Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: matty72 on September 30, 2024, 07:30:35 pm
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got new van insurance today, done the usual call to Aplan £400, went and tried gladiator like some of you suggested got it for 350, so cheers.
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got new van insurance today, done the usual call to Aplan £400, went and tried gladiator like some of you suggested got it for 350, so cheers.
Well done.
Anyone else having success?
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
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Interesting thread.
I got a quote from Gladiators a few years back, and when I got details through there was no mention of the water tank. I called them to check and they confirmed over the phone the quote includes the tank. However they refused to put it in writing. That would leave me without any proof of tank being covered which is dangerous.
Be careful you check your paperwork.
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Interesting thread.
I got a quote from Gladiators a few years back, and when I got details through there was no mention of the water tank. I called them to check and they confirmed over the phone the quote includes the tank. However they refused to put it in writing. That would leave me without any proof of tank being covered which is dangerous.
Be careful you check your paperwork.
I've been with them for years and clearly have water tank and other mods on the paperwork.
An oversight perhaps?
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I thought Gladiator were just a broker?
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http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=207649.msg1842758#msg1842758
It got discussed about the lack of paperwork proof in this thread, but it was a few years back, (including my experience).
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I did a quote with gladiator online without a water tank, I think price came in at 240 from memory, so the tank added about 100.
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I thought Gladiator were just a broker?
They are.
Very good at providing insurance for what you actually need and not what someone is trying to sell you.
I've been through quotes with them in the past and they've tried different underwriters live, until we found one that would cover what I needed.
Very good so far.
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I did a quote with gladiator online without a water tank, I think price came in at 240 from memory, so the tank added about 100.
Mine didn't seem to make any difference but both the trucks and myself are quite old and we all live in the country.
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Mine went from £450 last year to £800 this year just because I decided to declare the tank.........Alexander Swann got me the cheapest quote just beating CTM quote......will be shopping around next time again though.......have 3 points for speeding and a no claim claim as well.......guy backed out of parking space as I was backing up and hit side of van......insurance said it was 50/50 when I tried to claim so no pay out but a claim on my insurance record.
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
Good.
Hopefully all other insurers will follow suit.
Death traps.
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
Good.
Hopefully all other insurers will follow suit.
Death traps.
Any evidence for this ridiculous post?🥱
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
Good.
Hopefully all other insurers will follow suit.
Death traps.
Any evidence for this ridiculous post?🥱
Drunk?
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
Good.
Hopefully all other insurers will follow suit.
Death traps.
Any evidence for this ridiculous post?🥱
You should explain to the family of this deceased young man how ridiculous their grief is:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=210402.0
Or there’s this one:
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/van-driver-dies-collision-closed-26376655
Now look at the results of the HSE investigation that followed:
https://resources.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=313300565
Notice the particular wording of the EIGHT separate immediate prohibition notices that were issued (one for each van that the company operated):
“ Prohibition Notice 313300592 issued as the carrying of a water tank in the vehicle with registration number plate HJ10NVX without suitable and sufficient means of securing the tank will involve a risk of serious personal injury. The inadequately secured tank may move in transit and collide with or crush persons travelling within the vehicle.”
In my opinion, it won’t be long before all insurance companies refuse to insure home-made tank-in-a-van window cleaners.
They are dangerous and have killed people.
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My home fitted system has had a crash with me in it with a full tank and nothing moved or was distorted.
I estimate point of contact was 20 mph and the vehicle I hit had pulled out in front of me and got pushed about half a metre by the impact staving in its passenger side front door, front wing and side pillar.
My van front was smashed back to the radiators (punctured) and bonnet creased.
My tank (which is strapped with 2 x 5 tonne lorry straps triple wound to a welded frame, the back of which is a 6" L shaped girder bolted through the floor with plates underneath) is a Wyedale 650L.
The tank is against the factory fitted bulkhead.
After the crash the tank had not visibly moved and there was no distortion evident.
When I put the van back on the road the insurer (who had written it off on value) said it needed to have a brand new MOT before being allowed on the road.
It passed and is still being used by me.
