Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jo5hm4n on February 24, 2022, 05:20:01 pm
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So a couple of things i want to mention as im looking for advice on what some of you on here who are full time employers are paying if you are willing to share that information of course as im a bit worried about my financials after reviewing the numbers.
So first of all i have always paid my workers £10 per hour plus regular bonuses when targets are met. For the last few years this meant my workers were earning what i would call decent money. A Full time worker is earning Gross of around £22,000-£24,000 per year.
Over the last few years though with wage increases it now appears that as of April 2022 i am barely paying minimum wage. New minimum wage as of April 2022 is £9.50 per hour. So really im just paying barely over this amount without bonuses incentives.
One of my main workers actually asked for a pay rise because he noticed that wages were going up and of course the increase of food and energy bills he was really concerned so felt he had to atleast ask for a wage increase. He's my best worker so he has more than earned a wage increase all things considered.
Still it concerns me that wages are going up year on year but as you will see below my turnover is stagnant per worker. So i need to compete with that to make sure A) i am paying the legal minimum amount but more importantly B) i am paying more than the minimum amount because i want happy workers and for them to earn a fairly decent amount.
Right onto the topic at hand though what is your margins when it comes to employing.
I am concerned that my margins are not good. I worked out that for every £1 that my workers earn me they receive 45p gross in wages. So im operating at 45% in paying wages vs turnover.
I always tried to keep this figure around 30-35%, but with wage increase and factoring in full holiday pay, loss of earnings when they are on holidays and pensions etc, its now brought my number up to 45%.
So to put it into perspective if my worker goes out and earns me say £50,000 in a year then his wages or gross cost to me as an employee by comparison is around £22,500.
I think the real problem here is that our turnover is too low compared to the wages being paid. I don't understand why but as the last 3-4 years have gone past our turnover per worker has not gone up at all.
So what are you turning over per year per worker, compared to the wages you pay? Window cleaning only domestic please.
I've always tried to pay decent wages, but its rapidly hitting me that, unless i can increase my turnover per worker i can no longer do that or i need to make some serious changes in my business.
Just to be clear my main worker averages around £250 per working day up north. For a while i thought this figure was good, but as the last 2-3 years have flown past im now thinking this is not good enough and i need to get with the times and work towards £300 per day per worker to keep afloat.
Appreciate any tips/advice or thoughts from those of you currently employing full time and who are in a fairly good position financially speaking with your business.
Cheers guys
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I would say although you live in the North nearly everything still costs the same petrol diesel etc food,I would want-need someone doing more than what you are asking per day with wages vehicle expenses etc.
In an area or part of the country that you’re worker can earn you 150 on top of what he takes now would make things more comfortable all round with wages + you’re cut and some away for expenses.
Not saying you can’t make money employing I know you can but you need to be bringing in more than 250 a day from him,that would have maybe worked 15-20 years ago but things are way more expensive these days compared to 15-20 years ago as you well know.
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We noticed the same - you can easily fall back towards minimum wage - we gave everyone 11% rise from March 1 - to keep the gap - this unfortunately is what’s required
If your increasing your prices regularly you should still maintain that 33% wage cost
Darran
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Is that £250 a day before VAT?
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That would not be enough to employ someone legitimately make a profit and keep a half decent vehicle on the road and make a profit down South,rents round this way gets you a rabbit hutch for a grand a month -council tax and bills on top of that.
Imo that’s not enough turnover to employ someone although I know you are doing just that.
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250 a day wouldn’t be comfortable paying all wages holiday etc and something going wrong with a vehicle or the need to purchase equipment,you must be running it on a shoestring at times.
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That would not be enough to employ someone legitimately make a profit and keep a half decent vehicle on the road and make a profit down South,rents round this way gets you a rabbit hutch for a grand a month -council tax and bills on top of that.
Imo that’s not enough turnover to employ someone although I know you are doing just that.
That's why a lot these days are going down the old "well he's self employed and works for me" route.
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I’ve done what I call sensible figures time and again and factored in all the expenses that goes with employing someone properly with holiday- sickness pay equipment and decent van etc and a living wage,it’s not close to 250 a day more like 400 with the odd day returning 350-375 and some days them exceeding the 400.
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If I leased a new van taxed and insured it and filled it with diesel every month that would cost me 6-700 a month before I’d put the kettle on.
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There’s a few videos on YouTube with window cleaners so called employing people,when you listen to the figures mentioned in some of the videos it doesn’t stack up as being run legitimately to me more like cash in hand.
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What are the reasons for your turnover being stagnant? Covid, losing work, not increasing prices, staff slacking off? When you say £250 per man is that 1 man per van? Because there’s a big difference 2 men in one van bringing in £500 compared to two vans bringing in a total of £500.
I would expect an employee to be able to do an absolute minimum of £50 per hour, if this isn’t being achieved is it down to poor work rate, poor efficiency or could it be poorly priced work?
The truth is there are so many variables on how the figures might not be working for you, it’s down to you to identify where things aren’t right and then to implement a course of action to put it right.
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This is why it’s so difficult to find the right person a competent cleaner with decent work should be able to clean 350-400 every day he’s out easily,if it’s very good work very easily.
If I had someone that was returning 250 a day he would either be very lazy or my work would priced incredibly badly,I’ve no idea what work you have and how you price but like I say your expenses are the same as mine on the whole I don’t know how anyone can run a profitable business on that figure.
It’s not even like you know from the get go you can work every single day with the weather,there must be lots of people telling porkys about the way they employ because doing it properly that figure ain’t enough.
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Yeah but I’m sure you would still have to pay what 6-800 rent in a half decent place so the employee these days would still need to earn a half decent wage,250 return would mean no unexpected bills no real bonus incentives and things not happening like they are at them moment with the massive increases in domestic bills.
With the above all working out still very little profit not even worth considering going down the employment route,simply wouldn’t be worth it for all the troubles that could come with it employing on that basis could only be considered imo on a cash in hand basis 3-4 days a week which long term never works out for both parties.
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From what you have said and the limited information available the best advice I can give is to revisit your numbers, I don’t think its just a cost of labour issue, other costs have slowly increased in percentage terms over time and are eating away at your nett margin.
I would want to know my average cost per customer visit, I think you may be surprised at what that number may be. Its an expensive exercise just to turn the lights on every week,
Your goal is to keep various types of expenses within acceptable percentage ranges eg wages 30-35% of total nett VAT revenue Fuel cost at 10-15% off total nett VAT revenue etc etc.
I wish you well.
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As you know i dont currently employ but have at various points.
The minimum wage has shot up it was only around 8 quid an hour in 2018/2019! back then 250 a day was a good target (30/35% staff costs to turnover ratio)
250 in a day isnt a lot of work anymore, even where i am charging around 12 quid an average house i can rattle that off by 1pm most days. I know employees will never work that hard but i think £300 should be an achievable target by someone working an 8 hour day without killing themselves.
They need to be doing 300 a day mate with the amount they are costing you.
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If you employ properly on any given day they can work a full or what you’d call a day it still need to be more than 300,as mentioned costs are no different Gardiner’s and Shell charge you the same as me for poles and diesel.
Forget what you’re paying him that can be sorted when you get the daily-weekly figure higher but it needs to be higher you have no wiggle room for unexpected expenditure,if he was cleaning 400s worth of work a day I would want 250 going back in to the business after I’d paid him if at the end of the week and month he’d hit his numbers I would then give him a bonus %.
You also need to be honest with the numbers and tell them what they need to hit in order for them to earn more rather than them going out working blind so to speak,in window cleaning if they don’t have that incentive they will be returning numbers of 250 all over the country poor work or good work.
Even if you paid them 20 notes an hour they’d slow up after a while money is the kick up the A**e most people need.
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I seem to be increasing pay every other year. I set a value every day for workers I expect and before a pay rise, I increase prices and then increase pay with an increase in the value I expect.
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It’s not just about how much they generate is it though. How they treat the vehicles and equipment, how they interact with clients, follow rams, punctuality, attitoood etc.
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If they don’t generate enough money for you and the business it’s pointless having them you employ to make money and make life easier surely,having someone like you’re example is expected if you are to keep them you should try and do you’re best at the start to make sure the person at least seems like they’ve got the right attitude for you to give them a trial.
However people treat employees they are using them as a tool to make money,with this job it’s difficult to find the right person it can be boring if it’s you’re business although I don’t find this someone working for a wage probably would do,you have to pay them more than they might get doing another manual job nearly all the time you hear people talking about work it’s down to money.
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Do you employ many NWH?
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It’s not just about how much they generate is it though. How they treat the vehicles and equipment, how they interact with clients, follow rams, punctuality, attitoood etc.
Doing all of the above should be a minimum requirement of them keeping the job.
It's all about how much they generate, everything is about the numbers. Who wants a great employee that makes no profit. Sounds like a burden.
