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Quick question Dave, don't know if you know the answer to this but something
I was looking into but never found the result.
As stated you buy the van for £15,000, depreciation 3yrs x £1,500 = £4500
You sell the van after 3 yrs for £9,000 so £6,000 difference from when you
first bought the van. Have only claimed £4,500 depreciation so could you
claim for the difference between £6,000 and £4,500.
I know if the depreciation value of your van in your accounts was lower
than your selling price you would have to add this as profit on your
accounts.
Hope this makes sense.
Doug
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Doug
You assume correct, if you sell for a lower price than what you have claimed for in depreciation, yes you can claim an allowance on the shortfall. Ie lost £6000 over 3 years but you only claimed the allowance on 3 Times £1500 = £4500, you are entitled to claim back the allowance on the extra £1500, if that makes sense, It is hard to describe in writing these money thinks lol.
It is always best to use an accountant, this is one case where a slight missunderstanding of how much you could claim could cost you quite a considerable sum
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I have just realised i have lost £30 a week in depreciation on my van, this equates to £1500 a year, I have to mot it and fix it as it breaks, so in reality that could be than £20 a week. So the total is £50 a week running costs
If i bought a new van for £15'000 and kept it for 3 years i could resell for £9'000, so that is a loss of £6000 which is £2000 a year which is £40 a week depreciation, I would not have to mot it or repair it, i would have to pay for servicing which is about £500 a year so there is another £10 a week, so that makes £50 a week like the older van.
Now the newer van will cost more to insure but this will be offset by the better fuel economy of the newer van.
Of course all this is tax deductable and ultimately a lower tax payer will pay in real terms £33.50 a week for a brand new van or an old banger, do the maths the figures arent much difference, i know which road i am going down.
A higher rate tax payer will pay even less in real terms £25 a week after tax allowance.
All these figures are guesstimates.
Its similar with a wfp system, after tax allowances a brand new system will cost half the price for a higher rate tax payer after the system gets to the end of its life.
uh???????????
lol, i'm still trying to get my head round this too. :o
Is it best to hire purchase then, or lease???
I'm soon to be buying another van and i'm scratching my head now.
Back to the topic.
Being expensive is not a problem as long as there is choice.
Are you on a crusade caustic? ;)
There is more to admire about ionics than there is to criticise.
There would be no criticisms if their kits were being sold at gardiners prices.
Someone has worked hard to get them where they are. Fair play to them.
mark
ps
can their logo be used by non ionic users if they have their own company name in place of "reach and wash" ??