Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Andrew McCann on July 21, 2006, 08:09:37 pm
-
A couple of weeks ago I said that we were field testing our latest design for the Freedom trolley and that I would post details ASAP. Well.. here it is. I am extremely proud of it. We field tested 4 for 4 weeks. 2 of my guys and 2 other local window cleaners used it and they absolutely love it.
Its lighter... more compact and with as low a centre of gravity as possible it is very stable and perfectly balanced for easy moving around when loaded with a container full of water. We now include an intelligent charger which you just plug in and forget at the end of the day.
Here's a view ready to work with container loaded.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/clearview_/withpole.jpg)
Now one with the handle folded down showing the charger box and a container so you can see how little room it takes up in a vehicle. Folding the handle down takes only seconds and lifting is very easy indeed.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/clearview_/foldedtrolley.jpg)
We still fit the Varistream Mk2... Shurflo 100 PSI pump and you will still easilly get 2 days work from 1 battery charge but it is far better for your battery if you top it up daily as this considerably increases the life of the battery. This applies to all deep cycle batteries by the way.
Anyway folks there it is. I think it's the dogs!!!
I cant wait to post a pic of one that was ordered today. The customer wants it in bright yellow!!! :)
Cheers
Andrew
-
Hi just a silly question...how is the tank kept on?, or is it just a question of using straps?
Cheers
Dave
-
Hi just a silly question...how is the tank kept on?, or is it just a question of using straps?
Cheers
Dave
i was thinking the same, the barrel would fall off if you went up steps etc
but it looks very nice all the same
-
Hi Dave
Not a silly question at all.
OK.. you cant really see this well in the pic but there is a diagonal bar on both sides and the handle on the front. The weight of the water also helps. Even when you are emptying it the water is always towarsd the bottom if you know what I mean. Having said that even when completely empty the container is very secure.
Matt... We have had it up and down steps/over rough ground etc and have had no problems at all.
Hope this helps
Andrew
-
Looks...very nice....looking forward to mine arriving ;)
Cheers
Dave.
-
Hi Andrew,
That looks smart, mate.
What's the weight of it 'dry'? It looks heavy to me.
Do users still get regular punctures in those tyres?
Will it suit car users who still want to carry ladders? Or will they find they can't get it out of the boot without a fight because it's too hefty?
Is there an attachment for it to carry 50 litres; comfortably; Peter Fogwill's set up does, you can attach a 30 meter (maybye longer) reel and hose to it too which is a major asset.
Or is it the same old, 'smart looking, but loads of weight and just a bit more water as a backpack scenario'; twice the cost too?
I'm sorry if I sound negative about your product Andrew; I have tried your Mark 1 system, and to be honest didn't find it much cop. Given the hefty weight of it, combined with the lack of ability to a place to put a hose on it, with it's small water carrying capacity; I thought it was 'below standard' to put it politely.
I understand there are a few fans of yours out there using the Freedom, but they seem to be lads with VANS, who use it mainly as a van mounted system; yet it has the capabilty to be used as a trolley system.
Recently a user of your system posted a picture which looked like he'd used rubber bungees to attach a hose reel to your system; and it looked really bulky to transport about.
I feel drawn (probably as a result of too much sun and red wine) between just ignoring this post, or helping (PREVENTING) fellow window cleaners from purchasing a 'mistake', and I'm drawn towards helping the window cleaners.
Sorry, Andrew.
Tosh.
PS. I remember a similar post giving Peter Fogwill a 'dig' about his Salmon Brush and he fought his corner admirably; citing point by point; why his brush is quality. I bet he flogged a few more of them after that post.
So show me I'm wrong!
-
Andrew,
Out of interest did you have any female w/c test this new model?
I am really struggling to find one that can be used for prolonged periods. Tried a DIY which looked so unprofessional we now use it for spare parts. ::)
There are now more Female w/c trading now than ever so someone could tap into the market ;)
Sarah
-
Andrew,
Out of interest did you have any female w/c test this new model?
I am really struggling to find one that can be used for prolonged periods. Tried a DIY which looked so unprofessional we now use it for spare parts. ::)
There are now more Female w/c trading now than ever so someone could tap into the market ;)
Sarah
Sarah, water by itself is heavy.
If you're after a 'trolley system', you can't/wont get lighter than a backpack on a sack truck.
You wont get lighter; honest; you'll see what I mean when you use one. It consists of a small battery and water container with a pump inside.
I've a spare backpack if you want to trial it.
E-mail me if you want to borrow it.
I don't ask Wor Lass to use it because I think it's too heavy for her. She weighs in at about 8 Stone and I don't think she's capable of using a pole or lugging the backpack about; all day anyway.
She's great with a seven foot set of A-Frames and a bucket mind.
-
Pylo, Hi Dave,is it you who has a pulex/unger modular pole system ?
Sarah, go out of your way to try one of the very extremely light fishing poles. Although nobody makes one yet you need a powered trolley. Combine the two and you have absolute perfection.