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I had one like this years ago he was a lovely bloke got on with him fairly reliable etc,wanted something for doing very little Monday was his favourite day to have off after a weekend of about 10 hours sleep lol.
At the end of the day they’ve gotta earn.
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Give respect to people I agree there’s plenty on here that have staff but you can’t suffer fools too much I hear gardeners talking about their boss,🤣🤣 blimey if I heard the things I’ve heard said about me and I was paying their wages they’d be gone the next day and if they wanted to take me to court good on em.
NPower are the same all they do is moan about their line manger or boss,they take no risks with bank loans leasing agreements etc if they don’t earn you enough money get rid of em.
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I’m not talking about NPower with the loans and debts I’m taking about our little job.
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Put prices up and £300 min per man per day.
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Put prices up and £300 min per man per day.
And register to become VAT registered then put your prices up again to pay your increased accountants fees .
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It’s not just about how much they generate is it though. How they treat the vehicles and equipment, how they interact with clients, follow rams, punctuality, attitoood etc.
Doing all of the above should be a minimum requirement of them keeping the job.
It's all about how much they generate, everything is about the numbers. Who wants a great employee that makes no profit. Sounds like a burden.
There are degrees of the above points I mentioned.
It’s not just about the moolah. Having a member of staff that can think ahead, resolve an issue, quote correctly etc, that’s more valuable than a robot that’s dull and hitting the numbers.
Also, importantly, they have to fit in with the other employees.
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We noticed the same - you can easily fall back towards minimum wage - we gave everyone 11% rise from March 1 - to keep the gap - this unfortunately is what’s required
If your increasing your prices regularly you should still maintain that 33% wage cost
Darran
We have a price increase planned for April so hopefully this will make a difference! Will be good to bring the cost down closer to 30% again hopefully.
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Is that £250 a day before VAT?
Not VAT Registered and dont plan to be for personal reasons.
So just £250 total.
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What are the reasons for your turnover being stagnant? Covid, losing work, not increasing prices, staff slacking off? When you say £250 per man is that 1 man per van? Because there’s a big difference 2 men in one van bringing in £500 compared to two vans bringing in a total of £500.
I would expect an employee to be able to do an absolute minimum of £50 per hour, if this isn’t being achieved is it down to poor work rate, poor efficiency or could it be poorly priced work?
The truth is there are so many variables on how the figures might not be working for you, it’s down to you to identify where things aren’t right and then to implement a course of action to put it right.
Not increasing prices (will be april 2022) and staff slacking off ever so slightly i would say. £250 per van per man. I have always aimed for £40 per hour per man, but times are changing and this number is outdated. Ill now start aiming towards closer to £50 per hour i think. Our work is priced well, but its not always close together so poor efficiency in that regard for sure.
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How can you not be VAT registered?
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As you know i dont currently employ but have at various points.
The minimum wage has shot up it was only around 8 quid an hour in 2018/2019! back then 250 a day was a good target (30/35% staff costs to turnover ratio)
250 in a day isnt a lot of work anymore, even where i am charging around 12 quid an average house i can rattle that off by 1pm most days. I know employees will never work that hard but i think £300 should be an achievable target by someone working an 8 hour day without killing themselves.
They need to be doing 300 a day mate with the amount they are costing you.
I think you are right. going forwards i need to be moving towards £300 a day, £250 just isnt enough now with all the cost increases. Ill have a chat with my worker and try and sort this out before april
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How can you not be VAT registered?
Because i'm turning over less than the minimum amount legally required to be VAT Registered.
For personal reasons i'm not prepared to expand the business. I just want to stay below threshold and tick over as we have been doing and make a semi decent profit.
Year on year it will get harder and harder to do that if costs keep rising, but the VAT Threshold stays frozen. It was going up several thousand each year, but its been frozen for 3 years which is not ideal.
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It sounds like the OP isn't turning over nearly enough to make it worth employing to me.
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Is that £250 a day before VAT?
Not VAT Registered and dont plan to be for personal reasons.
So just £250 total.
Presuming you work 48 weeks per year and 5 days per week you can take £350 per day and still be under the VAT threshold, You need to take that daily sales total in the least amount of time as you possibly can. otherwise inflation and the need to cover increasing overhead will force you into being compulsory registered. Just scraping over the VAT threshold will probably push you into a trading loss, As already mentioned you need a much better understanding of your numbers.
Do you still work on the windows too or are you office based?
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
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Without being rude if that’s all you are earning why employ ? One man should ba able to do that amount on his own without any problems provided prices are ok
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Around 5 years ago before I sold all our window work, I had one guy doing £350.00 + VAT and then a 2 man van softwashing all day.
It can be done and it could be down to your prices?
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It sounds like the OP isn't turning over nearly enough to make it worth employing to me.
Everything is setup in my business and ready to go. For the actual admin work that i do, the profit i am left with each year is very good. Context is everything though. I have some serious health problems that have developed in the last 2 years meaning at present there is 0 chance of me probably ever doing physical work again. Therefore i do rely on this income which is only possibly from having employees doing the cleaning.
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Is that £250 a day before VAT?
Not VAT Registered and dont plan to be for personal reasons.
So just £250 total.
Presuming you work 48 weeks per year and 5 days per week you can take £350 per day and still be under the VAT threshold, You need to take that daily sales total in the least amount of time as you possibly can. otherwise inflation and the need to cover increasing overhead will force you into being compulsory registered. Just scraping over the VAT threshold will probably push you into a trading loss, As already mentioned you need a much better understanding of your numbers.
Do you still work on the windows too or are you office based?
It was not possible to hit the 85k pa figure with just 1 van, so i got another van 3 years ago which i was working in part time to top up the turnover to hit the figure. In the last 2 years though i developed some serious health problems meaning at present there is 0 chance of me doing physical work ever again. So i now have a part time semi retired worker in the 2nd van purely to top up the income to hit the figure.
Yes you are right and i am aware of my numbers. If the threshold stays the same, year on year rising costs will bring my profit margins down to a point where i will be forced to make difficult decisions.
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
Generally it's 8:30am-4:30pm but recently i wont lie there have been multiple days where my main worker has been finishing his £250 daily target by say 3:30pm etc and i have just been letting him go home early. I always had an arrangement where you get the work done then you can go home early or you can stay out later and get more work done.
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Without being rude if that’s all you are earning why employ ? One man should ba able to do that amount on his own without any problems provided prices are ok
Main reason i employ is because of health reasons as of the last 2 years i am unable to work physically at all. So i rely on employees to get the work done.
In order to hit that amount you would need to be doing £350 per day 5 days a week for 48 weeks of the year to hit 84k turnover. Don't know about you, but up north that is alot to ask day in day out all week long without any hiccups. £300 as others have said is doable but i cant jump my employee from £250 a day to £350 a day. Not anytime soon atleast!
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
Generally it's 8:30am-4:30pm but recently i wont lie there have been multiple days where my main worker has been finishing his £250 daily target by say 3:30pm etc and i have just been letting him go home early. I always had an arrangement where you get the work done then you can go home early or you can stay out later and get more work done.
So are you saying there are two employees and yourself and you are only doing 60 k per year ??? No wonder it’s not working financially each man should easily do 66k that’s only £275 per day x 3 should be around 200k per year
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Around 5 years ago before I sold all our window work, I had one guy doing £350.00 + VAT and then a 2 man van softwashing all day.
It can be done and it could be down to your prices?
That is decent, can i ask what area/region you are from? I would say our prices considering we are up north are decent. I know it can be done, i guess i just need to find other companies in my area or also up north hitting these figures so i know in my area its definitely possible. I know for a fact if i was based down in surrey or sussex we would be clearing £400 a day all day long no problems. Area does make a difference to an extent......
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Without being rude if that’s all you are earning why employ ? One man should ba able to do that amount on his own without any problems provided prices are ok
Main reason i employ is because of health reasons as of the last 2 years i am unable to work physically at all. So i rely on employees to get the work done.
In order to hit that amount you would need to be doing £350 per day 5 days a week for 48 weeks of the year to hit 84k turnover. Don't know about you, but up north that is alot to ask day in day out all week long without any hiccups. £300 as others have said is doable but i cant jump my employee from £250 a day to £350 a day. Not anytime soon atleast!
Ah ok so 2 employees, look at your job price , travel time between jobs , are you sure they arnt doing jobs for themselves ??? I don’t know what prices are like in your area but if you can get the work give them more don’t let them go home early , Ime not suggesting treat them like slaves but depending on prices they should be able to hit £300 in the time you have suggested especially if the do 8:30 to 4:30
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So are you saying there are two employees and yourself and you are only doing 60 k per year ??? No wonder it’s not working financially each man should easily do 66k that’s only £275 per day x 3 should be around 200k per year
No the figures i quoted were for just 1 worker my main worker. I also have a part time semi retired worker on 2 days a week to top up his income. He brings the turnover to around 80-85k pa.
