Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Extremeclean on July 30, 2006, 01:34:05 pm
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Hello all
I have been avidly reading the many posts on this forum during the past week or so as I have been doing some research to help me make a signifigant business decision.
One overbearing thought is in my mind and I would like to share it with you all.
I believe that by the end of this decade the world of domestic window cleaning will be very different to the one we have now. The change is already happening and can only coninue to do so in my and many others opinions.
I often see posts referring to commercial work and how lucrative it can be. Many people therefore aspire to aquiring this pot of gold. It is a natural thing to do not only for the perceived financial rewards but also for the status associated with it.
There is also a distinction made in the mind of most between commercial and domestic work as far as competeing for it goes. Two things here. Firstly commercial work in the main is very competetive and price sensitive. Yes of course there is the odd one that is a real money spinner but in general this is the exception. Profit margins are normally very small so to make money you have to be very efficient. Customer loyalty is also a big issue in commercial work or rather the lack of it. Why? Competition is the answer. This is always seen to be OK by most window cleaners.
This brings me onto the 2nd point here. This competition is now beginning to surface in the domestic market and will continue to do so.
Many astute businessmen are now recognising the enormous size of the domestic market and are making inroads into it. I will give you an example. An aquaintance of mine has never cleaned a window in his life for pay. He set up a domestic window cleaning business just over 2 years ago and now has a customer base approaching 7000 and a turnover of around 2 million a year and is growing rapidly. How has he achieved this? He has applied good business sense. That is all really. Nothing more or less. His growth is not surprising to me. The market is there to be fulfilled.
The advent of affordable entry level WFP equipment and new regulations are also major factors. Hungry and ambitious individuals and I believe some corporations are setting themselves up to make signifigant inroads into this market. I am "old school" to an extent but recognise the challenges ahead and I am taking steps to face them. I do also operate in the domestic market and intend to invest heavilly to protect and grow my market share.
How many of you now get your milk from the supermarket rather than the good old door to door milkman? Most I would think. Do you do the major part of your shopping at the supermarket only popping to the local corner shop for a few items? These are just 2 examples of what used to be classed as institutions and are now in severe decline. There are many more of these and window cleaning will go the same way. Regulation, technology, demand, labour cost etc all will play their part in the inevitable.
This is my opinion and you may disagree with it thinking that no-one will ever be able to take your customers from you. I have watched our industry change and moved with the times in order to stay ahead of the competition. I know that many here will already have recognised what I am saying. They are investing in their businesses and not burying their heads in the sand.
You are going to have to fight just as hard to protect your domestic customer base as those involved in commercial work already do. My advice is. Be prepared.
I know this will probably provoke some entertaining replies. It is my honest belief and has been posted as such.
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7000 clients in two years!. Allowing for attrition, that probably equates to about 100 new clients on average per week. Any insight it to how his business is structured?. He must have his marketing & his organisational skills spot on.
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Hello Simon
I see by your previous posts that you employ a number of people yourself.
I hope you understand that I can't go into the nitty gritty of exactly how he has done it. That to my mind would be a betrayal of confidence.
What I can say is that he does invest very heavilly in marketing. A combination of effective marketing tools as well. Yes he does run a very tight ship as well. He has invested again very heavily in technology not the least part of which was a totally bespoke computer system that basically takes almost all manual input out of the equation. He puts back into the business a large proportion of income to ensure that he can take care of the basics.
The last time I talked to him a few weeks ago his average new customer intake per week was around 200. He does account for attrition in his business plan as well.
As an employer yourself you no doubt realise just how important a good business plan is to both monitor and grow any serious business.
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Hi Etremeclean
Can I ask what part of the UK your aquaintance works in?
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Etremeclean
Are you now going to tell us you can how he has done it ( for a price )
I do a mixture of Commercial & Domestic.
By far the best payers are the domestic cusomers.
With Commercial work you can wait up to 60 days for payment.
Domestic most of the time its payment as soon as you have finished the job
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Hi Etremeclean
Can I ask what part of the UK your aquaintance works in?
The South East. The only real restraining factor he has is recruiting quality staff but then again we all have that problem.
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Etremeclean
Are you now going to tell us you can how he has done it ( for a price )
I do a mixture of Commercial & Domestic.
By far the best payers are the domestic cusomers.
With Commercial work you can wait up to 60 days for payment.
Domestic most of the time its payment as soon as you have finished the job
Hello John.
He mortgaged his house to the hilt. Went to a bank with a realistic business plan and got their backing in the form of a large loan and overdraft. He had done his market research and then put his plan into action. Hired good marketing staff, good cleaning and admin staff. Bought equipment and all that goes with it.
12 to 14 hour days seven days a week for a long time as well. It's only recently that he has been able to start to take it a bit easier. I remember when I was as enthusiastic and dedicated as he is. His success does demonstrate that a lot can be done in a relatively short time and also that the market is there.
I agree with you very much about the commercial work. I tried to point that out in my opening post in this thread. The real money I think is in domestic work. What I am trying to point out is that entrepenaureal << is that how you spell it? people are recognising the potential of this market and we will see much more competition in the next few years in the domestic sector of our work. We all need to be prepared for this and take steps now rather than too late.
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Every day I think I am going to work that bit longer,or do a bit more canvassing . But I am at the age now when I think I have earned x ammount and am happy with that its time to go home .
On the other forum is a very motivated man
Paul C Smith , his posts are really good reading everytime I read one of his posts it makes me think I should do more
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I'm not sure that I agree with much of what you have stated, very few people will havethe ability to build a business of that size in a totally labour intensive industry, not forgetting that if you are employing then you also have to supply vehicles and equipment, all of these things push up your overheads particularly in the domestic arena.