Now ... looking at Pete Thompson's post highlighting the HSE and the poor lad crushed by his tank.
Looking at the registrations of Teeside window cleaners vans served prohibition notice they were all vans in the 10/20 year old range. I would opine that a commercial operator running eight vans all of this age would be 'on the radar.'
It was that the tanks were unsafely being used - there is no detail as to whether there was an attempt to secure them and if so what and by whom.
I have seen a transit with a 1000L unbaffled caged storage tank in the back with no visible straps. Mental.
I know of others where the owner has had gone to great care to get a cage made and fitted and then bolted in by a local garage with keeper plates.
The fact that in twenty years of window cleaning with wfp that tank crush deaths are incredibly small in number means to me that it is a vanishingly small issue. (But I would throw the book at cavalier business owners who put lives at risk by not risk assessing how their tanks are installed and going for the cheapest option.)
Probably in the same league as touching an overhead power cable and with fewer injuries or deaths.
If self installing take care to remember that half a tonne of water needs properly securing. The forces in a crash are exponential to the speed and weight.
This does not mean a conscientious owner cannot do a secure job. Even more so if they have staff.
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My home fitted system has had a crash with me in it with a full tank and nothing moved or was distorted.
I estimate point of contact was 20 mph and the vehicle I hit had pulled out in front of me and got pushed about half a metre by the impact staving in its passenger side front door, front wing and side pillar.
My van front was smashed back to the radiators (punctured) and bonnet creased.
My tank (which is strapped with 2 x 5 tonne lorry straps triple wound to a welded frame, the back of which is a 6" L shaped girder bolted through the floor with plates underneath) is a Wyedale 650L.
The tank is against the factory fitted bulkhead.
After the crash the tank had not visibly moved and there was no distortion evident.
When I put the van back on the road the insurer (who had written it off on value) said it needed to have a brand new MOT before being allowed on the road.
It passed and is still being used by me.
Now ... looking at Pete Thompson's post highlighting the HSE and the poor lad crushed by his tank.
Looking at the registrations of Teeside window cleaners vans served prohibition notice they were all vans in the 10/20 year old range. I would opine that a commercial operator running eight vans all of this age would be 'on the radar.'
It was that the tanks were unsafely being used - there is no detail as to whether there was an attempt to secure them and if so what and by whom.
I have seen a transit with a 1000L unbaffled caged storage tank in the back with no visible straps. Mental.
I know of others where the owner has had gone to great care to get a cage made and fitted and then bolted in by a local garage with keeper plates.
The fact that in twenty years of window cleaning with wfp that tank crush deaths are incredibly small in number means to me that it is a vanishingly small issue. (But I would throw the book at cavalier business owners who put lives at risk by not risk assessing how their tanks are installed and going for the cheapest option.)
Probably in the same league as touching an overhead power cable and with fewer injuries or deaths.
If self installing take care to remember that half a tonne of water needs properly securing. The forces in a crash are exponential to the speed and weight.
This does not mean a conscientious owner cannot do a secure job. Even more so if they have staff.
Good post, saved me writing it.🙂👍
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Bit different to having one in your own van as a sole operator to having them with employees in.
Im perfectly happy to risk my own life as im confident the way mine is secured is sufficent but i wouldnt want the worry of it killing an employee and me being liable.
Wonder if the Modded owner chap from teeside window cleaning got done for it ???
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Bit different to having one in your own van as a sole operator to having them with employees in.
Im perfectly happy to risk my own life as im confident the way mine is secured is sufficent but i wouldnt want the worry of it killing an employee and me being liable.
Wonder if the Modded owner chap from teeside window cleaning got done for it ???
Well scouting round the interweb it seems the other vans were served prohibition notices for the way the tanks were put in.
If the accident is as has been suggested/described it looks like a Citroen pulled out and the Van hit but slewed off into a field. To me that would indicate that the van didn't come to an abrupt halt; but IF it turned over or hit something else to stop it abruptly and the tank wasn't strapped/bolted down properly and/or IF there was no bulkhead then it MIGHT have broken free and smashed into the cab area.