I dont rely on the cleaning business for an income anymore. I started a lead generation/canvassing company during the first lockdown and i now receive a full income from this.
The window cleaning i just take a small wage from each year for doing minimal admin work and let the money build up in the business account.
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So are you saying there are two employees and yourself and you are only doing 60 k per year ??? No wonder it’s not working financially each man should easily do 66k that’s only £275 per day x 3 should be around 200k per year
No the figures i quoted were for just 1 worker my main worker. I also have a part time semi retired worker on 2 days a week to top up his income. He brings the turnover to around 80-85k pa.
I dont rely on the cleaning business for an income anymore. I started a lead generation/canvassing company during the first lockdown and i now receive a full income from this.
The window cleaning i just take a small wage from each year for doing minimal admin work and let the money build up in the business account.
So you are at the VAT threshold then ??
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Ah ok so 2 employees, look at your job price , travel time between jobs , are you sure they arnt doing jobs for themselves ??? I don’t know what prices are like in your area but if you can get the work give them more don’t let them go home early , Ime not suggesting treat them like slaves but depending on prices they should be able to hit £300 in the time you have suggested especially if the do 8:30 to 4:30
Job price is fine i think. Travel between jobs can definitely be improved on certain rounds 100%. We do have a few rounds that are not compact..... I think i have been a bit slack with my worker just letting him go home earlier especially in the winter but heading into spring summer i know for a fact he can hit £300 a day. All he needs to do is an extra hour if that without making any actual changes to the way we do things so its definitely possible. Ill just need to tighten the ship i think and reassess what ive been doing.
I'm not reliant or desperate for the money so sometimes to avoid headaches or stress im more likely to just let things slide for peace of mind and an easy life. Mainly because i have bad health problems which at times really affect me and i dont want any additional stress/hassle. Too be honest i shouldn't really be in business anymore, but got to pay the bills somehow!!!
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So you are at the VAT threshold then ??
I'm below the VAT threshold just about. Have been for 3 years running. I cleared it with my accountant they said aslong as i dont expand staying just below threshold is fine and you would be suprised there are lots of small businesses that do this.
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So you are at the VAT threshold then ??
I'm below the VAT threshold just about. Have been for 3 years running. I cleared it with my accountant they said aslong as i dont expand staying just below threshold is fine and you would be suprised there are lots of small businesses that do this.
Yes you either need to be just under or over 100k to justify the costs , sorry to hear about your health issues, do what’s best for your situation might pay to come up with some sort of bonus incentive for them , that’s what I do with my guys and it works well for them and me .
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I’ve not been in the game that long, but I think you need to grow. Try and hit £250k with 4 guys and four vans.
If you’re under the VAT threshold, it’s a job for a sole trader.
Above the threshold, you need to hit a good amount to make it work.
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if I get this right your guy does £250 in 7 hrs - thats £35 p/h and your paying him until 4.30 thats £31 something p/h - thats no good
somewhere you need to be setting a higher amount of work per day - or only pay to 3.30
I think the worry about staying below the vat threshold is holding you back somewhat - if you don't want to cross over then the guys need to do more in less hours
Darran
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if I get this right your guy does £250 in 7 hrs - thats £35 p/h and your paying him until 4.30 thats £31 something p/h - thats no good
somewhere you need to be setting a higher amount of work per day - or only pay to 3.30
I think the worry about staying below the vat threshold is holding you back somewhat - if you don't want to cross over then the guts need to do more in less hours
Darran
I mean the amount he earns whilst cleaning is higher but yes the overall amount it looks like you are right on this. Some of the issue is this. He turns up at 8:30am now hes getting paid. 15 mins to fill the van each morning. Then some days its a 30 min drive to whichever round he is working. Some days its 5 min drive, but most days its atleast 30 mins drive. Then at the end of each work day its another 30 min drive back to the office. Then it takes him about 15 mins to process the paperwork for each day, any customer comments/queries, double checking hes signed the paperwork off as correct so i know for the debtlist on cleanerplanner. So all in all we probably lose up to 1 hrs 30 mins each day where hes not on the "glass" due to what ive mentioned above. What he earns on the glass is probably £40-£45 per hour.
I can't handle the stress of expanding to say 4 vans and 250k turnover and all that is involved in that. It would kill me. Plus i have another business (lead generation/canvassing) which is earning me good money, way more than i thought was possible. So in reality i just have no need to warrant expanding the cleaning business.
If anything i'd rather expand the advertising business as the margins for that are insane im running at 75% net profit which is a bit ridiculous. Expanding that business for me is a better use of my time, but between running the two i dont really have any desire to expand either. If the last 2 years has taught me anything it's that there is more to life than money and working 24/7.
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Is that £250 a day before VAT?
Not VAT Registered and dont plan to be for personal reasons.
So just £250 total.
Presuming you work 48 weeks per year and 5 days per week you can take £350 per day and still be under the VAT threshold, You need to take that daily sales total in the least amount of time as you possibly can. otherwise inflation and the need to cover increasing overhead will force you into being compulsory registered. Just scraping over the VAT threshold will probably push you into a trading loss, As already mentioned you need a much better understanding of your numbers.
Do you still work on the windows too or are you office based?
Mark did you delete your post regarding your turnover? I actually found it quite refreshing to read a post from someone who hits big numbers but prefers to be modest about it, respect👍
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Well there's far too much wasted time - my guys fill and prep van night before when returning to unit - while filling they wash van and upload cp ( no other paperwork needed ) in the morning download work and go
If you can't do it that way then fill the van for them - driving can't be helped perhaps refine the rounds and if it's 1/2 drive then they need to be out that extra hour
He is not earning 45 on the glass, driving etc should all be factored in - my guys need to hit an average to get bonus that's an average from the wheels turning from unit until return - that's the true average to you
Darran
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Is that £250 a day before VAT?
Not VAT Registered and dont plan to be for personal reasons.
So just £250 total.
Presuming you work 48 weeks per year and 5 days per week you can take £350 per day and still be under the VAT threshold, You need to take that daily sales total in the least amount of time as you possibly can. otherwise inflation and the need to cover increasing overhead will force you into being compulsory registered. Just scraping over the VAT threshold will probably push you into a trading loss, As already mentioned you need a much better understanding of your numbers.
Do you still work on the windows too or are you office based?
Mark did you delete your post regarding your turnover? I actually found it quite refreshing to read a post from someone who hits big numbers but prefers to be modest about it, respect👍
Yes , the turnover figure is from a business which isnt cleaning related so isnt really relevant to the post. The OP asked for comments from members who employ window cleaning staff- at the moment I dont.
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Ah ok so 2 employees, look at your job price , travel time between jobs , are you sure they arnt doing jobs for themselves ??? I don’t know what prices are like in your area but if you can get the work give them more don’t let them go home early , Ime not suggesting treat them like slaves but depending on prices they should be able to hit £300 in the time you have suggested especially if the do 8:30 to 4:30
Job price is fine i think. Travel between jobs can definitely be improved on certain rounds 100%. We do have a few rounds that are not compact..... I think i have been a bit slack with my worker just letting him go home earlier especially in the winter but heading into spring summer i know for a fact he can hit £300 a day. All he needs to do is an extra hour if that without making any actual changes to the way we do things so its definitely possible. Ill just need to tighten the ship i think and reassess what ive been doing.
I'm not reliant or desperate for the money so sometimes to avoid headaches or stress im more likely to just let things slide for peace of mind and an easy life. Mainly because i have bad health problems which at times really affect me and i dont want any additional stress/hassle. Too be honest i shouldn't really be in business anymore, but got to pay the bills somehow!!!
If your job prices are fine then the problem maybe your "star" worker isnt doing you any favours and you are allowing that to happen. Your star worker knows that, because of your health issues, you are vulnerable and he may believe that without him the business isnt a business. Your potential failure may be his future success. Who would be in the best position to gain from your demise?
I hope that scenario isnt true, but it is something I would give some serious thought to.
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If they start going home at the start at 2-3 o’clock in their heads that’s their hours anything after that they think it should be overtime even if they get a days pay for 5-6 hours work,as soon as someone that works for you thinks you solely depend on them you’re done for.
I wouldn’t worry about how much an hour travelling between jobs blah blah it’s the daily figure that’s the main thing,I travel between jobs and don’t have compact work but might only clean 3-4 jobs a day but get decent numbers.
Be interesting to see how he would react to changes within the business might see the real person.
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So are you saying there are two employees and yourself and you are only doing 60 k per year ??? No wonder it’s not working financially each man should easily do 66k that’s only £275 per day x 3 should be around 200k per year
No the figures i quoted were for just 1 worker my main worker. I also have a part time semi retired worker on 2 days a week to top up his income. He brings the turnover to around 80-85k pa.