Employing people is expensive, on the other forum another guy detailed why he was several pounds more expensive on domestic work than the majority of window cleaners, basically you simply cannot compete purely on price, one man outfits will always be able to work cheaper (and still make good money) than the big firms that employ dozens of window cleaners.
So in that respect the domestic market will not change that much, big firms will not compete.
7000 domestic customers, 200 new ones a week???
You are almost talking about employing a new window cleaner every week, then he has to be trained, that alone will take a couple of months before he reaches a competant level.
I have employed a great many over the years, some may last a few years, others may only last a day, some you have to sack for incompetance, overseeing the work they do is also time consuming, if this isn't done they will screw you over and cut corners, leading to lost customers and so on.
7000 customers in two years?
if that is in a domestic market that is an average price of £23 per customer per month (£2,000,000 per year)
I'm sorry, but I don't believe your tale, and in the unlikely event you are on the up and up, very few will will get even remotely close to that.
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from my point of view, my commercail pay ALOT more then my domestic
ask me which i prefere though
Domestic Every day of the week
they are "semi" loyal (the odd bad apple still spoils my day)
Im helping a guy start up right now, i worked with him in the building trade, and he is fed up with the poor pay and poor hours
stories of 7000 customers in two years make this job sound great, in reality, that doesnt happen
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This is now getting interesting as I predicted it would.
I cannot verify the accuracy of the info I have been given. As I said the person in question is a mere aquaintance of mine. I have seen his pricing structure and when I first saw it my reply was that no way would people pay it. It is a few weeks since I spoke to him on the phone. I was told that in May he put 3 new vans on the road and planned for 3 per month for the foreseeable future. For all I know he could be in financial trouble although I doubt that he is.
What I am trying to illustrate here is that some very talented and driven people and organisations are now recognising the potential of our market. I like John Garnett had got to the stage where I earned enough and to be honest had got rather complacent. In fact what I am far more concerned about is the availability of very cheap labour from Eastern Europe. I know of quite a few window cleaning companies who now employ them and prefer them to our native workforce not so much for the money aspect but the willingness of them to do a very good job for their employers. You only have to look at the downturn in the previously astronomical earnings of plumbers in and around London to see the effect this can have. I have had all of the problems with employees that Ian Giles has mentioned so I understand his scepticism.
I still believe that our market will change and that the demands on us to remain viable will increase. Many of my aquaintances are sick of the competetive nature of the commercial market and it's cash flow problems and are are looking to diversify. It's all a wake up call to me and I for one don't intend to roll over and give up. I see where I need to change. Both in my attitude and working practices.
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well thats it then, if the east europeans are in the area, cut your prices by half. I know I lost 44 three stories to them.
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I managed to read through the essay (gave war & peace a run for it's money) & as my old dad would say "Where did you read that, Billy's Weekly Liar".
There is no way you can pick that much work up in the space of two years, marketing or no marketing.
The very nature of window cleaning means it will always allow the single trader to earn a decent living with the flexibility to enjoy their life to the full. Some may choose to employ people, that is their perogative, but it's not for me & I suspect a great many on this forum. Our livelyhood will still be there in another 20 years time.
The only sector I can really see changing is with commercial work & the use of WFP. I can forsee a time in the not too distant future when if you don't use a WFP you needn't bother trying to quote for WFP work.
Most of us have worked for ourselves for many years & have developed good rounds with great customers & scare stories of assylum seekers working for pennies pinching our work are frankly ridiculous
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Most of us have worked for ourselves for many years & have developed good rounds with great customers & scare stories of assylum seekers working for pennies pinching our work are frankly ridiculous
But the big boys will jump at the chance to employ people who will only demand possibly half of the present going wage rate. Thats where the change will be apparent.
Like you I cannot foresee a time when the domestic - sole operator market will be threatened by immigrants.
JohnL
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I find this very hard to believe, and I am just waiting for you to make us all the offer of this fantastic fortune spinner, no insult intended but you really do sound like a sale's rep.
I have had customers in the domestic and commercial market from day one and that was nine years ago,
I have seen other window cleaners come and go in my erea, I have also seen window cleaning company's come and go, the thing is that my customers have given me loyalty, they have been touted by cheaper wc including the shops that I do, but because I am regular and must do a good job they have turned them away. now thats loyalty,
One thing you havn't mentioned is his loss of customer base, There is no way on this earth that he can keep them all happy and there must be a loss % unless he has loyal staff, and a few guy's on here will tell you that is very difficult to achive on a small basis never mind a large basis this guy is supposedly working on.
There still is a vast market out there, but I doubt very much if one guy aloan could build up a £2.000.000 business in two years, I am sure most of the guy's on here would love to earn just a quarter of that?
These are just my thoughts and opinions, and are not meant as an insult to you or your intelligence.
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No I am selling nothing at all.
The bulk of the replies dont susprise me at all.
As for customer loyalty. Just wait for the fully WFP equipped sign written vans staffed by presentable uniformed staff that are prepared to work for for a wage that will allow a well run company to do just as good a job at say two thirds of your prices because their equipment allows them to underprice you because of productitivity. I did say by the end of the decade at the start. WFP will be the accepted method of cleaning domestics by then. Watch the way regulations move the industry towards this.
I have been trialling WFP equipment on my domestic work for some time now and have proved to myself the increase in productivity so I am ready to accept the challenges ahead in the knowledge that if competition means that I will have to cut prices to retain customers I will still have a viable business. This happens all the time in the commercial market. My prediction still is that this will migrate to the domestic market over the next 3 or 4 years.
Do as you please.
Good luck to you all with your busnesses.
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I completely agree with you that WFP is the way forward. For those of us that clean commercial premises it will be a requirement & for those that do domestic work it will be advantageous.
I am currently switching all my work over to WFP & it will make my life easier & I will be able to earn more money.