I have never had so much fun and enjoyment in my life. Well apart from s-x 8)
-
Tosh, one day someone (hopefully)will make a window cleaning b.pac with all the numptys on.
-
Thanks Tosh - your a gent.
I did try one last summer and got really sick of the re-filling. We use about 450 ltrs per day as we do tops and bottoms.
The 50ltr Omnitrolley only last about 4 houses and the backpack less.
We have a 1000ltr tank on board the van so filling a trolley is the quickest option.
I recall you once sugesting filling butts in advance and placing them when we think re-filling will be needed but Hubby had to lift them to fiill and we gained nothing. I can easily put a hose in a trolley and turn on the pump thus avoiding Hubby work being interupted - HE He.
Sarah, go out of your way to try one of the very extremely light fishing poles. Although nobody makes one yet you need a powered trolley. Combine the two and you have absolute perfection.
I have never had so much fun and enjoyment in my life. Well apart from s-x 8)
Jeff I saw your picks elsewhere - looks promising. Dont have any real issues with the poles in relation to weight as I tend to do downstairs only (when I work !!!) .
Am still waiting for the nod on that big job and will contact you when (or if) its comes off.
Regards,
Sarah
-
SAHARA: MAYBE Andrew will do one in BARBIE PINK FOR LADIES ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) :-X
GAZA ;D
-
Ok Tosh lets take this one point at a time.
Punctures.. yes of course they can happen but I personally only know of 2 that have happened. The benefits of a pneumatic tyre far outweigh the remote possibility of a puncture. I have run 3 of the systems for over a year and have not had any punctures at all so far. We have tried non pneumatic wheels and found them to be very inferior. No cushioning effect when going up/down steps.. far less comfortable to use all day due to bumping up and down and ruts left in soft ground etc.
Weight: 19 Kilos dry. ( Within ROSPA guidelines for one man lift from below knee height) Now.. it isnt just about the dead weight but a major factor is geing able to lift it SAFELY.. the design allows this to be done very easilly. The compactness is a major factor here.. EG.. try lifting a bulky 10 kilo item not well designed for lifting.. its FAR harder than 20 kilos CORRECTLY designed for lifting.
We dont advise users of cars with only a boot to use it. Hatchbacks are no problem at all. I have for a considerable time specifically asked what vehicle a prospective customer uses. If it it only a boot I tell them its not ideal.
We are no longer doing an attachment to carry an extra container. It cuts down manoueverability far too much and adds another 25 kilos to move around houses. Rather like the backpack.. which has to be refilled from containers and holds less water this is all about manouveralability. You get around very easilly indeed. Also you do have a much larger capacity battery so you dont have to worry about running out of charge or as a lot do.. carry another battery to get through the day. On some work like yours where there is very bad access/fences to cross all the time a backpack probably is the tool for the job but really only in those circumstances. In our and others experience manouveralibility = PRODUCTIVITY which of course = increased earning potential.
Regarding the MK1. We have moved on considerably since then. Yes it was heavy but still in most cases excellent for the job. In fact we still use it very effectively and have done now for over a year.. We just cant get our hands on one of the new ones because of demand :(
Of course you can use a hosereel with it. In fact because we use the 100PSI pump you can use 100 metres of any hose with any length of pole available. Why attach it and carry it around though? You would only want to use a long length of hose in the unlikely event that you cant get near enough to the windows you want to clean. All we do is carry a hosereel around with us and pop it into the trolley outlet as and when required.
It is an advantage as well to be able to just leave it folded down and run out long lengths of hose where access is good and there are not many obstacles. If you do want to add a tank say for commercial work gained because you now use WFP all you need is the tank!!!
I know you are a big fan of the backpack Tosh and rightly so given your circumstances. However for the vast majority of window cleaners our system has many advantages hopefully which I have explained above.
At the end of the day its all about horses for courses. Thats why we now do van mount systems. Many of our customers do mainly commercial work where in most cases a van mount is better than a trolley. Having said that we have sold a great number of trollies to van mount users with access problems on some of their work and where they need to use say a 60 ft pole. Again because of the power of our trolley this is no problem at all.. unlike many others who use very small puimps and weak batteries/powerpacks.
We can never be all things to all men but we are constantly looking for ways to improve our products so that the customer benefits.
It's now a fact that over 80% of our orders come from recommendations from happy customers. I come from a commercial background and can tell you that this would be the envy of even the largest blue-chip company.
Andrew
-
Jeff....Sorry mate...I am a complete newbie at present and am awaiting for all my new toys to arrive.....So in answer to your question...sorry no mate.
Cheers
Dave ;)
-
SAHARA: MAYBE Andrew will do one in BARBIE PINK FOR LADIES ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) :-X
GAZA ;D
Put me down for one but not sure if its Hubbys colour if he needs to use it in an emergency - LOL
Sarah
-
Bloody hell a pink one!!!! ;D
Sorry but it took me ages to type the last post :(
Sarah. Let me put it this way.. if.. and only if.. you can lift a 25ltr container then this will be no problem at all to you.