I dont rely on the cleaning business for an income anymore. I started a lead generation/canvassing company during the first lockdown and i now receive a full income from this.
The window cleaning i just take a small wage from each year for doing minimal admin work and let the money build up in the business account.
I think that’s part of the problem right there. You are running a second van for a part time semi retired worker who is topping up his income. When you look at the running costs of the second van there is no way these costs can be covered by a semi retired person working 2 days a week after you have paid his wages and other associated costs. This will undoubtedly be draining your profits.
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I would be honest with the numbers like I said earlier with the amount they need to turnover if you then get rained off etc it’s easier to deal with financially although completely rained off days are few tbh,it will be like wow he’s expecting me to do X per day and I’m only getting X for doing it.
They need to know for it to be sustainable and for you to pay them the bills and make a profit they need to be hitting them,when you work closely with someone it’s all to easy to think we will have an early day if they are on their own they’ll get more used to doing a full day I know it may sound daft but people see this job unlike a lot of others.
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I’ll agree with that - some think re a matter of strolling around - clean 3 maybe 4 houses go home - these types tend to leave after 3 days 🤪
Darran
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I think that’s part of the problem right there. You are running a second van for a part time semi retired worker who is topping up his income. When you look at the running costs of the second van there is no way these costs can be covered by a semi retired person working 2 days a week after you have paid his wages and other associated costs. This will undoubtedly be draining your profits.
[/quote]
I totally get where you are coming from but i looked into this also and was completely suprised by the actual results. The main van is fairly new and full of expensive gear. Costs for this van are as you would expect for a decent setup.
The second van used by the semi retired worker, i went with a different play here. I bought a 10 year old transit connect fitted it with a DIY System myself before my health problems got really bad. The cost to run this van are minimal and even only being used 2 days per week it doesn't affect the margins as much as you would think.
Put it this way, when i made the decision to go from 1 van to 2 vans even with a part time worker, my bank balance grew and yearly profits were way up. Suprisingly even having a 2nd van just doing 2-3 days a week made a big difference in my yearly profits.
The reason for this is because there are certain static business expenses that are required to run 1 van, but when you get a second van, these static business expenses didn't increase at all, therefore from the added turnover to the business the actual net profit was much higher.
For example if you have 1 van, you still might need to pay for a website, mobile phone, van insurance, employers liability insurance, water production, cleanerplanner software, paying accountant fees etc. But when you go from 1 van to 2 vans, most of these costs do not increase at all, and the ones that do increase only proportionately.
:) :)
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old van or new - the cost of running it is higher than you think - your paying for insurance - yet its only out half the available time - running costs - fuel - tyres - servicing - while fuel will not be as great as out on the road all the time but still higher proportionatly to its time out on the road
I think mostly you have had some great replies to your query - its time for you to take stock and look at what's been said - ref wasted time - part time chap - hourly rate etc...
do some hard, honest thinking and draw up an action plan
Darran
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
Generally it's 8:30am-4:30pm but recently i wont lie there have been multiple days where my main worker has been finishing his £250 daily target by say 3:30pm etc and i have just been letting him go home early. I always had an arrangement where you get the work done then you can go home early or you can stay out later and get more work done.
basic problem is your staff aren't doing enough work.
if you just pay them 30% of turnover this looks after itself to some extent
i think the absolute min they should do is £300 of work a day. many people can do considerably more. my min for staff is £350 a day.
thats a pretty easy day too. they'll be starting at 8 and finishing about 2 (give or take depending on the person)
if you aren't hitting that i suspect your work isn't condensed enough, your staff aren't working fast enough, or your work is underpriced.
i found when i switched to a percentage of earnings model it changed everything with my staff in terms of their attitude and their work ethic.
hope that helps
R
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old van or new - the cost of running it is higher than you think - your paying for insurance - yet its only out half the available time - running costs - fuel - tyres - servicing - while fuel will not be as great as out on the road all the time but still higher proportionatly to its time out on the road
I think mostly you have had some great replies to your query - its time for you to take stock and look at what's been said - ref wasted time - part time chap - hourly rate etc...
do some hard, honest thinking and draw up an action plan
Darran
Yes you are right, i will do some thinking and take some action with my staff when i figure out what the next move is. Thank you.
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
Generally it's 8:30am-4:30pm but recently i wont lie there have been multiple days where my main worker has been finishing his £250 daily target by say 3:30pm etc and i have just been letting him go home early. I always had an arrangement where you get the work done then you can go home early or you can stay out later and get more work done.
basic problem is your staff aren't doing enough work.
if you just pay them 30% of turnover this looks after itself to some extent
i think the absolute min they should do is £300 of work a day. many people can do considerably more. my min for staff is £350 a day.
thats a pretty easy day too. they'll be starting at 8 and finishing about 2 (give or take depending on the person)
if you aren't hitting that i suspect your work isn't condensed enough, your staff aren't working fast enough, or your work is underpriced.
i found when i switched to a percentage of earnings model it changed everything with my staff in terms of their attitude and their work ethic.
hope that helps
R
I know with you being based in Chester your prices can't be all that much more than mine, yet your day rate is really good. I know people hitting £450 a day but thats down south so up north £350 a day i personally think is really good. Maybe your work is more condensed, i'm not sure is the exact issue but if you can do it theres no reason why my worker cant eventually go from £250 a day to say £300-£350.
I just need to figure out what i am doing wrong.
From a legal point of view how do you deal with payroll and wages if all your staff are on a 30% pay on turnover?
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So Richard the way you work it with the %s you pay them roughly just over 100 a day.
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And do you pay them regardless or just a % of what they do per day.
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
Generally it's 8:30am-4:30pm but recently i wont lie there have been multiple days where my main worker has been finishing his £250 daily target by say 3:30pm etc and i have just been letting him go home early. I always had an arrangement where you get the work done then you can go home early or you can stay out later and get more work done.
basic problem is your staff aren't doing enough work.
if you just pay them 30% of turnover this looks after itself to some extent
i think the absolute min they should do is £300 of work a day. many people can do considerably more. my min for staff is £350 a day.
thats a pretty easy day too. they'll be starting at 8 and finishing about 2 (give or take depending on the person)
if you aren't hitting that i suspect your work isn't condensed enough, your staff aren't working fast enough, or your work is underpriced.
i found when i switched to a percentage of earnings model it changed everything with my staff in terms of their attitude and their work ethic.
hope that helps
R
The problem with that is that some work is easier & quicker than other. Being fair might be difficult.
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A lot to f variables here - if your 30% is above min wage p/h then it’s ok otherwise you may face problems - also what one man can do in 15 mins others take 25 or 30 mins so day rates will vary quite a lot all being independant makes it difficult to know where we are on the speed scale
Mine have a p/h band to hit - if they exceed this they get bonus a % of that day as long as there are no snags of course
Darran
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Sounds like some are paying minimum wages a few posts above.
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
Generally it's 8:30am-4:30pm but recently i wont lie there have been multiple days where my main worker has been finishing his £250 daily target by say 3:30pm etc and i have just been letting him go home early. I always had an arrangement where you get the work done then you can go home early or you can stay out later and get more work done.
basic problem is your staff aren't doing enough work.
if you just pay them 30% of turnover this looks after itself to some extent
i think the absolute min they should do is £300 of work a day. many people can do considerably more. my min for staff is £350 a day.
thats a pretty easy day too. they'll be starting at 8 and finishing about 2 (give or take depending on the person)
if you aren't hitting that i suspect your work isn't condensed enough, your staff aren't working fast enough, or your work is underpriced.
i found when i switched to a percentage of earnings model it changed everything with my staff in terms of their attitude and their work ethic.
hope that helps
R
The problem with that is that some work is easier & quicker than other. Being fair might be difficult.
its not tricky.
it evens out over a month. some rounds are harder, some are easier but we keep an eye on whos doing what,.
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So how many hours a day do they work.?
Darran
Generally it's 8:30am-4:30pm but recently i wont lie there have been multiple days where my main worker has been finishing his £250 daily target by say 3:30pm etc and i have just been letting him go home early. I always had an arrangement where you get the work done then you can go home early or you can stay out later and get more work done.
basic problem is your staff aren't doing enough work.
if you just pay them 30% of turnover this looks after itself to some extent
i think the absolute min they should do is £300 of work a day. many people can do considerably more. my min for staff is £350 a day.
thats a pretty easy day too. they'll be starting at 8 and finishing about 2 (give or take depending on the person)
if you aren't hitting that i suspect your work isn't condensed enough, your staff aren't working fast enough, or your work is underpriced.
i found when i switched to a percentage of earnings model it changed everything with my staff in terms of their attitude and their work ethic.
hope that helps
R
I know with you being based in Chester your prices can't be all that much more than mine, yet your day rate is really good. I know people hitting £450 a day but thats down south so up north £350 a day i personally think is really good. Maybe your work is more condensed, i'm not sure is the exact issue but if you can do it theres no reason why my worker cant eventually go from £250 a day to say £300-£350.
