Clean It Up
UK General Cleaning Forum => General Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Sarah S & P Cleaning on August 09, 2006, 12:08:51 pm
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Hi Guys,
I need a bit of advice, on June the 1st i started a daily office contract for a company nearby.
The contract is for seven days a wk 4 hrs per day and when the terms were agreed i sent out our contract to there head of purchases who deals with all the branches contractors.
Our terms state we work by calendar month and invoice at the end of each month and payment must be recieved 28 days from the date of invoice.
It is now the 9th August and we still havent recieved any payment or any signed contracts.
I have rung the relevant person who has now dicided to twll me that they pay 60 days after they have recieved the first invoice which would make it around the beginning of September they have said and would be going into the fourth month and we wouldnt have been paid.
Does anyone else think that if this so called procedure that they follow is correct that they should have informed us before now and not accepted our contract.
Please help as im getting nowhere with them.
I sent the 2nd invoice at the end of July, will be sending the 3rd in 3 wks and still havent recieved a cheque for the 1st.
What would you do ?
Sarah
S & P Cleaning Services >:( >:( >:(
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If your invoicing them and notified 28 days how can they dictate to you when you will be paid (i.e 60 days)?
???
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Sounds like the battle of the forms is being played out here, Sarah, you should never start the work until you have agreed terms.
I wonder how they would react if you decided to obtain three months payment before starting the work?
Perhaps this is the reason why they had to change contractors?
The solution?
Depends on a number of factors, can your profit stand the fact that you are giving them 90 days credit?
The next question is how trustworthy are these people, you state that they mentioned none of this when you first got the contract, alarm bells should start ringing, did you perform a credit check on this company?
If they expect extended credit from you, what did they give you as an incentive for these special terms? Another site, carpet cleaning?
Never, ever, give something for nothing, you should make it clear, you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours.
Cashflow is king!
30 days is the industry norm, you should stick to this, unless there is a very good reason for not doing so, no point in having the contract unless it is sustainable, all it takes is a couple of late payers, and you could find yourself in trouble.
You could also remind them of your intention to charge interest on any and all late payments, thing is, even if you walk off site, they still owe you, for work already completed, just one more piece of bad news Sarah, they have not accepted your contract either, good luck on this one, and remeber all that glistens is not gold, best of luck.
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Hi Sarah
In my experience most companies will take around 50- 75 days to pay you
regardless of what they tell you.
If you are making a good mark up on the contract it might be worth just
suffering the annoyance.
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Is that from the start date or after invoice?
Weve been offered another contract recently from Stockport Council who pay by chaps within 14 days from invoice, i think we will be accepting and removing all stock from the non pay site this afternoon as they are now ignoring my calls and telling me each week they are sending payment and then not doing.
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if u havent got a signed contract rewrite new one with increased prices to cover your costs and take it to the person that deals with it and remember them that u have just started out and cash flow low(wee white lie)
George GMCcleaning
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14 days from invoice very good wish all clients were like that well done.
George GMC cleaning
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Unfortunatly sarah its the norm im afraid, i have only around 40-60% who pay within the 30 days stipulated, Every month we are chasing money owed, which affects cash flow etc, recently though more and more are coming round to paying direct, The thing is to make sure you chase them every month, make it the same time, if you dont chase them they tend not to pay until you do!
Dont forget there is always the small claims court, i am chasing a March invoice today!!
It always seems to be the bigger more established companies that fart about, to them the cleaning company is bottom of the pile when it comes to payement >:(
chris
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Hi Sarah,
I disagree with the fact that its the norm to wait for your money, i have only 1 client at the moment who takes over 30 days and they will be educated to change that very soon.
Kind regards Mark.
ps you have mail.
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Although this probably wont help you on this job.
Getting paid on time is the one thing we all need, what works for us 9 times out of ten is:
Try using this in your terms and conditions-
We: reserve the right to suspend our service/s if payments are not received within our payment terms and/or charge you statutory interest on late payments.
OR:
1. Payment under this contract is due within xx days of the issue date of any invoice. If any payment is not received within this time the company reserves the right to discontinue work and claim the sum for all work completed to the date of the termination plus such amounts as may be due under the terms of the contract. Such action by the company will neither invalidate nor constitute a breach of the contract.
When the customer is one day late, send a letter or fax, stating that payment is now overdue and remind them that under the terms of the contract you reserve the right to withdraw your service until cleared funds have been received, they will pay you believe me.
If not pull your cleaners out until you get payment, they wont do it again.
Regards
BSF
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Great advice there, this method does work (9 times out of 10) and it often instills a certain sense of respect for you and your staff. After all you are providing a professional service and should be treated as a professional. Its a 2 way street, respect works both ways.
Good luck.