I think the main problem I have with your posting is how it reads. It is full of business buzz words & terms that have more to do with the city than with WCing. Let's not kid ourselves, that's all I'm trying to say.
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Most of us have worked for ourselves for many years & have developed good rounds with great customers & scare stories of assylum seekers working for pennies pinching our work are frankly ridiculous.
Assylum seeker's are forbidden to work by law. If any are working then they do so illegally. Dai
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Extreme clean , are you sure you are not this person who has the multi million pound company ?
It just seems that you know far too much about this persons company , why do you not work for him ?
I smell arat is all !
Rich P @ F
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extremeclean, you sliped up, it is you
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e148/jouk45/arrow-animation-1.gif)
so I am ready to accept the challenges ahead
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There is another "army" of workers yet to emerge and work to their full potential they are waiting in the wings. They are generally underpaid and undervalued but their day will come and will rival the immigrant workforce.
The LADIES are comming, Many of you have wifes and daughters who would love to get involved. But the wfp market place has been a heavy manual affair but with the acceptance of the new lightweight poles and the yet to be developed powered trolleys, I believe that the LADIES will soon become more prevalent in this male dominated market. They work just as hard and may do a better job than many of us.
2 million in 2 years, good luck to the guy, hes prob to busy to be coming onto this community.
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you dont believe about asylumseekers?????. LikeI said I used to kleen 44 three story houses on a brand new estate just outside london, charging £20.00 a house with wfp. After doing them twice nearly all said they wanted to cancel, when asked why the answer was " the bosnians are doing it for a tenner". How would YOU answer that
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Hi Extreme,
Thanks for your posting regarding your colleague and his business.
I have to say, I run a large operation myself, I have 3 vans on the road and look after just over 2000 customers a month. The time it takes me to administer all the paperwork, round maintainance (computerised), dealt with Tax, VAT returns and accountans etc.... as well as actively promoting and looking out for new business I have to take my hat off to your colleague.
In a good month I will bring to the business in the region of 30 - 40 customers and will probably lose about 3-5 customers due to circumstances beyond my control. To have to input 200 new customers a week, employ operatives, train and teach the round along with providing a vehicle and equipment I personally this is unrealistic if not impossible.
I don't wish to knock a fellow window cleaner but have to say I bust my arse building my business and cannot see how I could possibly control this amount of new business.
Best wishes,
Trev
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i agree with jeff
take a look over your shoulder the LADIES are coming.
;D ;D ;D ::) ::) ::)
with pink fluffy dice too ;D
Belinda
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you dont believe about asylumseekers?????. LikeI said I used to kleen 44 three story houses on a brand new estate just outside london, charging £20.00 a house with wfp. After doing them twice nearly all said they wanted to cancel, when asked why the answer was " the bosnians are doing it for a tenner". How would YOU answer that
Well maybe we need to clarify something here. Let's not confuse "asylum seeker" with "immigrants". While someone is awaiting a hearing to decide if asylum will be granted, they are not allowed to work anyway. I suppose that some may do so illegally. Bosnia is not currently part of the EU as far as I'm aware so a Bosnian would need a work permit. If a Bosnian sought asylum, they would not be able to work legally until it was granted. Maybe your Bosnians all have work permits, maybe not. Perhaps we should all expand our businesses and start employing them.
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with pink fluffy dice too,
I for one look forward to that !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
JohnL
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All this high flying talk no doubt will have some truth to it, but at the sales end of any product or service, the client's decision is very much influenced by the personality selling.
How many times have you said, "I didn't buy because I just didn't like the guy".
A couple of years ago I was pricing a job up against a much bigger competitor than me. Their quote for the monthly clean was a third cheaper than mine! You can think what you like, the client chose me, because they didn't like the look or attitude of the "big boys".
There are huge companies selling and fitting kitchens, double glazing, bathrooms, bedrooms etc. But many many people search for the skilled man on his own, and always will.
Go, take over the world if you want to. You can only eat and drink so much, you can only wear one pair of shoes, you can only sleep in one bed and it could be the most luxurious bed in the world, but if you got to it by carving up business from the little men and by being greedy, your night's sleep won't be much more comfortable than someone who sleeps in the gutter
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....but if you got to it by carving up business from the little men and by being greedy, your night's sleep won't be much more comfortable than someone who sleeps in the gutter
How sure are you? ;D
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How sure are you? ;D
I've tried both! 8)
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PJ,
I understand your morals, however, I have to differ on this one.
There is nothing wrong in having goals, setting yourself a target and working towards that. If along the way you stumble over a few people well as long as you don't deliberately hurt them then I see no harm. Business is business after all.
Question for you. How many old age pensioners that queue up every week outside the post office for their pittance of a pension do you think would have changed the way their life has panned out. If given a choice how many would have preferred to retire without worrying about the measley state hand outs?
The difference with our industry is the we are in control of our future, we can make the difference today that will benefit us later on in life.
I for one, will not be stood in that queue. However, I will give those of you that are a polite wave as I drive by.
I am not meaning to sound smug or cocky, I just don't see the problem in being motivated and taking the opportunities that are out there for us to all grab!
Although I have to say 200 new customers a week, well I would like to see that in action, hmmm, what was that that just flew over my head???
Best wishes,
Trev
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I've slept rough, and it's a lot worse than feeling a bit of guilt, especially when you find you've stepped in dog poo and then managed to get it inside your sleeping bag.
Give me guilt anyday.
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But back on-topic, I really don't have any opinions on the subject of this thread, apart from the original post is a bit difficult to believe.
I'd say it would have to be a darn good salesman to wrest enough of my customers away from me, to make me feel the pinch.
I honestly don't think I've anything to worry about.
One thing we've got in our 'favour' is that unlike utility companies, a lot of TRUST is placed on a window cleaner's shoulders.