I just need to figure out what i am doing wrong.
From a legal point of view how do you deal with payroll and wages if all your staff are on a 30% pay on turnover?
the problem is you don't have enough sales so your margins aren't good enough.
more sales means they need to work harder, or you need to get your work more condensed, or you need to raise your prices, OR 2 or 3 of those.
its not about area of the country. i'm in a business group of 5 window cleaners from all over the country (inc. rural wales, Chester, Nottingham..) and we all hit broadly similar figures (although some can hit far higher numbers (because they're more established and work is far more condensed)
if you're margins aren't good enough you'll struggle to grow too as you need the cash to invest in growth.
payroll is simple. i just send the amount they've earned to my bookkeeper every month.
they're all FT employed and contracted.
when they start they earn min wage, until 30% of sales is higher than minimum wage. that usually takes 2-4 weeks for them to hit
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Richard -
What rate do they get for holidays ? - 30% of their average ( and what period ) or basic minimum wage ?
Darran
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Richard -
What rate do they get for holidays ? - 30% of their average ( and what period ) or basic minimum wage ?
Darran
There’s a legal requirement for AL. I think you have to pay the the average of the last 3 months pay. Something like that. My bookkeeper does it but the rate is set by employment law
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Richard -
What rate do they get for holidays ? - 30% of their average ( and what period ) or basic minimum wage ?
Darran
There’s a legal requirement for AL. I think you have to pay the the average of the last 3 months pay. Something like that. My bookkeeper does it but the rate is set by employment law
Good question from Darran.
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;)
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Are they zero hour contract ?
Darran
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0 hours contract come on Darren that’s not employing people lol.
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Are they zero hour contract ?
Darran
No
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Are they zero hour contract ?
Darran
They’re on full time contracts
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So how do we it work - as you are paying % known as outwork (or similar) and you are not supposed to have set hours or days - workers may set there on start finish etc… thus you take an average amount and f the last 52 weeks (not inc holidays or sick) when having time off - just trying to understand how you are working this
Darran
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So how do we it work - as you are paying % known as outwork (or similar) and you are not supposed to have set hours or days - workers may set there on start finish etc… thus you take an average amount and f the last 52 weeks (not inc holidays or sick) when having time off - just trying to understand how you are working this
Darran
It’s really simple to be honest
It’s all based around regular repeating window cleans so it’s very dependable and consistent
The guys get the van to keep at home and have an amount of work we set them. The set their own level pretty much, so long as it’s a min of £350 a day
Not sure what you mean about not having set hours or set days?
They work Mon-Fri all year round
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so basically your not paying hours your paying "piece" work - if they complete their 350 in 5 hours or in 9 hour they get paid the same ?
so if I worked for you and took 2 weeks holiday how do I know what im going to be paid ? - 30% of the 350 per day £116
what I mean about the hours is outworkers ( paid on piece work or a percentage ) get to choose hours or work - start and finish times - not the employer - personally I think its a brave decision to pay only % of income other than hourly rate - I don't have the in depth knowledge to know legally whether you are on the right side of employment law or not but i can fore see issues with the system if weather effected - equipment breakdowns - no van for the day
Darran
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so basically your not paying hours your paying "piece" work - if they complete their 350 in 5 hours or in 9 hour they get paid the same ?
so if I worked for you and took 2 weeks holiday how do I know what im going to be paid ? - 30% of the 350 per day £116
what I mean about the hours is outworkers ( paid on piece work or a percentage ) get to choose hours or work - start and finish times - not the employer - personally I think its a brave decision to pay only % of income other than hourly rate - I don't have the in depth knowledge to know legally whether you are on the right side of employment law or not but i can fore see issues with the system if weather effected - equipment breakdowns - no van for the day
Darran
your annual leave rate is worked out as an average of their earnings. I think it's average of their last 3 months earnings. that's based on employment law, my bookkeeper knows the specifics.
the chaps keep their vans at home and can start and end when they like provided the worklist is completed. I'm not paying them by the hour but on work completed (unless they are not completing enough work when they are on minimum wage (which means they're training))
there have been no issues with not being able to work. quite the opposite. last year is the first time no van has frozen and been unable to work in the morning. they keep the vans at home and know if they cant work they will be down or catching up at weekends.
likewise when the van needs a service or work done they sort it themselves at weekends or out of work hours so they can keep earning.
they are happy enough with the system as it seems fair to fair and they earn great and have lots of freedom.
i believe its all well and good with employment law from the advice i've had. like you I'm not an expert, but i don't overly worry about stuff like that as everyone is happy with the system and it seems fair and they understand it
in terms of being unable to wor
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I don’t know how easily your blokes can do their 350 but I would say if they are expected to do that everyday they don’t get much free time tbh,some people can hit that figure effortlessly but if you have lots of small houses even if grouped together will take time to complete.
The types of domestics I do I couldn’t just have people rock up at weekends they wouldn’t go for that on my work,350 in some areas is hard to hit starting at 8 through till 4 saying you can start when you like is fine but they probably all go out and have to start at 7-30-8 o’clock lol.
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I don’t know how easily your blokes can do their 350 but I would say if they are expected to do that everyday they don’t get much free time tbh,some people can hit that figure effortlessly but if you have lots of small houses even if grouped together will take time to complete.
The types of domestics I do I couldn’t just have people rock up at weekends they wouldn’t go for that on my work,350 in some areas is hard to hit starting at 8 through till 4 saying you can start when you like is fine but they probably all go out and have to start at 7-30-8 o’clock lol.
They do it easily. If they start on the glass at 8 they’re finished by 3 or earlier
If they can’t they don’t last the training TBH
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Darren they are employed they arent self employed subcontractors. I think that is where there is some confusion.
It sounds a good model to run Richard. They have the protection of an employer employee relationship and you have great control over your cleaning labour cost.
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There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement
There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )
But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid
Darran
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There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement
There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )
But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid
Darran
We’ll always have to deal with to$$er$ at some point
You can give people the cr*p jobs in hourly pay too
You can be a bad employer whatever system you use
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There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement
There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )
But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid
Darran
We’ll always have to deal with to$$er$ at some point
You can give people the cr*p jobs in hourly pay too
You can be a bad employer whatever system you use
Of course you can - but they are not penalised financially where I feel some one somewhere in the future may throw this up - a lot depends how often the staff get together to talk
Darran
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There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement
There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )
But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid
Darran
We’ll always have to deal with to$$er$ at some point
You can give people the cr*p jobs in hourly pay too
You can be a bad employer whatever system you use
Of course you can - but they are not penalised financially where I feel some one somewhere in the future may throw this up - a lot depends how often the staff get together to talk
Darran
Maybe. We rotate the rounds so the usual moan is the opposite. That they get a new round.
But yeh any system will have things that arise from it for sure
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I notice you didn't answer my query ....
Darran
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There are lots of subtle differences - to me it appears to be zero hr arrangement
There is little protection for them as an example Richard gets the hump with one of them he can either give them work that’s difficault to reach target or simply give them hardly any work ( not saying you do this )
But paying purely on piece work does allow the employee to work what hours they want as opposed to an hourly rate - as Richard says it works - however I see at some point some smart ar$E could make it difficault for him - just like you can get t@ss£re on hourly paid
Darran
I would imagine they are contracted for 30+ hours a week at a lawful wage rate. They make up their hourly rate with a pre agreed productivity bonus, if they voluntarily work an extra 30 mins as and when to reach that bonus target then I presume they are happy otherwise they would leave.
I dont know what figure they earn but I would imagine its in the £25-30 k per annum area. Its all a guess only Richard knows but I would be happy with a nett of £15-20k per employee. Happy productive staff members will make you good money over the long haul. (numbers based on a window cleaning round with consistent cash flow.)
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Cheers Lee 🤣
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I notice you didn't answer my query ....
Darran
I can’t see a query to be honest.
What’s the Q again?
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yes maybe a little subtle are your guys zero hours?
Darran
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yes maybe a little subtle are your guys zero hours?
Darran
No. Full time hours permanent contracted
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thats where Im having trouble Richard - how are they full time hours ? when you pay only a % or work not an hourly rate please explain...
Darran
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The way I understand it - their bonus they would be entitled to the full basic pay when they are on holiday.
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thats where Im having trouble Richard - how are they full time hours ? when you pay only a % or work not an hourly rate please explain...