A lot of conjecture.
I would be happy to self install (as in get a frame made up by a welder/blacksmith with bolt holes and correct plates for the underside).
Now a question is asked of GrassRootsMotorsports Magazine here about self installing an antiroll bar into your car for motorsports and here are the instructions.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/how-install-bolt-roll-bar/#:~:text=Roll%20bars%20can%20be%20welded,of%20removal%20in%20the%20future.
So to me if a competent D-i-Y'er is allowed to arrange for such in a competition I see no difference in principle to installing a tank.
I accept different insurers choose different criteria and I hope that the incident in the north-east, while tragic doesn't stop a conscientious business owner arranging for his own tanks to be installed.
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
Good.
Hopefully all other insurers will follow suit.
Death traps.
Any evidence for this ridiculous post?🥱
You should explain to the family of this deceased young man how ridiculous their grief is:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=210402.0
Or there’s this one:
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/van-driver-dies-collision-closed-26376655
Now look at the results of the HSE investigation that followed:
https://resources.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=313300565
Notice the particular wording of the EIGHT separate immediate prohibition notices that were issued (one for each van that the company operated):
“ Prohibition Notice 313300592 issued as the carrying of a water tank in the vehicle with registration number plate HJ10NVX without suitable and sufficient means of securing the tank will involve a risk of serious personal injury. The inadequately secured tank may move in transit and collide with or crush persons travelling within the vehicle.”
In my opinion, it won’t be long before all insurance companies refuse to insure home-made tank-in-a-van window cleaners.
They are dangerous and have killed people.
Well said I totally agree 👍
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
Good.
Hopefully all other insurers will follow suit.
Death traps.
Any evidence for this ridiculous post?🥱
You should explain to the family of this deceased young man how ridiculous their grief is:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=210402.0
Or there’s this one:
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/van-driver-dies-collision-closed-26376655
Now look at the results of the HSE investigation that followed:
https://resources.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=313300565
Notice the particular wording of the EIGHT separate immediate prohibition notices that were issued (one for each van that the company operated):
“ Prohibition Notice 313300592 issued as the carrying of a water tank in the vehicle with registration number plate HJ10NVX without suitable and sufficient means of securing the tank will involve a risk of serious personal injury. The inadequately secured tank may move in transit and collide with or crush persons travelling within the vehicle.”
In my opinion, it won’t be long before all insurance companies refuse to insure home-made tank-in-a-van window cleaners.
They are dangerous and have killed people.
Well said I totally agree 👍
I totally agree with the prohibition notice where it describes the tank in van HJ10NVX being inadequately secured.
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Anyone with Alexander Swan? Been with them years but they're not insuring self build van systems going forward :( :(
Good.
Hopefully all other insurers will follow suit.
Death traps.
Any evidence for this ridiculous post?🥱
You should explain to the family of this deceased young man how ridiculous their grief is:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=210402.0
Or there’s this one:
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/van-driver-dies-collision-closed-26376655
Now look at the results of the HSE investigation that followed:
https://resources.hse.gov.uk/notices/notices/notice_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=313300565
Notice the particular wording of the EIGHT separate immediate prohibition notices that were issued (one for each van that the company operated):
“ Prohibition Notice 313300592 issued as the carrying of a water tank in the vehicle with registration number plate HJ10NVX without suitable and sufficient means of securing the tank will involve a risk of serious personal injury. The inadequately secured tank may move in transit and collide with or crush persons travelling within the vehicle.”
In my opinion, it won’t be long before all insurance companies refuse to insure home-made tank-in-a-van window cleaners.
They are dangerous and have killed people.
Unfortunately, just after all these vehicles were served with a prohibition notice regarding unsecured tanks, the owner was fined for driving without insurance in one of his vans.
Harun Hussain, 33 - Normanby Road, Middlesbrough
On May 8 last year (2022), Hussain used a vehicle in Middlesbrough, namely a Ford Transit, on a road, or another public place, namely Normanby Road, Middlesbrough, when there was not in force about that use of such a policy of insurance. On March 7, (2023), Teesside Magistrates' Court found him guilty of the offence. He was fined £660, ordered to pay costs of £85 and a victim surcharge of £264.