We have the capability of 'breaking and entering' quite easily, and there's enough old wives tales of window cleaners doing just this.
I think once a customer finds a window cleaner they can trust and does even just a half-decent job; they'll generally stick with that window cleaner; even if they might be more expensive than others in the local area.
The Devil the customers know, is better than the Devil they don't.
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Well there has got to be some supermen on here. 2000 customers a month are they all in the same street because there is no way on this earth those figures can be acheived.
Winter start at 8am finish at 4pm latest thats 3 vans between 2000 customers is 33 units a day 5 days a week non stop per month over 4 units per hour how can this be done without a day off and without breaks,lunches.
I cannot see how these targets or figures can be met.Even with wfp to do a good job stop and collect payment thats about 20 minutes so that makes 3 units per hour.What about travelling or do you have 2000 units right next to each other.,
Its great to see all these figures and sums etc but realistically theya cant be reached unless a bad job is being done,under the minimum wage is being paid.
beats me???????
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PJ,
I understand your morals, however, I have to differ on this one.
Best wishes,
Trev
I wasn't really on a moral crusade there, Trev. Just my take on the wild statements made on this topic. I agree, good to have a plan, but make it a realistic one, not science fiction.
As for trying to beat the system so that you don't end up in the queue at the post office.....well, like many, I clean windows for a residential home, in one room theres an 75 year old who amounted to nothing all his life, next door is a 75 year old man who ran a successful business, owned a nice house etc...You know the rest, they both get the same treatment, one pays the other doesn't. ;)
Sorry folks, bit off topic there, I blame the mods ;D
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The man who is the subject of this thread may be a very good businessman, may have lots of marketing skills etc but I just do not believe his figures.
Targets maybe, reality - no way
JohnL
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I was a lot happier when i was poorer,
I clean for a lot of pensioners and general the poorer ones are as happy as the richer ones, in fact i have got some right misreable ones in million pound houses.
Life is not all about money,
Its about how happy you are.
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I notice that the poor ones are in general a lot happier than the rich ones.
At christmas It's the poor ones that allway's give me a tip apart from the odd big shot.
Once a old lady gave me £20 as a tip and she only just scrapes together £3.50 a month for her oap's bungalows windows to be cleaned.
Give the guy a break who started this topic!
I get 400 customers a week and do them all on my own ;D ;D
Matthew
Clear Vision
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Yep and I was born on the 30th of February!
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Same day as me pj! ;D
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i got to say what a strange topic, and without being unkind to the guy who started it, it reminded me of some sales pitch, I say good luck to the guy earning £2 million a year, if he isnt cleaning any of the windows his self, I wonder just how much of it would be profit, if he is providing wfp systems, vans paying wages for the cleaners and surely wages of full time canvassers, admin staff, insurance cover etc,
It is good to have goals in your working life, and building a round and earning lots of money is one of them, but also building a round to create yourself a great lifestyle is also a great goal. I have learned that the amount of work you have isnt everything, and to wake up in the morning without huge pressures and overheads that some self employed have suits me fine.
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Good balanced reply, saw this somewhere.
"There is only one success- to be able to spend your life in your own way." - Christopher Morely
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Good balanced reply, saw this somewhere.
"There is only one success- to be able to spend your life in your own way." - Christopher Morely
Oi
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What ! where ? ::) oh thats where I saw it, nice one Matt. ;D Got any more ? (sorry its off topic)
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Can someone help, I had 201 new customers contact me today, with my 17 vans and 42 staff I cannot cope. Please give me directions to Dover, need to recruit more staff, or is it easier to go to Calais with a transit?
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What ! where ? ::) oh thats where I saw it, nice one Matt. ;D Got any more ? (sorry its off topic)
credit where is it due :)
and it must lay with Dennis for it :)
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=21715.0
its very apt though ;)
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Can someone help, I had 201 new customers contact me today, with my 17 vans and 42 staff I cannot cope. Please give me directions to Dover, need to recruit more staff, or is it easier to go to Calais with a transit?
i only had 1, though i only worked till 11 and it rained :(
it was a fairly sized house though, 1 to have as a bit of extra, you know, you can take it or leave it, so put in a BIG price :)
im going around on wednesday to price it up
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Change may be on its way, but it will not come the way that as been described on this topic.
It will come from the customer who in 10 years time can pop into Wilkinsons and buy a pole and a cannister of resin to clean his windows for £15.00. £15.00 for a years w cleaning with no risk of falling off a ladder and he will only be to happy to clean his neighbours windows for £2.00 to help recover the cost.
Made in china by the millions.
Make money while you can cos when the domestic work starts drying up we will be undercutting each other for commercial work.
Death of the corner shop,Death of the w/cleaner.
So instead of 200 new customers a week he will be loseing 199.
Nel looking into my crstyal ball.
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It will come from the customer who in 10 years time can pop into Wilkinsons and buy a pole and a cannister of resin to clean his windows for £15.00. £15.00 for a years w cleaning with no risk of falling off a ladder and he will only be to happy to clean his neighbours windows for £2.00 to help recover the cost.
Made in china by the millions.
Nel looking into my crstyal ball.
Nah,
Many people wouldn't be bothered to clean their own windows even if this were available now.
Some of my customers won't even go to the local shop without taking their cars.
People in general are getting lazier and more overweight; we're turning American; obesity is on the increase and will soon be the No 1 UKs biggest killer.
There'll always be a market for residential window cleaners.
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Well there has got to be some supermen on here. 2000 customers a month are they all in the same street because there is no way on this earth those figures can be acheived.
Winter start at 8am finish at 4pm latest thats 3 vans between 2000 customers is 33 units a day 5 days a week non stop per month over 4 units per hour how can this be done without a day off and without breaks,lunches.