I cant say too much but I was arrangeing for a couple of lady window cleaners to trial the trolley but I got so busy it got put back. Having said that I honestly think that once the container is on the trolley all but the slightest build ladies would have no problems.
I would love to arrange for you to get your hands on one of the trollies to give an honest opinion.. so.. maybe we can arrange something???
My office number is on the website.. give me a call if you are interested.. :)
Andrew
-
Andrew,
If you need its tested by a female w/c then I am happy to trial it for you.
I dont intend doing much during the summer hols but will test it at home and on the neighbours (for free obviously !!!! ;))
Will contact you during the week.
Sarah
-
Okie dokie Sarah :)
We will see what can be done BUT... ur NOT havin a PINK ONE to trial!!! :P
PS Might be a good idea to try it on ur neighbours WINDOWS... look above Sarah!! lol :)
Andrew
-
::) ;D
Mucky lot you are - LOL.
Sarah
-
Just a few ideas....opinions.
Someone mentioned motorized. Couldnt something be done on the lines of that.....like the motorized Golf buggy?? I suppose this would dramatically increase the weight of the trolley, making it heavier to lift in & out of the vans/cars.
25ltr Water butts........handled them for many years (cleaning business with no water facility so had to take my own). I'm definitely not a weak woman, but after lifting a few of those into the back of a van, it gets pretty tiring. I'd not want to lift those around half a dozen times a day AND have to do a days work. I eventually made room on the drive & ran the hosepipe directly into the water butts that had been placed in the van ready. Thankfully, I no longer do this job!!
-
Fair play to you andrew!
Looks good
Some will like it and others won't. Each to there own.
Quote from tosh
PS. I remember a similar post giving Peter Fogwill a 'dig' about his Salmon Brush and he fought his corner admirably; citing point by point; why his brush is quality. I bet he flogged a few more of them after that post.
So show me I'm wrong!
Yes he did flog a few more!! I got one!
I would pay £500 for one.
It would be worth every penny. Best brush out there! I couldn't do without it. Vikan, Ugh, Rubish!!!
Clear Vision
-
Clear vision you say Vikan brushes are rubbish, just wondered what makes you say that. Have only been WFPing for about a week & I get on alright with mine. What makes this Salmon brush so good.
Please enlighten me.
-
With reference to punctures:
but I personally only know of 2 that have happened.
Well that'll be one of the users who lives close to me. He's had two punctures in the last eight months and finds them frustrating. I'm sure you know who I mean, because the other user from the Chepstow area sold his 'Freedom' (via this site) after about two months of purchasing it, then built his own system that held more water and had an integrated hose and reel attached.
The benefits of a pneumatic tyre far outweigh the remote possibility of a puncture.
Anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise to me.
We have tried non pneumatic wheels and found them to be very inferior. No cushioning effect when going up/down steps.. far less comfortable to use all day due to bumping up and down and ruts left in soft ground etc.
Given the 19 or 32 kg dry weight' of your system, either way, it's still heavy; maybe pneumatic wheels are a must for the weight of your system. But for lighter systems which carry the same amount of water, or slightly less weight; sack trucks suffice, and there is completely no risk of flat tyres.
If it it only a boot I tell them its not ideal.
Good, so I won't be reading anymore posts here from guys complaining about your system, saying they can't get it out of their boot when they've got ladders on their roof.
And I won't hear you telling them to just put their ladders well-forward, clear of the boot, so it opens easily; because that post didn't sound like 'sound' advice to me; dangerous even.
Also you do have a much larger capacity battery so you dont have to worry about running out of charge or as a lot do orcarry another battery to get through the day.
I think this is complete rubbish. I do not know of a single commercial system where you have to 'worry about running out of charge' during the working day; if you've charged it properly. Even a backpack battery will last you more than a full day. Name a system which 'runs out of charge' or where you have to carry a spare battery to last one full-hard days work?
In our and others experience manouveralibility = PRODUCTIVITY which of course = increased earning potential.
Your equation in the above quote is extremely weak; like your product, however I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, which is why I love the backpack.
It truly does go ANYWHERE; totally manouverable; unlike the 'Freedom', which is HEAVY, even before you add water and doesn't carry much more water than the backpack anyway.
AND THE BACKPACK IS A FRACTION OF THE 'FREEDOMS' PRICE TOO!!!!
However, other guys, like Ian_Giles would say he earns more using a van mounted system because he doesn't spend time fannying about changing barrels or re-filling backpacks. (Previously Ian used a 50 litre system as both a 'car mounted system' and as a trolley system; same cost as the Freedom; with twice the water carrying capacity).
They get their manouverability with their longer hoses without lugging round 50kg of weight with them.
Regarding the MK1. We have moved on considerably since then.
It was only six months ago you were pushing them? You said they were the 'fastest selling WFP system on the market'.