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Insurance companies are calling them Widow Makers now and the games up. You will need a crash test fitted tank in the future.
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Just like to add that any unbaffled tank can be baffled to reduce the weight of moving water in transit from sloshing around as much which also affects the van's handling.
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Just like to add that any unbaffled tank can be baffled to reduce the weight of moving water in transit from sloshing around as much which also affects the van's handling.
When you have a 1000 litre IBC tank in the back of a Transit Van, no amount of baffling is going to save the driver and any passengers. Mr Hussain told us on one of the forums that buying a wfp tank and frame was much more expensive than buying a second hand IBC tank.
He was not the only local window cleaning business to fit second hand IBC tanks in their vans.
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Insurance companies are calling them Widow Makers now and the games up. You will need a crash test fitted tank in the future.
What insurance companies are calling them this? Have you heard them using this term first hand?………Or would I be right in saying, you are you just making it up?
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Insurance companies are calling them Widow Makers now and the games up. You will need a crash test fitted tank in the future.
What insurance companies are calling them this? Have you heard them using this term first hand?………Or would I be right in saying, you are you just making it up?
My guess... The latter!
There's some boll@x talked on this forum!!🤥😆
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I don’t normally respond to these types of thread once they get to this point, but AuRav made some interesting points so I will. No disrespect meant to anyone here, just my honest responses.
My home fitted system has had a crash with me in it with a full tank and nothing moved or was distorted.
I estimate point of contact was 20 mph and the vehicle I hit had pulled out in front of me and got pushed about half a metre by the impact staving in its passenger side front door, front wing and side pillar.
My van front was smashed back to the radiators (punctured) and bonnet creased.
My tank (which is strapped with 2 x 5 tonne lorry straps triple wound to a welded frame, the back of which is a 6" L shaped girder bolted through the floor with plates underneath) is a Wyedale 650L.
The tank is against the factory fitted bulkhead.
After the crash the tank had not visibly moved and there was no distortion evident.
When I put the van back on the road the insurer (who had written it off on value) said it needed to have a brand new MOT before being allowed on the road.
It passed and is still being used by me.
Interesting, but (with respect) largely irrelevant.
Firstly the crash was only 20mph, and into another car that moved, thereby absorbing some of the energy. (By means of conservation of momentum). A 20mph crash into an immovable object, like a bridge support, would be far more severe. Unfortunately we can’t choose what we crash into when it happens.
Secondly, your 2x5 tonne lorry straps will (by definition) hold 10 tonnes. Sounds like a lot, but in a previous post I calculated that the force exerted by a 650kg mass in a 30mph crash will be 17.8 tonnes.
Then there’s how they are secured. Bolted through the floor, with spreader plates underneath. The vehicle floor is not designed with structural strength, and you can see ample demonstration of that in Ionic’s sled videos. Even lower speed impacts show them tearing through the floor like it was tissue paper.
Now ... looking at Pete Thompson's post highlighting the HSE and the poor lad crushed by his tank.
Looking at the registrations of Teeside window cleaners vans served prohibition notice they were all vans in the 10/20 year old range. I would opine that a commercial operator running eight vans all of this age would be 'on the radar.'
I don’t think you understand what happened here. The HSE didn’t issue prohibitions because they were ‘on the radar’, it was because one of their employees was killed, which of course prompted an investigation. The age of the vans is irrelevant.
(Nowhere in the prohibition notices is there any reference to vehicle age)
It was that the tanks were unsafely being used - there is no detail as to whether there was an attempt to secure them and if so what and by whom.
Yes we don’t know how they were secured (if at all) other than it was inadequate as evidenced by the fact that a man is dead. For all we know, it might have been with 2 x 5 tonne lorry straps triple wound to a welded frame…
Do you see my point? Just because you think it looks safe, doesn’t mean it is.
I know of others where the owner has had gone to great care to get a cage made and fitted and then bolted in by a local garage with keeper plates.
Again, so what? How would you know if that was safe or not? How would you know that your cage or way of securing it will withstand 17.8 tonnes?