I cannot see how these targets or figures can be met.Even with wfp to do a good job stop and collect payment thats about 20 minutes so that makes 3 units per hour.What about travelling or do you have 2000 units right next to each other.,
Its great to see all these figures and sums etc but realistically theya cant be reached unless a bad job is being done,under the minimum wage is being paid.
beats me???????
You are so wrong its unbelievable, any day you wish to come to our office and go out with one of the crews you are more than welcome.
2 guys per Van
5 houses per hour
40 houses per day
4.5 days per week = 180
180 x 4 = 720
x 3 vans = 2160 customers
This is achieved week in week out, when the bad weather sets in we use the 5 week months to catch up.
Why in the world would I say something that I cannot back up!!! Like that makes sense.
I am sick of people knocking others who want to get the most out of this industry.
And just for the record, I lose aprox 3% of customers a year of which 90% are because they are moving home, so yes we do give a good service and clean the windows propeorly and to a high standard.
As for the wages, all my guy's earn £10 per hour, so if thats your idea of minimum wage then yes, thats correct!!
Please, instead of knocking people take a step back and look at why I am doing this and what I want from it, then look at why you are doing this and what you want from it. We may have a different outlook but there is no need for unjust critisism.
The only reason I posted against this was as I said before, a company that commands 200 new customers a week, in my eyes, running a good size business myself, well it just sounded a bit hard to believe. I wasn't on here trying to big up my company!!!!!
Rant over now!
Trev
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Well, just as I predicted a lot of opinion on this.
Even Mr Knight has someone who does not believe him I see.
The response is just as I thought it would be though.
Can't you people understand that there are others out there with enormous energy, ambition and business acumen who will make us all change our ways or go by the wayside?
To clarify I am not the person who I described to you all. I am just a dyed in the wool window cleaner with a decent sized business built up over many years who is seeing the writing on the wall and I want to protect what I have.
A lot of you have said that there will always be a place for the good old local window cleaner. I agree to an extent. There will be a place but I think it will shrink a lot over the next few years.
A lot of your replies have been made from a viewpoint of one man at the helm doing almost everything. If that were the case then yes I would agree that it's impossible to achieve the numbers given. This guy is smart. He delegates everything he can and seems to have a knack of concentrating on the right things at the right times. I admire him but he Bl88dy frightens me and I am seeing more like him coming into this business.
And to just let you all know I may be from Kent now but I am a dragged up in a terraced house Northerner who sometimes says Eee Baaa Gum. I wanted out of the dead end factory jobs that we all seemed to do in my younger days and had a vision. I went for it and did it. Why then cant the guys like him do what they have similar feelings about?
I am enjoying the replies so far. I judge no-one. We all want different things out of life. Some just want more than others materially. It's these B++ggers we have to prepare ourselves for. They ARE coming to a street near us. Probably our own streets as well.
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Its good to here your busy Trev, i,m happy with my 40 a week let alone a day, and theyre all priced correctly and my working week is a doddle if your happy with your lot thats all that matters and there is no need to worry about what anybody else is doing onwards and upwards ;)
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Can't you people understand that there are others out there with enormous energy, ambition and business acumen who will make us all change our ways or go by the wayside?
Extremeclean,
I hear what you're saying, but I think window cleaning is a business that differs from many other businesses.
We do live in a 'shop around' age; where customers can pick and choose stuff such as mobile phones/broadband/home phones/fuel/supermarkets/credit cards/loans/bank accounts and probably lots of other stuff where consumers go for the best value at the cheapest prices.
But window cleaning is inherrently different. The residential customer knows they are limited by choice, cannot get a guarantee that their 'new' window cleaner will be as good, or as honest, as their last, more expensive one and will often stay with their current window cleaner no matter what.
And not only that, it's far more personal. Changing your window cleaner is not like changing your electricity supplier. Even if they do change, they know they've still got to see you working in their street each month, or while shopping in the local supermarket.
I also realise that guys hungry for success will get it. I often wish I had a bit more 'go' than I have. It's easy to fall into the monthly-routine syndrome; but I have no fear of some 'go getter' targetting any of my business.
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you dont believe about asylumseekers?????. LikeI said I used to kleen 44 three story houses on a brand new estate just outside london, charging £20.00 a house with wfp. After doing them twice nearly all said they wanted to cancel, when asked why the answer was " the bosnians are doing it for a tenner". How would YOU answer that
Tosh are you sure ? How do we know that Extremes friend isnt capitalising on the market forces.
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you dont believe about asylumseekers?????. LikeI said I used to kleen 44 three story houses on a brand new estate just outside london, charging £20.00 a house with wfp. After doing them twice nearly all said they wanted to cancel, when asked why the answer was " the bosnians are doing it for a tenner". How would YOU answer that
Tosh are you sure ? How do we know that Extremes friend isnt capitalising on the market forces.
I'm 90% sure, but only time will tell, to be honest!
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I take my hat off to guys like Trev.
He wants to make a good living and have a secure future. Fair dincum. He puts in the time and gets the rewards.
But for all of us its about choice of how hard we want to work and what we want out of it. For me its not just about money, granted I own my own home lock stock and barrell, I have a good income, I reguerly earn 1k a week now without breaking a sweat.
I could canvass take people on and earn 4k a week. But I chose not to. I like being a one man band,I love w/c because their is no stress involved. Get an awkard customer kick them into touch. I love working outdoors it feels real, the sky the clouds are my celing not some papered wallpaper. The birds the trees are sounds I love to here at work.
People are head of big busnisses the world over. Good for them, are they happy, are they content. Is the man happy who earns a million £ or will he only be happy with a billion£.
The quality of your life is more important then the x amount of £s you earn. Does the guy who puts all the effort in building up a business empire put the same effort into having a good realationship with his wife and kids. How many real freinds will he have?