What was so wrong with them that you've had to change them? Was it the weight? They're still heavy! Was it the lack of water carrying capacity? It still carries the same. Was it the fact you've got to 'rubber bungie' hoses to them? Oh you still have too.
There's no difference with this system; it's still a lot of weight, a lot of money; to carry a little bit of water which a backpack could do; probably better for a fraction of the cost.
I could continue (to bore everyone; sorry folks), but Wor Lass is telling me I have to go to bed! (Groan!)
Matt, help some fellow window cleaners out and post your DIY link here; to stop them from purchasing a white elephant.
Matt's site shows you how to build a 'same spec' trolley system for under a third of the cost.
I'll concede to Andrew that DIY WFP trolleys don't look as professional as his.
-
Wow Tosh you've certainly got a bee in your bonnet over this haven't you.
By the way aren't freedom the company selling on Ebay on demand R-O filter systems & then when you talk to anybody in the know they tell you they will not be able to produce water quick enough, just wondered!
-
Tosh
You obviously are putting a lot of "thought" into this one. ;)
For every arguement there is a counter arguement. You are giving your opinion which you are entitled to do. I have already given mine except to say that this is no "white elephant" You could if you wished to pick the bones out of every system on the market. Thats is a fact.
I FIRMLY believe in our products.. otherwise I would walk away from them tomorrow.. period!!
I willl let the marketplace decide the merits or otherwise.
Andrew
-
Wow Tosh you've certainly got a bee in your bonnet over this haven't you.
By the way aren't freedom the company selling on Ebay on demand R-O filter systems & then when you talk to anybody in the know they tell you they will not be able to produce water quick enough, just wondered!
The Merlin IS an on demand system. It will produce up to 2700 ltrs of water per day!! Work it out. And.. its is described as being capable of using to "TOP-UP" as you go. Start the day with 650 ltrs and the vast majority of users wont have to top-up anyway. You can if you need to though.
In fact.. have a look here http://www.ge-merlin.com/ This is the official Merlin website with all specs etc. Looks like my 2700 ltrs per day is a conservative estimate.
Andrew
-
ok guys cool down..........so the freedom trolley isn't everyone cup of tea - def not mine, can't see much freedom in not being able to do 3 or 4 houses before I have to fill up again, but Tosh I'm sure it suits some people, in the same way that some don't rate backpacks you (nor I) rate trolleys, everyone has their right to opinion and speech, even squeeky.
Personally I'm with Tosh on the backpacks (although I don't use one) I can appreciate their value.
-
To be honest this is now getting weary for me. Last night my wife told me just to ignore the "knockers" and carry on with our success story. She knows me better than anyone else and is proud of me and what my colleagues and myself are doing. That is worth a lot to me and outweighs by far any derogatory comments made by any persons whatever their motivations may be.
Nuff said.. Gail (the boss) is making me a cuppa and I have orders to forget this and relax (Which usually means shopping) :(
Andrew
-
Sorry guys but the REAL test of wether the product is the 'one for your business' can only be argued if you have tested it yourself.
So it may be ' too heavy' it may need filling to often' it may be the 'wrong colour' etc etc but IMO if it does not suit, dont buy.
This forumi s all about opinions and persnal views on products but keep it unbiased and list the pros and cons for others to make a well informed decision. Whats annoys me though is that Newbies on this site look to the more experienced views and often replies and opinions are so strong in their like or dislike of the product it almost makes their minds up for them.
Andrews trolley has obviously fitted the specification of countless w/c on this forum alone so it must have its worth in the marketplace.
We currently use an Omnitrolley and, (sorry Glyn) butfind it most unattractive to look at although it is reliable and holds 50 ltrs of water which is ideal for top and bottoms of residential work in one street.
My humle view is ' Try before you buy and make your own mind up'
Horses for courses but it obviously has its place in the trolley market. Keep at it Andrew,
Sarah
-
My humle view is ' Try before you buy and make your own mind up'
I agree with most of your sentiments Sarah, not sure this is the place to have a good rant about somebodies equipment.
But on the other hand I'm not sure it's the place to try & get free advertising as well. So perhaps those who try to use this forum to flog more gear get what they deserve. If every company tried to use this forum like that, the common or garden WCs like us would never get a word in edgeways.
As for your statement try before you buy, most of WFP pole equipment isn't cheap so there are potentially a lot of expensive mistakes out there.
-
Hi Andrew and all,
Your new design looks as ever well thought out and beautifully made.
As you and others know Andrew I just do not beleive in the ethos of a trolley based system (apart from a few exceptions!) but I still think yours is a decent bit of kit.
I would never use a trolley again for all the reasons that many have stated, I started with one 5 years ago.
I have a Trolley design in my design pad that only weighs about 7 kg 'dry' and can carry 38 litres of water, which would solve many of the 'handling' issues, and would only cost about £250 retail. The trouble is I still wouldn't use it! So I can't really build it and sell it when I know that there are easier ways of running a WFP pole system.