“Because it looks beefy and doesn’t move when I drive” is not an answer.
The fact that in twenty years of window cleaning with wfp that tank crush deaths are incredibly small in number means to me that it is a vanishingly small issue.
We don’t know how rare they are, because statistics like this are not collected anywhere. Vehicle fatalities occur all the time, they don’t all make the newspapers. Even when they do, they don’t always mention the occupation of the injured person.
(But I would throw the book at cavalier business owners who put lives at risk by not risk assessing how their tanks are installed and going for the cheapest option.)
Again, with respect, would you not put yourself in this category? The “cheapest option” is a DIY installation isn’t it? (As opposed to a professionally manufactured, crash-tested system such as Ionic/pure2o etc?)
If self installing take care to remember that half a tonne of water needs properly securing. The forces in a crash are exponential to the speed and weight.
This does not mean a conscientious owner cannot do a secure job. Even more so if they have staff.
I’m interested to know how a conscientious owner would know that they had done a secure DIY job? Just because it looks beefy enough?
In your own case, for example, (and again, I mean no disrespect) how do you know the way you have secured your tank is safe?
Do you know how much force the angle iron that the straps are attached to can withstand? Do you know what the shearing force the securing bolts can withstand is? Do you know how much force it takes to rip the spreader plates through the floor?
Sorry, but you don’t know, because you can’t know unless you properly test these things in controlled conditions.
The last time this topic was raised on here, most DIYers had the attitude of “it’s safe because I want it to be safe”. It looks like not much has changed.
And anyway, all of this discussion of DiY is it safe / unsafe will be irrelevant if you can’t get insurance. I personally think, as someone else said, the game is up for DIY tanks.
If I had a DIY setup, I’d be getting rid of it and get a proper system installed fast, before my renewal came due.
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So Pete can you enlighten us, apart from crash testing, what do Ionics do differently that makes their systems a lot safer than other professionally fitted systems? ( I include cages bolted through the floor in this ). You have stated that spreader plates etc are useless, what do Ionics use that makes the van floor super strong?
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Well Pete, I went to a welder to build me a frame and he asked me what it was for. I told him the payload of the van (1080kg) and the amount of water at maximum. 650kg.
The frame has a 150/150mm steel girder at the back, a 100/100 at the front and sides.
The guy said I should keep the tank against the bulkhead and to use 8 x 20 mm high tensile bolts through the frame and 60mm keeper plates underneath at least six bolts, and that the straps should be the ones lorry drivers use for strapping down loads at a rate of 5 tonnes per tonne.
I put in 10 bolts, and two x 5 tonnes straps which I triple wound through the two 'holes' in the Wyedale tank and ratcheted to the frame.
The triple winding takes my 10 tonnes to 30 tonnes. More important is that the straps don't rot due to water.
Underneath the van and the rear girder is a 100 x 600mm plate with two of the bolts sharing it.
So I am confident that I have done a more than adequate job. The fact that the van was inspected after its accident (with the tank and frame in place) and allowed to be purchased and used as a Cat S after getting a brand new MOT encourages me further.
Fitting a water tank is mechanic level knowledge and application. Not rocket science.
If I ran an orange juice company I could be putting an IBC with 1000L on a pallet in the back of a large suitable payload panel van and strapping it down to the manufacturers load points quite legally.
Just because some shifty and dodgy outfit doesn't secure their vans' loads properly doesn't mean I and others don't.
As to rarity of this kind of accident, do you not think it would be known among our industry? Think about it - we used to get one report a month about ladder accidents. We get about one a year about power cables.
Now we hear of an insecure water tank death and you extrapolate that all DiY systems are death traps
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Popcorn anyone?😁
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Popcorn anyone?😁
Only if it's overpriced Butterkist. ;D
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They're only crash tested to 31mph anyway as far as I can see. So at 32mph, you also are potentially driving a 'death trap'! I can only assume then, that you don't drive beyond 31mph?
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Well Pete, I went to a welder to build me a frame and he asked me what it was for. I told him the payload of the van (1080kg) and the amount of water at maximum. 650kg.