Life is about choice but most people are driven by commercialism and trying to earn an ever expanding wage they miss out on whats important. Wc will survive cos the true gems will allways be cherished by the vast majority of their customers.
Nel.
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Well there has got to be some supermen on here. 2000 customers a month are they all in the same street because there is no way on this earth those figures can be acheived.
Winter start at 8am finish at 4pm latest thats 3 vans between 2000 customers is 33 units a day 5 days a week non stop per month over 4 units per hour how can this be done without a day off and without breaks,lunches.
I cannot see how these targets or figures can be met.Even with wfp to do a good job stop and collect payment thats about 20 minutes so that makes 3 units per hour.What about travelling or do you have 2000 units right next to each other.,
Its great to see all these figures and sums etc but realistically theya cant be reached unless a bad job is being done,under the minimum wage is being paid.
beats me???????
You are so wrong its unbelievable, any day you wish to come to our office and go out with one of the crews you are more than welcome.
2 guys per Van
5 houses per hour
40 houses per day
4.5 days per week = 180
180 x 4 = 720
x 3 vans = 2160 customers
This is achieved week in week out, when the bad weather sets in we use the 5 week months to catch up.
Why in the world would I say something that I cannot back up!!! Like that makes sense.
I am sick of people knocking others who want to get the most out of this industry.
And just for the record, I lose aprox 3% of customers a year of which 90% are because they are moving home, so yes we do give a good service and clean the windows propeorly and to a high standard.
As for the wages, all my guy's earn £10 per hour, so if thats your idea of minimum wage then yes, thats correct!!
Please, instead of knocking people take a step back and look at why I am doing this and what I want from it, then look at why you are doing this and what you want from it. We may have a different outlook but there is no need for unjust critisism.
The only reason I posted against this was as I said before, a company that commands 200 new customers a week, in my eyes, running a good size business myself, well it just sounded a bit hard to believe. I wasn't on here trying to big up my company!!!!!
Rant over now!
Trev
One of the best rants I have seen or heard in a long time.
When I left my safe,secure, boring as H=ll, dead end factory job many years ago to become a mere window cleaner my family and mates laughed at me and though I was mad. The factory closed years ago and most of the guys that worked there are on state benefits and say they can't get work. Yes they can. Go out and be a window cleaner for instance.
Trevor has his own reasons for getting on in life and good luck to him I say.
I have mine and won't sit back and ignore what's happening. Some may have not seen it yet but I have. That's why I am going to grow the domestic side of my business and like Trevor if I ruffle a few feathers along the way then so be it. It won't be intentional like Trevor says but thats business.
As to this person being my friend all along I've said he is an aquaintance. There is an old but very true saying. I think it goes like this. " Keep your friends close to you but keep your enemies even closer" ;) It's amazing what you can learn by doing this.
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I could canvass take people on and earn 4k a week. But I chose not to. I like being a one man band,I love w/c because their is no stress involved. Get an awkard customer kick them into touch. I love working outdoors it feels real, the sky the clouds are my celing not some papered wallpaper. The birds the trees are sounds I love to here at work.
That's quite poetic Neil, brought a tear to my eye.
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Good balanced reply, saw this somewhere.
"There is only one success- to be able to spend your life in your own way." - Christopher Morely
That's the one. The greatest asset of all is time. Money can come and go as do contracts. But time continues regardless - irreplaceable.
I'm gonna live forever. So far, so good :P
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The end is nigh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Doom and gloom , dont worry there will always be more glass than window cleaners, seems mr Prescott is going to build another 5 million houses and half of my customers are having conservatories built.
My customers all adore me and my wife, i dont think it will be the same with some faceless corporate company cleaning there windows.
In other words a load of old tosh
Dave
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Hi Extremeclean
Is this the company www.ezy-clean.co.uk
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Great video!! ;D ;D loved the chap speaking...was it chumly warner?..... ;D
Chris
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I could canvass take people on and earn 4k a week. But I chose not to. I like being a one man band,I love w/c because their is no stress involved. Get an awkard customer kick them into touch. I love working outdoors it feels real, the sky the clouds are my celing not some papered wallpaper. The birds the trees are sounds I love to here at work.
That's quite poetic Neil, brought a tear to my eye.
I like that! we all do have different ideas and capabilities when it comes to work, i think the important thing is that you mould your business, to suit your needs and ambition. then that is what i call success.
personally, I know these days I havent got the energy or desire to work 7 days a week, I used to, but now i would rather have the choice in the morning to work or relax, of course the bills have to be paid, but I think window cleaning gives you the freedom to choose.
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I like the bar code idea
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http://www.ezy-clean.co.uk/website/default.asp?active_page_id=14
here you can get a price estimate, for your home my house is £8.25 for 9 windows, you would be lucky to get £6 around here, although other parts of the country you might get £8
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Change may be on its way, but it will not come the way that as been described on this topic.
It will come from the customer who in 10 years time can pop into Wilkinsons and buy a pole and a cannister of resin to clean his windows for £15.00. £15.00 for a years w cleaning with no risk of falling off a ladder and he will only be to happy to clean his neighbours windows for £2.00 to help recover the cost.
Sorry to backtrack, but I only just noticed this post.
Very likely scenario I think.
One reason why I'm not ploughing any money in this job or thinking long term.
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I dont think it's a likely scenario at all. Think, how many customers do you have rhat have requested you just to do upstairs, 1 maybe 2. Well they could easily do the bottoms themselves. But they don't cos most people don't want to & they have enough disposable income to pay people like me & you to do it for them. As this country gets wealthier service industries such as ours will increase not get smaller.
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I have picked up a couple of jobs where the homeowners had done the windows themselves but where really happy to step down and let me come in and do them monthly,have one woman wanting me to do tops only as well like.