I know, Andrew, that you will continue to have great success with these systems and I admire your drive and enthusiasm, but I would stick to your van mount systems which I think you yourself now use.
Alex
-
My humle view is ' Try before you buy and make your own mind up'
As for your statement try before you buy, most of WFP pole equipment isn't cheap so there are potentially a lot of expensive mistakes out there.
Hi Paul,
Sorry, did not make myself clear here. What I ment to say was that there are a few retail outlets who sell many brands and have them in stock to post. I recently tested a 60ft pole of theirs and I know they have one of Andrews Mk1 models as a sample.
Anyone can go and have a test before they make any £500 + mistakes .
I agree that advertising may result in negative opinions and am sure Andrew and all the others on here who choose to do so are prepared for that and can reply as we all can.
My (not so well made) point was that opinions should be based on first hand experience and contain the benefits and pitfalls off that product to give an all round view.
Enough from me (LOL - its not even my product to sell !!!)
Sarah
-
Thanks Alex :)
It's no secret that we differ on our opinions re whats best for the job. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same. I only really differ with you on most residential work though Alex. I use a van mount for my commercial and very large residential because its the best piece of kit for the job. Like Sarah so aptly put it above its all about horses for courses and personal experience/preference.
Ionics/Omnipole/Brodex et al will still be here filling their niche in the market just as we will for many years to come.
I would just like to say as well a thank you to all who have emailed me with messages of support. :)
Cheers
Andrew
-
Andrew,
I actually like the fact we differ, much more interesting!
Just to put the record straight we actually do a lot of domestic work as well.
We have 6 man days a week of domestic work, and this is real Cornish village/rural domestic work so we do have a little understanding of the type of needs that domestic users have. We also have about 7 man days a week of very large commercial work so we kind of understand that as well!
The one change we make for domestic work is that we switch to 2x 60metres of microbore instead of our 2x 100 metres, they are lighter to lift in and out of the car all the time.
In the spirit of friendly competition I would love to stage a comparision test of a days work with a vehicle based system against a trolley system. I might be surprised!
Quite like the idea of a backpack though, but I'm too lazy to carry it though!
Alex
-
Alex.
Yes I already knew from previous postings that you do a lot of domestic work.
We have a real mixture of domestic. Everything from rows of terraced through semis to large detached. A real "hotch potch" if you like. When I first kitted my big van out with a tank and microbore etc I gave it a serious trial on our domestic work for about 4 weeks. Of course at first we were considerably slower than with the trolley and I was tempted to halt the trial but this was to be expected because of the learning curve. By the end of the trial all in all on a decent percentage there wasnt much in it at all really. However we did have problems in a lot of cases with parking near enough to the property in more built up areas which meant trailing hose down pavements or over roads etc. When it came to terraces yes the van was great when we could get parked decently at the front but getting around the back was impossible.
Anyway my honest concluion was that if you have a big enough van that the ideal situation would be to have a tank.. powered by the Freedom Trolley of course :) then when needed you just pop the trolley off and go to it.
That way you have the best of both worlds. However the reallity is that most window cleaners work from far smaller vehicles such as estate cars/hatchbacks etc that they use for their own personal transport. A tank mount just doesn't seem to be practical for these folks because they need to empty most of the space regularly.
Really all in all I suppose we all accept some sort of compromise because of circumstances/nature of workload etc. In most cases as well purely as a result of using WFP in whatever form we all benefit not only in terms of safety but in increased earnings so we become pretty happy with our lot. I know I and my guys are so we stick to our tried and tested method of achieving it.
I am passionate about the benefits of WFP for window cleaners. Safety being the most important one and my prime motivation is to see as many as possible using it in whatever fashion they choose.
From your prices Alex I know that you must be as well. I have a very good idea of how small your profit margins are and applaud you for all of the background work that people dont see in bringing really affordable quality products to the market.
No mate I am too old and weary to get involved in any sort of competition however friendly it may be. I left the "competetive" world to get into window cleaning ;D
Keep on trucking Alex
Andrew
-
Hi Andrew
The new trolly looks very good, do you have the weight of the new on empty?
Thanks Roy
-
I'd like to thank all who have supported and emailed me too. ::)
-
Pj
Do you need a bit of TLC today then Hun ?
Ill send you a SHORT (not long winded !! ) email if it would make you smile ;) :-*
Sarah
-
Yep! :-*
Would you believe it, I've got a chest infection! :'( :'( :'(
-
I have been using a Freedom Trolley for the last 6 months, and its been a great bit of kit for me.
I'm now also toying with the idea of buying a van mount system, but I would still keep the Freedom Trolley aswell to go with it.
Andrew - Could you please email me some details on your van mount system as I'm sure after using the Freedom Trolley it is also a quality bit of kit?
Andy
-
Yep! :-*
Would you believe it, I've got a chest infection! :'( :'( :'(
Could tell something was up. ;)
Taking appropriate meds then I hope. ?