The frame has a 150/150mm steel girder at the back, a 100/100 at the front and sides. In
The guy said I should keep the tank against the bulkhead and to use 8 x 20 mm high tensile bolts through the frame and 60mm keeper plates underneath at least six bolts, and that the straps should be the ones lorry drivers use for strapping down loads at a rate of 5 tonnes per tonne.
I put in 10 bolts, and two x 5 tonnes straps which I triple wound through the two 'holes' in the Wyedale tank and ratcheted to the frame.
The triple winding takes my 10 tonnes to 30 tonnes. More important is that the straps don't rot due to water.
Underneath the van and the rear girder is a 100 x 600mm plate with two of the bolts sharing it.
So I am confident that I have done a more than adequate job. The fact that the van was inspected after its accident (with the tank and frame in place) and allowed to be purchased and used as a Cat S after getting a brand new MOT encourages me further.
That all sounds great. But here’s a simple question: how do you know it’s secure enough to hold your tank?
You say you’re confident you’ve done a more than adequate job, but what is that confidence based on?
How, specifically, do you know that your setup will hold the tank securely?
What testing did your welder do to determine how much force the securing method could withstand? How was that testing documented? To what standard was it tested?
(And by the way, high tensile bolts are great, but the bolts are subjected to shearing forces, not tensile forces.)
The point I’m making is simply that you don’t know it’s safe, because you can’t know it’s safe. The only way to know is by testing it, but doing so would destroy it.
When my system was fitted, I remember chatting to one of the Ionics guys who’d been there for years, and he said when they did the first sled testing, they were confident their system would pass because they had several customers who had themselves been in accidents without any tank movement at all.
They were completely wrong, the sled test failed, and exposed weaknesses that had not been anticipated, and the machine chassis and securing method had to be completely redesigned. (And later passed)
Fitting a water tank is mechanic level knowledge and application. Not rocket science.
I agree, fitting it is mechanic level. However, designing and testing a system and securing method that will be provably safe is far, far above mechanic level.
If I ran an orange juice company I could be putting an IBC with 1000L on a pallet in the back of a large suitable payload panel van and strapping it down to the manufacturers load points quite legally.
You might be right, up until the moment a driver is killed transporting it this way. The Road Traffic Act 1988 section 40A states:
“A person is guilty of an offence if he uses, or causes or permits another to use, a motor vehicle or trailer on a road when—
(d)the weight, position or distribution of its load, or the manner in which it is secured,
is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person.”
If an orange-juice van driver was killed by the IBC, then that would obviously be concrete and irrefutable evidence that carrying the load this way is “a danger of injury” and would be illegal.
This is now the case with DIY tanks, because people have been killed by them, and the HSE has even issued prohibition notices for them.
So, when I say DIY tanks are dangerous, it’s not based on nothing. People have been killed. The danger is no longer theoretical.
I don’t think (in the short term) we’ll see prosecutions for using them (except in the case of more deaths maybe) but if insurance companies won’t insure them, then that will be a de facto ban.
It really all comes down to the same question: How do you know it is safe?
I know my tank is safe because the manufacturer (ionic) instituted an entire program of fully documented crash-testing compliant with recognised standards.
You will never, no matter how carefully you instruct welders or mechanics, be able to say the same for a DIY tank.
That is why insurance companies are refusing to cover them.
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So Pete can you enlighten us, apart from crash testing, what do Ionics do differently that makes their systems a lot safer than other professionally fitted systems? ( I include cages bolted through the floor in this ). You have stated that spreader plates etc are useless, what do Ionics use that makes the van floor super strong?
I’m no expert, you’d have to ask ionic that question. I can only go by reading their literature (which I did a great deal of when choosing my first system) and watching the crash test videos on their website.
One thing I do remember reading is that a big part is the steel chassis around the machine, and how it is designed to deform and crumple in a specific way to absorb the energy of the tank so it doesn’t break free.