Andy
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Hi Sarah
Stop there and think about your invoicing - you started 1st June - you didn't invoice until 30th June and expected your first invoice to be paid 1st Aug? The company you have started work for are prob used to 60 days so you need to educate them - yes? - NO
You should invoice from 1st June for that month stating that you expect payment on 30 day basis (eg 1st July) when they need extra time to set up payment and new supplier etc then fine you can afford to give it on this occasion, thereafter insist on 30 days but always invoice at the beginning of the month.
I have been in this industry for years and haven't had to pull cleaners out yet over payment problems (not that I haven't had them I have just toughed it out), you will find yourself with notice pretty quickly over what larger companies think is a petty problem (to them - not you!). Keep nagging and get the invoices out in advance.
Fox
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Invoice on the start day, with 35 or 44 day terms, if you include what I have posted in future terms and conditions you wont have a problem, ie: we reserve the right to suspend… etc… etc..
You wont be binned for threatening to pull your cleaners out due to non payment, I work for many large companies and they always pay on time because of this clause, all switched on cleaning companies include this in terms and conditions, it is there as a last resort, if you do have problems they will pay you if you point out that the service will be suspended.
Its not that you expect payment as Fox has pointed out, its if I don’t get payment you wont receive your service: simple as that….
its not rocket science ;D
regards
BSF
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lol - rocket science - no?
Whoops I'm in the wrong business then!
I don't 'work' for many large many companies - I provide them with a service - and yes you will get 'binned' if you actually pull the cleaners rather than threaten.
Fox
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Is that right ;D
I have like you never had to pull my cleaners out of a contract, because like I said if I want paying, the threat of exercising my right under the legally binding contract with the customer to withdraw my staff and still charge them if they dont pay on time usually works.
I am just trying to help people to get paid... why try to pick holes in what I am saying ???
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Just to let you all know that i sent out a letter two weeks ago to state that payments must be on time and was ignored so earlier today i removed all stock and suspended the contract and guess what i had a phone call about an hour ago which is well out of there office hours apologising severely and promising payment tommorrow and on time from now on, so it did work which im quite chuffed about.
If any client ignores me and fails to pay i will do the binning as i can replace them within the fortnight of walking and would prefer to suffer than to carry on giving a service, stock and staff for no return.
I have learned my lesson and payment terms will be made very clear in future to all potential clients.
:) :) :)
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Just to let you all know that i sent out a letter two weeks ago to state that payments must be on time and was ignored so earlier today i removed all stock and suspended the contract and guess what i had a phone call about an hour ago which is well out of there office hours apologising severely and promising payment tommorrow and on time from now on, so it did work which im quite chuffed about.
If any client ignores me and fails to pay i will do the binning as i can replace them within the fortnight of walking and would prefer to suffer than to carry on giving a service, stock and staff for no return.
I have learned my lesson and payment terms will be made very clear in future to all potential clients.
:) :) :)
Good on you ;D
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Hi honey - nice to talk once again
You know me - pick holes where I can! ;)
I have a clause, much like you, stating much the same about non payment - like all swiched on companies!
My advice to Sarah is - have the clause, don't use it if poss, change your invoicing terms, if you really can't work with the company then give proper notice, they have not (from the info in your post) withheld payment long enough for a court to grant you full notice payment for breach of contract.
Fox
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Just read your post Sarah
Nice one - glad it worked for you :)
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Thanks guys love you all :-* :-* :-*
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Hi honey - nice to talk once again
You know me - pick holes where I can! ;)
I have a clause, much like you, stating much the same about non payment - like all swiched on companies!
My advice to Sarah is - have the clause, don't use it if poss, change your invoicing terms, if you really can't work with the company then give proper notice, they have not (from the info in your post) withheld payment long enough for a court to grant you full notice payment for breach of contract.
Fox
;D
Nice to talk Fox, ive missed you ;)
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Ahh isn’t that sweet, however slightly disappointing BSF, surely your stand up straight backed righteous quest for truth and honour amongst cleaners in the face of so much criticism, doesn’t have a weakness does it? It cant be as simple as "Hi honey" that turns you into a girl thingycat can it! (lol I actually wrote a different word, big brother watch out)
If it is , then aren’t some people gonna have fun with you sweetie ;)
Having made the decision on one occasion of pulling 12 specialist cleaners from a site (without adequate notice) due to none payment and then being dragged through a very rapid legal process because of it, I can tell you its not as simple as you think.
It appears that the law do not favour anyone who would cause deterioration of hygiene, welfare or the environment in general within a work place and especially over money.
As far as they are concerned you as a contractor should have your act together and have mechanism's in place to resolve all issues without bringing about such a situation. In the event that agreement cannot be found, then you must provide an adequate notice period, to enable replacement.
All this of course depends on who has knowledge of the likely outcome should it become legal, and therefore posturing and threats only have any real effect with idiot to idiot and are usually caused by an inadequate contract if any at all.