Dont spend too much time on-line then or you'll get higt blood pressure too !!! :o
Sarah
-
To be honest this is now getting weary for me. Last night my wife told me just to ignore the "knockers" and carry on with our success story. She knows me better than anyone else and is proud of me and what my colleagues and myself are doing. That is worth a lot to me and outweighs by far any derogatory comments made by any persons whatever their motivations may be.
Nuff said.. Gail (the boss) is making me a cuppa and I have orders to forget this and relax (Which usually means shopping) :(
Andrew
I haven't come across any commercially produced trolley that would completely suit my needs (yet). It seems to be a matter of finding the closest and doing a bit of adapting (either to the trolley or to the working methods or getting a longer van) OR building a DIY trolley.
For any trolley manufacturer, the issue is about supplying what he feels most of his current and potential customers will need most of the time - and that is about the best anyone can wish for I feel.
Each manufacturer will have a different view of what features to include to meet those needs.
You may want to advertise more in Brighton if you are starting a line in pink trolleys Andrew.
-
Sorry guys but the REAL test of wether the product is the 'one for your business' can only be argued if you have tested it yourself.
So it may be ' too heavy' it may need filling to often' it may be the 'wrong colour' etc etc but IMO if it does not suit, dont buy.
This forumi s all about opinions and persnal views on products but keep it unbiased and list the pros and cons for others to make a well informed decision. Whats annoys me though is that Newbies on this site look to the more experienced views and often replies and opinions are so strong in their like or dislike of the product it almost makes their minds up for them.
Andrews trolley has obviously fitted the specification of countless w/c on this forum alone so it must have its worth in the marketplace.
We currently use an Omnitrolley and, (sorry Glyn) butfind it most unattractive to look at although it is reliable and holds 50 ltrs of water which is ideal for top and bottoms of residential work in one street.
My humle view is ' Try before you buy and make your own mind up'
Horses for courses but it obviously has its place in the trolley market. Keep at it Andrew,
Sarah
Also, the issue of whether a particular trolley suits somebody can depend on how their static system (if any) is set up. For instance, some peoples water will have gone through both RO and DI before reaching their van mount (if they have one). Mine has only been RO'd before getting to the van. That's why I prefer a trolley with a small DI unit on it. Although I can fill my Omnitrolley through the van mounted DI, I prefer a faster way of filling a trolley but this means that I sometimes fill it with RO'd water.
In fact, I fill the Omnitrolley with pure water via the van mounted DI while I fill the van mount from the static unit. Any trolley topups through the day are done with RO'd water from the van mount via a submersible pump and transfer hose hooked up to the leisure battery (for speed). As my water from the RO is 007, the DI may be unnecessary but I prefer to keep the TDS as low as possible.
If my water into the van was already totally pure, I would consider Andrew's trolley an option (it has no DI) - especially as its footprint is so small.
-
If my water into the van was already totally pure, I would consider Andrew's trolley an option (it has no DI) - especially as its footprint is so small.
Strangely enough there is another trolley manufactured by Strata and it's also called the 'FREEDOM TROLLEY SYSTEM' (Maybe they nicked the name from Andrew's trolley) and it looks a smart enough bit of kit and actually has a DI chamber on the rear of it.
It's a DI only system (You only have to fill it with tap water (so my leaflet says)) retailing at £499 with a 28 litre tank.
It's smart looking, but again, appears to be heavy though. You'd need a van for this system too.
If Andrew is interested; since they're using the same name as his trolley, their telephone number is 0800 107 7729.
The company sent me a posh-shiny leaflet through the post.
-
Hi all,
I would make just 2 suggestion for Andrew's freedom trolley system.
Firstly the pipe/tube which goe into the 25ltr container should be weighted at the end so it sits at the bottom of the container and doesn't curl round the container.
Secondly i would fit enough hose to allow me to leave the trolley in the front garden, just taking pole around the backs.
Niether are major adjustments its a good systems does what its says on the tin.
Cheers Mark.
-
Matt, help some fellow window cleaners out and post your DIY link here; to stop them from purchasing a white elephant.
Matt's site shows you how to build a 'same spec' trolley system for under a third of the cost.
I'll concede to Andrew that DIY WFP trolleys don't look as professional as his.
http://d.co.uk
only because you asked :)
and i like you :)
-
the deisgn of the freedom trolley isnt that bad really
afterall its a sack truck with a metal box holding the battery and pump
its the same design in theory as LOADS of DIY'er system
sure the DIY'er saved 000's of pounds aswell ;)
-
the deisgn of the freedom trolley isnt that bad really
afterall its a sack truck with a metal box holding the battery and pump
its the same design in theory as LOADS of DIY'er system
sure the DIY'er saved 000's of pounds aswell ;)
I think you mean 1000's of pounds
! Since 000 pounds is very little; nothing in fact!
Anyway, most entry level WFP users will begin with a trolley or a backpack system; then upgrade to a van-mounted system when and if they see the requirement and associated benifits.
Two local guys to me both began by using trolley systems and eventually up-graded to a van-mounted system.