Really interesting thread though,when I started up earlier this year I said to my wife the way to make a lot of money would be to set up rounds and employ people to do the clean but I used to work in offices and manage and dont want the hassle,at the minute I am happy earning enough to keep ticking over as a one man band,know I can rely on meself.
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Change may be on its way, but it will not come the way that as been described on this topic.
It will come from the customer who in 10 years time can pop into Wilkinsons and buy a pole and a cannister of resin to clean his windows for £15.00. £15.00 for a years w cleaning with no risk of falling off a ladder and he will only be to happy to clean his neighbours windows for £2.00 to help recover the cost.
Sorry to backtrack, but I only just noticed this post.
Very likely scenario I think.
One reason why I'm not ploughing any money in this job or thinking long term.
Roger,
Your positive outlook on life always impresses the hell out of me.
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Hi Extremeclean
Is this the company www.ezy-clean.co.uk
I've just seen this.
No it's not the same company.
It does help to illustrate what I am saying though. I,ve met the owner of ezy-clean a couple of times in passing. Apparently he used to run a contract cleaning company and used to sub window cleaning out. All they look for is domestic window cleaning work. He told me he gets all his work through telesales and the website. Think about it. Housewifes wanting to earn a few quid doing a few hours on the phone in the evening can't cost much at all.
I like the idea of the premier service as well. I bet they charge well for that.
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Hi Extremeclean
Is this the company www.ezy-clean.co.uk
I've just seen this.
No it's not the same company.
It does help to illustrate what I am saying though. I,ve met the owner of ezy-clean a couple of times in passing. Apparently he used to run a contract cleaning company and used to sub window cleaning out. All they look for is domestic window cleaning work. He told me he gets all his work through telesales and the website. Think about it. Housewifes wanting to earn a few quid doing a few hours on the phone in the evening can't cost much at all.
I like the idea of the premier service as well. I bet they charge well for that.
extreme do you think, a such large company, could compete with local window cleaner? because of overheads etc.
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The one thing that is changing is the way we get paid.
I have a lot of young customers that never have money in the house, and don't have cheque books. This trend of not having cheque books seems to be increasing.
Not all of them are computor litterate enough to pay electronically either.
I can see the time coming when we are going to have to have some kind of machine that takes credit/debit cards.
Many people forget about us as soon as we leave their door. They know that we come every month, it would be an easy matter to ensure they had the cash in the house to pay for our service. Even when I leave a cleaned the windows slip and collect next day. I am still faced with "sorry we have no cash".
To be honest I think a lot of customers just take us for granted.
What would they say if their boss told them he had forgotten to put their pay in the bank this month? Dai
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I have one young couple that never seem to have cash unless we arrange a specific call for payment!
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Good question Scrimit. And a great nic :)
Ok here's my two pennorth on the whole issue.
Initially no. But in the long term I think we will see many more companies like this springing up. Well run, effecient all with a good image in the public's eye. Branding and corporate image is here to stay. Sorry but I dont want this to be long winded but it isnt easy to give a well reasoned reply in a few words.
As these companies become more at the forefront as they surely will the pressure will be on us to compete on their terms. Image will be very important. Just as much as a good job done will be. Basically we will have to sharpen our act up to compete on equal terms. Many here already do that by the way from what I see. It just wont be good enough to say. I do a good job and my customers know me and therefore are loyal. The corner shop owners used to say exactly the same kind of things and look what's happened to them.
Then. In time I honestly think the market will become saturated and thats when the real hard work will begin. The most efficient companies will start to compete on cost whilst still providing a high standard of service and appearance etc. Basically the fittest will survive in the end. Labour is already cheap if you know where to find it. Mr Knight pays a fair wage at £10.00 per hour. I am sure his staff are good workers and ambassadors for his company. If you were to pay that amount to Eastern Europeans they would think they were on a fortune and be the best workers you could ever wish for. You dont have to pay that now though. £6 or 7 an hour will get you great workers.
This is happening all over in the commercial window cleaning sector. I've lost good contracts to companies who have undercut me big time and are still able to make money from them. I just believe the same issues will come to bear in the domestic sector. I think though that there is a window of opportunity left to establish a well known and respected domestic window cleaning company with a corporate image and realistic prices to offer the customers. Those that dont will probably be OK for a while but will eventually feel the effects.
I am so convinced of this that I am recruiting, investing in technology, not just the window cleaning equipment but the infrastructure to run an efficient organisation and I have a business plan that I am going to execute.
I am sorry top be so long winded but us Northerners do like to go on a bit you know.
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Extreme,
I've enjoyed reading your post.
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I don't agree, I can't see this happening to the older guys servicing domestic customers. Many of us older guys can only dream of getting some of the prices we see on here.
Do you really believe that a guy who has been a good reliable cleaner for many years, to long standing customers, is going to lose work to some Johnny come lately in a flashy new van. Not when he is on first name terms, and even knows the name of the kids.
Your customers trust in you, is a far more valuable asset than any new van or professional image. You can present yourself any way you like, trust has to be earned, with that comes respect and loyalty. Dai
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Thank you Tosh
Many seem to think I am some sort of prophet of doom. I am just saying it as I see it. Probably from a different standpoint to most domestic only window cleaners. You have to expereince this sort of thing to appreciate it really. Its prevalent in the commercial sector and thats why many are getting out or being pushed out of business. Or, more to the point diversifying.
Off topic a bit now. Extreme (I like that word for some unknown reason) Bad boys is on TV now. Our yob culture could do with a bit of what they dish out.
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Do you really believe that a guy who has been a good reliable cleaner for many years, to long standing customers, is going to lose work to some Johnny come lately in a flashy new van. Not when he is on first name terms, and even knows the name of the kids.
Your customers trust in you, is a far more valuable asset than any new van or professional image.
Most sensible thing written so far Dai.