If you watch their videos you’ll see it happening, especially in the 4th video on this page: https://www.ionicsystems.com/safety/crash-testing-development/
(You’ll also see the spreader plates tear through the floor at only 12 mph on the first video)
I’ve looked at my own system, and I notice it’s held down by cast clamps that are stamped with FMVSS208. I believe that’s the standard the testing is done to.
So, the answer to your question ‘what do Ionics do differently that makes them safer’ is ‘you’d need to ask them, but whatever it is, I know that it works because their system passed the crash test’
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As an experienced coded welder I fitted a bulkhead in my van and fitted an Ionics tank with cast brackets and spreader plates along with four five tonne ratchet straps. I also baffled it to reduce the water moving as much. I feel it is as safe as can be as well as ensuring I always have good condition tyres and brakes maintained for my own safety.
Some people have very little care for their own safety fitting tanks in cars with one or two measly diy ratchet straps, probably not even secured to genuine anchorage points, they are the worst offenders pushing up insurance premiums.
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Pete, I understand your due diligence. However in my orange juice example you came back that it is legal until the point some one is killed.
That is tantamount to saying no one has been killed (yet) because similar loads will be carried strapped legally throughout the nation and deaths or injuries are so incredibly rare that nothing has changed in 20 years.
Some insurance companies have refused declared tank modifications for years, others haven't.
The case on Teeside is just that. A tragic case on Teeside. The bloke's vans have been subject to a prohibition order because they were carrying insecure tanks.
The HSE unless you know differently haven't said they should have been crash tested.
Furthermore a window cleaner I know very well has just - this week - renewed his van insurance including his declared and personally fitted tank.
With Alexander Swan.
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"When Big Things Go Wrong", I think its called, tv show was on last night.
Showing how spreader plates on a bridge were only 12mm thick and should have been 25mm minimum. The other bit showed a massive crane lifting a stadium roof and the wind speed got up and it acted like a sail and broke the anchor pin.
If we get someone in front of us wanting a claim then all they do is slam on the brakes and before you know it we have ran into the back of them.
What is the force of an impact at 30 mph?
The impact to your body in a crash is called crash force. Crash force is equal to your body weight multiplied by the speed of the vehicle. If you hold your child while riding in a vehicle, you could crush the child during a crash. In a 30 mph crash, a 100 pound adult becomes a 3,000 pound force against the child.
30mph means 30 times half a ton (load of water) would mean 15 ton moving towards our back.
I can't believe anyone on here would want to save a few bob and do it themselves but in life, we only change once we have been acted upon.
We have a 30mph busy wide road and recently we had 2 crashes resulting in fatalities in both crashes. Only now the police are setting up speed traps. In the end, speed bumps will be laid as drivers can't seem to slow down as the road goes slightly downhill.
I gave Grippa about £10k for my fitted system and it was the best £10k I have spent and makes me £200 for half a days work, money maker. Yesterday I received a new Extreme 18 and a spare 2nd section pole for my old Extreme. I am trying to make my business as efficient as I can and don't care how much I spend to do it. Not boasting, I am only trying to give advice to anyone willing to listen because you will never regret it and when the money begins to flow then there's no stopping it. fwiw
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You spent 10k on a system & yet are pi$$ balling about with gutter bodging?🤣
You crack on…
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I have just had in depth conversations with Alexander Swan and A Plan including asking for insurance quotes.
I will put up the results in another thread, but long story short, getting insurance from both is quite possible with a non crash tested system as of today.
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I have just had in depth conversations with Alexander Swan and A Plan including asking for insurance quotes.
I will put up the results in another thread, but long story short, getting insurance from both is quite possible with a non crash tested system as of today.
I noticed your wording “non crash tested system”. (Eg xline is a non Crash tested system, but is not DIY)
Will they insure DIY or not?
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I have just had in depth conversations with Alexander Swan and A Plan including asking for insurance quotes.
I will put up the results in another thread, but long story short, getting insurance from both is quite possible with a non crash tested system as of today.
I noticed your wording “non crash tested system”. (Eg xline is a non Crash tested system, but is not DIY)
Will they insure DIY or not?
Yes.
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I have now locked this thread and opened a more specific one.