One of them started with a Freedom Trolley, but found it too cumbersome; so sold it on this site for half of what he paid for it within a few months of getting it.
Next he bought a backpack and found that better, but tired of re-filling it (he does 100% WFP; as opposed to 'tops only'). Then he bought a van and a van- mounted system and also made his own 90 litre trolley system. (Subsequent to this, I've still seen him using the backpack; for those difficult to get areas).
He's a bright bloke, an ex engineer of some description, and he told me that Andrew's Freedom Trolley was too heavy for the little water it carries. He also prefers the backpack to the Freedom.
Another user has told me he lost weight using the Freedom Trolley (can't be a bad thing though; can it; I could do with losing a bit) because it can be so physically demanding, lugging it about.
What I think is wrong is that trolley systems are aimed at the entry level WFP user and Mr McCann uses this site to advertise his product to the window cleaners who want to take the first step towards changing over to WFP. They maybe experienced in 'trad', but inexperienced with the world of WFP.
I don't think the product is that suitable for most entry level window cleaners, since most trad users work from a car, and still will carry ladders; you can't get the system out of your boot without a fight when you've ladders on top. Unlike the backpack which can fit in one of your rear seat footwells.
The Freedom is also heavy and cumbersome and the name is a misnomer. Try getting it up an alleyway with umpteen dustbins in your way. You can't unless you're got arms like 'Garth'. But you can with a backpack weighing half the weight and carrying just seven litres of water less.
Steps anywhere are a problem too. Just six or seven steps really slows you down. With a backpack you just walk down them and when you get to your window, take the backpack off your shoulder and start work. It's easier and quicker, and as Andrew says; mobility = profitability.
Anyway, the 'same' system specification could be put together for a fraction of what he's charging; therefore I think he's using the naivity of fellow window cleaners to make a profit and citing, 'but I only want window cleaners to be safe' as a justification.
But that's only my opinion; but I could be, and often am; wrong; according to Wor Lass.
-
One of them started with a Freedom Trolley, but found it too cumbersome; so sold it on this site for half of what he paid for it within a few months of getting it.
Hiya i just thought i'd weigh in and say that i bought the trolley mentioned.
I paid not much less than if i'd bought just the trolley new. About £50 less i think.
So it wasn't much of a loss.
I was told when i enquired that it wasn't suitable for his round as there were too many steps. He was quite frank about it weight and capability.
I'm in suffolk where it is flat and it isn't the same problem with the work i have.
I use it as a van mount 99% of the time only occasionally using it on its own.
Overall i'm very happy with it.
There are issues with it and for me the biggest drawback is the height of it. I'm just over 6 ft and i can't pull it around standing up straight. An adjustable handle would be nice.
I couldn't use it all day as the only tool, but it is a dead handy piece of kit.
I haven't used the backpack but it does look very good value for money.
As sarah says it's horses for courses and depending on your round the positives and negatives are slightly different.
I think if you buy something that is not suitable then it's a case of poor research.
Great thread though 'cos i've only really focused on the positives of the trolley.
mark
-
Hi Mark
I am glad you are getting on OK with it.
Your point about terrain brings up exactly the reason we first redesigned the trolley. Where I am its also pretty flat although we do go up and down steps with it a bit no problem but where someone has many steps or very hilly terrain we recognised that improvements could be made and reacted swiftly.
The initial redesign addressed the issue of hilly terrain and steps. The centre of gravity was also lowered considerably which made it much more balanced when loaded and therefore far easier to move around with ease. We have many customers now using it in very hilly terrain who are very happy with it.
The last redesign was a natural progression from that. We are of course aware that weight is an issue with any system and we have now achieved a combination of weight,balance,compactness and robustness which we are very happy with and are confident will be hard to beat.
No one has to buy our sytems but hundreds have. A very large percentage of whom are already experienced WFP users. Of course we dont have 100% customer satisfaction. No company ever achieves that. We do try to work towards it though. This is reflected by the number of recommendations made by and additional orders placed by existing customers.
Now, in the light of the nature of this thread at times and in reaction to some of the points made. After consultation with the other principals of the business a decision has been made that in future unless requested to do so no pictures etc of new developments will be posted here by myself.
Andrew
-
Well I have a backpack and from my limited experiance I would gladly swap for the freedom trolley I find the backpack a pain in the ass to keep refilling I would rather just swap containers over and have the added knowledge that a microbore hose can be added and still plenty of psi to do anything I want it to do, yes the backpack is handy but it has be be worth having both systems, if you buy the backpack you have just got a backpack if you buy the freedom trolly or simular diy you have a system capable of running from a van or a mobile element.