Darran
Yes I get what you are saying I pay staff an hourly rate plus a bonus at the end of the month if certain targets are met and no call backs , this isn’t done on a % of money earnt but the bonus is based on a % of any extra work completed so the more extra work done the more they can earn
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exactly - and your hours are (example) 35 hours per week or 152 a month
I don't see how that works on percentage only unless its zero hours ( which of course is also a permanent contract )
Darran
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exactly - and your hours are (example) 35 hours per week or 152 a month
I don't see how that works on percentage only unless its zero hours ( which of course is also a permanent contract )
Darran
It isnt percentage only. its a basic hourly wage plus a productivity bonus.
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exactly - and your hours are (example) 35 hours per week or 152 a month
I don't see how that works on percentage only unless its zero hours ( which of course is also a permanent contract )
Darran
Yes I agree a % of turnover only isn’t hours based ???? Unless Ime missing something, maybe he knows the work will take them xx hours per week to do and that’s what he means ???
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exactly - and your hours are (example) 35 hours per week or 152 a month
I don't see how that works on percentage only unless its zero hours ( which of course is also a permanent contract )
Darran
It isnt percentage only. its a basic hourly wage plus a productivity bonus.
no Richard pays 30% of their turnover - ( unless you can show a quote to the contrary )
Splash - quite possibly - perhaps he can have a go at clarifying it for us
Darran
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exactly - and your hours are (example) 35 hours per week or 152 a month
I don't see how that works on percentage only unless its zero hours ( which of course is also a permanent contract )
Darran
It isnt percentage only. its a basic hourly wage plus a productivity bonus.
He hasn’t mentioned hourly rate only a % of days takings
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I don’t know to be honest. They have a min of £350 a day work Mon-Fri. Not sure how that works in terms of your question. I think a zero hours contract means I’m not obliged to offer them work.
But that’s not the case as they’re getting a set amount of work each day, for a basic rate of pay that equates to well above full time minimum wage.
What the specific legal definitions of it are I do not know though. I’m not an expert on contact law. I’m sure there are plenty of jobs which are defined by responsibilities rather than set work hours though. And they aren’t all zero hour contracts
Who knows though. Maybe I’m wrong eh 🤔
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Yeah - ok Richard
So you have no idea what your staff are contracted to (hrs per week) ?
Darran
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Yeah - ok Richard
So you have no idea what your staff are contracted to (hrs per week) ?
Darran
I’ll check the contracts.
You’re literally the only person who’s asked this 🤣
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So…
There’sa minimum number of FT hrs set per month and a minimum take home pay based on those hrs at min wage
When 30% is above the minimum set they earn that
But like I say or they can’t do £350 within 2 months there aren’t going to work out for me personally
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so what's the contracted hours then?
Darran
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I would say that expecting someone on their own cleaning just run of the mill work is a high expectation from you Richard if you are wanting 350 per day everyday,as for saying they can work their own hours etc lol I would think they need to be out fairly early and consistently if they are to get any bonus at all.
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I would pay a bonus just for the reliability factor without completing every last job expected,if they are working in a town they are hard days with a fair few jobs to get done.
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so what's the contracted hours then?
Darran
35 hrs a week
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I would say that expecting someone on their own cleaning just run of the mill work is a high expectation from you Richard if you are wanting 350 per day everyday,as for saying they can work their own hours etc lol I would think they need to be out fairly early and consistently if they are to get any bonus at all.
£350 a day should be a doddle after a month. Maybe you need to put your prices up.
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I would say that expecting someone on their own cleaning just run of the mill work is a high expectation from you Richard if you are wanting 350 per day everyday,as for saying they can work their own hours etc lol I would think they need to be out fairly early and consistently if they are to get any bonus at all.
mostly they do much more than that TBH
been doing it for 10 years too so its not unrealistic
you dont have staff do you?
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thanks Richard - shame it took so long for you to work out how you actually employ your staff.
a bit of a strange set up personally speaking but I can see it in one way being more straight forward for you/book keeper to pay out
Darran
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thanks Richard - shame it took so long for you to work out how you actually employ your staff.
bit snarky that
its a forum not an employment tribunal ;)
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thanks Richard - shame it took so long for you to work out how you actually employ your staff.
bit snarky that
its a forum not an employment tribunal ;)
Your playing to a tough crowd :)
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Lol 350 I don’t need to put my prices up no m8 I’m not talking about me I’m talking about someone that’s being sent out to clean 3 bed semis or 4 bed detached estate houses at 20-23 a pop.
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thanks Richard - shame it took so long for you to work out how you actually employ your staff.
bit snarky that
its a forum not an employment tribunal ;)
Your playing to a tough crowd :)
True 🤣
I’d best not mention I’m setting myself up as a window cleaner business coach 🤭
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Lol 350 I don’t need to put my prices up no m8 I’m not talking about me I’m talking about someone that’s being sent out to clean 3 bed semis or 4 bed detached estate houses at 20-23 a pop.
at that price a pop i would think they could do 350 by lunch time. Thats only about 15 houses or so
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That’s only 15 houses yeah small running about houses at an average of 23 notes not the kind of houses I’d want to be cleaning day in day out thanks,cleaning houses like that constantly is no fun but if you ain’t having to clean them who cares eh.
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That’s only 15 houses yeah small running about houses at an average of 23 notes not the kind of houses I’d want to be cleaning day in day out thanks,cleaning houses like that constantly is no fun but if you ain’t having to clean them who cares eh.
So what kind of houses are you and all your staff cleaning ???? Some pictures would be good just to give us an idea of what you do . Doubt that we will get any though .
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That’s only 15 houses yeah small running about houses at an average of 23 notes not the kind of houses I’d want to be cleaning day in day out thanks,cleaning houses like that constantly is no fun but if you ain’t having to clean them who cares eh.
I have days where I clean 20-25 jobs at less than £23 a pop all completed in around 5 hours...no problem....other days it might be 6 or 7 larger houses....
I don't have fun on either days TBH.... ;D ;D...
So is it only you Nigel that has all the fun houses to clean?
You talk so much BS.......a window is a window whether it's a small 3 bed semi or a mansion...makes no difference to me....
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Nigel still thinks he is part some kind of window cleaning elite because he apparently cleans massive houses. Get over yourself Nigel, you’re still a window cleaner like the rest of us on here.
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Nigel still thinks he is part some kind of window cleaning elite because he apparently cleans massive houses. Get over yourself Nigel, you’re still a window cleaner like the rest of us on here.
His round was passed down off his dad too....he ll be no better off financially anyway even if his prices are high due to the ridiculous cost of living in that part of the country....oh and all the driving about to get to the jobs....i bet his fuel bill is at least £150-£200 a week alone....mines around £35 even running my diesel heater every day! :)
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Nigel still thinks he is part some kind of window cleaning elite because he apparently cleans massive houses. Get over yourself Nigel, you’re still a window cleaner like the rest of us on here.
His round was passed down off his dad too....he ll be no better off financially anyway even if his prices are high due to the ridiculous cost of living in that part of the country....oh and all the driving about to get to the jobs....i bet his fuel bill is at least £150-£200 a week alone....mines around £35 even running my diesel heater every day! :)
Oh dear….
NWH has lost the confidence of the one person he actually liked on the forum, always posting about Daz’s girlfriend etc…
There must be a weapons grade level of BS on this thread for that to happen!
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Nigel still thinks he is part some kind of window cleaning elite because he apparently cleans massive houses. Get over yourself Nigel, you’re still a window cleaner like the rest of us on here.
His round was passed down off his dad too....he ll be no better off financially anyway even if his prices are high due to the ridiculous cost of living in that part of the country....oh and all the driving about to get to the jobs....i bet his fuel bill is at least £150-£200 a week alone....mines around £35 even running my diesel heater every day! :)
You’re right m8 I’m lucky if I end up with 200 notes in my pocket at the end of the week 👌.
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That’s only 15 houses yeah small running about houses at an average of 23 notes not the kind of houses I’d want to be cleaning day in day out thanks,cleaning houses like that constantly is no fun but if you ain’t having to clean them who cares eh.
not what you would want to clean ? you must live in some kind of window cleaning utopia
I run about for a lot less than 20/23 quid a pop
I reckon 2 of us could do a grand a day at those prices, 45 houses or so.....hardly depressing
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You can’t give an honest opinion Stoots you are better off not only on here but in life in general appearing to be struggling or being a couple of pegs down the ladder on others so to speak,I got out of my car with the Mrs last weekend a beautiful day it was only for a seemingly ok chap to utter the words Pr**k to me indirectly lol,that’s ok I don’t mind that at all it just keeps reassuring me that I’m winning 👌.
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I didn’t realise Nigel’s work was handed to him by his dad. Knowing that and then listening to his ramblings mocking other peoples average clean price actually makes me think he’s got serious mental issues. Get some help Nigel.