I'm not worried about others, I've only ever lost jobs I messed around because I wasn't interested.
Off topic a bit now. Extreme (I like that word for some unknown reason) Bad boys is on TV now. Our yob culture could do with a bit of what they dish out.
What? Man-action in the showers?
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Your customers trust in you, is a far more valuable asset than any new van or professional image. You can present yourself any way you like, trust has to be earned, with that comes respect and loyalty. Dai
Extreme,
As I say, I've enjoyed this whole post, and good luck to those 'go getters'; I wish I had more 'spunk' in me at times to get my fat-lazy ass out there and go for the good accounts.
I have to agree with Dia though; residential customers like good honest window cleaners. It's what I've been saying all along.
I also think many commercial customers think along the same lines; maybe not the chain-hotels where the managers change every three years or so (along with the widnow cleaners; maybe), but the smaller commercial work seem to appreciate good, honest, local and reliable window cleaners too.
I honestly don't think we're under any threat from the big boys; not now or ever.
It's human nature to stick with the Devil you know.
(And before the 'kids' start (again), I can see the innuendo in my post).
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Off topic a bit now. Extreme (I like that word for some unknown reason) Bad boys is on TV now. Our yob culture could do with a bit of what they dish out.
If you're referring to the programme where 'bad boys' undergo 'national service'; then start a new topic in the 'off topic' section.
I joined the army at 16 years old, spent 17 years as a soldier, and I was a complete 'bell-end' till around the age of 25 years old and have a few views on this subject.
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can i just say that i think the point that is being missed here is that extreme has been "told" all of this by an "aquaintance" so i think it is "pinch of salt time" dont you
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I joined the army at 16 years old, spent 17 years as a soldier, and I was a complete 'bell-end' till around the age of 25 years old and have a few views on this subject.
If you were a squaddie for 17 years Tosh, then you were a bell-end until you were 33. ;)
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There has been a big company over here trying to get into the Domestic market,
they are gaining customers but they are loosing more.
Reason their staff are doing a bad job, they get paid peanuts. To them its just
cleaning windows and not customer satisfaction. I think you will find the customer
gets more satisfaction from Joe Blogss than Mr X.
Mr X maybe cheaper but Joe Blogss values his customer, hence the customer who
values customer satisfaction will always stay with Joe Bloggs.
Doug
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I guess, there could easily be a nationwide company set up for domestic window cleaning, in the way Dyno rod, has for drain un blocking, but hey there is still loads of independant guys doing the same job,
people do like reconmendation by word of mouth and to know the guy who cleans there windows.
and like I Just said there could easily be a nationwide company creeping up on us, but I dont think any window cleaner doing a good job has anything to worry about. ;D
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Change may be on its way, but it will not come the way that as been described on this topic.
It will come from the customer who in 10 years time can pop into Wilkinsons and buy a pole and a cannister of resin to clean his windows for £15.00. £15.00 for a years w cleaning with no risk of falling off a ladder and he will only be to happy to clean his neighbours windows for £2.00 to help recover the cost.
Made in china by the millions.
Make money while you can cos when the domestic work starts drying up we will be undercutting each other for commercial work.
Death of the corner shop,Death of the w/cleaner.
So instead of 200 new customers a week he will be loseing 199.
Nel looking into my crstyal ball.
Hi all.
RO's are getting cheaper everyday so this may not be so far away. Will we end up serving just the idle and the rich ?.
Regards Mal
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Change may be on its way, but it will not come the way that as been described on this topic.
It will come from the customer who in 10 years time can pop into Wilkinsons and buy a pole and a cannister of resin to clean his windows for £15.00. £15.00 for a years w cleaning with no risk of falling off a ladder and he will only be to happy to clean his neighbours windows for £2.00 to help recover the cost.
Made in china by the millions.
Make money while you can cos when the domestic work starts drying up we will be undercutting each other for commercial work.
Death of the corner shop,Death of the w/cleaner.
So instead of 200 new customers a week he will be loseing 199.
Nel looking into my crstyal ball.
Hi all.
RO's are getting cheaper everyday so this may not be so far away. Will we end up serving just the idle and the rich ?.
Regards Mal
I missed the original post about these kits.
There are good points made here.
I won't buy any equipment from a supplier who sells these. They want to make money from us and at the same time try to pinch our customers. I know the argument could be made that most people dont like to clean their own windows but if they get to know how easy it is with WFP and dont have to climb ladders the picture could change quite a lot.
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I have only lost one commercial job in 8 years, some of you guys are on a different planet.
customers will always pay a fair price, ive had loads offering to undercut me over the years and so far i have not lost any.
Where are these big companies going to get there work from ? my guess is they are going to buy most of tyhere rounds like a lot of them have done already.
Dave
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I guess, there could easily be a nationwide company set up for domestic window cleaning, in the way Dyno rod, has for drain un blocking, but hey there is still loads of independant guys doing the same job,
people do like reconmendation by word of mouth and to know the guy who cleans there windows.
and like I Just said there could easily be a nationwide company creeping up on us, but I dont think any window cleaner doing a good job has anything to worry about. ;D
This could well be the case in years to come whos heard of fish in the states? But of course Window cleaning unusually, is almost impossible to automate economically. This means that there is a broad a sustainable market every were for everyone unfortunately some times the beer and £5 brigade, but as mentioned before trust means alot in the domestic market, once you have trust you have loyalty.
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I was looking through my w/c earnings book last night and it was a right rivetting read.
It brought back many memmorys.
The thing is it started off in April 1980. I am still doing the same streets as when I started other then areas which I stopped going to.
Thats 26yrs ago. How long will I have to wait for these so called changes to take place? For my income to drop?
Since I have gone wfp my earnings are taking off into the strstasphere.
Oh dont tell me its all about to end.
Nel.