However the odd bluff still works now and then ;D
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Hi Sarah
We put in our contracts interest charges bank of england base rate most people pay up after first month of fines
Hope this help
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Ahh isn’t that sweet, however slightly disappointing BSF, surely your stand up straight backed righteous quest for truth and honour amongst cleaners in the face of so much criticism, doesn’t have a weakness does it? It cant be as simple as "Hi honey" that turns you into a girl thingycat can it! (lol I actually wrote a different word, big brother watch out)
If it is , then aren’t some people gonna have fun with you sweetie ;)
Having made the decision on one occasion of pulling 12 specialist cleaners from a site (without adequate notice) due to none payment and then being dragged through a very rapid legal process because of it, I can tell you its not as simple as you think.
It appears that the law do not favour anyone who would cause deterioration of hygiene, welfare or the environment in general within a work place and especially over money.
As far as they are concerned you as a contractor should have your act together and have mechanism's in place to resolve all issues without bringing about such a situation. In the event that agreement cannot be found, then you must provide an adequate notice period, to enable replacement.
All this of course depends on who has knowledge of the likely outcome should it become legal, and therefore posturing and threats only have any real effect with idiot to idiot and are usually caused by an inadequate contract if any at all.
However the odd bluff still works now and then ;D
Hi DP,
If it clearly states in your terms and conditions that you reserve the right to suspend the service due to non payment, then I or anyone else wouldn’t/shouldn’t have a problem in doing it.
The threat of this has always worked for me, I was just trying to advise people on a very common method of being paid on time, which does work.
No, the honey thing doesn’t win me over DP sorry to dissatisfy :o I assume their was some mockery in that particular post, I was just going with the flow, but hey it is ok to be nice sometimes ;D
Regards
BSF
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could this be the first time BSF has made a sensible and usefull response :-\
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Anyone remember the Simpsons episode where Homer stores all his anger up . .. I sense something similar . .. ;D
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Thank heavens BSF I thought you were playing the part of the stereo typical male for a moment then " blow them a kiss and watch them turn into something pathetic". I’m not dissatisfied, I’m relieved ;)
As mentioned the bluff does work. but try it on someone who knows their stuff and they will dismiss you out of hand with their only real fear being that you maybe just stupid enough not to know the consequences if you try it.
Most grown up facilities managers will be aware of this, and if they have proper issues with you, any kind of threat will hold no relevance to them.
I am the first one to advocate that terms and conditions are binding (more then people understand) however having been through the mill on this one, I can tell you that unless you give an adequate notice period, then you better have a healthy bank account if someone calls your bluff. Your T&C,s will only hold up legally if they include a reasonable notice period, and if they do then there wouldn’t be a problem.
BSF you went from a very assertive post:
Invoice on the start day, with 35 or 44 day terms, if you include what I have posted in future terms and conditions you wont have a problem, ie: we reserve the right to suspend… etc… etc..
To:
If it clearly states in your terms and conditions that you reserve the right to suspend the service due to non payment, then I or anyone else wouldn’t/shouldn’t have a problem in doing it.
Which actually reads to me as "I really don’t know, but it should be ok"
Well it is as long as it remains a bluff. My little experience cost me nearly £3k and we had to return to site (or face considerable additional costs) without any preconditions and still without payment for another 10 days.
BSF
Its fine to be nice to people but dangerous to mislead them as you know! Remember CMS?
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DP,
You said about an adequate period of notice if it did come to the point of withdrawing cleaners.
What amount of notice would you have to give?
Arthur
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I have deliberately stayed away from the actual time issue, as its a bit of a grey area. It appears that 3 months is an acceptable period either way and is common with many commercial cleaning contracts as in our own. However what I cant tell you is what is an acceptable amount (tried and tested) less than this, although I believe it could be as little as one month.
I cant even reflect on my own incident because we were viewed as the offending party, we were ordered back to work indefinitely (or face endless costs), until our client could make other arrangements. Although from memory it wasn’t long I think about 2 weeks.
However no doubt we would of had a case, had they taken too long.
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Thanks DP
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Hi Sarah,
Im Glad you got the payments sorted, i see your not that far away from me.
Do you just do cleaning or are also involved in carpet cleaning ?
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Hi DP,
Thanks your post is very interesting and helpful to me and other members, I have only ever used it as a threat and it has always worked.
Regards
BSF ;D
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could this be the first time BSF has made a sensible and usefull response :-\
Hi Mr Jones,
I have been giving advice for a couple years on this forum (not always as this user name) and many other forums for a lot longer, not always about cleaning/business matters though, as I do have other strings to my bow ;D
kind regards
BSF ;)
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Hi Paul,
At the moment we just do cleaning, mainly Office contracts and recreation centres which is where most of our experience is based.
I have tried carpet cleaning in the past but it was a sub contract for banks and building societys and just didnt quite like it.
I guess im not supposed to like everything i do and moneys money but at least it leaves more carpet cleaning work around for people like yourselves. :) :) :)