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Nigel still thinks he is part some kind of window cleaning elite because he apparently cleans massive houses. Get over yourself Nigel, you’re still a window cleaner like the rest of us on here.
His round was passed down off his dad too....he ll be no better off financially anyway even if his prices are high due to the ridiculous cost of living in that part of the country....oh and all the driving about to get to the jobs....i bet his fuel bill is at least £150-£200 a week alone....mines around £35 even running my diesel heater every day! :)
You’re right m8 I’m lucky if I end up with 200 notes in my pocket at the end of the week 👌.
Let’s see some pictures of theses mansions that you clean ??? And all the staff doing the work ?????
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That’s only 15 houses yeah small running about houses at an average of 23 notes not the kind of houses I’d want to be cleaning day in day out thanks,cleaning houses like that constantly is no fun but if you ain’t having to clean them who cares eh.
So what kind of houses are you and all your staff cleaning ???? Some pictures would be good just to give us an idea of what you do . Doubt that we will get any though .
I want to see a typical NWH house also.
I am sick of his absolute BS posts disrespecting everyone else like he is some kind of window cleaning guru .
I dont think he realises that apart from the people that post , there are thousands rolling their eyes and muttering "muppet " under their breath .
he ruins this forum , and I appeal to the moderators to ban him , so that other people can post for advice , and or share their wisdom without being laughed at by him .
he brings nothing to the table apart from BS
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That’s only 15 houses yeah small running about houses at an average of 23 notes not the kind of houses I’d want to be cleaning day in day out thanks,cleaning houses like that constantly is no fun but if you ain’t having to clean them who cares eh.
So what kind of houses are you and all your staff cleaning ???? Some pictures would be good just to give us an idea of what you do . Doubt that we will get any though .
I want to see a typical NWH house also.
I am sick of his absolute BS posts disrespecting everyone else like he is some kind of window cleaning guru .
I dont think he realises that apart from the people that post , there are thousands rolling their eyes and muttering "muppet " under their breath .
he ruins this forum , and I appeal to the moderators to ban him , so that other people can post for advice , and or share their wisdom without being laughed at by him .
he brings nothing to the table apart from BS
I predict he has a beaten up 10 year old van looks tatty , struggles to earn a crust , so he has to portray himself on hear as a multi van operator with several staff to massage his massive ego , most of what he posts it’s quite clear he doesn’t employ anyone he hasn’t got a clue , and he won’t post any pictures to give proof of his claims as he has none beacause it’s not true , go on NWH post some pictures with your van and staff cleaning something decent , bet you can’t , and like my other posts asking for pictures I expect you will manage to ignore this one as well , but if it was anything else you would chip in straight away with your vast experience in the window cleaning industry, I for one have had enough of your infantile posts , and hope that you will go into permanent retirement from this and any other forums .
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You can’t give an honest opinion Stoots you are better off not only on here but in life in general appearing to be struggling or being a couple of pegs down the ladder on others so to speak,I got out of my car with the Mrs last weekend a beautiful day it was only for a seemingly ok chap to utter the words Pr**k to me indirectly lol,that’s ok I don’t mind that at all it just keeps reassuring me that I’m winning 👌.
You are an actual rat. You do realise most of the guys on this forum have you blocked and can't even see your posts. Maybe its time i did the same. You don't add anything positive or of value to this forum. Just to this thread alone, i read through every single one of your comments and honestly i didn't even bother to reply because you are delusional and i can't believe or trust in most of what you say. Does it not bother you that literally almost everyone on this forum has a problem with you? You must be great fun at parties. Oh wait, what's that? You don't have any friends to begin with....
Yeah i know there's alot of banter on this forum, but this is different now it's gone too far.
If ever mods could abuse their power on a forum and ban someone just for pi55ing other forum members off, you'd be getting sent straight to Narnia mate, in the bin, take the trash out on your way there.
Mods i'm sorry if this comment is over the top but i've just had enough of him bringing the energy down on all the posts.
I stopped regularly posting and interacting on this forum about a year ago because of how negative it was and just recently started coming on here again, but honestly its making me want to leave again.
i just cba........
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Some people need to chill. Asking for someone to be banned because you don’t like his posts is a wee bit OTT. If you don’t like Nigel’s posts you have the option to scroll past them or you could put him on your ignore list. Personally I think he does contribute to the forum, it would be a boring place if we were all singing from the same hymn sheet.
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It appears Nigel is a popular as Putin ….
Darran
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It appears Nigel is a popular as Putin ….
Darran
Now YOU have gone too far........ what a stupid insensitive thing to say!
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It appears Nigel is a popular as Putin ….
Darran
Lol honestly Darren I don’t know what the problem is I said originally that cleaning 15-20 houses a day was hard work for an individual to clean day in day out and it hit a nerve,on top of that paying someone 30% of their daily take was little more than minimum wage and that was it just honesty really nothing sarcastic about that on my part.
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You are an actual rat. You do realise most of the guys on this forum have you blocked and can't even see your posts. Maybe its time i did the same. You don't add anything positive or of value to this forum. Just to this thread alone, i read through every single one of your comments and honestly i didn't even bother to reply because you are delusional and i can't believe or trust in most of what you say. Does it not bother you that literally almost everyone on this forum has a problem with you? You must be great fun at parties. Oh wait, what's that? You don't have any friends to begin with....
Yeah i know there's alot of banter on this forum, but this is different now it's gone too far.
If ever mods could abuse their power on a forum and ban someone just for pi55ing other forum members off, you'd be getting sent straight to Narnia mate, in the bin, take the trash out on your way there.
Mods i'm sorry if this comment is over the top but i've just had enough of him bringing the energy down on all the posts.
I stopped regularly posting and interacting on this forum about a year ago because of how negative it was and just recently started coming on here again, but honestly its making me want to leave again.
i just cba........
Chill out mate, it’s just a forum; no need to get hysterical.
The lack of self awareness, and the fact that he still thinks people believe the BS make Nigel funny really ;D
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Do you employ many NWH?
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Why do people get so wound up? NWH is a character. Nutty as a fruitcake mind, but he’s not Putin.
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You can’t give an honest opinion Stoots you are better off not only on here but in life in general appearing to be struggling or being a couple of pegs down the ladder on others so to speak,I got out of my car with the Mrs last weekend a beautiful day it was only for a seemingly ok chap to utter the words Pr**k to me indirectly lol,that’s ok I don’t mind that at all it just keeps reassuring me that I’m winning 👌.
You are an actual rat. You do realise most of the guys on this forum have you blocked and can't even see your posts. Maybe its time i did the same. You don't add anything positive or of value to this forum. Just to this thread alone, i read through every single one of your comments and honestly i didn't even bother to reply because you are delusional and i can't believe or trust in most of what you say. Does it not bother you that literally almost everyone on this forum has a problem with you? You must be great fun at parties. Oh wait, what's that? You don't have any friends to begin with....
Yeah i know there's alot of banter on this forum, but this is different now it's gone too far.
If ever mods could abuse their power on a forum and ban someone just for pi55ing other forum members off, you'd be getting sent straight to Narnia mate, in the bin, take the trash out on your way there.
Mods i'm sorry if this comment is over the top but i've just had enough of him bringing the energy down on all the posts.
I stopped regularly posting and interacting on this forum about a year ago because of how negative it was and just recently started coming on here again, but honestly its making me want to leave again.
i just cba........
Just block his posts … it’s very satisfying ;D
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Why do people get so wound up? NWH is a character. Nutty as a fruitcake mind, but he’s not Putin.
Not much of a bar.
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Why do people get so wound up? NWH is a character. Nutty as a fruitcake mind, but he’s not Putin.
Not much of a bar.
🤣
Yeh. He’s definitely better than Putin 🤣🤣
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It appears Nigel is a popular as Putin ….
Darran
Lol honestly Darren I don’t know what the problem is I said originally that cleaning 15-20 houses a day was hard work for an individual to clean day in day out and it hit a nerve,on top of that paying someone 30% of their daily take was little more than minimum wage and that was it just honesty really nothing sarcastic about that on my part.
Why do you keep ignoring the questions , put up some pictures of the properties you clean along with staff and van pictures it would make you a lot more credible?? What have you to loose ???
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Ok I’ll take a selection over the course of next week or so I won’t be able to post pictures of some properties for obvious reasons but I’ll try and include certain parts,I’ll next a very big wide angled lense though Splash as I only do big properties yeah lol 😉.
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I have a van that is 13 years old I’m currently looking at another new one as you’ll know it’s a ball ache having to get everything fitted etc I’m looking in to where to go somewhere that’s closer to me though sometime this year,I’ve just changed the car if you’d like a few pics of that too.
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I have a van that is 13 years old I’m currently looking at another new one as you’ll know it’s a ball ache having to get everything fitted etc I’m looking in to where to go somewhere that’s closer to me though sometime this year,I’ve just changed the car if you’d like a few pics of that too.