-
guys andrews trolley is a very good piece of kit, and if you are in the market to get yourself up and running on wfp then this is the kit
however if you do have a bit of time on your side then you can improve on the design.I originally phoned andrew about the freedom trolleu then went on to build my own, I did not think andrew had the perfect solution, as it was minus a hose reel, and as tosh said how do you get around narroy lanes with the trolley.Tosh is not trying to bring andrew down in anuy way but only bring to light the fault in andrews system,if you were using it on adaily basis
I am going to load up pic of my trolley and hope it helps chaps or andrew to question his system, because even thou it is a good setup it is not completed to use on a daily basis
ps the pics are on jouk site have a look and judge for youself if the system need improved
http://jouk45.forumup.co.uk/forum-1-jouk45.html
jinky
-
guys excuse the spelling mistakes just in from a wedding and had a few
jinky
-
must have been a good wedding lol (http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e148/jouk45/08010522.gif)
-
Hi Mark
I am glad you are getting on OK with it.
Your point about terrain brings up exactly the reason we first redesigned the trolley. Where I am its also pretty flat although we do go up and down steps with it a bit no problem but where someone has many steps or very hilly terrain we recognised that improvements could be made and reacted swiftly.
The initial redesign addressed the issue of hilly terrain and steps. The centre of gravity was also lowered considerably which made it much more balanced when loaded and therefore far easier to move around with ease. We have many customers now using it in very hilly terrain who are very happy with it.
The last redesign was a natural progression from that. We are of course aware that weight is an issue with any system and we have now achieved a combination of weight,balance,compactness and robustness which we are very happy with and are confident will be hard to beat.
No one has to buy our sytems but hundreds have. A very large percentage of whom are already experienced WFP users. Of course we dont have 100% customer satisfaction. No company ever achieves that. We do try to work towards it though. This is reflected by the number of recommendations made by and additional orders placed by existing customers.
Now, in the light of the nature of this thread at times and in reaction to some of the points made. After consultation with the other principals of the business a decision has been made that in future unless requested to do so no pictures etc of new developments will be posted here by myself.
Andrew
That's a pity Andrew.
I hope you intend to make an announcement whenever you make an upgrade though. Your trolleys look OK to me - though I find another type of trolley more suitable at the moment.
-
Yes Shiner. If we do any upgrades/alterations there will just be a simple announcement made.
Jinky referring to your point about having a hose reel attached permanently. We have looked at this and actually tried it out. We dont find it a benefit at all. The answer is simplicity itself. You pretty soon get to know what properties you need extra hose for so all we and many others do is carry with us a self contained portable hose reel. All you do is plug it in and it unreels as you go. A cheap and nasty one isnt good but there are some very good ones at very reasonable cost that are excellent. The vast majority of properties do not need a hose reel so you arent carrying something you dont really need to. You can fit one though if you want to. We honestly would fit one as standard if it was really needed but it then makes the unit more bulky and awkward to handle. The choice is there if you want to fit one though.
Breakfast time now :)
Andrew
-
good point andrew never thought of it that way
personnally I thought of the hose reel, as I have only came across a few houses that you can get into the backs with a trolley/ they are mostly modern 4 bed detached with small lanes to side usually with 3 wheely bins and kids trikes
when you go to the backs they usually have decking which is slightly raised and this is usually cluttered with table chairs,patio heaters etc
to go back and forward to the vehicle to pull out a hose would take forever
and it might be a thing to advice future customers to explain their type of work
I am not trying to criticise your product but mainly help with points of view
to make a good product into an excellent product
jinky
-
Thanks Jinky.
I get around a dozen new enquiries every working day and by far the most important pieces of information I try to get are the type of work and details of the vehicles that people use. I do try to explain about the hose issues and currently advise them to do as I have said above.
Having said that perhaps some would like a hosereel attached as an option. Thanks for your input. I will look into the feasability of it.
Cheers
Andrew
-
Andrew I am not trying to tell you how to do your job but simply giving some help
I had a look at the pics of the trolley, and thought could you not weld say a hook to the handle with the hook facing upways and another hook at the base facing downways, then people could just wrap say about 15 metres of microbore around the hooks,this would save them going back and forward to the vehicle
just a thought
jinky
-
Hi again Jinky
I really do appreciate what you are trying to do and the spirit in which you are doing it.
I can see why a hosereel being attached is very important to you because of the nature of your work. Isn't it amazing how even domestic work can vary so much? We do a real hotch potch of work as I have already said and we hardly ever use a hosereel. When we do though we usually know exactly when its needed and just pop it onto the trolley when we have done the front or whatever. We all work in ways that suit us. Great minds think alike though... The hook idea has already been considered as a possibility using microbore. It may become standard. If it does I will make a simple announcement to that effect.
Once again thanks for your very valued input :)
Andrew
-
If you look at the back of most upright hoovers you will see a hook/toggle for the elec cord., copy 2 of them and fit one on your trolley/backpack. (Made mine out of two bits of wood)
You still have to wrap it on- I suggest fig of 8 pattern to prevent twisting, but just flip one of the the toggles thro 180 degrees and offf comes all the hose.
If its fitted right on a bpac you just un coil it by lifting off a loop while wearing it. If I have too much I just hang a few loops over a pencil kept in my top overall pocket, until I take the pac off and re coil it neatly back on.