That’s more like it
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646514182_nhw.jpg)
It appears Nigel is a popular as Putin ….
Darran
Lol honestly Darren I don’t know what the problem is I said originally that cleaning 15-20 houses a day was hard work for an individual to clean day in day out and it hit a nerve,on top of that paying someone 30% of their daily take was little more than minimum wage and that was it just honesty really nothing sarcastic about that on my part.
Why do you keep ignoring the questions , put up some pictures of the properties you clean along with staff and van pictures it would make you a lot more credible?? What have you to loose ???
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646514204_nhw chat.jpg)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646514221_nhw commercial.jpg)
I got these off a certain members website, it may put a few suspicions to rest.
The top one is some of the staff, there were a few off from lack of sleep after a mad weekend (it was a monday when the photo was taken.) The question was " Who would love a c**k as big as the boss's raise ya hand?"
Second one is a typical detached, his mate does some really big ones.(but under prices 'em)
The last photo is a local corner shop, the works ok but takes them 3 days to settle the account so thinking of sacking 'em off.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646514182_nhw.jpg)It appears Nigel is a popular as Putin ….
Darran
Lol honestly Darren I don’t know what the problem is I said originally that cleaning 15-20 houses a day was hard work for an individual to clean day in day out and it hit a nerve,on top of that paying someone 30% of their daily take was little more than minimum wage and that was it just honesty really nothing sarcastic about that on my part.
Why do you keep ignoring the questions , put up some pictures of the properties you clean along with staff and van pictures it would make you a lot more credible?? What have you to loose ???
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646514204_nhw chat.jpg)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646514221_nhw commercial.jpg)
I got these off a certain members website, it may put a few suspicions to rest.
The top one is some of the staff, there were a few off from lack of sleep after a mad weekend (it was a monday when the photo was taken.) The question was " Who would love a c**k as big as the boss's raise ya hand?"
Second one is a typical detached, his mate does some really big ones.(but under prices 'em)
The last photo is a local corner shop, the works ok but takes them 3 days to settle the account so thinking of sacking 'em off.
Lol obviously not NWH he wouldn’t get all those staff in his one van 😂😂😂😂😂😂
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Now surely the above post was something similar to what I was accused of as doing and received a lengthy ban for 🤣 so cheers for that Lee,do you want me to post a couple of pics of the car Splash.
Don’t worry I’ll post a couple of pics of me old 3 bed semis 🙄 just for you lol.
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I’m seriously thinking of getting 8-10 staff I’ve had a think about it I want to be netting somewhere in the region of 120k before Rishi,honestly lads go out and find a rich woman it’s a lot less hassle and stress 🤣🤣.
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Now surely the above post was something similar to what I was accused of as doing and received a lengthy ban for 🤣 so cheers for that Lee,do you want me to post a couple of pics of the car Splash.
Don’t worry I’ll post a couple of pics of me old 3 bed semis 🙄 just for you lol.
Oh this isn't off your website (but you already knew that), this forum isn't just about you ya know ::)roll
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The days of cleaning big office blocks and Nursing homes for a weeks money in a morning are gone I’m afraid you can keep em,time you’ve invoiced em for 4-5 grand and taken you’re costs out for all those bods that have grafted on it and Rishis had his half you wouldn’t get 2 nights in the Shard out of it 🤣🤣
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I’m seriously thinking of getting 8-10 staff I’ve had a think about it I want to be netting somewhere in the region of 120k before Rishi,honestly lads go out and find a rich woman it’s a lot less hassle and stress 🤣🤣.
Lol you don’t need 8-10 staff to do 120 k 😂😂😂
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The days of cleaning big office blocks and Nursing homes for a weeks money in a morning are gone I’m afraid you can keep em,time you’ve invoiced em for 4-5 grand and taken you’re costs out for all those bods that have grafted on it and Rishis had his half you wouldn’t get 2 nights in the Shard out of it 🤣🤣
They might be for you but it’s still possible with the right jobs
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I have a van that is 13 years old I’m currently looking at another new one as you’ll know it’s a ball ache having to get everything fitted etc I’m looking in to where to go somewhere that’s closer to me though sometime this year,I’ve just changed the car if you’d like a few pics of that too.
Aye put a picture of yer car up Nigel, RS4 is it? You have to be doing something right to have one of those eh😉
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I’ll pop one up later today m8
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Exciting ….
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Exciting ….
Just got to find an RS4 to take a picture of 😂😂
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I’ll pop one up later today m8
Drums fingers ... ;D
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Obviously cannot find one 😂😂😂😂😂😂
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where's the car ;D
Darran
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where's the car ;D
Darran
Probably cannot download any pictures from auto trader 😂😂😂😂😂
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It's never gonna happen..... ::)roll
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It's never gonna happen..... ::)roll
Then in my books if he cannot come up with some proof of what he has said about the car and the jobs he does he should be permanently banned as you cannot believe a word he says , so he cannot be taken seriously about anything.
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It's never gonna happen..... ::)roll
Then in my books if he cannot come up with some proof of what he has said about the car and the jobs he does he should be permanently banned as you cannot believe a word he says , so he cannot be taken seriously about anything.
ive never taken Nigel seriously ;D
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you only need to read this thread -
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=222025.msg2088497#new
to see the very best in this forum - and the very worst...
Darran
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Don’t worry I’ll post a couple lol the picture size wouldn’t go yesterday,went for a lovely walk yesterday took a couple of pics REST OF RUBBISH MODDED.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646672205_FBD819F2-580E-4FF4-AF42-DDB294CBD7E4.jpeg)
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646672341_87ABF672-8315-4F2B-9270-2979779FB0A5.jpeg)
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646672341_87ABF672-8315-4F2B-9270-2979779FB0A5.jpeg)
Yehhhhhhh that’s more like it , just a few mansions to go 😂😂👍
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Hey c’mon I haven’t got time for that I’ve got 4 days left this week that means you want about 120 pictures of all those jobs I’ve got to clean 🤣🤣
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Bit confused, is this pic a random car you found that you would like to own???
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🤣🤣 dear me m8
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I thought you were a windowcleaner not a hairdresser?
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Yeah I wondered when that was coming lol it’s a bit better than a hairdressers car m8 you’ve been listening to people that own Golf Rs.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646675356_13C74242-8D7B-44F6-8D8E-E616DE68C6B3.jpeg)
Looking a bit chubby in that reflection Nigel, you need to join Daz’s Gym.
Is that outside your unit?
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Thought it was an RS4 you had?
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You’ve been banging on about your new RS4 for over a year now, and you put a pic up of a TTRS. Make your mind up. ???
Imagine being sad enough that you feel the need to lie to strangers on an Internet forum ;D
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Thought it was an RS4 you had?
He doesn’t know the difference 😂😂😂 still a nice car though
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When did I say I had an RS4 I said I have an Audi RS
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I test drove an RS4 the turn in was nothing like the same it was boaty 🚤 compared I test drove all of the range.
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Nice motor that to be fair.
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I just remember you waxing lyrical about the RS4 so presumed that is what you got when you said you had an Audi RS. Braw motor in any case👍
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The only cars I buy these days are toy ones for the kids - and I still need to clean a fair few mansions to be able to afford those
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So to sumerise NWH drives an Audi and a 14 year old van , doesn't employ so he's a sole trader and he's a domestic residential window cleaner a trade which has been passed down to him from his father. Nothing wrong with that.
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Passed down by his father yeah when we first started we were finished by 11 o’clock back in the early 90s lol,the windows were cash for 🍺.
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The van does it’s job at the moment it’s a work horse 🐎 like me lol.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646937441_A2AEAF4F-EC65-4C77-A83B-5D2233A2E046.jpeg)
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646937557_6954B4D1-E0FC-4817-9188-CF30CF9F8BB5.jpeg)
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646937605_E0E4CA23-70F8-4663-8F09-0C72A68CAB25.jpeg)
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How much do you charge for roofs like this I do a few like this for free while I’m up there.
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How much do you charge for roofs like this I do a few like this for free while I’m up there.
If it was every time it's 10 minutes work. About £20-£30. Access from the looks narrow though and not safe for an employer.....
So I'd send an employee. ;D
Joke obvs before Smudger starts. ;)
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;D
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Yeah it takes literally 10 minutes to clean it nothing in the grand scheme of things.
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Yeah it takes literally 10 minutes to clean it nothing in the grand scheme of things.
I have literally dozens of houses that only take 10 minutes. I just do 'em for free.
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I do the odd one only I’m getting very good money for the house I don’t
Mind giving them 10 minutes of my time.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1646937605_E0E4CA23-70F8-4663-8F09-0C72A68CAB25.jpeg)
Yep I do a few glass roofs like that every window clean....10 min job....its priced into the job from the start...